#47. Shaun Tang: The Art of Nothing
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. And if you've been enjoying the show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe.

We got a really cool guest today. He is a third generation master of the gu qing, which is a traditional musical instrument of ancient China. It's a highly regarded symbol of Chinese culture. And what it is, is it's a beautifully crafted long piece of wood with seven strings that run lengthwise along the top of it. And you lay it flat horizontally when you play it.

It's really beautiful. It was one of the favorite instruments for sages and scholars of ancient China. And based on historical record, Confucius was a master of this instrument as well.

Our guest, he is very passionate about the gu qing. He has students he teaches. He uses the instrument as a means to kind of meditate. So the whole experience is really philosophical in nature. And that's what we talk about today. We get into a lot of the philosophical teachings of ancient China and how to apply these philosophies in our modern lives to help us. So we talk a lot about the yin and the yang, Taoism, nature, and a bunch of other stuff I'm still trying to wrap my head around.

We do speak quite a bit of Chinese in this episode, so it might be tough for English-speaking listeners to follow along, but please try. It was a fascinating conversation, and we got to see a little performance of the Gu Qing at the end. So, without further ado, please give it up for Sean Tang.

Welcome, welcome.

That's nice. It is very nice. Oh, I've never sipped Bushmills before. Me neither. That was the first time. Bushmills, 16 years. 16 years. That's a very nice flavor. Yeah. I always thought it was like the first whiskey flavor.

I mean, before there's a lot of distillery, right? But for the Bushmills, with the license, this is the first one. In the world? In the world. Like ever? Ever. So Bushmills is the oldest whiskey distillery in the world? Yes. Really? This is a fact? Yes. 1608. So in Chinese we call it the middle age of...

A mean dynasty. It's very, very long ago. 400 years ago. Wow. It does say 1608 on the bottle. Wow. He's not lying. If he had said 1609, he would have damaged his credibility. Yep. So they are the first distillery to use the pot of stew so that they have this trademark here. To use the what? The pot of stew. The pot of stew. This one. Oh. Oh. Oh.

It does have a very distinct flavor, I feel. If you did a blind test and drank this, you would be able to identify it's Bushmills. Yes, definitely you can just know it's Bushmills. Yeah, it has this very distinct kind of like old feeling of like heritage. I feel like it's your own. It's like rich mahogany. You know what I mean? Like I'm doing like Ron Burgundy here. But no, it's fucking really good. That's good, right? You know, my mom has a bottle of Bushmills.

from 1981 like just sitting there it's like the packaging is like all old and shit like that I mean I don't know if it's a good bottle but it's still so it's still there yeah it's just literally from 1981 never opened just sitting there we gotta break it out sometime I don't know what it tastes like though yeah I want to know as well for us which is like before which is the original black 10 years old 16 and a 21 but 16 years old is my favorite

It's really good. Totally good, right? I'm surprised. It's really, really good. Sean, why don't you drink with ice? Tell us the story behind that. Because basically, I think the good whiskey, we just try to enjoy them all, right? Because the temperature, if it's low, if it's cold, of course, it's a good part. It's just like get rid of some bad flavors. That's why some normal or...

Not ultra-premium whiskey we use ice to drink with. So lower quality whiskey it's better to use ice because it can cover up some of the bad. Yeah, but if it's great if it's good it definitely just for me it definitely just zip it straight no rock.

So you can just enjoy them all. No rock. That's true though. What have we been doing for like 49 shows? We've been drinking some really nice whiskeys too. More ice, more ice.

But on the other side, it's like the rock is good because sometimes people notice the difference between the, you know, with the different water, with the different temperature, it changes, right? It changes the taste. Yeah. And some people like the taste of it. It opens up a different type of flavor. So when the ice like melt, so the water is more, right? So mix, the flavor mixed with water will be changed.

But the people, the real whiskey lovers, they know how much water put it in, melted it in, will be great. So they just find this time, drink them all.

And it's kind of a play, you know, it's like drink with ice, with the rock just melting, just zip, zip, zip, just find out when will be the greatest time to drink it. Sip, sip, sip, and then like, why don't you have a drink? So, Sean, well, the reason why we are drinking Bushmills at all today is because you said that, Sean, you said the Bushmills you felt pairs best with the Guqing. Yeah. Right? Yes. Why is that?

Firstly, I just said Bushmills was founded in 1608. This is the middle of Ming Dynasty. It's the May-Gu Qing academic.

It's created very close to the time of this one. This is one. Also, in the middle of this Gu Qing academic, Gu Qing's sect. It's created very close to. So this brand, you said this Gu Qing's brand. Sect. So the art of Gu Qing was created around? It doesn't go longer than that? Okay, for Gu Qing, we have different sects.

In English we translate it into academic Oh, the school 你可以讲中文 就是这个风格的 对 这个 style of 这个门派 Just like 少林武当 Right? Different 那个 painting 也有这样子的 The school of Right? The Leonardo da Vinci school of blah blah blah I'm confused Was there Gu Qing before this time?

What did you say? So I'm a little confused as to what minpai is. You said it's academic, but so does that mean before 16, around 1600, there was not this style of guqin, is it? Again, it's a long story. Because guqin is created like two or three thousand years ago. With the time going on, different kind of style is coming up, right?

My man pack, what a man pack is kind of one of the most famous one is created by Yantian Chi who used to the chef, the head of the whole province or something. Then he quit this job and he loves guqin. So he created a new style of guqin. The style of this guqin is we call it four words, it's qing, wei, dan, yuan. Qing is more like light. So Bushmallow is light.

微 means subtle, small changes, but it changes a lot. Subtle. 淡 is also it's not very strong, very ambitious, right? 清淡的淡吗? 清淡的淡。 软, long-tasted.

So basically, it's very similar to the Bushmills. So that's why I said Bushmills matches guqin the best. Wow. Okay. So the flavor and the profile of Bushmills is really equal to all the kind of...

the characteristics of this guqin. Yes. Right? That's the thing. So what is the, what's the English word for guqin? Do you know? Guqin. Is it guqin? Maybe just guqin or seven strings? It's not called like the mandolin or something? Is that a different instrument? I think it's different. Yeah, it's a whole different instrument, right? Sometimes we say the seven strings.

Because we have seven strings here. So if you're just listening and you're not watching the video, the gu qing is this long piece of wood, beautifully cut and furnished with seven strings laying horizontally across you. So in a more crude way, it's like a guitar, but on its side, if you can imagine that. Laying on a table. Laying on the table. But it's just this one piece of wood. It looks beautiful.

And this is one of the more traditional Chinese instruments, right? Yeah, for us, we don't regard guqin as a music instrument. So the difference between the music instrument is like, there's a conception of guqin, it's like, it's the thing you entertain yourself. Guqin is not supposed to do entertainment to the others. So...

Let's say whatever it's perform or it's a bargaining or if it's just giving up a speech, what you are doing is just trying to impress people, right? Try to convince people. So basically, it's you consume your energy, affect people to influence people. So basically, that's even the music, same thing. You try to make people feel good, like it, right? But guqin is no. Guqin is something just like your entertainment yourself. It's the way...

You communicate with yourself. You talk to yourself. You try to listen to how you feel, who you are. That's the thing. So that's why we don't think guqin is kind of just like music instrument. It's the way to practice, to meditation, to find out who you are or try to manage yourself. And for my master or my teacher,

So basically there's two kind of rules. One is you are not supposed to make a living on it.

Just like a lot of art people, they make a living on it. But we are not supposed to do that. That would be very, that's like almost against the rules to make a living off of the guqin. Yes. Of course, I still can't just like teaching. I still can't make money. But it's not the main income. Right? Because if you make a living on it, change the things. So your attitude changes.

The way how you think about these things changed. You can't use it for profit. Yes. Yes. Then again, just like we are not supposed to amuse people with guqin. Guqin is not the thing you entertain people. It's the way you... When you play just because you want to play. It's not because some people want to listen, just play. There's a very, very famous, how to say, qianbei, or...

Zhang Ziqian, his man is Guangling 派, we are Yushan 派. We are Yushan 派, he is Guangling 派. Have a couple of words, just like he said. Before 40 years old, he wanted more people like, enjoy his music. When he like 50 or 60, he didn't care. He just wanted some like old friends who understand his music. When he reached like 70 years old, he didn't care.

古琴 is not a music he play to some people. He just enjoy by himself. So that's the reason we don't regard 古琴 as just like music instrument. But is that general? Like in all different 不同的門派,都是這樣子的嗎? Or is it...

It used to be, you know, it used to be, but now it's modern time. You will see more and more schools open, more and more people just make a living. And we have a subject in music, like English, right? So people just like educated with it, living on it. But for our heritage, we're not supposed to do that. You are not supposed to think about how to profit from it.

So two things while I'm listening to you talk have just become very clear to me that I was confused about before. Number one, the minpai is more like Chinese Kung Fu where there's different schools of Kung Fu and

They have different beliefs on how to train people, how to do it, right? They have different systems. And sometimes these different schools can be rivals, right? Sometimes they don't agree with each other. All the time, man. Really, even with coaching. All the time. So it gets really heated between schools with coaching. That is hilarious. That is so fascinating. Another thing is now it makes sense because when I was talking to you before on the phone,

Now I understand why you were so hesitant to bring the guqin onto the podcast. Because you're saying that it's not a performance instrument. You shouldn't have an audience there. It's not to entertain others. It's more of a very personal, spiritual thing for your own kind of self-development, your

Like you said, it's like meditation through an instrument. It's not to show off. It's not to, yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I'm really glad you brought the guqin so we can all see it. And I think it helps having the instrument here as you're explaining it, right? So we can kind of really understand about it. And, you know, I think, you know, one of the reasons why I was very excited to talk to you, Sean, is because you were kind of, in our brief conversation, you were describing the guqin as something

this deeper sense of like culture and how you apply it to yourself and how it can actually there are like real ways that it can improve you yeah on a day-to-day basis right we're not just talking about like philosophical bigger broader themes we're talking about like real everyday things that you can learn through i guess the philosophy of of guqin yeah um i think just

Whatever is Chinese or expats, the philosophy is something started with who you are, what you want to do, how do you change the world or adapt to the world. Basically, it's all the same thing. For Chinese culture, for me, it started with before the Qing Dynasty. That's something people try to figure out in the wartime, how you survive, how you change the world, all the things. What year was the Qing Dynasty? Well, not year, but what era? In Chinese, we call it Xianqin.

Like a Chunqiu Zhang Guo. Qin is the first emperor in Chinese culture, right? Qin Shi Huang. Qin Shi Huang, yes. This is the first emperor. So before the emperor, there's so many countries. So that was in the BC times, right? Yes, yes. So that's the philosopher. They try to find a way to change the world to prove what they believe. So in that time, there's so many different 门派 .

Okay? 兵家 is just like try to use in the military way to change the world. Right? Like 道家, we know that it's Taoism, right? Taoist. 儒家, Confucius. 醫家, the people who treat people, just like cured people, like a doctor. 農家, farm. So they try to find a way how to plant

in the proper way to contribute more food to make people just like survive. So there's like, we call it like hundreds kinds of

they find their own way to change the world. - Their own philosophy. - Yes, so that's what we call philosophy. So for me, Chinese culture is something we try to use. We try to help people, or try to understand ourselves, try to make things better. This is the culture. Culture is not just like how you eat, how you dress up, it's much more than that, much more than that. So the thing is, when we talk about Chinese culture,

You asked me the question, right? For the youngest young people, how do you think about Chinese culture? Whether it's something... Yeah, I was asking, do you feel like the young generation now have kind of misunderstood their own culture in terms of the more ancient teachings and the tradition? And it's very misunderstood nowadays. Like you never hear about Gu Qing now and...

Yeah, but we say, there's a word we always say, which means just like thousands of ways you find your own way. Just like it fits you. It's right. But just like you will find your own way to do it. Some people is really succeeding in some way, but it doesn't mean it's your way. Sometimes you just try to go somewhere you want to achieve, you want to prove, you want to do something, right? To do something you mean to be.

To be someone you mean to be. But things are just like, you don't know where it is. You need to find your own way. Some of the people who is senior to you, elder than you, experience more than you. They will show their success to you. They will show some picture from their journey. But it's just like show to you. It doesn't mean it's yours.

So sometimes we say, we don't know where we should go, but we should, but we know. Our journey starts under my foot. 这里有个说法吗? In Chinese we just say, 大到三千只取一票,不知道在何方。

却知道在脚下 That's the Chinese way. I don't know where that... Sometimes it's... Yeah, say that in English now. Yeah, it's fine. But you can find it. You can do some subtitle to make it better, right? But this is my understanding. So for 古琴 or whatever it's 古琴, you know, I play 魔莲古琴, I play 古琴, I play 太极, I play Game of Ghosts.

Game of Goat? Game of Thrones? Goat. Oh, Goat. Game of Goat. Just black and white. So Game of Goat. Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones. Yeah, I love this one. Yeah, I play a lot. But this is something. Hey, Goat is a Chinese game? Yeah. Everything is from China. Come on. What the fuck? So wait, Sean, you mentioned this. I was just looking this up and

It sounds like your... Your manpai is...

very well known. So when I typed in just a few words immediately, like I Googled it, right? Yup. And immediately it came up. Um, and then, you know, Ching way, Dan, Dan, you know, like we're, I'm still trying to catch up to the earlier part of the conversation. Can you share a little bit about what that means and sort of like how that represents your school's way of trying to change the world? Cause I think this whole notion of changing the world is really interesting. We have, um,

We have political parties in the U.S. or things like that. And, you know, I guess they're trying to make change. But like this notion of trying to change the world and like even thousands of years ago, that's pretty deep to me. Actually, it's, how to say, created style, created by Mr. Yan Tianchi, right? Mm-hmm.

The reason he tried to promote this idea is because at that moment, all the people were using the guqin to entertain people. In Chinese, there's a word we call it "tun mei su". Mei su is beautiful, of course, good listening, but people just enjoy with like a luxury life.

Something like that. But for the very beginning, gu qing is some kind of way people practice themselves to achieve a kind of level of junzi. But junzi, maybe we can translate to gentleman, but actually not. It's ideal level of... Higher level. Higher level of what? Being. Of being. Of like your philosophy on how to be a good person. Be a good person, be a...

be a, how to say, ideally perfect person. So you just do the right things. So that's the way we practice ourselves. Just like Kong Zi play Gu Qing, right? So that's the way you enhance yourself. So Gu Qing is the way you enhance yourself. It's not the way to entertain people. So did something happen? Because like you mentioned Gu Qing before,

was invented thousands of years ago. And so, and then there's like hundreds of schools. So did it get to a point where people started using it more for external purposes and entertaining and try to like maybe show off? And then people rebelled against that and said, no, this is not the purpose. Is that what happened? That's just...

before basically the people play guqin is like shizu I don't know how to say shizu in English it's okay yeah shizu so it's the way it's part of the way you you you you you you has your quality but then from time being from time going on then it's the way to amuse the uh

the officers, the noble people to become of the... You make a living on it, basically. It's not as pure anymore. It's like pop music, right? Some people are like, no, it's like you're making pop music. You're just making this music to sell records. Then the sound of the music, the music of the guqin changed. Just like make people feel...

you know, attractive, sexy. But the actual music just like actually changed the way of playing and melody. The technique of playing. The technique. And in Chinese, we always say xingfa, right? Xingfa is how you think about it, how you understand it. For example, we say there's a famous guqin music called Ping Sha Luo Yan. So, 北派和南派, their way to think is different. For example, 北派 think,

In Chinese we call it just 人觀大宴細品沙 which means that I'm enjoying the

How to say "da yan"? It's kind of a bird, just "da yan" is kind of, I don't know how to say in English. - Yeah, our Chinese is not very good, so. - Just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just,

So we're looking at pictures of like goose. Yeah, that's kind of goose. Is it like a crane? Okay. Swallow? I don't know. But the Southern, just Nanpai, the understanding of this music is like, which means I am the crane. I'm the bird. Just like, but I'm alone. I'm flying over the desert. I have nowhere to go. I'm trapped.

but same kind of music, but different kind of way to understand it. That's what we call the xingfa. So even the same music, how you think about it, how you understand it, make a very big difference. So that's, I say, um, xingfa butong, so it changed a lot. Interesting. So Sean, let me ask you, um, with so many years of playing the guqin and everything, like how has it, um, affected you personally? Um,

Basically, I'm learning something from Gu Qing. So sometimes we have to play like 10 minutes music, right? And when I play it, I feel that sometimes my energy is not good enough. It's not enough because it's too long. Even my students feel the same way. So I need to learn how to breathe in, breathe out in the proper way. And I need to learn, even my fingers move very fast. I need to keep my heart quiet.

And just like there's so many changes or so many philosophy inside it. We call it it's yin and yang, shu and shi, kua and man, jin and tui. You need to know when

我说中文可能会更好一点。 But like the yin and the yang of everything. 你可以说中文。 我会稍微总结一点,就是说古琴有 64 种变化, 每一种变化都是相对的。 有阴和阳,这是一变。 快慢,一变。 进退,一变。 刚柔,一变。 虚实,一变。 You need to find a way to manage it in a proper way.

所以对我来说,古琴它不只是说是弹音乐,它是教我怎么去做项目。 So that's like a philosophy. It's not like... Yeah, that's what really fascinated me, because I had no idea, you know, first. And then when he started explaining this earlier, I was like, whoa, okay, we need to try to get this across. Because on the show, we're always about...

different forms of self-improvement. And we talk about mental health, we talk about physical health. But this is more, this is different than I think a lot of things we talk about. This is more about like how we apply our, how culture can affect like our philosophical beliefs and how that affects us morally, I think as people and how to live and how to treat other people. - Yes.

But how has your life changed in terms of you think you as a person through learning this art, through your school and your philosophy of the skuching? - For example, let's say we wanna do something, right? Just like you guys wanna do this project. Firstly, when I wanna do it, that's,

Wu Zhong Shen You is from nothing to something happened. So when you face this issue, there's two kind of way. You may face it, you may just drop it, right? But when you start to do some project, there's so many way to start. Can start slow, can start quick.

Can start with you invest a lot on it or start with you try something, see how it happens. Or do you even start at all? Some people don't even start. Yeah. And you can start with like with people or you start to want to do by yourself alone. So just like a play gu qing. So that's what we call a shu and a shi. In Chinese, there's a kind of conception called wu shu and wu shi.

I have no idea whether you guys just heard about it. 务虚 and 务实. 务实 is much easier to understand. 务实 is something just do things like fixed, do something properly, just do something. It's really just do. But 务实, it's about just like you find a way whether it works for people. Maybe it's not a promise, but it's kind of a try. You find whether people like it, you find out whether it works, but that's all called 务实.

What are the two that you just mentioned? Can you... Wu Xu and Wu Shi. Wu Xu, Wu Shi. But how does the Gu Qing help in this regard? Same thing. Just like every time we play Gu Qing is totally different. I can start with, just like I say, when I play it, I can start with quick. I can start with slow. I can start with low voice. I can start with the high voice.

I can start it in the way I want to be and make it happen. So it's the way I can choose according to my mood, according to whether I'm tired or not, according to whether I'm happy or I'm kind of anxiety. I'm just using the proper way to play the guqin. So which means when I do the project, I can choose how to start, how fast it is, whether it's just like trying,

to find it works or not, or whether it's just something I want to do it. So I like your project a lot because it could be between shi and shi, you know? So if it works, just like I play chess, if it works, I invest more. I do more. If it doesn't work, I just have fun. It doesn't influence me a lot, right? Same thing, when I communicate with Chinese people, it happens just like you promised you didn't make it.

Just Chinese people make the promise according to the situation. It could be wu xu. A lot of conditions can be the points whether it's like from shu to shi. And I can choose it from shu to shu. And I can choose from shu to shu. What is shu shi? Let's say when you're standing with one foot, people push you down, right? But if you have two feet standing, maybe you're

a hater weight. Maybe you're just standing on one foot. So when people push you on another foot, it's fine. It doesn't influence you. Right? But which leg you are standing on, you can change. So that's called Xu and Shi. So is it kind of like learning to adapt and be flexible?

according to different situations, and it's not just being solid in one way. Almost like the philosophy of being like water, right? Yes. And on the other hand, when you say adapt, it means you are adapted to it. But this idea, if you understand, you can choose to be, not adapt to be. 所以不是被动是主动的。

So proactive versus being reactive. This is really fascinating. This is deep. It's deep and it's fascinating because like we're trying to kind of get past some of our language sort of like challenges. But you mentioned that, you know, when you play, there's like the 64 pairs of like, you know, starting a piece or something like that, right? And so is that like a metaphor for what you can do in life? Yeah.

And then that's the Xu and the... Xu and the Xu. Okay. Yeah. So like Justin mentioned earlier, like on the show, we... One of the reasons we started the show is that, you know, we were at the point in our lives where we feel like we want to build better habits and we want to improve ourselves. Right? And...

you know, like in this Western culture, it's kind of like always like, how can I get better and better and faster and more efficient?

but it's like one direction only. It's just like going hard, right? It's just like Michael Jordan, like, you know, just keep pushing forward, keep pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing. And then you mentioned something really interesting. I wanted to kind of learn, like understand a little bit more what you were trying to say. You said that like sometimes like we make, or Chinese people make promises with due to the situation. Yeah. Right. And so,

I think that like, that's really interesting because then the outcome can be different based on the situation where in Western culture, it's probably more fixed. It's like, it's always going to be, and it's less flexible. Can you share a little bit more about kind of what you were trying to say there? Okay. This is very Taoism philosophy. Taoism? Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Taoism. Tao

That's just like, let's say this cup. That's "you" and the "you". "You" is something just there. You can see, you can copy, you can analyze, right? Just like the cup, the glasses, that's "you", right? - Like "you", what do you mean? Like what kind of "you"? Like "you" as "you" in "mail". - Oh, okay.

你想太多了。 No, I mean, no, no, it's not. Actually, Sean, the reason we say that is because the three of us, we only know like two 有 s, like 朋友 and like 没有, that's it. That's 没有的有, right? That's the 有. Just want to make sure. The opposite of 有 is 无, basically it's nothing. It's not that, right? I thought it was 没有. Okay, think about it. Think about it. Okay, this house, the brick is 有, the space is 无,

But people pay for 五, not pay for 五. Wow. Right? How much money this apartment is worth is based on the space 五, not 五. So it's not based on the physical walls. It's based on the space that the walls surround. Yes. So I say, we have space here. So space becomes 五. The 五 becomes 五.

So in Taoism, we say 有无相生, which means 无 can... Interchangeable. Interchangeable. Wait, hold on. So in Taoism, the space becomes the 有. No, basically what he's saying is it's interchangeable. Okay. It's not fixed. It goes with the situation. Okay. That's what he's trying to say. Okay. So 有, and Justin's like... It's really hard to explain in English, man. It's the Bushmills, okay, Justin? Don't worry, it's the Bushmills. So which means just like...

That's why we, Tyson, we say you and Wu, we always put together. So the brick is you, the space is Wu. But you pay for Wu because space is valuable. But without bricks, without war, the space means nothing. So we call it you, Wu, Xiang Shen, which means you and Wu support each other, turn to each other, change to each other, evaluate to each other.

So you have to have "you" and you have to "wú". So all the like westernized education for me is teach you how to be "you", teach you how to do things. But for the Taizen, for my education, I need to learn how to do nothing. I need to learn how to behave "wú". If there's only "you" and no "wú", then the change is just like limited. If you have a "you" and a "wú", things changed.

So that's very interesting. So what would be, that is very interesting and I'm still trying to like wrap my mind around it. But like, what would be an example of that for you? Right? Because you're saying the you, right? And a lot of the Western ideology and I guess philosophy is about attaining tangible things, right? That's the you. It's all about the you. Tangible things like this wood. But you're saying it's more, it's being able to understand and have a balance of you and you and be able to interchange things.

interchange those two. What would be an example of like the Wu? Is that like kind of moral philosophy? Is that spiritual? Like what is that? Let's put your project as example. Like the podcast? Yes. Okay. If just three of you do things, sharing, talking, contributing to the content, that's you. But you open one seat to invite people.

You spare a space for the resources, the invited people to come in. So the spaces is Wu. So your project is more valuable because you create Wu to bring people in. So that's you and Wu. Can I ask? So Sean, as Justin was asking the question, I was also thinking like in Western culture,

In the Western world, sometimes we are guilty of excess, like too much, right? We want more and more and more and more money or more and more and more friends. Bigger and better. Everything bigger. More and more likes on our social media, et cetera, et cetera, right? And it's like we go for the quantity sometimes, not the quality, right? So this notion of materialism,

多则祸 多则祸

少则得 The more things you have, the less you actually, the less you get from it, right? Which means you have too many choices, means you have no choices. Yeah. You have much things to choose, just too many foods. You just don't have your, you want to eat it.

Because too many changes. The paradox of choice. Yeah. And you know what's fascinating about that is that like, I mean, so Dao Jia, when was that? When did that get sort of discovered? Like thousands of years ago? Yeah, how long does that go back? During the, before Qing Dynasty. Okay. That's part, just one of the Zhu Zi Bai Jia, one of the Zhu Zi Bai Jia. So it's like literally, so there are Chinese philosophers that are having a great life

right? Just chilling somewhere like in the woods and whatever, right? Having a fucking good time writing some books, playing. There's, I think it's called zither, but anyway, zither is like the general class of string instruments. It's a German word, but I think it can also cover the seven string guqing, right? Um,

And then like I've been reading behavioral psychology from the last 20 years in the Western world. Okay, so like xin li xue, like ke xue jia in the West. And basically they're like, yeah, if you put like 10 ice creams in front of someone, they won't be able to choose. But if you put two...

they will be able to choose and everybody's like, whoa. - This is like only like recent. - Wow, sigh, how you'll be a Nobel Prize, right? And then it's like some dude in China already figured it out. - And then there's more to that. It's not just that you will choose.

is that even after you choose, you won't keep regretting, be like, oh, well, what if I chose that other one? Or what if I had gotten the other thing? And then, you know, you keep regretting, oh, the grass is always greener on the other side. And you think about the things you didn't choose and how they might've been better when you have so much choice. You don't have limited choice. You don't have to do it. Yeah, you're not to do it. And the most important thing is you will not cherish it. Just like knowledge. That's right.

If it's knowledge is like limited, you need to fight so much to get educated. You just cherish it like hell. You just want to study, digest as much as you could.

But the information is so shared, the knowledge is so easy to get, people not cherish it. So I'm going to ask you, I'm going to put you on the spot. You know what that means? Put you on the spot just means like, okay, now you said that, then I'll verify it. Okay. So do you use social media? Yeah, I do social media. Oh, you do? Okay. Because just like I said, I have to do social media because social media is a new way to influence people, to make things change.

and adapted by the new generation. This is something coming out. It's new you. I will not just deny the you, right? Something happened and it works. You face it. You learn it. But it doesn't mean you have to give up my gu qing. It doesn't mean you have to give up my spiritual side. That's something...

You just treat it as a, how to say, equal, as a normal. It happens. It's there. But is there a risk? Because part of the problem with too much 又 in the Western world, in America, is that people just get caught up so much with the 又 and then they just don't focus on the 无 and then they get messed up. Their lives get all messed up, right? Are you afraid that you get too caught up in the 又 and then all of a sudden you forget all of your 无 stuff? Honestly, no.

I'm used to be addicted to the social media. I'm affected. Seriously, I just spend a lot of time on the Douyin a lot. Even now, I'm doing it. It's a strong platform. Yeah. Douyin, TikTok. It's a strong one. I cannot just change it. But the thing is, I find out I can get any information I want through Douyin. That's very interesting. Just like...

It's a lot of you. That's a lot of things there, a lot of choices. But I need to know what I want or what can help me or what information I can search for. So I search like a psychology. I search some information like gu qing. I search something I want to learn. Then it's coming up.

So that's the thing there. Just like it's like a fire. It's like a wind. It's like moon. It's like a sunset. It's just there. The thing is how you deal with it.

It's not about the weather. It is. It's like the difference between one person is being very specific with what they're trying to ingest, right? Another person is just... It's like they're sitting there like... Yeah. Well, so how do you keep that balance? Mindless. Because before you were saying when you have too much access and choices, you don't cherish it as much. How do you keep yourself in check in terms of appreciating...

the things you're learning, appreciating information, appreciating the access because in this day and age, online and on social media, like we just, in a second, we have everything, the world is at our fingertips, all the information. - Very interesting things is, you know, Tyson thinks the way the philosophy of Tyson is enhance yourself. Whether you enhance yourself

or you consume yourself, you definitely have the feeling there. Whether you are grow up, whether you are develop, or you just like consume too much so your energy is gone. Every people can feel that, just whether you can sense it or not. So we do everything can make us stronger, be enhanced. That's the way we how we face it. Just like I need to play gu qing. One of the reason is this is

Useless. The reason I play Guqin is because it's useless. So there's words from a very famous artist or a movie star. He said, because it's useless. So can show you can be more.

have no idea how to say that just like more relaxed who you are not be a lighted away you can you can unplug yourself right unplug yourself from the world that's a good one you can plug yourself so i need something to plug myself not being led away because of the uh whatever it is just outside there i see so it's it's very it's a conscious it's almost a conscious effort

to unplug yourself, to keep yourself in check and balance, right? Yeah, I would think so because especially living, because everything you're saying, right, it's all beautiful, but it almost, everything you're saying almost contradicts with like living in like such a big city like Shanghai where everything is about abundance and quality, I mean, quantity and access and, you know, it's all about more and more and it's very capitalistic here. Everyone's competitive, right? Yep.

And so it's like,

it's this constant effort through the gu qing as using gu qing as a means, as a tool to unplug yourself, even if just for a moment, right? Even if just for a short brief of time. - That's true. That's totally. - But many people go through life never even unplugging themselves like even for a minute, right? - Yep. - So that precious time, it can be five minutes, it can be 10 minutes, it can be half an hour, whatever it is. - Yeah. - Whether it's through meditation or maybe exercising or whatever, or music or gu qing,

It's important to have that I guess that outlet. Yes, right Yes, you have to do something spend some time spend some effort to pack yourself Not be led away to unplug yourself, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so So for the culture things is my thing. It's my thing they people knows I'm doing spreads I'm selling alcohol, but they say I'm not like a people who are

is a salesman or a businessman. I don't know. How so? I don't know. Just people don't think I'm a businessman. Just like, because I love this a lot. The way I, when I communicate with people, I'm just telling about the culture all the time. I just love it. Just,

which is part of my life. I think that the typical business man is like just very fast talking. It's just like hustle and bustle, like constantly moving, like aggressive. And he's using this as, you know, as his own thing. Okay. So just kind of like trying to piece some of this together and also for the, um, the, the listeners, right. Who, cause we're jumping around a little bit. So, um,

So you've been very passionate about the guqin. And then you just alluded to the fact that you also, for your job, right? You're in sales, right? How long have you been in sales for? Whole life. We just try to sell ourselves all the time, right? Even you want to, you know, just run after a girl, you sell yourself. Right? Just like sales is part of your life. If you take it just like that.

I say some of the Chinese people or some of the young people just don't think sales is a good job, right? Just feel guilty sometimes. But actually, when you're trying to find a job, when you're trying to convince or build your value in front of girls or build a value in front of your clients, you are a salespeople. You're always just like that. So for me, it's fine. But if you say just salespeople, the technique salespeople,

It's quite a long time. I do my own business before. I have my own company. So I had my own company, I should say. Yeah, just part of the job. Just normal. It's fine. That's why I just try to make a guqin out of it. That's why my manpai don't want a guqin be...

as be ours is like the way to make a living. 'Cause I want to just separate it. - Yeah, so your point on sales, like, I mean, it's interesting 'cause growing up, like in the Western world, you know, everyone always tells you that being able to sell things and influence people is the most important thing, right? The soft skills piece. But I'm curious, like in China,

what is the, what is the sort of like the, like the 典型 or like 标准的 salesperson? And can you kind of compare and contrast like that kind of persona with your persona? Because I can kind of see how your background with, you know, 股清 and all this stuff might make you a different type of salesperson, but perhaps even more effective. So if it's a, it's a typical for salespeople, for Chinese people's thinking, it's just like,

running over the, running after the money. Just try to convince the clients to buy things. Like aggressive? It's aggressive. No matter what. It's just about making the sale. So even in China, like the aggressiveness, it's the same as the West. It's about like, just like type A. Always be closing, right? Always be closing. But I think this is something, this kind of a, how to say, the character I like, okay? I'm not that like a,

typical of salespeople, but I need salespeople work under me. Right? 你不是这样, 但是你的手下, 但我需要这样的人, 下面的人都是这样的。 Right? Just like when you lead a war or lead a military, you need a soldier. Soldier, you need to just, you know, aggressive, like get the things done, right? Just like take over the city, whatever, just like do it. Right? But for us, for me, 嗯,

Sometimes when you accomplish something, it's the time you lose it. What do you mean? When you accomplish something, it's your time to lose it? Let's say you haven't accomplished or you haven't occupied a city, right? So the enemy you face is low level. But if you accomplish some level, you take over some cities, it turns out the bigger, greater, stronger enemies coming to you.

So you just consume, you just use all your energy and power. Wasted it. It's not wasted. It's something you already accomplished. But you spend all your saving, you spend all your time, money, resources to take the city. And now you can't defend yourself. And you are weakened. Yeah. And you are weakened. And then history is full of these types of battles where it wasn't strategic, where like, I went after this. The other...

army that was previously weaker than me pulled they were much more strategic yeah and they waited for me to weaken myself through this spreading myself too thin and in the western culture we call spreading myself too thin like and then all of a sudden this guy comes in and whoops your ass and then takes not only conquers you but takes all your shit too yeah

So that's why I say in Taishan, we prefer Shui Dao Qu Chen. You always just like spare some of your effort, spare your energy as a second hand. You just never just give up all the things. Sometimes you cannot do that, but try to do that. Interesting. I definitely feel that it's a very...

I don't know about Asian, but definitely Chinese thing ever since moving here. It's like when working with people in a business atmosphere or situation, I tend to come in very open. Like I'll talk about things and if we're negotiating on something or whatever, it's like I'm very open. We just talk, talk, talk, even as friends, right? But in general, if you're working with someone that's local, I mean, I don't know about now, but at least back then,

they would be hiding a lot of information. You know what I mean? And it's very, they're very selective. They're all Taoists, dude. Yeah, they're very selective of what they say to you. Yep. You know what I mean? They don't want to give away the house too quick. Exactly. They don't want to show their cards, right? No, of course not. You always keep the cards in your sleeve all the time. That's what my mom told me yesterday.

Like literally, like honestly, my mom told me yesterday, you got to keep some cards in your sleeve. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's been telling me that for the last like, you know. But that's through like, but that's from like an information and like strategic standpoint. But you're also saying that in terms of energy, like your own energy, don't like, don't just like throw all your energy in one shot.

But that's very different than how we were raised in the West, thinking about just go all out, give it 110%. It's just about pedal to the metal and just go as hard as you can, try to work as hard as you possibly can, give it everything, throw everything at it right from the get-go. Otherwise, you'll never have a chance of success.

So it's kind of different what you're saying is that it's not about, it's almost like running a marathon. It's about saving your energy, managing your energy instead of just throwing everything you have at this project right from the get-go. Just as I say, two-step consumption is also fine, right? Both ways can work. It also works. Just like I said, if you're standing, if you just only have your one foot standing,

You have to standing as tight as much, as strong as much. You have to just standing there. You have nothing to... To support, balance yourself with. Yes, you have to do that. Then if you can make it, you are the best, right? But you have to fit. You have more choices. Then you have Xu and Shi. It's all about like... But on the other hand, it's like the people standing stronger may be the best of it. But most of the people are not the best. You die in the middle. You die...

how to say, in the middle of the mountain, not other people can climb in the top of the mountain. - Yeah, so what you're saying is like, to make it on one leg, like you can, but you have to be like the strongest. - The strongest one. - And the strongest people can and often do make it on that one leg. But for people who are not as strong, they can stand on two legs and sometimes get just as far.

Right? Yes. As the stronger people. And another thing is as a businessman, as a owner, sometimes you have nothing to choose. You have to all in sometimes. You have to bet. All the winners, they just win when they bet. Right? But it's just...

Not only just ability, it's about the lucky sometimes. Gambling. It's gambling. So as a boss... You don't win big unless you bet big. Yeah. So as a boss, so I actually watched your part for the boxing cat, right? He is lucky. You have to say just like, I prefer lucky damn good, right? It's lucky. But sometimes I don't think I'm...

lucky enough. Right? So we choose, that's the good part for Chinese culture. Just like yin and yang, xuan and shi. I can choose to be yin and yang and xuan and shi. It's not I'm adapted. I can choose to be. So I can choose to be a boss who bear everything, all yin, strike like a hell, bet everything all yin. I might win, I might lose, but it's okay. It's my choice.

Or I can choose to be a supporter. I can choose to be vice. I can choose to be some people as a part of the team. You can choose. So in Chinese, we got 君臣之道. So in Classical Change, we have 錢道. We have 坤道. 錢大在前緣。 天行劍。 君子以自強不息。 That's the philosophy as a king. You have nothing. You cannot just behave like a king.

Like a, like a, uh, Chenzi, right? How do you say Chenzi? Like a, not a peasant, but like, like a normal person, like a, not, not like owner, right? Yeah. Like a, like a chairman, but you are not an owner. Like a regular person. That's not a, well, just like a, like a manager under, like a, like a manager, like a CEO, but you're not own it.

Right? Yeah. You're an employee. You follow orders. As an employee, right? You can choose to be a boss or you can choose to be an employee. You have to define yourself whether you are good to be a boss or to be an employee. It's not for everybody. That's very interesting you bring that up because Lee from the Boxing Cat episode that we just mentioned, he was also talking about the same thing. Someone had told him that. Like, look, if you want to be an entrepreneur, if you want to strike out and do your own business, right?

Then you can't have this mindset of like, oh, I don't know how to do this. So teach me, teach me, tell me how to do this. Because that's a very employee mindset. Tell me what to do and I'll go and do this. But tell me how to do it, right? If you want to be an entrepreneur, you're going to have to figure it out. You're going to be resourceful. And that goes into like the different modes you're talking about. Like you can choose. I can choose to be this mode or I can choose to be this mode. It's not, I'm not reacting to it. I'm not, it's not, it's a proactive, I'm choosing to do this. I'm choosing to be.

And depending on the context, I'm choosing to be a certain type of way. Yes. And on the other hand, it's funny things. You know, I like the game of ghost, black and white stone, right? So sometimes in a small field... How do you say go again in Chinese? 围棋. 围棋. Yeah. In a small field, you are the ghost player. You are the people who put the stone on the field. You are the decision maker. But in a bigger field...

you are just a stone. You are the people who would be just be put by someone on the field. So in a big field, like, just like, like a boxing cat before he is the ghost players, but in ABI, he's just stones on the field, right? So actually the people just behave in, how to say, they live in two definition. Two roles. Two roles. One is you are the ghost. One, you are the ghost player.

So it just depends which field you are in. Is that from more of a study of nature, I guess?

in terms of there's always something bigger than you, right? Like we think, okay, we look at the earth and it's orbiting, well, we look at the moon and it's orbiting the earth. Then we realize, oh, the earth is orbiting the sun. Then we realize, oh, the sun is orbiting a bigger galaxy, right? And then the galaxy is orbiting, you know, like, you know, it's other stars and other galaxies. - It's kind of just like for the Tyson things, the interesting things, it's just like, sometimes you have to give up your definition as a human being.

You put yourself as a natural way to say. We say it's a good bird or it's a bad bird. Or it's a good animal or it's a bad animal. 害虫和易虫。 The way we judge is good or bad because you have your position, you have your standing point, right? So you cannot say it's bad because if it's just bringing the side effect to human being, it's not fair.

Because for the natural, it's a big part. It's bigger level. It's just part of the nature. You cannot say it's bad. But it's influenced human beings. So you think it's bad. It's not fair to the nature. Same thing. If we put it back, even Xi Jinping, even Trump, it just goes in big field. I hope this episode doesn't get censored, by the way. But yeah.

So, which means it's like, even for me, if I'm not good at a, I'm not a good goals playing players in my own small field, how can I be a good goals for a big field? So, that's the thing. Can I ask you a question? Yeah.

like one of the themes that has come across and so far is like this, like, um, Taoism, right? And like, I know like Jessica lists, like, um, it's been reading like Zhuangzi and I'm just curious, like, so, um,

it sounds like you're a proponent of like, um, or, or you read a lot about this, uh, uh, right. And we also know in China, China, like, um, Confucius is really, really popular. Can you give us a little bit of a brief introduction to, um, kind of like Confucius versus like, and the influence. And then like, how prominent is like in China right now? Um,

Taoism thinks that Taoism is just like understand the roles out of human being. So human being is part of the whole environment. It's the natural.

That's Tao Jia. And the Tao Jia is the real philosophy of the Tao Jia is to understand the rules, the natural rules, the rules of the natural. The natural order? The order, the rules of the natural, but including human beings. So human beings are part of the rules. Of the bigger universe. Yes. So then how many people in China believe in Tao Jia or are influenced by Tao Jia? Is it like everyone? No, actually Taoism is less influenced.

The interesting thing is that Buddhism is more accepted by Chinese people now. Taoism, it's always been just like studied or accepted by more educated people. I have to say that. Because I have to say that it's history. Because before, for the very old time,

The normal people are not supposed to learn Dao Jia. Because Dao Jia, the main point of Dao Jia is you get rid of or just skip out of the right or wrong. You understand what I'm saying? Just like I accept people just killing or rob or doing the bad things because it has its own reasons. So even you skip out of the position as a human being. So sometimes it's break the disorder.

The interesting thing is Taoism, the Taoist, when the world is peaceful, they're gone. They won't appear. They just hide themselves. But if there's war happened or disorder, chaos happened, Taoist people just comes up to change the world to make it back to the peace and the disorder. How do they do that? They just support some emperor. They select the emperor.

the right people they think to help them to make the world peace or unite or whatever it is. So they're like behind the scenes trying to... So do Taoists still exist today? Yes, they still exist. But it's so limited. Excuse my ignorance though, but because I don't really understand Taoism. I don't even really understand Buddhism. I've never really studied and learned much of it. But...

Because Buddhism seems to me it's also deeply rooted in kind of like the natural order of things. So what are the main differences between Taoism and Buddhism? - Okay. Firstly, I have to say Taoism has so many manpai. Every manpai has their own conceptions. But the big difference between Taoism and Buddhism is Taoism focus on now, this life. Buddhism,

Except the next life. Which means, which means Taoism, the conceptual Taoism is enhance yourself to next level. Okay? We don't looking forward to the next life. Although maybe we believe there is the next life. But nowadays is the time I'm working on enhance myself, protect myself. But Buddhism is more spiritual. Buddhism is just like you do good things, you get paid for the next life. Okay? It's religion. It's religion. And then, then,

In Tang Dynasty, all the emperor, all the people who make the rules, they show people they are using Confucius and the Fa Jia. If you can check what is Fa Jia, it is just in Chinese we call it Wai Shi Ru Fa, Nei Yong Huang Lao. So the Xin Fa, the inside of the conception is Taoism. But how they use to put people to use or make people to learn is Ru and Fa.

Okay, so Taoism, the rules, the regulation is based on much bigger level. It's not only the right or wrong of the human beings. But as the people in this country, as a citizen, you have to obey the rules. I tell you, it's Confucius. I have no idea how to say it. But is it like this before? It's like...

特别是汉朝就很清楚的 内用皇老 外世儒法 法律就是这样子的 法家 But the rule makers, they can live out of the rules, right? There's rule makers, they can break the rules by themselves. 但是这是汉代的事情 那很灰啊,这样子

灰是对的。 If it's white and black. Right? So in the middle is gray. So is Taoism about accepting that gray area in between things? Not everything is about black and white. There are shades in the middle. And it's believing that there's no right or wrong about that. It's just the way things are. Everything happens for a reason. The right and the wrong.

how to say, rooted in your standing point. Just like- - Your perspective. - Yes, perspective. - What's right for somebody can be wrong for another person and vice versa. - So in this case, it's like Taoism is very dangerous sometimes 'cause there's no wrong and the right. So that's why government prefer people to learn Confucius and Buddhism. - Well, Taoism can maybe come off sometimes as very cold, as very...

not compassionate maybe some people might misunderstand it because they're not thinking it from a right and wrong perspective it just is it just is right so sometimes maybe people might think oh you have no compassion you have no you're just cold about the issue or whatever and Taizan is so used to describe things with no mood

For example, we say 金木水火土, right? That's only, it's just like it exists. How qi or energy exists. There's no right or wrong. It's just a description. It's just a description. Just like we say 金曰从葛,木曰取直, 火曰炎上,土曰嫁喧, 水曰玄明. All the words, just like

No mood. It's just rules. It's just description. So whether you like it or not, whether you think it's good or not, it's just like that. So for Taoism, just make use, understand, adapt to the rules. You are not changing it. So is Taoism kind of like Stoicism a little bit? It's like you kind of distance yourself. It's about...

You don't get too caught up in the emotions. Things just are. That's kind of very stoic, right? So, Gu Qing, let's come back to Gu Qing again. It's a little bit too far away. No, that happens all the time on the show. We go all around. We go all over. For Gu Qing, there's a concept we call it, the players have to be which means if you're happy, actually, you won't be that happy.

If you are sad, you will not show up just like a little bit. Everything is just a little bit. So that's a little bit means you still have your humanity. You are not just like God. You are not a goddess. You are still a human being. So it's okay. So even for the Laozi, it says it's guayu, right? Wang qing. What is wang qing? Wang is to forget. Qing is your personal mood. You can forget your personal mood, but you always have.

You can have less desire, but you do have desire. So which means you limited it. It means just get rid of it because you're always human being. So we try to... So controlling yourself a bit. Manage a little bit. But sometimes it's bad, you know. For me, sometimes it's just like I feel guilty when I get drunk. So...

- Do you get drunk often? - Not that much, but yeah, dude, sometimes it's like get drunk. I do some stupid things in Whiskey L 'cause I drank too much. I get so many bartender drunk and they come back to drunk me.

So that happens, you know? Yeah. It happens to the best of us. That's like, that's like the, the, um, the English way of saying, I mean, everything in moderation, right? It's like you have addiction, you have, you know, uh, maybe some negative aspects of yourself that you want to change, uh,

But, I mean, perfect example, smoking, right? I've quit smoking since February 25th. But, like, I've had certain people in my life be like, if you smoke one, it's okay. Just smoke one. You're not smoking a pack anymore, you know? So, it's like that idea of you're not going to get rid of, like, let's say if you have, I don't know if you're a sex addict, let's say, right? It's like...

I'm just coming in with some extremities right here. But what I'm saying is people will be like, well, I'm going to quit it 100%.

Yeah, I mean, in order to recover. But then it's like, but you're a human, you know, sex is part of being a human. Yeah. So how can you get rid of it? Yeah. So that's like a personal experience. Yeah, that's why I'm saying it. Yeah. So that's why I'm saying it's like, you know, what you're saying is this whole idea of you can't get rid of it if that's who you are or that's intrinsic of being a human being. And I hope a human being is very, for Tyson and the In-Yang,

道家 and 阴阳家 I don't know how to say 阴阳家 in English. It's very interesting. 阴阳家是什么? 阴阳家 is a philosophy school. It's a different way of studying 阴阳家. 阴阳就不是道 or 阴阳家. 阴阳家 is the school of philosophy around the yin and the yang. Yeah. Yeah.

For 阴阳家, 医家 is just doctor's service. 医疗的医嘛,对不对? 医疗的医,医疗的医. There's a saying say, 一阴一阳之味道,阴平阳密。 就是阴平阳密 is very interesting conception, I love it a lot. I use it all the time, all the time. 再说一遍,阴平阳密。 阴平阳密。 阴平阳密。 The school of the naturalists.

I don't have no idea. That's what it is. I have no idea, man. There's so many schools of philosophy. The school of naturalist or the school of yin yang. Okay. That's the words. I love it a lot. Because like he said, yang, right? It's like a fire. It's burning. Bring to people the warm light, sometimes hope. This is good, right? That's the yang. That's the yang. Just like a fire. Mm-hmm.

But if it's a fire burning too much, too strong. Destruction. It destroys. It destroys. And so you need the yin to balance. Yin is more like a what? Just like a wood, right? But the wood is cold. It's dying. It's not lively. It's just something there. So we say yin ping yang mi means you can't have the fire burning.

but don't burn too much. You could have the yin, it's more like pot, like a container. You need to have yang, you need to support yang. So which means fire yang is dropping down and yin is pushing up. So yin yang he, it's life. So let's say your soul, your spirit is yang, your body is yin. Yin yang he, you live. Yin yang fen, you die, right?

Plan is young. Operation, excitation is yin. Wait, wait, wait. You said pain is young. Plan. Plan, okay. Plan is young. Operation is yin. So yin yang he, that's a good plan. That's a good project. Right? Love is young. Money is yin. So your marriage contains yin.

Right? It's interesting you use money as the... I wasn't expecting that. I wasn't expecting that either. We say fortune maybe, not just money, it's fortune. Maturism, it's fine. You shouldn't love in a maturism. It's so interesting. Because we come from our perspective. I wonder if that's a cultural thing. It is a cultural thing. It has to be.

Right? Yeah. I was like, love, okay. And I was thinking of the one that maybe like, like hate or something. Like money. I'm like, oh. Oh, okay. So your dream is young. Your esthet is yin. Yin yang he. It's good. Yin yang fen. Done.

So that's the philosophy of yin and yang. So it's really, I mean, in its most simple, and I hate to simplify everything, but I'm a dumb guy. So it's just about balance, right? It all comes down to a balance of things. But the good thing is you see it's not just balance. It's something you can do. We can do to make yang going down. We can do something to make yin up.

So it's just more than just balance. It's something we can do. How do you control that? For example, we say the best plan, but class one plan, but the class three operation sucks.

Right? So we need to think. I mean, plan and operation. The team. Okay. You have great plan. Okay. But we don't have the stronger team to support this plan. Okay. So this plan doesn't work. Yeah. So we need to think about the team, how much human resources and investment we can put in.

Think about it. Make it a match. So that's something we can use. We can operate. We can do. Not just say it's just balance. We can do things on it. So that's what I like. It's a very practical philosophy to apply to a lot of our

real life things, whether we're starting a business or just managing people or doing whatever, or even within your own family and how to maintain a happy household. It's understanding that there's always a counter balance to whatever it is, the goal you're trying to achieve and knowing and identifying it. And then first identifying it and then knowing how to manage those things and the levels of those things and achieving balance is important.

Is the wisdom, is that gem that we're taking from this? Yeah. So that's why I say, you see, whether I'm passionate with the culture, I say I prefer, I'm more passionate with how to use the culture to make our life better. That's something I think we can use. So while understanding it, just like I'm trying to use this yin and yang, yin ping yang mi, this conception all over my life.

I just try to use it at all. I just try to find out which is yang and which is yin, how we can make it. I think in everything in life. Well, what do you, Sean, what do you struggle with most in your life? I mean, I don't want to get, I hate to get so personal. I hate to put you on the spot. You don't have to answer this if you don't want. But like, we're talking about this philosophy. We're talking about applying it to our lives. And you're talking about culture. And this can really help in terms of our everyday living and our philosophy on things and how we go about things. Where do you struggle with?

And where would this help you most in your life? My struggle is I still need to position myself in the proper way. What do you mean by that? I mean, I'm goal of a bigger field. I'm the goal player for the smaller field. For ties and conceptions, I'm always just trying to

develop moving to the next level, right? So that's a very interesting question I ask myself all the time. I change my answer all the time. Okay, very interesting question. Just like monkey develop to the extreme becomes human being. Human being developed to the extreme to become a, how to say, immortal maybe, right? Justin Yang.

A moto. A moto, just like you never die. A robot. Like Xian in Chinese. Oh, Xian. Immortal. Immortal. I don't know how to say Xian in English. Yeah, it's like a moto. Okay. So whether you want to be a strongest monkey or whether you want to be the weakest human being, every people has a different answer.

My struggle is like I have to define myself. I'm not that stronger. It's like in when there's like a big fish in a small pond. Yeah, yeah. I was about to say that. You know, like, or yeah, a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big ocean. What is that?

We're fucking it up right now. We're fucking up the analogy. But you know what I mean, right? Yeah. I think it's a similar idea. Like, do you want to be king of a small village or like a regular person in a large city? Yeah, like a large prosperous city. A large prosperous city. What would you rather be? So sometimes I confuse myself just like whether I should fight that much, you know? Wait, wait. What do you confuse yourself? Whether you should fight that much? Yeah, just because I, you know, I fight like hell. That become the weakest thing.

human being in the world you know just like this is pain in ass just like you do more the more you do the more work hard or the more the harder you work the weaker you feel wow so how does this fit in with your gu qing then right because like all of this stuff like

seems to go against just like playing your instrument and enjoying that. So I would say I try to save guqin as my wu. That's all you apart. What I'm talking about. You've been working on your you like a mofo, dog. You've been like you have the guqin here the whole time. You didn't even play one note. No, we're going to get him to play it. It's all you. So what I'm talking about is like you is something you it's easy for us to fight.

五 is the part that you have to spare. You cannot fight for 五. So how much of your time do you spend on 友 versus 五? 90% for 友, 10% for 五.

Do you wish that balance was, that ratio was different? Or is that a good ratio, you feel? So far, it's okay. But I have to keep it. Because the reason I'm still teaching, I still have my students. And my students would love to learn from me. Gu Qing. Gu Qing, yeah. It's because they want to also spare themselves with some Wu. Something just like pure. Not that...

you know, functional, fortune, fighting, hard, no. We keep it just like something part is empty. Because most of us don't even have that 10%. Most of us are 100% you, right? So then back in the day, like Laozi and those Zhuangzi, okay, how much time do they spend on you versus Wu? What would you guess? It's really hard to tell, you know, Wu Xiangshen.

无相生 means just you and the Wu can change each other. It's always changing. But I mean, the Wu was more than 10%, probably, right? The interesting thing is we say, if we say yin and yang, yang is much more than yin. Just your mind is much more than your really body. Just like you could dream like hell, but you just do very few.

Actually, we can... The yang is much bigger than yin. If we say yin and yang, it's more like the part you can explore, you can copy, you can research, you can understand. And the yin is something... Sorry. Yang is something you cannot evaluate. Science cannot prove. You cannot copy. That's the yang part. Yin is something that science can prove. But yang part is much bigger than yin part. Yang is huge. Yang is super huge. It's super huge. So...

the interesting thing is even uh for me it's just like like 10 years ago i can say just like my yin and yang is half and half wait is yin yang and wu is the same the conception is similar but still different difference okay duh eric you know like hold on you know let me just let me just pause for a moment so when we sat down okay first of all i'm just gonna describe this so

When we came into this room, the seating arrangement wasn't this, okay? Justin is where Sean was and I'm where Howie was. That's Justin's, you know, the Joe Rogan spot, right? But then Sean was like, oh, by the way, part of the...

has to you know overlap with the edge of the table so then we rearranged everything and then we're like okay well the host sits here you know the main host sits here and then Sean sits here right but then all of a sudden Howie is like he's like like he knows everything about yin and yang and like

you know Taoism and all this stuff like he's like all of a sudden a master really what I feel like he's been blanking out this whole episode no but the way he's been acting he's totally been like a motherfucker he's always like oh of course and then Sean's been looking at him he's like how do you say that he's like yeah exactly

That's another saying I want to share with you. It's very fun. Because all the time I communicated with a lot of Chinese government officers. There's a saying, a suggestion coming from my very close friends before. He said, if you communicate with the Chinese government, you should be very humble, very quiet, but they will notice you. Say that again? You should be very humble, very quiet, but they will notice you.

They will notice you. They will not ignore you. Even you are humble and quiet. It's like the saying, 你够自信,你不用说话, 你就可以坐在那边安安静静的。 It's like if you're a leader, a lot of leaders just sit there very quiet and let other people talk.

Yeah, if you're truly confident, you don't have to say stupid shit. You know what the fuck's going on. Well, yeah, just like going on with that analogy, it's like the richest people in the world oftentimes don't really want people to know they have money. Because they already know. Bill Gates drives around in a very normal car. They don't want it. But it's like the people who...

are not so secure in their wealth. They want to flash, they want to buy the Lamborghinis, they want to show off the money and all the other expensive things they buy and then post it and show everybody. They're the ones that are actually not, the most wealthy people don't do that. - So that's why I want to say just like, that's Wu and the You is turn to each other.

yin and yang turn to each other. Just like I say, if you want to say, because the question you ask me is how many percentages yin and how many percentages yang, how many percentages shu and how many percentages shi. Actually, it's more very mathematics way to understand. But it's turn to each other. You cannot really define. They're related.

And it's almost fluctuating anyway, right? I benefit. I can play gu qing for myself, man. But okay, let me ask you this then, right? I mean, so do you think like the world is becoming more you versus you? Or do you think it's becoming more you versus you? Like what do you observe happening in modern society? Maybe in China specifically. Yeah, here. I just said just like...

Why are you going to answer every question with some kind of Chen Yu? I'm just saying. Because the Chen Yu already puts it in the best way. Every time we ask the question, like, yes or no, and he's like, oh, Gong Zi said. That's typical Chinese, very philosophy. It only annoys you because we can't really understand it. I feel you. But that's the best way you can put it in Chinese. I can't understand it. Because I cannot really give the...

accurate answer. You know, that's the main point. I need to just explain the rules or explain some concepts in light. Whenever you ask me these questions, I cannot really answer everything

in a purper or accurate way. - He's like the best sales guy I've ever met in my life. - He's such a good sales guy. - What would you, because you have students and this is also obviously, on the phone you were talking about this isn't just something, this is a lifelong thing. It's a lifelong journey, it's a lifelong philosophy. There's really no end to it, right? And so you're still learning this yourself.

Yingping Yangmi

And what does that mean? Fire, container. Just make it yin and yang. Just get to each other. Just dream and reality. Just make it a verse. One cannot go without the other. Yeah. Just always just like, you can have your dream. You can have your whatever you want. Just go for it. It's fine. Just try to...

cut your dream in small pieces to achieve one by one according to your resources, according to your abilities. So when you achieve one dream, your abilities is growing up, then you go after the bigger dream, then your abilities going up. So always it's like... So you don't believe in the kind of just go big, go hard in one shot and one big step. You don't believe in that? Like just...

kind of just throw everything you have at it in one shot? Actually, I believe in it. Just I don't believe I'm this kind of people. You don't believe it's for everybody? Yes. So some people are just like a Job. Not all the people can just behave like him, right? Steve Jobs? Steve Jobs. Not every people can do that. But on the other hand, maybe because he's so great, so he passed away so early.

consume too much energy might be the reason just like in uh three kingdoms i love zhou yu he just passed away very early there always some like you have to pay you get something you lose something sometimes just like i admire some people have so many great energy than normal people they can just like like sleep only like a four or three hours yeah i'm right on that too i don't understand it i have to get my sleep that's gift yeah that's gift that's gift

I'm not a person with that much energy. So I need to make my life longer. Right? Just like if we say health and I say westernized, how to say, the nutritious or health is totally different from Chinese Yangshen. Okay? We say health is this moment you are active, you are stronger. But Chinese Yangshen, this conception is make your life longer.

longer and more active, more energetic. It's totally different idea. - But how is it into Yangsheng? Huh? - But this is interesting because before, because one thing you set out before that I didn't really get to ask you, you know, go back on, but it really stood out to me was, and it ties right back into what you're saying is, you said that for you, the harder you work, the weaker you feel, right?

That really stood out to me because how do you deal with something like that then? How do you achieve great things? Because to achieve great things, you have to work hard. But if the harder you work, the weaker you feel, it's almost like it's counterproductive almost. That's something I had to deal with it. But the interesting thing is you feel weaker, but actually you are stronger.

Because you become stronger then you feel weaker, but actually you are stronger. So it all depends on who you compare with, who you face to. So even I feel weaker just because I open my eyes, I see bigger picture. So I'm using this way to balance myself. I feel weaker, yeah, I do feel weaker. I see so many great people, great opportunities.

great challenge there. But the reason I can face them because I'm stronger. So I need to deal with it. So guqin is kind of a way to make myself temporarily skip out of it. Just be pure, just myself, just my own world. - Unplug from the matrix. - So, okay, Shawn, I've seen some patterns here. I feel you're super competitive.

You're a competitive son of a bitch, right? Really? Yeah. He's super competitive. This whole episode, this whole episode is about like, you're hungry. You want, you want shit in life, right? And, and I think people sometimes study things to temper themselves. Cause like when the first thing you mentioned on the show was, um, you know, the gu qing helped like, it's like meditation and learning about yourself. Um, I also want,

more in my life than I have. And I also have gone to meditation, exercise, but I've done it in a Western way, right? But you're very competitive, aren't you? You know why? There's another word for Taoism philosophy. I'll say it again, just like always quote something, right? Taoism, there's a word, very interesting. Gong Chen, Ming Sui, Shen Tui. I achieve something, I build my fame and reputation, then I quit.

That's typical of Taoism's conceptions. The time I accomplish something is the time I quit. You retire... Like quit while you're ahead. You quit while you're ahead. Yeah, like you retire when you're on top. It's just like retire. It's like I can give something. Taoism has a word to say, again, 生而富有, 为而不逝, 长而不在. Which means you achieve something, but it doesn't mean you...

You own it. You plant something, that means you manage it. So I'm trying so hard to achieve my yo part. But once I can do that, I get gut, I get the power, I get ability to abandon it. You never take something, how can you put it down? Yeah, I think it's actually very different than quitting while you're on top.

Because the top is still a success kind of thing, but what he's saying right now has nothing to do with success. What does that have to do with it?

I don't know how to explain. But yeah, but it's just an excess. Success is like the end. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what he's saying is that it's not about the end. Well, it seems like some people's goal is the success. But it seems like with this, the goal is to get to a place where you can quit to be the success. So, Sean, are you just quitting of the success? It's more success than the actual success. Are you just trying to be at peace with yourself?

Are you just trying to be at peace with yourself? So you have this fire inside and you're just trying to quench this fire so you can be at peace? Is that what you're saying? Why do you have this fire inside you that you need to do more and then let go of it? Why? The interesting thing is it's like...

I used to be very quiet. I just spent like 10 years just only doing gu qing. I'm trying to just spend all my time on in gu qing. But firstly, I have my responsibility to support my family because my parents is going out. I need fortune. I need money. I need more things. That's something I kind of give up, right? So I need to get something, how to say,

the real world need i have to do that so you were chill before your natural personality was more about the wu right you know both just yeah both percentage right just but then all of a sudden you're like i need some more yo and i need you yo to prove um how to say that i kind of enjoy the feeling just like i can do that but i choose not i own it but i choose i can't abandon it i love this kind of feeling just like

I can purchase Ferrari, but I don't like it. It's like almost like, and forgive this example, but it's almost like the ability to reject a really beautiful woman is more satisfying than chasing after a beautiful woman and trying to get her. Knowing that you have the ability to reject her is almost more powerful. So knowing that you're so strong that you don't even need it.

You can have it, you don't need it. Means that you're above it. Yes. Yeah. So that's why I say from monkey to human being. Means I'm in the field, but the mind is out of field.

So that's kind of a you and a you also as well. Just like this is kind of mindset just plugging in my mind. I cannot quit. So I feel sometimes I feel just like weak because I cannot skip a lot of it. I don't like this feeling. Sometimes you feel like you can't rise above that. You can't be. Yeah. So it's still all about the you. But you need to get, you need to experience the you so that you can be like, I don't need it. So you can go back to the you. But it's all about the you. Actually, it's about the you.

But there is no Wu without a You. Maybe one day I'm more familiar with Wu. I'm trying to use Wu to create a You. But now my level is not good enough. Right. Maybe one day you're like so like chill and so bored and you're just like, I wish I could want a pretty girl. But you're like, I don't even want one. Kind of. Yeah. And another thing is like...

One of my masters just told me that if you fear anxiety, you should be quiet. If you feel so chill, you should do something. Just another conception. It's like there's yin and yang, and yang and yin. Same thing. So it just goes back and forth. Neither is bad. Human beings are doomed. 我们好惨。

Like when we have When we have yo And we're like Oh I want I want woo And then we're like When we have woo We want yo It's like We're like fucking Like a ping pong Like human beings We're just playing We want what we can't have We're just playing like Like table tennis The rest of our lives So That's why I say That's why Tyson said Just try to limit your desire We always desire more things We are still human beings We can never be a

We can never be like a Taishan Laojun. But even Taishan Laojun just tried to instead of just we're still human beings. So I think all the processes, the way we enhance, develop, and send ourselves to make you feel better, feel stronger. That's the things, right? Even we're trying something for whatever, it's a side job, I'd say a nonprofit project or whatever it is, just like we do something

make us feel that we have an ability to do things. Just like, how do you say? Maslow. - Maslow. - Maslow, right? Achievement level, right? Sometimes we need to do something to prove ourselves. - Is that the Maslow pyramid of? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But then you get to the top of the Maslow and then you're like, okay, I just wanna chill. - Can you explain the Maslow? - Maslow just means that you want to be the best version of yourself.

It's self-actualization. You want to maximize like who you can possibly be. So like at the very bottom of the pyramid, it's just like,

eating, sleeping, safe, and safety. At the very top is like having a podcast, talking to people like Sean and then debating the meaning of what it is like to be at the top of that triangle. Try to prove your value sometimes. Yeah, exactly. Just the same thing. Sometimes we ask ourselves who you are, how to define yourself, how to prove you are real.

really exists what if people died your whether you have your soul after your body is gone all the things just like we do things because we want to prove we are there yeah proving our own existence in a way but why do we even want to actualize and get at the top right it's like why are we so interested in getting to the top of that triangle why don't we just like just be

Interesting thing, just because in Taizen there's a similar saying again. 逆则生先,顺则成人 Again, the concept of 先, I said again, just like next level of human being, right? Immortal. Immortal, yeah. So 逆则生先 means you just give up things, you control yourself, you manage yourself from up to go. For example, just like... Just the opposite direction. Opposite of natural. Yeah.

Just like you, if you want to just like develop, you want to enhance, you have to limit yourself. You just do something you don't want to do. You manage yourself, right? Just like you want, for example, we say in tradition or in Chinese legend, the xian don't have sex. You control yourself. You can do sex, but you control yourself. Just not do that, right?

So that's... Howie's like, I don't want any... Yeah, Howie, control yourself. Howie's like, I don't want to be... That's my idol. I want to be immortal. No. Howie's like, I could never be a Shen. Ever. But on the other hand, but Shen has kids sometimes, right? So anyway, he chooses to... Because they secretly fuck and they don't tell anybody. Like, oh, what's a Shen? I don't do anything. They're like banging like fucking every day. That's the thing is that Shen can choose... Shen can choose to...

do that or not right but human beings we are so led by our personal like a like a like a saying but none just like yeah our base needs well our actions we like to think our actions are all driven by our own internal decisions but

People who have not reached that level we're talking about, and none of us here have reached that level yet, but our actions are largely influenced and decided by the environment around us, other people. It's this idea of competition. It's this idea of comparison to other things, to the next person next to me, and, oh, they're doing this. I've got to do better. So all of a sudden, we get into this loop of where the things we do

are not because we necessarily decided to do it or we want to do it. It's because we're affected by other people around us or the environment around us or the situation around us. And so we're not really actually in reality deciding for ourselves. I like this idea. Yes, although we can say we decided to do it, but actually we're influenced by the outside. So sometimes we need outside to...

clarify or understand ourselves. That's, we cannot... And that's all the "you", you know, that's not the "wu". So in Taishan they say this: 故常有,欲以觀其妙。 We always have "you", so you can see the symbol of it. You can see the character of it. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。 You always know there's a "wu" there.

So some secret, some fantastic, some unexpected things will happen because there is 五. So 有五, these two things we have to, just for us, just like for me, for our, like for the people like me, just like we just should study it. But the interesting thing is like, 我们主动在学习。

Right? 我们主动在研究 It's just not like it's there. So I say, ah, that's it. No, we try to research it. We try to study it and try to learn more about it. Try to understand the role and the magic of it. Yeah. So that's the, how to say, fascinating part of it. So that's fun. But sometimes just people say, interesting, some people just say, Sean, you just like study too much.

Sometimes we say, "John, you study too much." Why not just spontaneously follow your heart? That's another idea. So what I'm learning, what I'm being trained is more like think about to think, just follow your brain. But why not follow your heart? It's really hard. This is the part it's hard for me. Just the people can really follow his heart and will not judge or doubt or confuse about it. It's talented.

Well, it's that balance we're talking about this whole time, right? It's the brain and the heart, almost like a yin and a yang, right? It's the balance between the two, right? Yeah. That we have to, you know, you should listen to both. But how do you balance? And there's no easy way to do it. There's no, I don't think any of us have the answer. Otherwise, we'd be living the greatest life, right? But it's about always pursuing balance.

that notion and pursuing that goal of understanding, of trying to identify where the balance can be and how to balance it. And it's that awareness, that mindfulness of how to

try to always be pursuing that balance i guess i guess gets a lot gets lost especially in modern day society living in a big city like this where everything is almost hustling bustling everything is going at a thousand miles an hour you know like every day it's really hard to get lost in all of that and you're stuck in one mode one one setting right where you don't you lose sight of

a whole other side of how to live your life, how to look at things and how to be. I guess. Maybe also just like, because I'm obsessed a lot, I can use it. So it doesn't belong to me. If I don't have to think about how to use it, it's just part of me. Right? So, still, still prove that I'm just a long way to go, a long way to enhance ourselves. We have to admit it. But anyway, just like,

I believe just like we cannot do things just because we haven't experienced in the internet. All the things can be a part of the ability we can build. So we experience it, we study it, we invest time and effort on it, then we can have it. But digest to be part of it is another story. It depends on the chance and talent and the moment. But anyway, I think it's a fun game to play. Just play a serious game, but it's a game. We play hard.

But it's a game. One day it just died, right? Sorry, it's not this. One day our life is over. So the game is over. But since we are playing the game...

Play hard. Play fun. Might as well enjoy the game, right? Yeah, just enjoy it. And try to do the best you can. Try to get the highest score you can in the game. Yeah, that's right. And then quit the game. Yeah, quit the game. Quit when you're on top. And I think like today, like we talked about a lot of different ways to play the game, you know, but I think we established the fact that there is a game, you know, so. Sean, this was...

a very fascinating discussion. You know, there's a lot of things I'm still trying to wrap my head around.

in terms of fully understanding. But I guess that's everybody, right? I mean, no one fully understands, I guess, everything, the depth of everything we've talked about today. But I want to thank you. It was a really interesting conversation. And can we do this? Since you have your guqin here, can we end the show with you playing a little something? Yeah, sure. And then we'll end the show there? Sure, of course. Thanks. Okay, let me set up the microphone. Yep. Is this microphone in your way right now? It's loud enough? Yeah, I can hear it.

Sounds amazing. Cheers, guys. Cheers. Take us out. By the way, do you drink when you play? Yeah. All the time, I think. Hell yeah. ... ... ... ...

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

That was beautiful. Thanks. I think the conversation we had today was beautiful. Thanks. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for taking the time.

I appreciate a lot because I used to try my best, try, not to say try my best, try a lot to promote the Gu Qing to work out. And I'm happy to, I got this opportunities and this honor to be here to talk about the Chinese culture, talk about the Gu Qing.

Although my English is not that good to explain everything. No, it's fine. It's fine. Most of our listeners are Chinese anyway. But it's really thankful to have this platform too. Your English is very good. Your Chinese is brilliant. And I'm going to be listening to this episode about 500 times. No.

Our listeners, I think that we're going to get more comments on this episode. Our listeners are going to listen to it and probably immediately get it and be like, these three guys are idiots. Well, they probably already think we're idiots anyway already. Anyway, one last time. Let's cheers. I mean, I got to pour some more here. Can't cheers with an empty cup. Now, can we? Okay.

I'm hungry. Oh, Howie, all of a sudden you want some more whiskey. I'm hungry, actually. Yeah, fuck you, Howie. I mean, fuck you, Eric. Fuck you, Eric. Cheers, guys. Cheers. Thanks, Sean. Thank you, Sean. Cheers. Thanks, Sean. Amazing. All right, guys. That was Sean. That was the guqin. Hope you guys enjoyed. I'm Justin. I'm Howie.

And I'm Eric. You got it right this time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, guys. We love you. Peace. See you. Bye.