Megan Russell: China is not our enemy
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Today, we speak with Megan Russell, Code Pink's China Is Not Our Enemy campaign coordinator. Welcome to The Bridge, enlightening conversations on world cultures, life, and everything in between. Hey, everyone. This is Jason Smith, host of The Bridge podcast from sunny California. If you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. We love The Bridge. Yeah.

Hey, everyone. My name is Jason Smith. I'm originally from sunny California, now living in beautiful Beijing. And I'm looking out the window. It is a truly breathtakingly beautiful day in Beijing. Megan graduated from the London School of Economics with a master's degree in conflict studies. She attended NYU, where she studied conflict culture and international law. Megan spent one year studying in Shanghai and over eight years studying Mandarin. Wow, I'm guessing her Chinese is much better than mine then.

She works on the CodePing team and has written for Counterpunch, Nation of Change, MuckRack, The Sri Lankan Guardian, and more. Welcome to The Bridge to China, Megan. Thank you so much. Glad to be here. You know, before we get into like specific questions, I like to ask our guests about their connection to China. Could you tell us a little bit about when you first started coming to China and why? Yeah, well, you know, I think I was about...

I had to be about eight or nine years old when I decided that I wanted to study Chinese. Yeah, it was really quite a random interest. And I don't know exactly where it came from, but I ended up having a China themed birthday party when I turned, I think like 10 years old. And my parents bought me a little English to Chinese translation book. So I knew absolutely nothing about China or Chinese.

Chinese language at the time. So in retrospect, it feels a little fate-like. But it could have just been a random trigger that I picked up that altered the course of my life. But I retained that interest through my teens and ended up taking Chinese when I got into high school and then in university. And of course, I decided to spend a year studying in China. So my interest in

China was really an organic thing. I mean, I was 10 in 2010. That was around the start of the pivot to Asia when the US was really starting to pay a lot more attention to China's growth and development. So first I had an interest in the language and that fed into interest in culture and history and

Being in China, you know, I was just completely blown away by everything. I really fell in love with the country and the people. So, you know, my studies of China since then have just been a genuine interest. And yeah.

You know, to be honest, I was really unaware of all the anti-China sentiment for the longest time. I think I just, you know, never had a chance to be socialized into that because of my organic interests. So it was a surprise to me to learn just how many people had, you know, such negative feelings towards China, especially never having been there or studied the language or history or had spontaneous interactions with the people.

But on the other side of that, you know, I studied conflict in university because I hate conflict. And I figure, you know, I might as well try to have a more positive impact than a negative impact in my life. And war was just one of the worst things I could find. So I decided to study conflict with the intention to work towards ending it and...

I was just organically interested in China. And that's just how I kind of ended up where I am, which is at a feminist anti-war organization trying to prevent war between the U.S. and China. Wow, that is quite a story. Kind of everything just sort of fits together perfectly in that. My narrative is very blurry. So yours kind of has like a lot of cogency and makes a lot of sense. Would you tell us about your first time arriving? Was your first time arriving in China when you came to live in Shanghai?

Yes, that was the first time that I had set foot in mainland China. I did take a trip in high school to Taoyuan, where my Chinese teacher in high school grew up. And that was, I think, a pretty formative trip for me. But yeah,

Arriving in mainland China was really my first time abroad by myself. And I remember arriving at the airport and just being like really scared because I didn't have internet on my phone. I didn't have money. I didn't have anything. I had no idea where I was going or what I was doing. So it was a very big learning curve for me. But I think I adjusted and adapted pretty quickly. Wow. A lot of people do a runner. They arrive in China. They plan on staying here for a while. And then they get really freaked out after a few weeks and run back home. Yeah.

What was your, you know, you say you have a very high learning curve. What was your first experience of like the first month or two after the initial like glow wore off? Were you shocked at the difference between our culture and China's? I don't really think the glow ever wore off in China. I mean, I guess I evolved to be more comfortable because there was a definite feeling of anonymity that I had in the States that I don't, I didn't have in China.

But I mean, even still going back to China now, I feel completely overwhelmed and mesmerized by everything.

And I was just there in November, actually. I went back for the first time since I lived there in university. And it was really incredible. Actually, that was my next question, because I actually learned about you by watching a video that you did in a small town in a rural area about poverty alleviation, where you basically went to a tourist village. Actually, I was so inspired. I wanted to just tell another story. I was so inspired when I saw your video. I was like, why am I not doing this?

You know, like I should go to rural places and check out like poverty alleviation. So I went to a village outside of Beijing and Hubei about three hour drive called Taihong Shuijun, which means Taihong Watertown. And I did that kind of same video that you did because I was so inspired by your video. But you went to this village to look at the effects of poverty alleviation and the transformation on the people there. Could you tell us about what China is doing in villages in terms of poverty alleviation? What did you see?

Yeah, so actually it's funny because I recently got a message from just a random person on Red Note that had seen that video on Guangzhou. They're like, we saw you went to this random village. But yeah, so I went to a small village near in Ruijin, China, in the Jiangxi province last November to visit.

see firsthand, you know, some of the more personal visible impacts of China's poverty alleviation programs, um, over the past four decades. And I mean, I think it's really powerful, you know, it's one thing to read about how China has pulled over 800 million people out of extreme poverty, which is an absolute miracle. You know, it's nothing less than a miracle, but it's another thing to go in person and, and talk to people affected by the programs and just to hear about how their lives has improved. Um, and

the chances they had and their children had. But, you know, China's done a lot of really cool, incredible things. And I think the world is really missing out on learning about it because nobody wants to talk about China's successes, unfortunately. And I think this is a, you know, this is, of course, a really big success. China has contributed to, I believe it's three quarters of the global reduction of people living in extreme poverty. And

You know, it was through broader economic transformation, development, new market initiatives, as well as, you know, focusing on education and health care and life-affirming infrastructure and also very targeted strategic programs over the last decade. And now China is working on sustaining that poverty reduction, which is a whole other ordeal itself and finding a path forward to common prosperity outcomes.

which is minimizing income equality, the wealth gap. So it's a big deal. And it's something we should be taking, saying, what can we learn from this? How can we use these lessons to tackle global poverty? But instead, we're really just blanketing China's successes with negativity because we're so, the US leaders are really afraid of China's

growing power. You know, I find that's true in terms of the U.S. and the West generally, especially all other developed nations where they're like, oh, yeah, China did poverty alleviation. Sure, now let's move on. But when I talk to people from developing countries where there's still a need for this kind of thing, they're definitely looking to China as an example and hoping to import some of those tools. I just want to briefly talk about the town that I went to, and I think it's probably similar to the one that you went to. My wife and I, we interviewed a

hot pot lady there who lived there and another lady who does dumplings. Basically, they said this is one of the poorest places in China before, you know, 10, 20 years ago. It's one of the absolute poorest places. And what the government, local and national, did is they invested in building a tourist town, you know, complete with shops that were free for locals to come in and set up shops, restaurants and so forth.

And then basically they created a tourist draw for people from big cities like Beijing and Tianjin and other cities that are nearby to go visit these cute little towns in the middle of nowhere. I think the equivalent in America might be like some historic cowboy town or something like that where people go out to bring the kids and show them around. Basically, that brings income from these really large cities which have developed.

into these small rural villages and redistributes the money through fun and tourism. I mean, so I think it's a really interesting tool. It's obviously not the only tool, like you mentioned, education and other programs are also contributing to raising people out of poverty in rural areas. But I think it's kind of neat because it also gives people who live in giant cities like Shanghai and Beijing access

a respite from sort of the concrete superstructures that everyone lives in. So I think it's a really interesting tool. I'm not sure if it would work really well in a place that, you know, that doesn't have a massive urban population because who's going to go to the village, right? So I think it might be specifically for those countries that have

big cities so that they can give people a place to go. It seems like a lot of fun. You're listening to The Bridge.

You talked to people while you were there and you speak Chinese. So what did they have to say about what that process was like for them? Yeah, well, just to respond to you, I think something China and the central government is really good at is finding things about cities to kind of raise up and emphasize as like a as a tourism draw, like some city like festivals cities have. And I went to one other village that I'm.

Xi Jinping had visited on May 20th and that kind of became like the personality characteristic of the city. And they had this rainbow road through the village. It was more, it was a village, not a city, um, that had five 20 on it. And it be, and it was cause Wu Arling sounds a little bit like what I mean. So it was like the rainbow love road of,

Xi Jinping, it was really funny. But yeah, I had a chance to talk to some people. And I mean, I will say my Chinese is really not fluent, but it's passable. And I talked to one village head who said that he had...

he had been a teacher for a time and now he had his own store that it was mostly, I think for tourists who were visiting that bought stuff at his store, but he was able to provide for his kids and,

send them to the city to receive education. And then they ended up working for the state, I think. And I talked to, there was this one man in the Rainbow Love Road village who had this photo of Xi Jinping and him sitting together at a table. And we sat at the table with him and he had his clock that he had frozen to the exact time that Xi Jinping was there sitting at his table. And he was like,

yeah, so this moment is frozen for eternity. Like it was, it was his, you know, the biggest moment of his life kind of. And he felt such gratitude, I think, for the opportunities that

he had because of the the poverty alleviation programs so it was it was kind of inspiring to see how much it meant to people that they that they would freeze their clock on the wall yeah that's actually a very beautiful sentiment um so let's talk really briefly we're both U.S citizens with connections to China and it's really hard especially for me because I'm not in America and when I left

the U.S. to live in China in 2012, like you mentioned before, there wasn't a huge anti-China fervor. So it looks like we're entering a period of a Red Scare 2.0 in the U.S. about China. And

I wanted to ask you because your work directly impacts the leadership in the U.S. Why is the U.S. hosting congressional hearings which are focused on China? From my perspective, China isn't a threat to the United States. What's going on? No. I mean, China poses no military threat to the U.S. Chinese leaders have no desire to take their country to war. They've not been involved in a conflict for 40, 45 years.

There's a lot of research that says even like a minor conflict across the Taiwan Strait would absolutely devastate the economy, which why would they want to do that after all this effort they've spent building it? But yeah, in congressional hearings, all you hear is, you know, we need to prepare war fighters to defeat China. That's something that the chairman of the

something defense committee said last week. China is the greatest security threat to the United States. China is a malign entity with the intention to destroy the U.S. and everything it stands for. And, you know, the thing is China,

It may not be a military threat, but it is on many levels an economic threat. It's a threat to U.S. global domination. It's a threat to the continued wealth extraction and exploitation of our capitalist systems. And whether it's a threat of any kind, you know, whether military, economic,

ideological um our government has a tendency to respond with force with our military with covert actions with violence and regime regime change and and bombing civilians you know it's this sort of um

I describe it as kind of like an anachronistic Cold War era foreign policy of peace through strength, where peace means the status quo of U.S. global domination, and strength means war. And in order to perpetuate that foreign policy, we need to raise up an enemy,

And to do that, we need to generate fear. And our system is really great at that. Yeah, they've been doing it for a long time. You see this alignment in our government, in the media, in think tanks, in federal agencies, everywhere in Hollywood, and then in public consciousness as well, that this entity, whoever it may be, is our enemy and is something to fear.

And we need to prepare for war as a way to prevent war. This happened during the first Red Scare. The second happened in Vietnam and Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan. And, you know, the first Red Scare was 100 years ago in response to, you know, all these a number of socialist revolutions around the world. And in 100 years, it's

really like not a lot has changed. It's the same fear tactics and delegitimization of opinions. They're still calling, you know, any left wing ideas as radical threats to society and claiming that we're funded by foreign agents. It's very silly and hysterical and not a threat to the American public at all, only a threat to those who are most benefiting from

exploitation of common people, you know, the billionaires, the wealthy, the elite. And that's why, you know, they have to work so hard to convince the public to be afraid. Wow. That's really concise and puts a lot of my thoughts into a clearer position. I'm going to I think I'm going to cut this piece out as the advertisement for this interview. You're listening to The Bridge.

Let's talk about solar energy. You've written an article about it. So China has installed many times more solar and wind than the U.S. China has reached peak carbon, according to a lot of experts around the world, which means in the coming years, China's emissions are set to start lowering. And per capita, Chinese citizens cause far less damage.

emissions than our U.S. and Canadian counterparts and other countries around the world. You wrote in an article last year that, quote, U.S. leaders label China's investment into green energy technology

technology as exploitative, an attempt to sabotage its efforts with high tariffs. So what's going on? Yeah, so, well, this is the hypocrisy, right? The U.S. and Western allies have, since the time of the Industrial Revolution, released a large majority of total carbon emissions of the world. And China, who has recently developed, and though China

you know, its total carbon emissions have recently surpassed the U.S. It's not in total released as much CO2 as the U.S., but is getting all the blame for climate change. And

This is because there's an expectation on developing countries in Asia and Africa across the entire global south that they must not develop because that would push CO2 emissions far higher than where they currently are. But wealth extracting nations in the West are allowed, of course, to freely develop.

And not only that, but also outsource their emissions to the global south, you know, exploiting cheap labor, extracting wealth, and then blaming those CO2 emissions on those particular nations, even though it's our purchasing and our overconsumption that contributes to a majority of those emissions.

And now, you know, it's also the global south that is feeling the disproportionate effects of climate change because they're more vulnerable to it. And the U.S. is attempting to reverse course, in a sense, by putting all these predatory tariffs on these countries, especially on China, and attempting to sabotage their economy to reinvigorate our own. This includes China's green tech, which...

We know the world needs it. It's going to survive. Is U.S. hostility towards Chinese green energy products hurting the movement to tackle climate change? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's really nonsensical, I have to say. You know, our leaders are terrified of China dominating in any industry. But China has done a big favor for the world by making solar panels and renewable energy tech.

so affordable and you know the electric vehicles in china faced 100 tariff by the u.s even before trump got in which is really a shame because they're cool and super cheap and i think you can buy one in china for six or seven thousand dollars you would probably know better than me um and when you're over there it feels like half the cars on the road are evs with the cool green license plates um and a lot of the public transportation uh now is too um

But, you know, the thing is, the U.S. and China are the world's, you know, two biggest polluters, and they really do need to work together if we're going to prevent irreversible damage and reach global carbon neutrality by 2050 or 2060. There's really no way around it. It must happen. And U.S. hostility is getting in the way of that and preventing it.

further cooperation um before I ask the next question may I ask what year were you in Shanghai um I was there well I was there recently in November um visiting for a few days but I lived there in 2018 to 2019. I'm not I don't remember exactly how it was in 2018 but I'm assuming it was more uh the air was not as clear as it is now but when I arrived here in 2012 all the way until at least 2016-17

there was a lot of air pollution. I mean, it was visible and you could smell the coal in the winter in some major cities. So I wanted to ask you for, you know, comparing 2018 when you were first here. Oh, I guess not first year when you were here to live in Shanghai. And when you just were here in last November, did you notice a qualitative difference in the environment in China? Yes. Oh, yes. Especially in Beijing. Actually, I was there in November 2019.

And I wore a mask the entire time because the air quality was really bad. And I had a lot of headaches. And I just went back the same time of the year, last November, and the skies were clear and blue and the air quality was better even than here in D.C., which was, yeah, I kept checking because I wanted to compare. So it was really a radical change and it happened so fast. And I think, you know, that's partly why people are still uninformed about

China's green initiatives because they've happened so quickly. And there's still a stigma of China being the number one polluter of the world that overshadows a lot of the activity that they've done trying to reach carbon neutrality. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It happened so fast. It was in a window of like five or six, seven years ago.

everything transformed, water transformed, land transformed, air transformed. And I don't think the West is caught up with the fact that China is considerably cleaner than it once was. You know, the TikTok ban is something I find very interesting because it hasn't gone away. You know, originally it was going to happen in like January, then it was going to happen last month, and now it's going to happen next month. So a lot of this has caused what

you know is termed a tick-tock refugee movement into xiao hongshu and to a lesser degree douyin which is actually tick-tock xiao hongshu is not but what what have you made of that what impact is someone living primarily in the us has that had on u.s attitudes especially among young people yeah i mean the tick-tock refugee moment was really beautiful unexpected phenomenon of this year um

I will note first though that, you know, the U.S., we, you know, we claim the TikTok ban was because of Chinese spying and interference, but it was really a response to activism for like Palestine and other similar movements and attempt to control the developing mind of our nation's youth. And they've spoken about this actually at public hearings and insider hearings and stuff, but it was really unexpected and super ironic, I would say, that in protest of the ban, a flood of

TikTokers hopped on, you know, the Chinese social media app Xiaohongshu Red Note and started connecting with Chinese netizens and breaking through a lot of the anti-China propaganda. And that really scared the government too. It's, you know, why the TikTok ban has had two extensions because

This was an even worse ordeal because now we have a bunch of Gen Zers talking about how amazing China is, how their health care system is super affordable and the high speed rail is convenient and well connected. And there is this realization that, you know, something must have gone wrong because China is so far ahead and our infrastructure is crumbling and American citizens can't even afford rent, let alone, you know, student loan repayments and medical bills and children in homes and everything.

I saw recently that for the first time in five years, there was a Pew study that they, I think they put it out yesterday, that the first time in five years, the number of Americans with unfavorable views of China has gone down by like 10%. And it's small, but I think the Xiaohongshu red note phenomenon and all these influencers like iShowSpeed exploring China have really contributed to it. It's really, it's really...

Yeah. I saw that study. I'm going to, I'm going to do a show about that next month because I'm hopeful that that kind of statistical phenomenon can stay in place or even improve. Um, so you are a member of code pink, uh, by the way, you know, I'm a huge fan of everything you ladies do. And I know there's a couple of gentlemen I've looked at your roster, but I'm a huge fan of code pink. And, uh, thank you so much for all of your hard work. You, you are heroes for, uh, anti-war movement all around the world. Uh,

Could you tell us about the China is not our enemy campaign? Yeah, sure. So the campaign itself was created about five years ago in response to this rapid demonization of China and the media and in our government. And our co-founder, Jody Evans, who's been in the anti-war movement for decades, she recognized that the same thing was happening with China that happened with Iraq. You know, there was this

a generation of public consensus that was beginning to lead to military buildup and that could lead potentially to war. So the campaign was created to counteract those efforts. And I think we were pretty direct in our messaging with saying that China is not our enemy. So we advocate for cooperation and diplomacy with China, especially on the environment,

um, for the militarization in the Asia Pacific and, and various issues that connect to that. If other people want to support your efforts, uh, want to support the China is not our enemy campaign, what can they do and how can they get involved? Yeah. So they can go to codepink.org slash China to find basically all our resources. Um, or just send me an email, Megan, M E G I N at codepink.org. And I would be happy to assist. Uh,

You know, you recently addressed claims by Congressman Jim Banks that Code Pink was being funded by the Communist Party of China. Could you address those concerns? Are you guys getting funding from the Communist Party of China? No, first of all, no, we're not. But yeah, this isn't the first time we've been accused of it, and I'm sure it won't be the last time.

that us or the anti-war movement or any left-leaning organization or individual will be labeled a foreign Asian as an attempt to delegitimize our work. It's really not new and it's super tired. And according to the media and various politicians, we've also been funded by Hamas and Cuba and Russia and Iran and the list goes on. China is just merely the new

The newest claim. But we like to confront the allegations, even though they're absurd, because people do often believe them, especially our, you know, our opposition, so to speak, who benefit from believing them and can toss lines at us when we confront them for funding genocide and other various war crimes.

They like to deflect and attack rather than take a look in the mirror. But, you know, the allegations will continue to come and but will never stop us from speaking out against war and against what they're doing that we don't agree with. You're listening to The Bridge.

You know, when I think of Code Pink, I think of an anti-war organization, but I think Code Pink is more than that. Could you tell us a little bit about Code Pink's purpose and what you guys are doing or folks are doing? Yeah, so we're a nonpartisan anti-war organization. We're against all war crimes.

So it's really nothing new or surprising that we're against war with China. I think it just China specifically hasn't quite reached a place yet where it feels like maybe trendy, maybe isn't the right word, maybe safe to be against war with China and more of a general sense, even in the progressive movement, there's a little bit of fear to kind of take too hard of a stance because they don't want to be called out for being foreign agents. But we do a lot of work to all anti-war. We have a lot of different campaigns like we are, you

I'm currently doing a lot to protest the genocide in Gaza. And I think that's where we're seeing a lot on social media is going into the halls of Congress and, you know, talking to senators and people who are complicit in that, trying to help pass lobby for charities, preventing weapons sales to Israel.

stuff like that. And that's, that's where a lot of our focus is at the moment. We also have like our Ukraine and Latin America and,

And Iran campaigns.

delivering to the U.S. public, what is the feeling on the ground about China? I guess let me divide the question differently. What are people being told about China? And then what is the feeling on the ground amongst normal Americans about China? Yeah, so politicians in the media, you know, they're really...

perpetuating a lot of absurd claims that China is spying on us through our phones, through cat memes, through our coffee makers and other random appliances that are made in China. They're really trying to boost this urgent sense of fear and imminent danger.

I went to one hearing where they talked about how China was monitoring. These were like Congress people. They were talking about how China's monitoring how many paper clips that they're using in the Longworth building. You know, you can't make this up. Like, it's really crazy. And a majority of the media in China is very negative, even, you know,

when something positive about China is being spotlighted, it has a tendency to undergo this, what we call, but at what costification, which is like China has reduced poverty at what cost? You know, China's planting thousands and thousands of trees, but at what cost? It's very weird. And you'd be surprised how many headlines like are exactly, they follow that exact formula.

And there's also just like a massive amount of threat inflation, which is, you know, using language to exaggerate the threat, such as saying, you know, China is preparing for war by 2027 or China has infiltrated universities to export our knowledge on this and that. And I should also add, you know, this has led to a very, quite tangible, sharp increase in inflation.

like Asian American hate crime and negative negativity across the United States. And a lot of Chinese Americans and Chinese nationals don't feel safe here, especially, you know, as they're being targeted for their identities. And, you know, it's been an ongoing thing. Even legislation has, has fed into this, like the creation of the China initiative under Trump's first term, which is coming back now. I think they're, they're calling it the CCP initiative, which they target, uh,

Chinese and Chinese American professors and researchers and academics for being Chinese spies. And a lot of it is just like super racist and discriminatory practices. So there's a lot of like really negativity in that space. And I think for the average American that really don't know a lot about China, you know, it's really easy for them to buy into this stuff because it's all they see.

And they've never been to China. They don't know like a lot about China. And so, and this is also coming from like trusted people, like trusted news sources, sources that they consider trustworthy. So it's really a difficult thing. And I think it is impressive that we have had a reduction in negative feelings towards China because it's like just...

saturated in negativity. Well, like you said, they're giving, finally given an alternate source on information, making friends with actual Chinese people over the internet and talking to them face to face may be undoing some of the damage by mainstream media or, you know, traditional media in the United States. That's really, really awful that so much media, I,

I kind of just wonder philosophically why that is. It can't just be all like the State Department planting stories in media organizations. It seems to me that there's some kind of echo chamber. CNN says it, so the New York Times says it, so the Wall Street Journal says it, and they all are ignorant about China, and they're just bouncing the same bogus stories around. I mean, can I ask you, what do you think is causing –

all of this negativity, is it coming from the Pentagon and other military industrial complex related sources? Or is it just ignorance? What is your feeling about why there is so much anti-China sentiment in the media? Well, I would really say it's a combination of both. I mean, we don't have a state media, but it is, you could kind of describe it as sort of a corporate state media where a lot of the people that

or on the boards of media organizations, or also on the boards of defense companies. The same with universities, too. I think they're somewhat coined a term. It's not like the military-industrial complex, but the military-industrial think tank, academia, media, something complex. It just goes on forever. But there's also a lot of ignorance about China. People are writing about China. They've never gone to China and know nothing about China. Same with politicians who are drafting up this legislation.

they've never had like a really lengthy or in-depth discussion with a member of the Chinese government. And yet they have all these feelings and sentiments about them. But there's also, you know, fear sells like, and media knows this and it's far easier to write a scary story and get all those clicks than it is to, you know, write something positive. And, you know, people that, you know, I think there's also maybe,

A bit of human nature. I mean, this is speculation. I'm not an expert on human nature, but I think fear, adrenaline, you know, it kind of triggers this instinct and we want to click, we want to read about something and kind of perpetuates that. Yeah, I guess I'm going to try to hijack that by just putting fear covers on all of my positive spin about China. So, you know, as someone like you who has spent time in China, and clearly you have a positive reaction,

feeling about China based on your time here and your childhood. What would you like regular Americans to know about what China is really like? Yeah, so...

I get asked a lot by people who have never been to China and are maybe thinking about going, like just how safe it is, not only in regards to crime and government surveillance, but also whether there is like this similar sort of anti-America sentiment in China that's reflective of, you know, the anti-China sentiment here in the U.S.,

And I always tell them, you know, there's just, there's absolutely no, like no anti-America sentiment here. I mean, I don't know if you've ever experienced that, but I have never. From my experience, you know, locals are always very happy and excited to welcome foreigners. And I've never felt negative judgment for my identity ever. And I've traveled quite a bit, like by myself across China and walk through cities, you know, late at night.

And I've never had any safety issues. You know, China is one of those places that seems like you can leave your your wallet on the table and it'll still be there like an hour later when you go back to look for it. And I also think there's this belief here in the U.S. that Chinese people like they feel like an oppression due to the surveillance. But when you're over there, it

It actually feels a little bit more like freedom because you aren't worried about your safety. You have the freedom of movement at all hours of the day. Whereas here in the U.S., sometimes, you know, you might be too afraid to go certain places by yourself or at night because there's a lot of crime. And I've talked to people in China who have lived for a time in the U.S., maybe went to school in the U.S.,

that moved back to China because they felt like more free because they felt safe. You know, we judge the level of freedom sort of more by like a moral value than by some like tangible outcome, it seems. And I also talked to

uh, this girl once just like that I had met on the street. I think I was in Chengdu and she was saying that she had never been to the U S and I was like, Oh, I was like, you should go. It's, I mean, it's great. Let's go, you know, go here and there. And she was like, Oh no, I would never go to the U S I would be too scared. There's so many guns. And I was like, wow, yeah, you're right. I've never thought about that, but there are a lot of guns and shootings and

So I guess I don't blame you. You know, in terms, I just want to respond to that because I've been here quite a while. The one part that I've never really heard people talk about before is the anti-American thing, because

I felt it was actually the opposite because even, you know, in 2012, there wasn't a lot of anti-China sentiment. But the idea that my grandmother was like, Jason, you know, they're all communists. Are you going to be okay? It's like, don't worry, grandma, I'm going to be fine. So I came to China knowing that, you know, Americans had this weird, these weird thoughts about China. And so I got to China and I was like asking people, so

What do you guys think about America, right? And then they would tell me things like, oh, we love America. America is like our big brother. We can't wait to be developed like them. And it was kind of shocking to me because perspectives in America were like, oh, yeah, China is backwards or China is communist or whatever it is, whatever strange thing people would want to associate with China that they have some misperceptions about.

But in China, I found that the vast majority of people all looked up to America, all thought America was some great place. And unfortunately, that changed during the first Trump presidency. And then I guess around the second one as well. And also during, you know, the pandemic as well, where a lot of people, they're not against America, but they're more like this. They're more like it's like,

why doesn't our friend like us anymore? Because they were looking up to America and then suddenly America turned on China. And a lot of people I know in China, at least my personal experience has been, they're like, how can we fix this relationship? You know, our buddy America doesn't seem to be getting along well with us. And that's more like confusion and like,

like then like they don't if there's not a lot of anti-American sentiment, there's more like, let's how can we get this relationship back on track sentiment among the people that I talk to, at least? And it's just really frustrating as an American who loves China to like, I don't know. I'm not sure why it's like this. You know, I wish we could fix this also. And so it's very frustrating, I think. Yeah, I also think.

uh with the red no like diffusing of anti-china propaganda there also seemed to be like this crossover where chinese people were also like oh these things that we thought like americans were just living this simple white picket fence life and were kind of ignorant about all these other things in the world but then they found out that oh we actually have like terrible health insurance and

we're all in debt and we're like struggling and they're like, oh, okay. It was really not as great as I thought it was. And I have some sympathy for them.

Americans now because I thought they had it just really easy and were just lazy doing whatever. Yeah, I think that's an accurate assessment of people's perceptions have been changed here too, where people in China are a lot more proud of their economic system because they're looking at regular Americans on Xiaohongshu who are venting about, I have to work two jobs just to pay the bills. And in China, they're like,

you do? It's like, really? That sounds awful. Because 90% of Chinese families own their home, and 80% of those who own their home have no mortgage whatsoever. So when they make income,

It's just theirs. Like, so they can't relate to having to spend, you know, a third to half of your income on rent every single month. And I think there's finally a connect in China that maybe our economic system here in China is actually really good. You know, I have the people's insurance, the national insurance, and I also have private insurance because my company is required to give me both.

I never use the private insurance because the national insurance is so good. And if I go to the hospital with a huge, something that would cost thousands of dollars in the US, I pay like 5 RMB, 10 RMB, which is like a dollar for the services that I get rendered there. You basically pay no rent because most people own their own homes. You basically have no healthcare issues. And I didn't go to university here, but university in China is ridiculously inexpensive. So it's like a

a few hundred dollars a year to attend one of the best universities in china no one graduates with student loans in china i mean very few people there's there is a minority you know but it's a statistical uh very small outliers and then those are paid back in a few years it's nothing like in the united states where you have credit card debt you have health care debt you have student loans you're paying rent and then you have to work obviously more than one job to survive or share an apartment with other people

That doesn't really happen here as much. So, you know, I think, yeah, like what you said, a lot of people in China are having their attitudes about the economic realities of the United States corrected. You're listening to The Bridge. I wanted to ask about Chinese civilization. Yeah.

So, you know, obviously, you know, you started becoming interested in China at 10. I'm sure it wasn't like, hmm, their economic system is great. You know, it must have been like aspects of culture that that got you interested in China initially. I'm just assuming. What have you been interested in and impressed with about China's culture and civilization? Yeah, I mean, yeah, at 10, I knew like nothing about China. And I think that's kind of the weird like part of like why I decided to learn Chinese and I had

Like we didn't even eat like Chinese takeout. Like my parents have very, very basic dinner taste. Like I, you know, it was just really out of the blue. Um,

But yeah, since, I mean, I find Chinese culture really very beautiful, um, ancient philosophy, Confucianism, this sense of harmony and balance with nature and sort of how that kind of has manifested through, uh, urban, sustainable urban development with, you know, cities and parks and this balancing of, uh, like modernity with, um,

uh, sustain, sustainability, you know, um, and also just like the development. I think I also, I'm just like really fascinated with the concept of, uh, common prosperity for the people and just thinking about how that could play out, like in the next couple of decades and what sorts of, um, policies and stuff that'll implement to, uh,

reduce income inequality and what effect that would have on culture and society as well. I think living in the U.S., you know, the wealth gap is enormous. And every day we see billionaires and corporations that are being put before the people. And our government and decision making is so greatly influenced and controlled by money. So, of course, it's going to benefit them, too. But we really lack that people-centered development that China has. And it's really hard to imagine that changing anytime soon.

because it's so ingrained in our system. So I'm really interested to see over the next 25 years, willing there is no war or conflict that could prevent it from occurring, what would be possible to achieve in the pursuit of common prosperity.

And yeah, sort of how that will manifest in society and what impact that will have on the people. I'm also very interested. There's an initiative now, now that the poverty alleviation campaign has largely been concluded, they've moved on to something called the common prosperity campaign. And this, the ideal is like, yes, to lower income inequality and to give all people basically a middle-class lifestyle by 2035 or 2049, depending on which one of these initiatives we're talking about. I think it's just absolutely fascinating. Like you, I'm,

Looking forward to seeing the outcome of this initiative. An important question, and I think this goes right to everything that you studied in university and everything that you work for.

Can the U.S. and China coexist peacefully? Yes, they can. And not only that, but they must, you know, for the good and the peace of the planet and for all people. There's really, you know, there's no other option. You know, the U.S., China, we're not going anywhere. War between us would be catastrophic for literally on every single level for the planet.

for the economy, for the US, for China, for all other nations. And so, you know, there was, since, you know, there's no other option. So yes, we have to, and we can. It's just a matter of how do we get there, you know? And that is something that I'm working towards and still trying to figure out, taking steps. I think just a little bit of correcting things here and there, misunderstandings,

you know, just working towards connection between people and doing the work we're doing at Code Pink and what you're doing to the Bridge to China, just sharing like others. China's done so many amazing things and there's so many beautiful things here that we have to protect and appreciate and raise up and share with the world. And how can we do that? What can we learn from that? And yeah, that's, so yes, we can peacefully coexist and we will.

You started to answer this question already, but I kind of wanted to see if we can flesh it out to some extent. Given the erratic nature of folks in D.C., especially a small contingent of folks, I think Marco Rubio and Senator Tom Cotton,

especially what needs to be done to promote peace between our countries. And you say, you know, you're figuring that out. I'm also figuring that out. What can regular people who care about this issue, not even let's back off from China for a moment. You know, the United States has an antagonistic relationship with Iran.

with North Korea, with China, with a lot of countries around the world. What can be done in the United States to promote peace between the United States and a lot of countries that the United States seems to have negative opinions about? I think it's true for all countries and conflicts. There's a lot of misperception there.

and misunderstanding here in DC, but all over the country, of course, DC is the capital of politics and of knowledge.

And yet there's still a lot of misperception. And one thing that we emphasize at Code Pink is trying to make that to bridge that misunderstanding yourself. You know, people don't know a lot about Iran, about China. They've never been, they've never traveled there or had a discussion with a local Chinese person.

So I think first and foremost, you know, we have to counter that misunderstanding, teach and learn about China, its long, very long history, successes, its desire for peace and mutually beneficial relationships, about the various perspectives of more complex issues like

Taiwan and the South China Sea. And people, they need to travel to China, to Iran, to everywhere to create those connections for themselves. You know, we're currently trying to get at least one member of Congress to go to China. But really, a whole contingent would be better. They need to bridge understandings for...

oneself and not necessarily rely on what our politicians and what the media is saying. But I think people need to travel. They need to travel. One thing we do, we do a lot of community trips to different countries. And it's something that we've done for a while. We've done trips to Venezuela and Cuba and Iran and Palestine. And we just did our community trip to China. I think a lot more people need to travel to China and to talk to people and to create those

connections for themselves. And we're currently trying to get one member of Congress to go to China. You know, I think there are people that would like to go and want to go. But the thing is that it must pass the ethics committee. And there seems to be like a desire not to allow people, allow Congress people to go to China. So it's something that we're working on.

Um, but really a whole contingent of Congress people going to China would be better. And I think there's a little bit of an opening now we see, um, I think it was Van Hollen who went to El Salvador, um, sort of in protest of Trump's, uh,

refusal to bring back someone they deported that was a U.S. citizen. So I think, you know, there's a potential there for that to be used as a sort of internal political protest. But we'll see. You know, that'll take a lot. But I think understanding China, visiting China, making those connections will naturally lead to a more positive outcome.

I mean, I think I've seen this again and again. All the people that we took to China were completely blown away. And, you know, just an increased desire to cooperate. I mean, people don't want war. Like, that's something I think a lot of most of us can agree on. And so that can just be, you know, an entry place.

You know, we don't want war with China. How can we prevent that? You know, I have, well, firstly, I think it's interesting. The ethics committee is wondering if they should go to China. I think it would be unethical for U.S. leadership not to have more experience in China. But, you know, you mentioned bringing tourists from the United States or people who are interested to Iran. I have to tell you, I'm very ignorant and I've always wanted to go to Iran, but I'm like many, maybe some Americans who are thinking about China. I'm a little hesitant and afraid.

Is it safe for Americans to travel to Iran? I mean, I've personally never been to Iran and I don't think I can speak to that with 100% credibility. But we have had Code Pinkers go to Iran before and have, you know,

had good experiences, positive experiences. So I would say, yeah, you know, most of the time when I think people say a country is not safe to travel to, um, I think they're wrong and probably have never been. And you shouldn't rely on that as credibility. I mean, there's, there's dangerous, there's danger at all corners of the world.

But I don't think that should ever stop somebody from traveling and experiencing outside of their culture, outside of their perspective. If you could, you know, you mentioned bringing people to China. I think that's extremely important. You know, our two nations are the two largest economies in the world, however you dice it. Could you pitch to Americans why they should come and visit China? Yes, I'd love to. I don't even know where to start. High tech cities, right?

ancient, beautiful towns and waterways, vast, incredible, unprecedented nature like you've never seen anywhere else in the world. Food that would

that, you know, you could never find at your local Chinese restaurant. Um, people dancing everywhere, literally everywhere. You can join the dancing too. It's exhilarating. It's so fun. I love it. They love it. Everybody loves it. Um, comfortable, high speed rail, affordable, um, that can take you, you know, anywhere. It's the most incredible connection of trains that you'll ever find, you know, Shanghai to Beijing and just four hours pandas, the

The most, the highest number of pandas you could ever find in Chengdu at the sanctuary. Public bathrooms everywhere, just everywhere. Like I think in Shanghai, they feel like they're every, they're like as common as like a Starbucks here in the US. Amazing museums, bubble tea, like the most, like 5,000 years of history, right?

So much to learn. So much that you could ever possibly learn. But just, you know, and a really incredible merging of ancient Chinese civilization with high-tech city, with modernity. And just warm, warm, very kind.

Does it summarize? Yeah, that's wonderful, actually. But, you know, I think for a lot of our Chinese listeners like to hear Americans' favorite one or two places. So you sound like you've been around a lot.

I've been to a lot of places in China. Could you tell for our Chinese listeners what your favorite one or two places that you've been have been and why? Yeah. Gosh, so many favorite places. I just went to Chongqing, actually, and I was just completely blown away by it. Just the scale of everything was crazy.

I could have stayed there forever. And it was, I stayed at a hostel that was at the top of this skyscraper. And it was the greatest hostel that I have ever stayed. It was just so cozy and hospitable. And the couple that owned it took care of me when I got sick.

Just made me tea. It was just really beautiful. So I loved Chongqing. And I think I loved the Yunnan province too. Just was like the Tiger Leaping Gorge and Lijiang, ancient town, just so beautiful. And I, you know, anywhere, I just love anywhere that I've had just like really beautiful

raw natural experiences with local people and I went to Wuhan and I loved Wuhan because I made some friends with some older ladies and we went and looked at all the cherry blossoms together and took selfies together and you know I felt kind of adopted by them and we my friend and I went together and we ended up hitchhiking um with this with this family and

Which I think hitchhiking, I've learned, is maybe relatively common in China. I'm still not completely sure on that. But yeah, I think, yeah. I don't know. Everywhere I've gone has blown me away. But those are some of my favorites. Two things. I'm going to Yunnan for the first time after 13 years here in two days. So I'm really excited about that. And the ancient town that you mentioned, we're going there. Yeah.

But also, Wuhan, when you were there, did you get to see the lights on the river at night? I remember a lot of lights, but I don't remember specifically. This was in 2018. No, 2019. You've got to go back. If you go to Changsha or Wuhan and you stand on the riverfront, all the buildings become like a rainbow and they're all dancing with colors. It's just an amazing phenomenon. I mean, they have this in other cities where...

But when you have the river in front of you, it's the lights bouncing on the river. It's just resplendent. I really just want to thank you so much for your time, for joining us. I've learned a lot and I hope our listeners have too. I'd love to have you back on next year if you have time as well. Thank you so much for your time, Megan Russell. Oh, wait, last question again, just to remind people, how can people get a hold of you if they want to reach out?

Yeah, so easiest way is just to email me, Megan, M-E-G-A-N, at codepink.org. Thank you again for your time. Thank you so much.