Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Jan Arden Podcast. I am Jan Arden. I am here with Sarah Brooke. I'm here with Adam Karsh there in Toronto. I'm also here today with one of my favorite people to talk to on the podcast, Zaya Tong. And I always get a kick out of Wikipedia. Zaya Tong is an English-born Canadian television personality and producer, formerly the co-host of Discovery Channel's long-running primetime science magazine, Daily Planet, which I loved. And I remember watching you on there. Welcome, Zaya. How are you?
Thank you so much, Jen. And thank you for only reading that very brief intro of Wikipedia, because I have to tell you so much of Wikipedia is wrong. I was just like, oh no, we're going to start saying the year that I'm born in that's wrong. This thing, like I've never corrected or, you know, actually edited my Wikipedia. So I always think it's very funny. No, I know. And, but Zaya is also very philanthropic. She is an ambassador for animals all over the world. Ambassador is the wrong word. She's just a protector of animals, a
She is a champion of animals. She is an amazing author. I would be remiss not to speak to you about the Reality Bubble, which is the only book on my coffee table in my Toronto condo. That's such an honor, Jen. And it's sitting there all the time. So yeah, right out of the gate, I have so many things I want to talk to you about. One of them is Twitter. It has been on everyone's minds.
the last little while with Elon Musk buying the giant social media magnet and your whole take on what he's doing, how he's doing it, and your presence on Twitter. I just want you to speak to that a little bit and how you are handling it and what you think the future is looking like.
What an implosion, right? I mean, you and I have been Twitter friends as well as friends outside of Twitter as well for some time. And it's an incredible forum. And you think about it, it is probably the closest thing we have to a real-time global hive mind on this planet. And yet here we have this kind of villain, this guy who is the richest man on earth who is now destroying it, right? But at the same time,
Twitter at its worst is also Twitter at its best because the creative resistance that we have seen coming out of Twitter in the last few weeks has been one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. As a medium, it's a medium that speaks truth to power as it is. Here you have all these corporations, you have the richest men in the world, and I'm sure so many of you have seen when all of a sudden that Twitter blew, he opened it up so that anybody could buy
this sort of verified checkmark and you had people impersonating all these corporations.
Oh, man. Fake Coca-Cola, but was tweeting about being the biggest plastics polluter on earth. Lockheed Martin was tweeting about human rights violations. You had Chiquita Banana talking about invading other countries. You had Eli Lilly, again, speaking truth about how they completely jack up the insulin prices and how that actually impacted their real stock market prices. So that...
that moment of destruction was also a moment of pure creation. And that's Twitter at its best. So I've loved it, but I'm also deeply sad because I've started a migration. This is a very big virtual bird migration. And I've started moving over to Mastodon myself as well. How about you, Jan? Have you done that? I couldn't figure Mastodon out. So I've signed up. My name's on Mastodon.
I've got the app and I'm going on and I'm looking at what I should join up to. It gave me like 20 choices of different search engines or I didn't get it. So you and I need to talk about how to work that. But I never even learned how to set my VCR. So really.
Well, it's interesting because it's kind of like a quieter, more pensive, more community-oriented version of Twitter. So, you know, it's interesting because some of the first people, when I first joined Twitter, those people are now on Mastodon and it's a lot less yelly.
So people are actually having more thoughtful conversations and you can join different instances. So it's a lot like if you think about email, for example, you have a different email server and I have a different email server, but we can still communicate on email. Here you join various servers. So you might be on one that's about music. I might be on one that's about, one that I'm on is about journalism. And so we can still connect and we can see all the people in our sort of home server and we can connect with the people that we follow and who follow us as well.
Have you heard anything about CounterSocial? I also joined CounterSocial. I have heard about CounterSocial, but I haven't used it at all. I haven't tested it out. There are two more apparently big platforms that are coming soon that I'm quite curious about. And I
And I think it's about time to be honest, right? Like, I mean, we've seen a progression along with our, you know, social media kind of moves. There's full movements, whether it was MySpace at the beginning or Friendster and then Facebook. And then you've got, you know, Instagram, you've got TikTok, you've got Twitter. So I'd be quite happy if there was something completely new for us to all migrate to. It gives us a different chance and a different medium and a different way of communicating.
Well, just as sort of another example to your point is when Rogers went down this past six months. Right. I think people realized when you have one or two providers, which basically Twitter is the provider of that kind of dialogue, the whole country fell apart. Banks couldn't operate. Things couldn't move forward. So I think to split the wealth up basically of
You know, they're not even sure how many users there are on Twitter. They're estimating a billion. I feel like it's more. Yeah, I don't even know if the number is that high, to be honest. It's certainly not one in eight people on the planet. But, you
But you hit upon a really important point, which is media power and media ownership. And I think that's the key thing. I think the debate is the wrong debate when people talk about media censorship. Because what they forget about, right, is it isn't... I've met tons of journalists. I've worked with journalists all my life. I've sat in newsrooms. Journalists aren't out there to lie. But why are people so pissed off at the mainstream media? There's a reason.
And part of that, I think, is the fact that you've got a media that is owned by the richest people on earth. So you've got Elon Musk now, you've got Jeff Bezos, you've got Mark Zuckerberg, you've got oligarchs in the UK owning the newspapers, you've got Richard Murdoch. And the problem is this, and I'll give you an example of the TV show, The View, which I have no problem with. My mom loves The View. But here's the thing, if you're watching a show like The View...
It's framed as if they're having a debate, but they're not. They're actually having a really wee small discussion and they have the same discussion over and over and over again. And that's because if you think about it, even when they were looking for a new host, they had to have what?
conservative host and they had to have a bunch of liberal hosts. And so they're just having the same argument. They're not stretching the Overton window, right? The Overton window is being able to stretch the argument out. So you never see, let's say, a radical left-wing tree-hugging host on there who's talking about, you know, the collapse of the planet and the, you know, the extinction of species. They're never
never having that discussion. And that's a big problem for where we are in society and in history at that moment is the most crucial discussions that need to be taking place are completely eclipsed.
And that to me, it's not censorship. It's not somebody zipping somebody up. But if you frame the discussion the wrong way and you're only allowed to have really kind of milquetoast chats, nothing too radical, well, that's a big form of silence to me. It's kind of like a parallel to the Facebook newsfeed, right? In whatever friends and circles you sort of...
subscribe to in conversation in social media, you're only going to get that conversation if that's all you have on Facebook. Exactly. It's a bubble. It's a reality bubble. Definitely is a political bubble. That's for sure. Couldn't you not say that about so many things about how human beings have made their way through the universe for so
thousands and thousands of years in that. I mean, the meat industry, for example, I would be remiss not to be able to put this jab in, but because you do have those conversations that are so narrow,
that you have that view type thing where they're just talking about, it's politics, politics, politics all the time, but they're really never talking about, like you said, the planet, you know, water, resources, how a head of romaine lettuce is $6.99 right now because California was in a drought and everyone's waiting for produce to come out of Arizona now and to Mexico so they can get that price point down. But people...
People are so willing to not talk about things so that they can carry on with their convenient lives, Sia. That's very true. Very true. Like just, we're just not going to talk about how things die or how it's, how much water they use or, you know, it's been really interesting to, to follow you through Twitter, just with the whole animal thing. It's a great door that we just opened. You're amazing.
Feed every day offers up these wonderful photographs of the most unusual, precious, unique, weird, wild, bizarre animals that share this galactic journey with us. And your handle is Earthling. But I've loved it so much and I love reading the comments of these pictures you post of all these different creatures. Can you speak to that and why that's been an important part of your journey?
your feed? Yeah, I mean, earthlings for me, I mean, every day I do post two or three different wonderful, wild, magnificent creatures. And I see myself almost as a publicist for different life forms. And mostly because it makes me so damn happy to see them.
And we kind of have this, we're so human centric on this planet, right? We're one species amongst 8.5 million animals, only animal species. It's nothing. Once you start looking at the archaea, once you start looking at all the fungi, all the microscopic organisms, if you actually go and Google the tree of life, which I did the other day just for fun, it's an incredible like explosion of threads, the scientific version of it. And we
couldn't even find mammals on there. There's so many incredible creatures. They do literally, when you see them, they look like every alien movie has only ever been inspired by creatures on earth. And we're so desperately looking for life on Mars or other places. And even if we found a fruit fly on Mars- And it's right here. Yeah. We would treat it like it's the most precious thing we'd ever seen, right? But all the life here on earth, we completely ignore it.
A long time ago, and I think you know, one of the things that starts my book is I actually interviewed an entomologist called Tim Cockrell.
wonderful entomologist who, you know, is trying to revive the flea circus and everything. And we were just out at a pub and we were having a glass of beer. And he was the one who said to me, you know, a lot of times, you know, a creature will fly into like your beer or your coffee and you'll treat it like a piece of soot or dirt and you'll just pick it up and flick it away like it's nothing. But actually, if you take a look at that,
little creature, it opens up a whole new world. And he's actually, he discovered a whole new species when it flew into his beer one time or something. You know what I mean? And when we start to look more closely, when we look at the microbes, when we look at, you know, God praying mantises, which are just so incredibly cool. I'll post a praying mantis whenever I get a chance. And I just think, God, imagine
Imagine if praying mantises were human sized. I mean, what kind of planet would we be living on? It would be the scariest horror movie ever. But, you know, it's just so beautiful out there. And I just want people to kind of fall in love with the world because I think that that's what's going to save us at the end of the day.
Yeah, the disconnect with nature is always very baffling to me because when people do have that opportunity, even if it's a couple of hours in an afternoon to be in a park or to be somewhere, you see them looking around during COVID. They didn't want to be in the house.
people were, there was an exodus like from their apartment buildings and houses to get into parks. And I know here in Alberta, they had a huge issue, of course, with people leaving so much trash. They even shut down a few of the trails because they weren't used to having the thousands and thousands of footprints, you know, trailing up and down these mountains and the amount of pressure that human beings put on some of these trails. But I think,
Just those few hours of connecting and people seeing a bird or people seeing a skunk go across the road when they're driving their car. It's just like, I live in a place that's pure magic. I woke up this morning. I have deer that wait for me every morning because they eat the bird seed. And you guys can comment all you want about feeding deer. I'm not feeding the deer. It is so not part of their day-to-day life.
nutritional cycle. It's a pittance. It's just something they like to do. It's like hiding a candy for a kid. And they're garden invaders, aren't they? Yeah. I have a 10-foot fence around my garden, but I had the neighbor's cat here yesterday. I have a couple of pheasants. I've got three skunks that live under my deck that we have an understanding. But I know for me, it has made all the difference in the world of how I make my way through it.
It has made a difference in my empathy meter, my sensitivity towards just listening better. It's made a huge impact in my life. And I know that I could not live in the city again. I just can't. I grew up out here. I'm five, six miles from where I grew up.
But just getting back to what you're showing people every day, I have learned more from your Twitter feed and I have looked up these animals and I've like, I've magnified them and I can't even believe where you find them and what they are. Your handle is at earthling, right Zaya? Oh,
Oh, it's actually at Zaya Tong. Then you go into the media field, you'll see a whole list of them there. And yeah, hopefully it'll bring some joy to some people as well. Oh, absolutely. Listen, we're here with Zaya Tong today on the Jan Arden podcast. And I want to ask you a little bit about the documentary that you have just started working on about plastics. We're going to do that when we come back. You're listening to the Jan Arden podcast.
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Welcome back to the Jan Arden Podcast. We are here with Zaya Tong, Sarah Burke, Adam Karsh. Sarah, you had a question for Zaya, and I want to make sure that you have the opportunity to ask it before I plow ahead with the millions of things that I want to ask. Well, we got big things to get to with the documentary, but you know what? I think this will sort of be a great segue into all of that.
I was thinking about your work on Daily Planet compared to now. And if we needed to look at how many years it's been since you first started working on Discovery Channel, how long ago was that?
Oh, Discovery Channel. I worked there for 10 years. And then I think it's been altogether, it's been about 18 or 19 years that I've been doing TV. I think about 17 years has been science shows. So I was just thinking about like how much environmentally has changed in priority over this time that you've been working in this field. So maybe you can tell us like what's like the most drastic thing that you've noticed about your work changing from the beginning to now?
Gosh, that is a tricky question. The most drastic thing that I've seen change. So you're saying what's been dreadful to witness? The speed and the acceleration with which the devastation is being wreaked right now. So I serve on the board of WWF International and we put out the Living Planet Report. And as you probably saw, because it made the news worldwide, we've lost two thirds, two thirds.
thirds of the species on the planet that we've been monitoring over this time, terrestrial species, not even including a lot of different species that we aren't able to monitor. And that's only in the last 40 years. So in our lifetime, thinking that we've lost two
thirds of those populations is staggering to me. Because I remember when I was just getting out of university and when I started really getting very passionate about the world and animals and species, watching David Attenborough, meeting Jane Goodall all those years ago. And I was like, there's a really big problem with the lion numbers at that time had dropped. But I think
I think at that point it was something like 10 or 20%. It was nothing like the levels that we're seeing around the world today. So the biodiversity loss, to be honest, what is Earthlings? Earthlings is showing you all the different species that we have on planet Earth. But if I tweeted biodiversity, nobody would look at it because that's exactly what it is. That's the word, biodiversity. It represents all our different living species. But I think Earthling, we can all relate to being Earthlings, right?
But the other thing, of course, is the staggering, staggering changes that we've seen in terms of the climate crisis. I don't think anybody could have predicted, you know, the models have predicted things being bad, but then we're always like, oh, my God, it's so much worse than we thought it was. And this summer, I did a talk on climate and bankruptcy for some of Canada's top judges and lawyers there.
And it was shocking because A, I had to sit back from doing the talk myself as I was putting it together. The information was so horrifying that I would have to put it away sometimes. And the beginning was just all the rivers drying up. I did about the first seven minutes of my talk. I
thought in the beginning it would be like one river and then it was this then it was the Po River then it was the Yangtze River then it was and it just went on and on and on and I can't believe what I'm witnessing to be honest in this time in history yeah the the Mississippi River is in dire straits yeah you know this the mighty Mississippi that has been talked about in folklore and music and and it's been so much part I mean it was a huge part of what Mark Twain wrote about you know but
But it's such a highway for carrying, you know, cargos that are floating down that river. Even in Europe, I've done a few river cruises, just corporate jobs that have been really interesting on these river cruises. There's 100 people. It's quite posh, but they're fun jobs. And I had the opportunity to take my mom, yada, yada, yada. But anyway, a lot of times, last minute, they're like, we can't go down the Seine. We can't go down the Rhine.
we can't go down the day. The water levels are too low. We're hoping that with the spring or this or that, that we're going to get the water back. It is a real problem that people are still somehow able to compartmentalize that, oh, I pay more taxes than other people. I can just pay more and get that water turned on because I don't care. There's still that whole idea that there's
Apathy is killing us, I think. Apathy.
of just not caring enough that, or it's not my problem or what am I supposed to do? I think all of those things. And I think that's why a lot of people now are really calling for system change and really why when I wrote the reality bubble, I mean, it's about all these invisible things that you can't see and how they all fold into the system. A lot like the matrix, right? Like in the matrix, there were all these sort of invisible sort of rules that we had to live by. And once you can start to see, I think the first step is to see what's going on.
But we really need to organize on a much bigger, much more revolutionary level if we want change, right? Because these systems, they're not going to change on their own. They're not going to, you know, everybody, we've seen, for example, the food system, Jan and I, you and I talk about it quite a bit, right?
It's 50-50. So people making differences in their lifestyle choices can really shift things. We've talked about cellular agriculture. For the first time, actually, at COP, cellular cultivated meat was actually showcased there. It was not on the table just figuratively. It was on the table literally. And this is- I love that. You can be grown without animals, right? Yeah. So we can really-
We can change the system. So what we can do is just be motivated, be involved, push where we can push. Jen, you're brilliant at doing that. You're always doing it. You're such a true crusader and champion with all the work that you've done with horses, especially. And I think you and I talked about that before, you know, I think to not get overwhelmed is
pick one thing, you know, or if you have time and the energy pick two things. But I think people get overwhelmed when they, when they, when they're like, Oh my God, there's so many problems. I can't do anything. I'm just going to turn on Netflix.
Well, and that probably led you to your plastics documentary that you're working on. Yes. Thank you, Sarah, getting us back on track. I really do want to talk about that. I know it's in its very infant stage, but tell us about what it's going to be about and what you are hoping to accomplish with it.
Well, I'll start filming in January. So I'll be filming most of the early part of next year. So we've already entered the production phase and it's a documentary. I think it's the world's first feature film on microplastics.
You're probably aware that plastics don't degrade. All the plastics that have ever existed still exist today. They just get broken down into smaller and smaller pieces. And we inhale that plastic. We drink that plastic. There's no such thing as an environment because the environment we're built, our bodies are built of this environment. And so over probably the summer, you heard that plastics have been found in mother's milk.
It's been found in placentas. It's been found in lungs. It's been found in livers and it's been found in the gut. So I'm going to be traveling around the world to some of the most polluted places and also just everyday places like my own home. And we're going to be looking at the plastics in my body, being able to measure them. We're working with the world's top scientists in microplastics. So I'm so fortunate that the production team is so, you know, got ahead of the game with all of that.
And yeah, we'll hopefully have it out just by, well, I don't want to jinx myself, but we're hoping for next year. Listen, if you need a soundtrack, a very morose, sad soundtrack, I'm your girl. You would volunteer that? I would volunteer that in a second. Oh my goodness. That would be such an honor. Thank you, Jen. If you ever need like morose moaning in the key of F,
You know, as they find plastic in your eyeball. Well, you know, Jen, to be honest, I'm wearing contact lenses. I have plastic in my eyeballs. I see the entire world through plastic every single day. So, yeah. So it's going to be a trippy film. But you know me. We've said this before. I'm not doom and gloom. I'm doom and gloom. We will find a way through it. There's a way through it. There is a way through it. Does it surprise you at all that some of –
the greatest crusaders of really the last five or six years are basically teenage women. When you look at Malala, when you look at Genesis Butler, Greta Thunberg, or Thunberg, or whatever, however people want to pronounce her name. To me, that is so encouraging. It's unbelievable the impact that they're having on these grown men who
at these, you know, symposiums all over the planet where they're actually frightened by these women's voices, women in particular, but teenagers. I know Malala is now in her 20s and a married young lady, but my gosh, the things they're doing. I mean, it's wonderful. And it speaks to, well, I mean, I hate to say this, and for any of your listeners, I
I hope it isn't taken the wrong way. But if you think about where we are on our trajectory with planet Earth right now, we know that we're on the brink of like, you know, civilizational destruction and the annihilation of most species on Earth. And it's been white dudes who've been running the show for so long. And it's kind of like maybe it's time for them to let other people have a shot at it because whatever they've been doing so far has gotten us in a lot of trouble. So if it's teen girls ruling the world, I'm all behind it.
What happens with like you working with like young people? Do you go into classrooms or anything? Because, you know, I guess your mandate on the earth is so inspiring. Oh, thank you. I mean, I'm very fortunate. I get to, you know, sometimes lecture or, you know, do classes with students and have been able to stay in touch with some of them. And of course, Daily Planet had an amazing reach, reaching a lot of young people as well. And one of the greatest gifts is, you know, sometimes coming across them on the street and they say, I became a scientist.
scientist or an engineer because of the show and, you know, things like that mean a lot. So, you know, really it's just for all content creators. Like your podcast inspires people every single day, opens up their world, smashes that Overton window. You know, you guys have guests that can speak about all sorts of things that you wouldn't hear about
at all on other podcasts. And so really when you have a voice and, you know, that's what Jan does all the time, you know, she actually uses her platform to give other people a chance to use their voice. And I think that's really the greatest gift of all. I appreciate that so much. You've given me the perfect opportunity to say that the horse shit campaign has just had a brand new sponsored government petition. We launched it this past week.
We had one last year that garnered over 80,000 signatures. What came of that is Trudeau and the Liberal government had mandated the banning of shipping live horses to Japan. But nothing was done. The Minister of Agriculture has kind of just been spinning her wheels. So we've been sponsored by an NDP gentleman that we're so grateful to. So we're launching this again, and it's going to be open until the end of February. It's up on all my platforms online.
for people to sign on that. If you're thinking, how can I make a difference? Oh, I hate that they're shipping horses. How can I help? I'm telling you, a government-sponsored petition does make a difference. It's why it was mandated in the first place by Trudeau is because they're like 80,000 signatures and they wanted the votes. So they put it on the table. Oh, there's 80,000 people that want this to end. They say that for every person that signs a petition, there's 80 other people
that think about it and should do it, but they don't take the time to do it. So imagine the numbers. I mean, I don't even know how they come up with the statistics, but if you have the time to go to horseshit.ca and do a simple click, and if you want to stop live horse export, imagine with climate change, putting a large, innocent, terrified horse on a large aircraft that's burning fuel
adding to the carbon in this world, flying them halfway around the world for wealthy people to eat raw. There's no sense in this at all, Zaya. No sense. I mean, our food's going to have to be so streamlined and so local and so plant-based in order for us to survive.
Exactly. And so the fact that you've been able to put it on the agenda so that, and you know, and I know that you've been calling out Justin Trudeau for the promise that he made and the fact that you are still sticking it to him, the fact that you didn't give up, the fact that you're still there going, no, no, no, I am. I will never give up. That is.
is the most beautiful thing. And that's activism. I can see Adam clapping and that is the truth, right? So for all of you who are listening, you know, support Jan because she is really leading this in so many ways. And I think that's what we can do. Sometimes when you see people do those things, just stand by their side.
and help where you can. So yeah, absolutely. It will change, Jen, and it will be your legacy. If there's something that you're thinking that you can do, go click on that because I feel like if we could get a quarter of a million signatures, man, that would be a happy day. Before I let you go, Zai, I just want to have you kind of give us a summary of how you've made your way back into
I guess, real life. I mean, they're talking about introducing mask mandates again, and we're still obviously in flu cycle and hospitals are overwhelmed and all that. How have you made your way back in? Is some of the pressure off of you? What's an average day like?
I know it's a, it's a huge question. I mean, it's, it is a huge question and I have to be honest, this year has been the first year where I've come out of that cocoon. So, you know, some of my best friends live in other countries around the world and I haven't seen them sometimes for years, even before COVID. So I did, I made, I made a, an effort and, and, you know, did trek around and I'm, I have been out and about that's for sure, but I'm, I'm still very careful about it. You know, I took,
I'll tell you, I took one yoga class. I canceled it. I thought I couldn't do it. I tried. I really tried because I'm just...
I'm not ready to be in a room with a bunch of people when there's still an airborne, you know, disease out there and it's going to start coming back up and creeping back up. So I am going to have to hunker down a little bit more now. You know, the wonderful thing is, you know, being able to get outside, go for walks. It's so beautiful with the crunchy snow and everything right now. So there are things that I can do. And I don't think that we're in that fit of paralysis that we were a couple of years ago. For sure. Where, you know, there were hazmat suits everywhere and we were just living with, you know, this
fear that was at the pit of our stomachs. So I feel like I can function, but I still feel like I need to function in a really smart way because we're starting to really see the effects. I mean, you've seen it on Twitter of all places. We started off talking about Twitter, the effects of long COVID, right?
How many people are just, they get it once, they get it another time, and then they are hit and they are hit hard and they are hit out of the blue. And I just don't want that for anyone. And I rely on my brain. I really, you know, this, this disease shrinks your brain. I kind of really would like my brain to be okay. So I'll still have to continue doing what we've been doing for the last while. Well, I can't thank you enough for once again, you're absolutely one of our favorite guests to have here at the podcast. You know,
You always bring this sense of hopefulness and that there's so many things that we can do. Like you said, it's 50-50. 50% of it is the big corporations, the fossil fuel makers, the plastic makers, the Nestles of the world, the Coca-Colas. They have 50% of that responsibility. But the other half lies with us. The decisions that we make every day. Yes.
Simple decisions of, you know, it's amazing. Empathy and caring about other living things is really going to change the planet and save the planet because it takes an awful lot of water to make meat.
And it takes an awful lot of grains that could be used to be feeding people all over the world. And yet we're feeding a cow. It also takes an awful lot of water to make us. We're about 60% water. So no water, no humans, right? But Sarah, you were going to pop in.
Yeah. Before, before you leave us, you know, to give listeners of, of the radio show and the podcast, like two things they could do in their homes that would really make a little difference. What's, what's a couple of things to think about? Two things. The first thing is join Jan and stop this sort of horse shit from happening. That would be the very first thing.
And, you know, the second thing, just practice joyful resistance. Find joy in these moments, exactly like what we were talking about with Twitter when they were taking the piss out of the corporations. Not everything has to be deadly serious. Some of it you have to find. You have to make it fun. If this isn't fun, it's going to all drag us down into the shitter, you know, and into the gutter. So the way we get out of that is we start having a lot of fun. So find joy.
joy everywhere that you can, whether it's the beauty of the creatures around you or just having a good, you know, laugh with your friends. I'm going to leave you right there. That's a perfect way to sign off, Zaya Tong. Thank you so much. Congratulations on your adventure. You're about to go on with your plastic documentary. I can't wait to see where they find plastic.
In your house and in your body. Yes, please keep us posted. We're going to talk about this again spring of next year. If you, like I said, I'm very serious about, you know, music, but thank you for everything that you do for this planet. Thank you for the words. And I'm still waiting for the second book. I'm still waiting for the reality bubble part. I know I've got to get on that.
So, and I say that to you every time I see you and talk to you is this like, but we were definitely, we're going to break bread. I'm going to, I'm going to see you soon, but thank you very much for everything you do. Ladies and gentlemen, Zaya Tong at Zaya Tong on the social media formats. I don't think she's on Instagram, but she's sure on Twitter. Go look at some incredible earthlings. Thank you, Zaya. You're listening to the Jan Arden podcast. We'll be right back.
Welcome back. I always say welcome back. Is there something else I should be saying? Hey, it's us again. Thanks for not leaving us. Thanks for, are you sitting in a parking lot somewhere? It's Jan Arden. You're listening to the podcast. I'm with Sarah Burke, Adam Karsh, Zaya Tong. Like how incredible is she? She's inspiring. You know, she's, she's a person that can tell me about the end of the world is coming, but I can kind of be like, but I still have hope. I know it's all going to hell, but it's, I'm still hopeful.
She named the episode perfectly. Like we got to call the episode doom and bloom because that's literally it. Like she found a way to make such dreadful things still hopeful somehow. Yeah. So, Hey, let me ask you a question, Jen. Have you, and I feel like I should maybe know this, but have you written a song that was specifically tied to, um, some sort of activism campaign? I feel like I should know this. No, I've never have done that.
Huh. I don't start that up. Yeah. I, I, I've just, I've never done that. I, I, um, people are talking to me about writing something for the horses all the time. I just don't, sometimes it just seems a little bit too kitschy and that I'm trying a bit too hard, but I'm, uh, I think music is powerful. What rhymes with horseshit? Yeah. Um, what rhymes with horseshit? Exactly. But I'm, um,
I've certainly had songs in films before. I had a whole bunch of music on Dawson's Creek that I still hear about. In fact, I wrote the theme song for Dawson's Creek that they used. You did? After Paula Cole. Paula Cole. I don't want to wait for my life to be over. So they couldn't license her song for some reason. It was too expensive. So they had me write something.
So I wrote like literally 30 seconds of this song that was called Run Like Mad that people would know. You can go look it up on the internet. And so they use that forever and ever. And I think now all these years later, like they've gone back to the Paula Cole song because there were so many fans that really wanted the original song. Yeah. Honestly, I just, during COVID, which I want to talk to you about one more time too, but I went back and watched
you know, on one of the streaming services from the beginning. And I recognized that there were two different intro songs and I had no idea that you were tied to that other one. Yeah, I was the other one. I was the other run like mad one, but it was fun to do. And that show used, oh, I don't know, a dozen of my songs over the years in episodes. Love that. It's the cutest thing. But yeah, you were, before we were talking with Zaya, you were talking about having an issue with
or a debate with somebody about masks. And I'm curious to know what that is because like everybody knows the mandating thing is, is coming back around. I don't know if so much mandating, but highly recommended because hospitals are dealing with a lot of young people, children that have,
respiratory issues going on. The hospitals are plugged up again. It's not COVID, but it's a whole other thing. But you can't tell me that masks won't help that. But there's people adamantly against it. They're not going to do it. I'm usually the only knucklehead wandering around the grocery store with a mask on here. And I don't care. I'm always going to do it.
Yeah. And you know what? There's an element of feeling weird being the only person in the room wearing a mask. And like two weeks ago, I was chatting with a buddy at my other job and we sort of decided together it's time to put the mask back on. Now, first of all, I've got asthma, so I try to be very careful. Had my fifth jab and I'm not telling anyone else what to do. That's my choice. But I went to a show the other night and it was a showcase pass.
packed at the Rivoli in Toronto. You've been in that venue. Small venue. Many times. I've played the Rivoli, yeah. So this photographer guy, he like smiles at me. And like at first I thought it was going to be a pleasant conversation, you know, like it was kind of between sets. And he goes, nice mask, like sarcastically. And I didn't do very well with that. I was like, what do you mean by that?
And, you know, I'm now starting to get snotty because I don't like that someone is commenting on my mask. Like of all the things to make someone feel weird about now, wearing a mask in a small packed indoor room, not it. Makes sense to me.
So I go, what do you mean by that? And he was caught off guard that I was pressing him on this. I think he just thought that he could get away with the laugh. And he goes, uh, uh. He's such a funny guy. Such a funny guy. He goes, I was just commenting that it matches your shirt. Jan, I was wearing a black, plain black shirt and a plain black mask. I'm like, really? Really? I think you're very fashion forward. Yeah.
Yes, but I wear black all the time. So do I. I'm wearing black right now. Anyway, so he ended up feeling so uncomfortable and turning. He turned. He couldn't even deal with the discussion that I was pressing him on and turned away. But, you know, this brings me back to one point. And you made this point on the podcast a few weeks ago. I'm not telling you what to do. You don't want to wear a mask? Cool. Don't wear a mask. I'm wearing a mask. But I love that whole thing.
Yeah, I'm getting vaccinated and I'm wearing a mask in the grocery store. They keep telling me that it's virtue signaling. I'm like, is that your new phrase for the week? You moron. I was wondering where that came from. Virtue signaling. I got it a hundred times from the trolls, from the... Okay, okay. From whatever, because they just don't understand that caring about other people there, they just don't think it's a real issue until it hits...
their kids or their families. Like I always worry about, I do worry about other people and I,
I just, the mask thing, it doesn't make any difference. And there's all these weird memes and, and, and then they have someone breathing outside with, you know, the, the, the mist coming out, the hot air, the steam coming off of their breath and that it's just coming out of the mask. Yeah. You think that's really going to help you, you stupid idiots. And, uh, Oh, by the way, you're a fat, you know, see blankety blank, blank, blank, and your music sucks. So, uh,
But it goes from that, it's all vitriol because they don't know how to have a cognizant, normal, they don't know how to have repartee with somebody and talk to them. Stop telling us what to do. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling, well, why do you have to tell us what you're doing? Because it's Twitter. This is what you do.
It's like posting a picture of the sandwich you're eating. Do I need to see your sandwich? No, but I'm glad I did. It's a nice looking sandwich. Yeah. And you know, to be at a show too, it's just like, can we not just enjoy the music? Like you did not need to make that comment. Why did he have to say anything? Yeah. Why does he have to say anything to you? And it's to, and it's to belittle you and it's to put you in your place and like you're a loser. And do you see anybody else in here with a mask on?
I went to a Flames game last week with my friend. I haven't been since the 80s when Lanny McDonald played with the Flames. So I tagged the Flames. They gave me like a flame and a thumbs up or something. There was two people that were wearing masks to my left. And I had it on for a bit. And I felt so intimidated that I didn't put it on. And I wasn't too nervous. It's very well ventilated.
There was no, there's a whole row empty beside me. We were kind of in this, in this, we were, I don't know what, what their seats are, but I was so lucky to go. They were such lovely seats. I was glad to sit there. I felt very privileged. I mean, they order popcorn and they bring it to you, to your seat. But anyway, I just, I felt embarrassed and ashamed that I felt the way I did not wearing my mask and that it was an issue in my head and it bothered me the whole night.
that I was afraid of how people would judge me. So I didn't do it. And that bugged me.
That I was afraid. Yeah, and that's basically what I've been going through too. For the last few weeks, I've been like, every time I've been at a show and I go to a lot of shows, I've been thinking, I should be wearing my mask right now. Why aren't I wearing my mask right now? Why am I making this decision right now? And then like a week ago, I was like, I flipped the switch and I'm like wearing it everywhere now. Well, my switch is flipped for sure. I mean, I didn't have it on in there, but I was at Santerra. I went and got a few groceries yesterday and I'm not in town that much. I'm not around people that much.
But I wore it the whole time. But what I noticed yesterday in Calgary, it was about half and half. All the checkout people had their masks on again behind their glass, behind that plexiglass stuff. And I was just like, holy crap, what has happened in the last week? Because none of the checkout people had them on. None of the restocking, the staff had them on. And yesterday, all the staff. There was a couple people at the bakery that didn't. But there's something happening. There's like, people are going...
I don't want to get this again. Well, also to protect businesses right now, right? Like look at what's happened to so many businesses over COVID. It's like, okay, if we can have this one preventative measure that gives us a little chance of staying open and keeping our staff healthy. Like it's, I don't know. It's a win-win situation, I think, in that sense. It doesn't take away anything to wear a goddamn mask. Yeah. Well, it's the vitriol and the anger that always surprises me.
And you just have to let it go. And I have to really remind myself that it is a very small percentage of people that feel that way. I think at the end of the day, people do care about each other. And, you know, we all want the same things at the end of the day. We want to go to the movies. We want to go to restaurants. We want to visit with our families and friends. We want to take trips. We want to, you know, go to Mexico for a week and have a cool drink. And, you know, the goal is the same. But, you know, we have to make a few changes. And it's
And I hate to break it to you, but it might be a permanent thing. Yeah. This might be something we have to be
really aware of for the next foreseeable few decades is wearing a mask in places. Who knows? Yeah. I would like for people to have learned from COVID that during flu season every year, we are now better equipped with the tools and things that we know about how these things spread, right? Like, come on, it's not rocket science. We have learned something coming out of these few years.
We just can't run around being so mad at each other. And I'm guilty of it too. Because I'm sitting here saying all these things and I'm so mad at
You know, the people that don't believe it's a real thing and the seriousness of it and the millions and millions of people that died. Oh, people die from the flu every year. Well, they don't have to be dying of the flu every year. That's why people are getting vaccinated. And that's why they're asking you to wear masks. They don't, people don't have to lose their kids because we all have to kind of chip in. Maybe not at a hockey game in a big arena, but
But I'll tell you what, I'm going to do it if I'm standing in front of somebody checking out my groceries or at a dry cleaners or in the bank when I'm in a lineup, when it's a smaller space, I'm going to do it. And, but I need to stop being so mad too. So I'm just as bad. I'm behaving in, in exactly an inappropriate way by having that iron shaking my head and being like, you, you know, I'm doing the same damn thing.
So when I lay in bed at night, I'm just like, you're not doing any better. And that's a hard conversation to have with myself because I don't think I'm better than anybody. If anything, you know, I have confidence, but I don't always have self-esteem. And I think people don't realize that about maybe being in the arts or being a performer. It's a really common thing. I have confidence to go and sing a song, but I don't always have self-confidence in myself.
And so this whole thing has been a nightmare for me as well. I just frustrated, but I can't turn that frustration into anger. So let's wrap up this episode with a bow here because I'm going to bring this back to Zaya and what she was saying too. Climate change as well as illness and disease.
It doesn't matter your status in society. It doesn't matter what you do for a living. It levels the playing ground. So if we could all take care of Earth a little better and each other a little better, it will be doom and bloom instead of doom and gloom. Eat a banana. Don't eat a pork chop. Eat a banana.
I like when you say, eat a potato. I like those tweets. I always say, eat a fucking potato is what I say. Eat a fucking potato. Whenever I see slaughterhouse stuff, I'm like, would it kill you to eat a fucking potato? I love potatoes. Please work on the horseshit song, though. I think it'll be good. Well, I'll do something. You never know. Anyways, thanks.
Thank you so much for being with us today. Zaya, thank you wherever you are. Good luck on the plastic documentary. And yes, it's everywhere. So I'm probably, you know, I'm probably drinking plastic out of my soda right now, but it's not a sugary drink. It's not a diet drink. I'm drinking bubbly water. And if bubbly would like to sponsor us.
We would be thrilled because we are your, I love these things. Yeah. And that's free. Okay, this one's free, Bubbly, but the next one is not free. This is orange. No, this is strawberry. Strawberry. Beauty. Anyway, you've been listening to the Jen Arden Podcast. Look after yourselves, like Sarah said. Look after the earth a little bit better. Look after yourselves a little bit better. And look after each other a little bit better. We'll see you next time. Toodaloo dee.
This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.