We're sunsetting PodQuest on 2025-07-28. Thank you for your support!
Export Podcast Subscriptions
cover of episode Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert

Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert

2025/4/25
logo of podcast The Journal.

The Journal.

AI Deep Dive AI Chapters Transcript
People
A
Andy Wirth
E
Eliot Brown
R
Rory Jones
T
Tony Harris
播音员
主持著名true crime播客《Crime Junkie》的播音员和创始人。
穆罕默德·本·萨勒曼(MBS)
Topics
穆罕默德·本·萨勒曼(MBS):我将通过Neom项目,像苹果改变手机一样改变城市,它将融合法国里维埃拉的旅游业,硅谷的创新中心以及迪拜的多元文化,成为沙特阿拉伯经济多元化的引擎,并留下我独特的印记,即使只实现愿景的一小部分,也将改变沙特阿拉伯。 Neom项目将是一个对外国人开放,拥有独立法律体系,并更加社会自由的地区,它将拥有各种各样的设施,包括发光的沙滩和用无人机制造的月亮,以及The Line这样宏伟的建筑。 我将建造我的金字塔,这不仅仅是关于改变沙特阿拉伯或重塑城市的概念,更是要留下我的印记,以一种非常引人注目的方式。 Rory Jones:MBS用诺基亚和iPhone的对比,来形容Neom项目将带来的巨大变革。Neom项目的雄心勃勃令人印象深刻,是世界上最雄心勃勃的项目之一,也是目前世界上最大的建筑项目。然而,该项目也面临着巨大的挑战,包括严重的资金超支和进度延误。 Neom的规划文档包含了各种各样的想法,其中一些想法非常超前,例如机器人恐龙主题公园、飞行出租车和全息教师。 MBS本人也提出了一些大胆的想法,例如发光的沙滩和用无人机制造月亮。 Eliot Brown:The Line项目是一个极其宏伟的建筑,其规模超过纽约市。由于MBS同时是开发商和资金提供者,The Line项目得以推进,而通常情况下类似项目因缺乏资金而无法实现。 Andy Wirth:我参与Neom项目的主要原因是其对可持续发展的承诺,特别是其对可再生能源的利用。虽然在沙漠地区人工造雪成本很高,但由于资金充裕,这仍然是可行的。我喜欢解决不可能完成的任务,例如在沙漠中滑雪。 Tony Harris:Neom向我承诺我可以自己定义我的职位和工作描述,并帮助建立世界一流的教育生态系统。在Neom工作压力很大,需要解决很多问题,例如制定课程和招聘教师。 播音员:沙特阿拉伯面临着人口年轻化、70%的人口在政府部门工作以及石油依赖等挑战。MBS意识到需要经济多元化,创造就业机会,并减少对石油的依赖。Neom项目旨在解决这些问题,但目前面临着资金过度支出、管理不善以及成本过高等挑战。Neom的支持者们常常将它描述为一个令人惊叹的、雄心勃勃的、甚至是乌托邦式的项目,但其能否成功还有待观察。

Deep Dive

Chapters
The episode starts by describing the unveiling of Neom, a futuristic city planned by Saudi Arabia's Mohammed bin Salman (MBS), in 2017. The ambitious project aims to diversify the Saudi economy and create a unique city-state. Despite initial optimism and grand visions, the project is facing delays and significant cost overruns.
  • Neom's unveiling at Davos in the Desert
  • Initial plans included tourism, innovation, and a global melting pot
  • Ambitious plans grew even more ambitious over time
  • Project is years behind schedule and billions over budget

Shownotes Transcript

Translations:
中文

Ladies and gentlemen, it is an honor to be with you this afternoon as we kick off a very special part of the program right now, as we watch something of a revolution happening here in Saudi Arabia. It was 2017 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Inside the conference hall of a splashy hotel, Fox business host Maria Bartiromo was kicking off Saudi Arabia's big investor conference, sometimes called Davos in the Desert.

Gathered beneath glittering chandeliers were the movers and shakers of the business world. They were there to witness a historic announcement. Please welcome to the stage, ladies and gentlemen, His Royal Highness Prince Mohammed bin Salman. Addressing his audience in Arabic, Saudi Arabia's young leader, MBS as he's known, unveiled plans for a place he called Neom. We have an opportunity today that is almost imaginary.

Neom was a futuristic new city that Saudi Arabia would build from scratch in the middle of the desert. A flashy video drove the idea home. Here we see the birth of Neom, the world's most ambitious project, a destination of the future, a vision that is becoming reality. We see a chance to design a better way of life with a blueprint for sustainable living.

There's this big video of what the northwest of his country is going to look like. And he's going to build Neom there, and it's going to be this futuristic city. My colleague Rory Jones covers the Middle East. He remembers this announcement and what happened next. ♪

MBS pulls out two phones. One is like the Nokia 6210 or something we all had in the 90s or 2000s. Like the one you can play Snake on or whatever, right? That's exactly right, yeah. And he pulls out an iPhone, a smartphone, and he says, he compares Neom and the Kingdom with the technological leap of those two phones.

The difference that is going to happen in Neom as a zone, as a city, is like the difference between this phone and this phone. This is what we're going to achieve in Neom. MBS's message?

With Neom, he was going to transform cities the same way Apple transformed phones. MBS wanted to create this place that was going to be a mix of the French Riviera where people would go on vacation there and it was going to have touches of Silicon Valley. Companies are going to want to set up there and create businesses of the future and then it was going to have splashes of Dubai where is this sort of melting pot of different cultures.

And so, yeah, I remember hearing about NEOM and thinking, wow, like, this is like a huge, huge change. But I also remember thinking, like, I'm not quite sure what this is. Rory had questions. What exactly was NEOM going to be? Who would build it and how quickly? Could Saudi Arabia and MBS actually pull this off? So he and a team of Wall Street Journal reporters started digging.

Over the past seven years, they've talked to dozens of people who moved to the Saudi desert to work on NEOM, and they've pored over thousands of pages of internal documents. What do you find most interesting about the NEOM story?

— I find everything interesting about the Neom story is the ambition. Like, it is a very, very ambitious project. It's one of the world's most ambitious projects. It is currently the world's biggest construction project. And so, you know, you could throw as many superlatives at it as you want, but it's a big deal. — But their reporting shows that the project is years behind schedule and projected to be trillions of dollars over budget. And MBS's dream of a desert utopia

is looking more like a nightmare. Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudsen. It's Friday, April 25th. Over the next two episodes, we'll be telling the story of Neon. This is part one, skiing in the desert. This episode is brought to you by Indeed.

When your fridge stops working, you don't sit around waiting for all your food to spoil. You find a solution. So why wait to hire the people your company desperately needs? Use Indeed's sponsored jobs to find great talent fast. It moves your job posts to the top of the page, so it's the first thing relevant candidates see when they start searching.

And it truly does make a difference. Sponsored jobs receive 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs, according to Indeed data. Plus, with sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You're only paying for results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.

Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash journal. That's Indeed.com slash journal right now and support the show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash journal. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. We asked for an interview with a Neom representative for this podcast, but Neom declined.

In a statement, a Neom spokeswoman said the project had started the year on, quote, a positive footing. She noted that like any large project, Neom continues to make changes to ensure its long-term success. She also said that Neom is, quote, unprecedented in terms of ambition and scale. This is how Neom supporters have often described it, as a breathtakingly ambitious, even utopian project.

Neom would be the next stage of human development, an experiment and a better way of living. But Neom was also supposed to be something else, a practical solution to some of the kingdom's most pressing problems. Well, a royal shakeup in Saudi Arabia. King Salman has promoted his 31-year-old son to become crown prince of the kingdom. Mohammed bin Salman was appointed... MBS was still in his early 30s when he assumed de facto control of Saudi Arabia.

His father, King Salman, named him crown prince in 2017.

— From the beginning, MBS was well aware that leading his country into the future would be a tough brief. — The kingdom faced a number of challenges that really were almost like a sort of ticking time bomb for a country that they'd have to solve. — Problem number one was demographic. Saudi Arabia's population was young and growing. — 70% of the kingdom's population were under 30, so MBS had to find ways to employ those people.

But that would be difficult because of problem two. 70% of Saudis were also employed by the government at that point. And why was that? It's because most of Saudi Arabia's revenues at the time were derived from oil. Oil. If you had a job in Saudi Arabia, you likely either worked for the state-run oil company or your government job, let's say a teacher, was paid using oil money.

Oil was what made the Saudi state run. It was oil all the way down. And MBS knew it couldn't last. We have a case of oil addiction in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, on the part of everyone. It's a serious issue. It's disrupted the development of many sectors in years past.

He could see on the horizon a time when the demand for oil would dry up. And so he understood that he needed to diversify his economy. He needed to diversify the government's revenue streams. He needed to create jobs for all these young people in his country. And he needed to get more people out of the public sector into the private sector. MBS started to tackle some of these big economic problems with social reforms.

When he came to power, men and women weren't allowed to socialize in public. Less than 20% of the workforce were women, and there wasn't much popular entertainment to speak of. MBS began to change that. A big day for women in Saudi Arabia, allowed behind the wheel for the first time as the world's last... He allowed women to drive and made it easier for them to enter the workforce.

He allowed men and women to mix freely in public. He opened cinemas for the first time in like 40 years, which was like a huge moment. The Hollywood film Black Panther is the first movie to be screened at an AMC Entertainment Theatre in Riyadh. Because how do you build a consumer economy? Give people stuff to spend their money on.

MBS's social reforms could only go so far, though. This was still Saudi Arabia. It was still a bastion of conservative Islam, still governed by Sharia law. So he's also thinking about, well, is there anywhere in the kingdom that I can just start with a blank canvas?

And so, as the story goes, he's looking at a map of Saudi Arabia and he's looking at all the different areas of his country. And he sees that there is this part of northwest Saudi Arabia where it's sparsely populated.

Here's MBS in a Discovery Channel documentary talking about the genesis of Neom. Northwest of Saudi Arabia, untouched, almost empty. It has a mix of topography, mountains, valleys, oases, dunes, beaches, islands, corals, from skiing to diving. That's the place. And he understands that it has a lot of the natural ingredients to make a new, exciting city-state within his kingdom.

The area MBS was planning to develop was huge, roughly the size of Massachusetts. And it wasn't a completely blank slate. There were villages there, and native tribes who'd been calling the area home for generations. They'd need to be relocated, by force if necessary. But for an authoritarian ruler like MBS, that didn't present much of an impediment. No, this area was a place where he could enact the radical changes the rest of Saudi Arabia wasn't ready for.

In Neom, foreigners would be welcome. It would have its own business-friendly legal system. It would be a home for new industries— tourism, media, biotech, clean energy— that could help diversify the Saudi economy. And it would be more socially liberal. Women could wear bikinis at the beach. There were even discussions about allowing alcohol. And so, MBS went to the people you go to to turn lofty, fantastical visions into reality— management consultants.

Neon brought in McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group, Oliver Wyman, like a who's who of the management consulting world.

Part of the reason he turns to management consultants is because there wasn't a lot of expertise in particular industries that he wanted to create at Neon. There wasn't really a tourism industry. There wasn't a tech industry. And so he needs outside expertise to try to help him deliver on this vision. And what these management consultants do is they put all their ideas together down in

More than like 2,000 pages of planning documents for what NEON might look like. More than 2,000 pages? Wow. Yeah, it was like the Wall Street Journal got access to these in around 2019. I remember the first thing I remember thinking is, how am I going to get through all these 2,000 pages to read all this stuff?

Those 2,000 pages are not a plan for NEOM per se. It's more like a brainstorming document of every conceivable amenity a city of the future could possibly have. And some of these ideas are straight out of sci-fi. There's an idea for like a Jurassic Park, like a theme park of robot dinosaurs.

There are flying taxis. Robots that would clean your house for you while you're out at work. Classes taught by hologram teachers. More Michelin-starred restaurants than anywhere else in the world. Some of the wildest ideas came from MBS himself.

These documents show how he, in board meetings, is like putting forward ideas for what he wants. You know, he wants a beach that will glow like your watch glows in the dark. And he's also keen on this idea of a moon that can rise

with drones every night at NEOM and become this sort of showpiece. This sounds like Las Vegas on acid. That is a great way of describing it. Yeah, yeah. In the end, the plans for NEOM roughly coalesced around five key developments, each with an appropriately dramatic name.

There was Magna, Neom's string of luxury beachfront hotels, Sindala, an island with a cluster of resorts, Oxagon, a port on the Red Sea, Trojena, a mountain resort, and then there was Neom's centerpiece, the actual city part of this futuristic city-state. It was called The Line. This is a wild idea. My colleague Elliot Brown spent years covering real estate.

The line is unlike any building he's ever seen, or even ever dreamed about, for that matter. At its full vision, it's absolutely enormous. If you just look at the square footage as envisioned, it would have more square footage than all of New York City. The line is a skyscraper, or rather two skyscrapers running parallel to each other. Each tower would stretch 1,600 feet into the air, taller than the Empire State Building.

and also run for 106 miles, roughly the length of Connecticut. Yes, that is two skyscrapers side by side running for 106 miles. In pictures, it's undeniably striking. Breathtaking, almost. The outside of the building would be covered with mirrored glass so that it reflects the desert landscape, blurring the line where the structure ends and nature begins. The entire complex would house around 9 million people.

But people would live inside of it. Like, you wouldn't have open air...

The middle would essentially be a giant atrium. Some people get a window view looking out. Other people get a window view looking in. And then there's this essentially 600-foot space between the buildings where sometimes it's open air. Sometimes it's parks sort of spliced between these buildings. You have some large venues like you'd have a stadium suspended between the two towers. MBS often would tell people he wanted zero-gravity architecture. Right.

What does that mean? Like architecture that looks like it defies physics. The idea of building a city in a line, that came from MBS's architects. But turning it into a skyscraper? MBS has said that was his idea.

You know, developers are generally always dreamers. And when I cover real estate, they'd often come up with like crazy ideas for, you know, a building that looks like a corkscrew and goes a thousand feet up. But at the end of the day, they'd have to convince other investors and banks to give them the money to do it. And if you had a thousand foot corkscrew, you wouldn't find enough investors and banks to do it. So they don't never get built. This is a structure where you don't have those guardrails.

That's because MBS is both the developer and the bank. MBS is the chair of Neom's board. In addition to being the chair of every sub-project within Neom, he's also the chair of Neom's main funder, Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund, home to about a trillion dollars of the country's oil wealth. If MBS wanted the line, he was in a good position to get it. The Saudi government and the Saudi wealth fund did not respond to requests for comment.

But why does MBS need the line? Why not just build a fancy yet achievable city? Yeah, it's a good question. I think it's early on in the planning of NEOM, in a meeting MBS goes to his urban planners, I want to build my pyramids. He's essentially thinking about NEOM in the context of the pyramids of Giza, which have been around for thousands of years. He wants to make that kind of physical mark on the land

So then it's not just about changing Saudi Arabia or even reinventing the idea of a city. It's also about...

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. MBS does want to create this city-state that drives economic change and reform in his kingdom and that allows the kingdom to diversify away from oil. But at the same time, he wants to make his mark and he wants to do that in a very, very eye-catching kind of way.

MBS was aware that his plans for Neom and Saudi Arabia were ambitious. He's often said that achieving even half of his ambitions would be a win and transformative for his country. But to achieve even a small percentage of the Neom vision would require a massive effort and huge numbers of people willing to move to a remote corner of the desert to make it all real. That's coming up.

This episode is brought to you by Cognigy. Customer service can be so frustrating. Waiting on hold, being transferred around, repeating yourself. So flip the script with Cognigy's Agentic AI. Their AI agents do more than automate. They collaborate. Seamlessly integrating into any system, Agentic AI works alongside your customer care team to deliver service, support, and experiences at scale, reducing costs and making customers happy. Experience Cognigy's Agentic AI at Cognigy.com slash happy.

The missing child is Lucia Blix, nine years old. Please, let her come back home safely. Thursdays. The kidnappers plundered meticulously. If money is what it takes to get her back, we're going to pay it. The secrets they hide. You can't talk about this. You can't write about it. Are the clues. The mother's hiding something, I know it. To find her. Tell me where she is. The Stolen Girl. New episodes Thursdays. Stream on Hulu.

Beginning around 2020, hundreds and then thousands of people packed up their lives and moved to the Saudi desert to deliver Neom, MBS's dream. One of them was Andy. My name's Andy Wirth. And where are you from, Andy Wirth? I live in southwestern Montana, about 45 minutes west of Bozeman, Montana.

Andy is an executive in his early 60s. For much of his career, he ran ski resorts, big ones like Squaw Valley and Alpine Meadows near Lake Tahoe. And yeah, I love skiing. I love snowboarding, alpine skiing, backcountry skiing, Nordic skiing, skate skiing. Quite honestly, Ryan, I've never met a mountain, a horse, a dog, or a pair of skis I didn't like. Andy will tell you he's been very fortunate in his career. He's made enough money to only take on projects he really cares about.

And in early 2020, he heard about one that seemed to fit that bill. Out of the clear blue sky, as Forrest Gump would say, I got this note over LinkedIn, I think it was, indicating there was some interest in having me come over to Saudi Arabia to work on this project called NEOM. What was NEOM as you understood it from this initial pitch? It was an effort to make more progressive the country, usher in a new era, if you will, for that country.

I'm not too sure if there's any slogans like make Saudi Arabia great again, but nonetheless, it was part of the vision that he had as the leader for that country to do many things in northwest Saudi Arabia. Among the things MBS wanted to do was develop Neom's Rocky Red Mountains. He and his advisors envisioned a luxury mountain destination with hiking, mountain biking, and yes, skiing.

Neom wanted to hire Andy to lead the mountain project and develop Saudi Arabia's very first world-class ski resort. What was the issue that first came to your mind? Well, snow. Natural snowfall. It might surprise you to learn that the Saudi mountains do get a dusting of snow in the winter. Not enough to ski on by a long shot. But to Andy, that wasn't a deal-breaker. It didn't deter me. It was really intriguing at a, call it a strategic level. ♪

But skiing wasn't what convinced Andy to sign on to Neom. Honestly, the intrigue of resort development was a bit of a shoulder shrug for me. What was a primary interest in what was really driving me was having Saudi Arabia, oil producing country for generations, fund what was ultimately a really remarkable project to demonstrate tourism.

the value impact of doing now what we should have been doing a generation or two ago on the fight against climate change. That's because NEOM aimed to be a 100% renewable energy project. And there was a poetic irony in that Saudi Arabia, world's greatest producer of oil for generations, that was going to fund this.

One of MBS's goals is to pivot the country away from oil. NEOM would be part of that. The project would be powered by wind and solar. It would pioneer green hydrogen production. And it would do so on a massive scale. Andy hoped it would be a proof of concept for the world. So I actually was digging on the contrarian nature of things. Counterintuitive, isn't it? He signed on to head NEOM's mountain sector. Another person who joined NEOM was Tony Harris.

So what was the pitch? The pitch for NEOM. The pitch for you to join. Oh, Ryan, I mean, very straightforward. You can do whatever you want to do. Tony works in educational consulting. And in education, you are thinking about programs, curriculums, how to make it better. Is that kind of? Yes, I'm thinking about how should we teach? What should we teach? And why should we teach it?

It might seem odd that Neom would recruit an educator. After all, it was primarily a massive construction project. But Neom's leaders were looking to the future. If Neom was going to be a world-class city, it would need world-class schools and experts to help build them. To Tony, Neom's pitch was irresistible.

Make up your own job title, make up your own job description, and come and make sure that we are among the foremost education ecosystems in the world. So who wouldn't want that? And let me not be coy with you, they were also paying a huge amount of money. That doesn't hurt. How much money?

The normal rule of thumb was take your highest paying job and add 30% to that. Tony signed on to help run Neom's education sector. His wife, who's also an educator, joined Neom too. Soon, they were on a plane headed to Saudi Arabia. They even took their yellow lab, Tanner. They flew to Riyadh, then to Tabuk, before making the two-hour drive to Neom. And what's a drive like? What do you see out the window?

So I don't know when the last time you were in Utah, but it's a little bit like that. It's a desert, not the sort of Lawrence of Arabia desert, but the sort of gravelly stone desert. It's quite mountainous, quite hilly. It's a scrabby place. You don't want to get out of the car. And then you arrive at the camp, and the very, very first thing that strikes you

is it really does look like a forward military base. The camp was encircled by high-security fencing. Inside were row upon row of identical white cabins. They kind of looked like mobile homes. This is where Neom's white-collar workers lived. And then the other facilities, there was a big communal dining hall. There was a swimming pool, a little gym. There was a small shop, a barber.

Just enough to sort of keep you going. There was also another population of foreign workers at Neom, the laborers who would actually be building this new city. They were mostly from South Asia, and Tony and Andy didn't see much of them. They lived in separate, even more cramped camps. At Neom, Tony hit the ground running. There was so much pressure to answer some basic questions, I soon found myself thinking,

rolling up my sleeves and just putting out fires. What curriculum should they use? How many teachers should they hire? Neom's consultants had gotten a head start on some of those questions, like figuring out how big Neom's student population would be. But Tony didn't find much use for their work. They had come up with this extremely complicated, convoluted Excel model, which would predict the number of kids that we were eventually going to have.

Elsewhere at Neom, Andy was also busy problem solving.

Given the lack of snow, Neom's consultants had suggested using a kind of synthetic material to ski on. It almost looked like carpet that could be rolled out along Neom's slopes. It's basically picture 14 billion toothbrushes, and that's the slope. I had skied on these kind of slopes, and they're just not very desirable. I saw that as being, we're going to have people ski for two hours, and we'll never see them again. Mm-hmm. Ain't going to work. Yeah. But...

What we could do is something that is very creative, I think. What if we actually had real snow? But to figure out if this could work, Andy would need data. Data he didn't have. We didn't have any maps. The good maps you use for this kind of environment are called LiDAR. It's basically very detail-accurate mapping. We were still working with Google Earth, for goodness sakes. And so Andy threw on his hiking boots to see what he could learn about the region he'd been tasked with developing.

I spent a great deal of time on foot up there in the mountains as we were collecting LiDAR-based maps. Hiking, climbing, climbing, hiking. On one of those hikes, Andy stopped by a small radar station operated by the Saudi Air Force. Turns out the staff there collected weather data. So I had ambient temperature measurements every hour going back 25 years.

And also it had humidity for the same thing. And so that was a goldmine. As far as snowmaking went, that data was actually encouraging. There were weeks during the winter when temperatures in Neom's mountains regularly dropped below freezing, at least for part of the day. That was a surprise and very interesting. Tell people you're building a ski resort in Saudi Arabia and the eyebrows go up pretty fast. But here was evidence that it could actually work.

We were going to be able to ski in the neighborhood of four hours a day between December 10th and March 15th. Skiing might have been 6 a.m. to 10 a.m., and we'd have to make snow every night, every moment possible, and there'd be plenty of times where we wouldn't be able to. But these charts from the Royal Saudi Air Force indicated we could pull this off. It wouldn't come cheap, though. Remember, this is the desert. They'd need to bring in water for snowmaking.

Andy also needed these very special and very expensive snowmaking machines designed to create snow and warmer temperatures. So when you do that math, it is financially not logical. It's in fact irrational. However, when one has access to unlimited capital, we could pull this off and that would be unique and special, so on and so forth. So it was sort of like, this is wild, but it's possible.

Yeah. That is, it's really effing wild, but possible. Andy told us he liked this part of the job. He liked figuring out how to do the impossible, how to ski in the desert. And there were Andes and Tonys all across Neom, laying plans to suspend stadiums in the air, build green hydrogen plants, desalinate water, build skyscrapers the length of Connecticut. Neom's builders were dreaming big.

But standing in between them and execution were massive challenges. Like runaway spending. We couldn't spend money quickly enough. We could not spend money quickly enough. Bad bosses. It was full-on The Shining, Jack Nicholson-type stuff. And the growing realization that all of this might be too expensive for even Saudi Arabia to afford. How would you describe the moment that we're in right now in the Neom story?

I think we're sort of in the rapidly colliding with reality phase. That's coming up in part two of our NEOM podcast, coming tomorrow. Before we go, I just want to say that these two NEOM episodes will be my last for a while. I'm going out on paternity leave through the summer, but I'll be back on the show in the fall.

That's all for today. Friday, April 25th. This episode was produced by Annie Minoff and edited by Catherine Brewer. Additional reporting in this episode by Stephen Kalin, Summer Saeed, and Justin Scheck. Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. The theme remix in today's episode is by Griffin Tanner.

The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. The show is made by With help from Trina Menino.

Our engineers are Griffin Tanner, Nathan Singapak, and Peter Leonard. Our theme music is by So Wiley. Additional music this week by Catherine Anderson, Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, Emma Munger, Nathan Singapak, Griffin Tanner, So Wiley, Audio Network, Blue Dot Sessions, and Epidemic Sound. Additional fact-checking this week by Mary Mathis. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.