4 Biggest Mistakes Parents Make | Michaeleen Doucleff
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I spent twelve, the years of M, P, R, covering mostly viruses, and they were syne around the world. What was really surprising to me, and why I went on this journey to, like, learn this other way of parenting, was when I came back to the go and I tried some of nix and methods. They work like, amazing on my little girl.

So what are some of these tips? I mean, you send IT up with an team. Yes, what is team? And like, let's make them practical for people.

So the first thing, tea is like this idea. A lot of the western relationship, parent child relationship, is based on control. The e is a different way. E is.

And the next one is autonomy.

Yeah, this was huge. If you could just change like one thing in your child's life is that .

would be and I guess we've sort of talk to that this a little .

bit in a circle. The is so praising is a really interesting topic that's very unique in western society. In my entire travels, i've never seen a because not necessary .

that we do video games. It's like seven, eight. Every day I have your homework done.

I would cut .

out everyday. I can, yes.

but they don't need IT. I don't.

I know what you know. If parents are listening to this now, is sixteen year old addicted to their phone? yeah. What are the tangible things they can do? And next one.

one to like help. So here's how IT works.

Welcome to the knowledge project to buy weekly podcast, expLoring the powerful ideas, practical insights and mental models of others in a world where knowledges is power. This podcast is your tool kit for mastering the bus what other people have already figured out on your host shame perish before we dive in, I have a quick favorite to ask if you're enjoying the show and listening on apple podcast, spotify or another platform.

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My guest is my clean due club, author of hunt, gather parent and a global explore of parenting practices. Her work takes us on a journey across cultures, revealing profound insides. The chAllenge are modern assumptions, I guess, about raising children.

At the heart of her discoveries lies the acronym team together, encourage autonomy and minimal intervention. These four principles draw from the wisdom of indigenous communities around the world, offering a road map for Fostering resilience, independence and emotional well being in our children. SHE shares her observations on how different cultures approach parenting and how their practices can help alleviate the burns replace on our self and our children.

We also explore the role of technology, modern parenting and its impact on our children's development. SHE offers particle strategy for navigating digital landscape and Fostering meaningful in our families. It's surprising how often we give our kids orders.

Do this, don't do that. And in this conversation, you'll learn a Better approach that encourages critical thinking, empathy and problem solving skills that works on and tees. I tried to make this episode as practical as possible.

So what we learn, insights from other other cultures, how do we put them into practice? And our culture mclean chairs insights on how we can create environment that allows our children to take appropriate risks, learn from their mistakes and grow into confident, capable individuals in a world that sometimes pushes back. Listening to this episode will give you another perspective on parenting, the draws from the collective wisdom of cultures around the world. As with anything, take what works and ignorant rest. It's time to listen and learn.

I want to start with our parent. Have we collectively lost our way as parents?

Western society has kind of veered off the past, you know, and kind of gone into this valley of strange parenting valley, where we've yeah we ve ve lost side of, like what kids actually need, what the parent child relationship actually needs to really function.

What's different?

So there are so many things that they are different. One anthropologist said that there's about forty to fifty things that we do as parents that you can't really find anywhere else. Accept in places that are western ize.

And then there's like four or five things that we are really missing that are really key to raising a child that you enjoy being with, raising a child that's helpful and respectful and confident. I mean that if you look at our data right in western society, we have this epidemic of children who are who have kind of lost confidence. And then for sure, we have children that like we struggle to get them to help, right, and be helpful around the house and kind of work together as a team. And so there is a couple of things that we're not doing that really support that.

How do we get .

here is a is a big question. But I did back to lake, probably the fifteen hundreds in europe. Um IT actually one scientist thinks and has this whole theory and book about how IT dates back to the catholic church.

Um we can talk about that. But in general, what's happened is we've we've lost the parenting teachers. That's I think, a really key aspect of IT that traditionally you have a child, often very Young, you know in your and your parents or air or neighbor will teach you to raise IT that baby.

And then by the time you have a second or third baby, you kind of know, right? But now, like me, when I had my daughter basically had me, this baby sent me home, and I was like me by myself. Good, good.

exactly. They did. You know, my husk always says, like, we took all these broken classes.

But he was like, why did we take on this parenting classes? Like, now what do we do not? You know, i'm so that I think around seventeen hundred hundreds of doing that really started to get going, losing this kind of the teachers.

And then parents started turning to the medical industry and parenting experts. And you can see the progression of lake. What do we do? We don't really know what to do.

And so where hunt parents are hungry for these, they were pallet basically from orphanages that doctors had made to still like, say, how can do you raise like forty kids, right? And they turned into these like parenting manuals and books that we're very popular because parents start really knowing what to do. Parenting books today, you can trace all way back to those athletes is really incredible.

And of course, they weren't the way you raise children in a home. Now, in a family, they were for these institutions. Basically.

I think I remember listening your interviews. You mentioned like the number one sleep book is by some dude in eighteen hundred who didn't .

even have kids yeah he was like a sports writer and he was about golf, I think. And he was also super in the guns and he actually blew his hand off and stuff. And he like, I think he saw like there was like this market for parenting advice and he wrote, yeah lic. He was one of the first ones to really write about sleep training, which is totally crazy, like around the world, like leaving a baby to cry. It's a very unique style and he was kind of one of the first people to suggested and recommend IT.

Can we come back to like the catholic church and and sort of like we're not taught how to be parents here, is that by product of like all of us working more more and living in a busiest society?

Or is IT the theory is, and it's it's really fascinating, was that before the fifteen hundreds, people in europe lives like people ever in the world. And these big kind of clans are groups like groups, like family, like big, and not like all one house, but kind of in the same neighborhood and he was um you know we was like communal living, right?

And this is this is how children raised for hundred, hundred, thousands of years and these kind of big groups and there's a lot of data to support that. And that's how europeans were doing IT. And then the catholic church came along, I about the fifteen hundreds, and started having these laws to prevent close cousins from marrying and having children, which is totally legitimate.

Like biologically, you don't want to mere your first cousin and have a child. But over time they started extinct IT out to, like second, third, fourth, fifth, six cousins. I mean, you and I six cousins, right? But we not related at all.

And whether this was intentional or not, what I did was IT broke up. This like big a family living. And right, because if you couldn't marry any more into these groups, and IT really like took intergenerational living and squashed IT down slowly and slowly to what we now think of is like the nuclear family.

So you go from living an environment where, you know, as a mom, I would have clearly an older sibling. I'd have a aunt and uncle, i'd have a cousin. I have this, all these people that are like helping me.

And I would be watching, as I grew up, other children being raised, right? That's a big element too, right? Like by the time I was sixteen, i'd probably seen like five children get raised from somebody in this big group, right? So that I mean, if you look around the world, that's how people learned a parent. That's how the skill the craft is, like pass down through watching and then when you have your own teaching.

But if you live, if you squashed down the family and you like mother and father only, and you're right, one parents is out of the home, a lot or two parents are at the home, then you've no longer have you never, you no longer watch people being raised. Maybe you get one kid, one sibling, right? And then you don't have any help us.

And this professor at harvard has like tracked down the the rise of the nuclear family correlates with how long ago the catholic church was uh h brought into a society. And so you rope is the longest and you you see this very strong nuclear family and the other parts of the world, you know, it's been introduce more recently and you still see into generation living in these big family units, but is not the only factor. I think lots of other things have come about to kind of support the creation of the nuclear family and um the reduction of the people in our life's raising children.

And we have the same right like a taxi village to raise kids. But that sounds like we don't actually create the village anymore.

That's right. And and I spending because I always say like IT doesn't take a village. IT takes like five extra people like you know because if you look in some society, so they are called allow parents this is what um scientists called in there are people in children's lives that are just as close to the child and just as important to the child is the mother and the father do their their other parents basically and if you look in most societies, children have like four, five of these very close. In some societies they have like twelve over fifteen, but they're not very close.

But there's amazing studies in some societies were like abid though track like how many times a baby is is passed around to a different person in like an hour, two hours. And it's like something like ten or eleven people and like an hour, like just regularly think about that. Like when you had your kids, like if you had ten people, like constantly helping you hold the baby, feed the baby, like how much different your life would have been.

have a lot more things.

You'd have a lot for kid, and you'd have a lot like less stress, right? You know, when I was traveling with rosie, my my logo, we were in tanzania, and we were with these women raising. They had the little ones, the babies in the todgers because the other ones were at school and they would IT was a group of like six women and they would spend all day long together helping each other with the be, the todgers and the big all day long.

I'm talking like ten, twelve hours a day. IT was amazing right from the same point of lake social support, right? And then I I got back home and IT was just me, like in this condo with the kid. And I was, I was, the difference was so dark.

So before we sort of cover how we undo all of this, like, what did you learn? You traveled around the world. You have found four different tribes that all taught in in a sort of different way. What are the key lessons that came out of that? Why is that important?

Reporter, and I spent thirteen, twelve years and M, P, R, covering mostly viruses, and they was send me around the world. And I started to notice while I was traveling, that parents didn't seem to have the same struggles as we did. You know, there were clearly struggles, their struggles everywhere i'm going to romancist IT.

But what was really surprising to me and why I going on this journey to like learn this other way of parenting was when I came back to same just go and I tried some of these techniques and methods because that's really what they are um they worked like amazing on my little girl in urban go. Like it's surprise IT really surprised me how quickly our relationship improved. He was like to at the time when I really started to try this.

So what are some of these tips? I mean, you sounded up with an accurate me of team, yes, but let's make them what is team? And like, let's make them practical for people.

So the first thing, tea is like this idea, like together, humans, homosapien s are these incredibly social creatures. We, that's what separates us from, like, other homes, species, that we are social. And not only that, we want to be with people, we want to help people. And children are born wanting to help everyone knows in our society.

And so the first thing is really is let your children help you, even when they can do that, right? So we have this, their studies that show this, like, american parents are asked this question of, like, you're doing the laundry and your little two euro comes over and start throwing the clothes like all over the place, like what do you do and the the american mom's says something the eupeptic an momma is something like, I get mad because she's making a mess and I told to go play right, or to go watch cartoons right. And then they asked the same question to a mia mom.

And my mom say something like, I get kind of mad because she's making you a mess where IT starts off kinds similar and then he says, but i'm really excited that he wants to help with the laundry. And so the mayo m sees the little toddlers mess as this like sign of interest in helping. It's a very different view of the child, right? It's a very pro social view.

And then he says, so I start teaching her how to do the laundry. And one of the mom even says that the the little girls like like sometimes balls up the laundry and he says, I can see she's trying to foldit right was where I would say she's bowling of the london being a ball, right? This, you know, the other view is that SHE wants to help that.

We are these social creatures, and we we have this huge desire to help, starting off just firmly from day one. In many, many parts of the world, parents immediately say, yes, come help and keep the child there and have the child at least watch or give the child a very small test to do. And so that's really the tea.

Never turned down a child's request to help. Like when I was getting ready for this pig has like, rosy wanted to do my hair, he wanted do. And they IT was like, yes, my job as a parent, I see, is to find a way that he can actually help and the my of famous have some saying about IT like it's your your job to find the purpose in the child's life, to find the opportunities for the child to have purpose.

Don't push them away, because if you keep pushing them away by the time there seven or eight and they actually can start kind of helping, they're not stupid. They're like, that's not my job, you know, like you've pushed me away for six years, why would I help you now? You know and there's data that showed that that kind of what happens.

The kids, they learn their place in the home is my place playing and watching video games, playing vio games, watching T, V. Years of my place. Like helps with dinner with .

under as hard as we .

think IT is. But again, I think you have to change your view of the child, right? You have to instead to saying, oh, he doesn't want to help.

He never helps. He's never gonna help. Don't ask, right?

Can you imagine, right, if SONY said that at work? Don't ask him. He's never, he's no good at this. Like how bad that would make you feel, right? So it's like actually starting to see there's a little flame inside the child that actually really does want to help.

I think you can turn IT around.

E is this idea that like a lot of the western relationship, parent child relation is based on control, that the parent tells the child what to do and they are supposed to listen because they're the .

child and the authority .

and the authority, right? And that's kind of just said the e is a different way. E is we're gona encourage children to do the right thing, and and really we're gonna get them to figure out what the right thing is themselves. And every time you try to control a child, you create conflict.

You a risk creating conflict because, you know, the child can get mad because they don't want to be told what to do or you're gonna back because they are not doing IT right? And so another way are doing IT is like, okay, i'm gonna IDE you. I'm going to encourage to do the right thing.

And you know it's okay if, like nine, sometimes you don't, because this is the long game. But i'm gna use all these tools I have in my toe bucks to get you to learn, to figure out what the writing is, to learn to, to think. When I went travel out, I knew they were like tools that culture use to get children to figure things out and instead of just telling them what to do.

Um but I I had no clue how many there were. There are so many, it's amazing and they are very they can really change like the whole dynamic ic between the parent in the child, what the edas, the encouragement is IT gets the child to feel like i'm making decisions for myself. I'm in charge of my life. You know, my mom has confidence that I can do IT. And so there is this this ease that starts to happen with with the parent in the child.

So what are those tools?

So one of the the amazing with smaller children is stories like we are. There's good evidence that humans are really made to learn through story. And when we were acting with the hazara, this hand gather, commit, intense, and yet they were using stories to teach me the rules. So when we got to the camp, they didn't just list off, you know, very like americans feel like here are are the rules. And like, you know, like this is what you can do.

You can do no around the fire they would tell these stories and some of they were about where you went to the bathroom and they were taking like this isn't about you 的 like you know is clearly about me know are they they saying songs that had stories and them for children um so this is a way of like putting the ideas into the child's mine in a way that one they can really understand because they don't like yang children don't understand logic， but also like a wave. Like again, they're going to figure that out through these story. So that's a huge one for Younger children as even from your children, there's all these ways of leg asking questions, telling them consequences, kind of these little puzzles that you set up for them.

Another big one is the environment, like just setting up the environment so they can't get themselves in trouble or they're less likely to, right? So I mean, the list goes on and on. There's a beautiful examples. Like when we were up in the arctic, rosy was kind of like during these rocks up in the air like this. And the little nine year old rosy was three at the time and little nine year year old comes over and says you're going to hurt somebody with those rocks and really you kind of SAT there and like looked and then dropped the rocks .

and the nine year old walk away like IT wasn't um no.

it's and that's what the parents do. It's like, I mean, I think if was he was throwing and like IT would be different. But it's if you really stop and look at most situations.

you and one of the stories that would probably resonate with people you told the book is how a rosy was giving the fridge door open.

yes. So when I, when I first traveled to the arctic, the moms will tell me these stories like to get, it's to wear their heads in the winter because they would get frosty on their ears. And they will tell them that, like they didn't like, that their heads would get chopped off, and that the northern lights would use their heads of soccer balls.

All these very kind of scary stories. And I was like, no, i'm never doing that. That's one of the things readers right to me about, like one of the things like, I can never do this, you know.

And then when I got back, rosie had the refrigerator and I was, seeing there close the frigging door. Could you know, just kind of nagging her, which is the big tool we use over over again. And then I was like, trying logic, you know, the electricity? Dad, dad, dad, I was very frustrated with her.

And then I turned her and I said, there was a monster in that for the reader. And he, when he warms up, he's coming, oh god, she's coming out. And I kind of make IT very dramatic and kind of fun.

And like these stories are often kind of a wink. And I like the kid, kind of knows it's a story. And SHE like, slim, the first your door was like, looked at me and he was like, tell me more, mama, tell me more about this monster.

And IT SHE was at three and three and half at the time, three and like, changed our whole relationship. We just started using stories for everything because the way we could communicate, like with her, like we weren't communicating with her otherwise, oh, we had we had so many stories. And like when she's not, she's eight and like around six or seven, SHE kind knew the stories were were fake and SHE kind of didn't want to hear for well. And then he wanted to, again, like I was like, because even as adult, you like stories.

I mean, we stop these stories. This is the the right. So we use them as warnings. We use them as very tales. We use them as.

I mean, reason is entertainment, right? Like one of the scientists I talk to because again, parents are very like I was like this is too scary, you know um but then one of the scientist I was talking to said, yeah but look at a disney movie like is wait scare here like you know then you know because also i'm i'm there I can see the point is not to scare her to death to communicate. Parenting is about transmitting values.

Is there a difference between encouraging and sort of praising? Because we seem really good at praising kids.

So you picked the Green park.

Very amazing. My child's genius, you know. So praising .

is a really interesting topic that very unique in western society. You don't, in my entire travel, i've never seen a parent praise a child. I is not necessary.

Is IT more subtle? Or they just don't do IT at all. I think that .

there is some that's more subtle if you think the parents not doing anything, but then you look and there is like this subtle signals are happening, which also speaks the fact that we could be a lot more some children.

you know yeah or .

like pat on the shoulder or one of the mom said that I would hug the child, you know, to thank them. But praise really just came about the last like thirty years. Like i'm forty seven and like my mom was really express, my dad was.

So i'm of right at the generation where the praise kind of and there's a whole back story to IT about why IT happened um but praise is a tRicky beast. Praise can motivate children but they can also demotivate. It's like depends on how it's done context IT is this the child does the praise actually kind of fit with what you're doing? And I mean, it's we have the since that all praises is good and it's not I tell parents like .

you can just stop before we get to autonomy, let's double click on that which the different stream could praise and bad praise.

I mean, I don't think psychology know and I think that's one of the problem. I think this over the top praise that you're talking about, I don't think kids notes fake and in some ways it's manipulative. I think the promise, we don't know.

We don't know. How much praise helps kids? Because it's an experiment.

It's brand new. how? How do we get? In this eighties.

there was this whole push from the california government. There was this idea that like the reason why kids started to use drugs and this behavior because they had poor self steam, and that the way to help kids to have was to raise them, have that gives them good, have a team. But there was the data, don't support IT at all.

There was no data. It's just, again, like this, miss that bubble up but you you don't need do I think I I come from a previous position in the sense that like i've seen many, many families not praise children in like the kids are like amazing and have enormous amount of confidence and self steams. So it's like it's just not required.

I think what's more important in what motivates kids, and there's a lot of data to support this. What motivates kids is having them actually contribute to your life, you know, having them be part of your life and contribute in IT. I mean, you know, as a person who works that you feel good and motivated when you help and you do something and you accomplish something and that, I mean, there's tons of data psychology to support that. What motivates kids, not when somebody goes on and on about, oh my god, amazing. So just the .

orientation where we are, you have the acronym team together, and we've talked about encouraging. And the next one is autonomy.

Yeah, this one is huge. If you could just change like one thing in your child's life, that would be to give them two hours, an hour week of autonomy. If you look at one together, communities around the world.

So, you know, humans spent two hundred thousand years at hundred gether. That's where brains of ove, that's where we evolved, right in this context. And so looking at together, communities around the world offers some clues kind of to how the conditions in which we involved in IT doesn't say exactly, but kind of gives you some clues. And if you look in a lot of different continents, children have enormous amounts of autonation in these communities, which implies that how the the child of all right, the child's brain was to have .

a lot of autonomy. I mean, I was working to school at seven. I like two kilometers.

exactly like IT wasn't that long ago. In a society that we had, the perspective connect is like, we need IT, you know? And then there's this data that shows that kids that don't have IT are more anxious, more pronto to depression. And like so there's just times a data, it's like we need autonomy. Children need autonomy, but I think parents don't know what that looks like.

So what does autonomy look?

The best way to figure this out is to put your stop watch on where when you're with with a child in the morning at at the grocery store is somewhere, and give no commands to the child, no verbal instruction to the child for twenty minutes, and see if you can do IT.

I mean, because scientists have done this analysis, I do this analysis like in different communities, and like in places where children have a tony, parents give children like two to three verbal inputs in an hour. And i've done IT IT on myself. I've done IT with parents and series go, and we are talking about like a hundred and twenty verbal inputs per hour, just a constant stream.

Do this, do that.

don't do this. Say that. Say thank you. Would like I mean, you can just you can see IT like it's just a constant praise because IT is a form of like kind of manipulative behavior.

right, which creates a power struggle in some oh.

can create for some some children are fine. Some children appear fine with IT, right? They just kind of, I call them like rules.

They kind of go down into a little shell and kind of, okay, you know, and some children is horrible. When I was really the book and region, zed relationship is really changing. If we were in a hard time and we were arguing a lot, I would do this.

I put my start watch on and my phone and I would say, OK, i'm going to be quiet. I'm going I can give physical, physical input, right? Like you're talking about more subtle, like some I movement.

I can move here. You know, if she's doing something that I can take something, right? I can do physical things, but I can no talking to her.

嗯。

And IT was amazing team, like how quickly that improves our relationship.

What can I do? Two teenagers from to encourage autonomy. Like what does that look like?

What defends of weird at how much they are ready .

doing on their own. I used to send them to grocery stores and home. They're and now I got a lot of push back for that from society.

Yes, yes. I just let them walk to school. And I got a lot of push back from society one one aside from this. So you um my Youngest came home one day and I had asked him to get a red pepper and you got a Green pepper like we will go back to the store and that and he was like, I think eight or nine at the time and he goes back to the store and then he comes home and I was like, was the different in Price and he is like home and I was like, what did you do is like I put the Green pepper on the .

shop and I red pepper because why would you .

be any different like I paid for the first time just a exactly this is a funny story IT seems like society, I guess has a maybe it's just my feeling, I don't know, like it's push back .

on this day is not just a feeling. There's huge data on this. And one, David lancy, one of the anthropic that I say a lot, the book cause IT like the string wrapping of kid children .

is so afraid of their safety, are not afraid of their parents of the one an iron, do you know.

like society as a whole is afraid of their safety. And there are parents. They are like, I think we are kind of probably in the minority right now. But like, so roses eight SHE started going to the store.

We live in that right now at six thousand percent town, you know, america, I don't know about canada, but i'd bet it's the same as the service has ever been. Like then when we were kids and SHE got she's got to pulled by the cars to went time, they broke her home and back the car. So I mean, we've got to push.

There's absolutely huge push back. I've had to be like, this is what we value. You know, my cousin I set down like what do we do? You know we we've thought about going to the police, so we dot with the police and we told them like and the police actually emitted like it's she's fine yeah .

yeah but if the neighbors .

that we're calling, you know and so we've also made her look Better, like the optics of IT. We've like she's on the bike now and you know, SHE looks less SHE looks morally, she's in charge. We asked that there's a great there's a great orgasm on let grow. I don't know if you know about is, but it's it's all about empowering parents and children to give their tad more economy and they have these little licenses that you can print out to say like i'm rosey, do clear and my parents allow me to go to these places yeah and i'm allowed to talk to strangers as i'm talking to you right now and like is that we printed that out for her and but is hard but is worth .

IT I don't know like what can I do like so okay.

they're thirteen .

one thirteen once fourteen.

I mean, autonomy is also like what is the child want to do that? They can't because they feel afraid or they feel like they know they can't do IT because of parents or society, whatever. And then helping them kind of achieve those goals.

So I guess like maybe an example, like what comes to mind with a with my kids would be like, do I give complete autonomy, which is they come home? You know, this is dinner time. You help up with tour, you contribute to the or do I provide like a structure around this? Or it's like let's go what to do tomorrow and I tell them what to do? You know like how do you think about that between structure and autonomy?

I think at thirteen and fourteen, I would not help them structure their time. But if they if they don't have the ability.

do you do see you i'm saying if they're capable of doing IT, let them do IT. If they're not, give the structure but .

not the instructions.

give the encourage, right?

Like go back to the e.

So what would that look like? I'm happy exposing all my part.

I mean, i'm just it's really fascinating, right? Because like we have this sense in our this is another weird thing we do is that like we think okay at this age, they need to do this, you know and I would ask parents, like what what age can they use a knife and the parent would just be like, depends on the child, you know.

And so that's why I am like, kind of like where where are they with IT, right? Because one of the one of the publishers said to me, well, I my my child's eleven and I opened up the back door and said, you're free now. You have a tony y now and he just stood there yeah, exactly.

I'll tell you, like chickens, we'll just stand there too if they have been inside a now SHE was like, but he didn't want to tony me and I was like, she's eleven. She's never had that so SHE can't just like, yeah, you can just tell me to go run and play outside after eleven years of not right? So that's why i'm asking you, like where are they? But I think the idea is like don't do things for them like ever, like ever, you don't need to, especially thirteen fourteen.

It's like but if they can't manage their time or they can't figure, okay, what's next because it's that's a skill. There's actually a study looking at this in. It's a fascinating study.

IT looks at parents that are more western ized who managed the child's time. Okay, now you're doing dinner. Now are you doing choice? Now you doing this? Now you're doing that.

And then more a little more like team parenting, like my like where the the children manage their own time in the in the study, they these are like nine ten rules in the study, they show that the kids that are in that kind of more flexible environment take initiation. They start their homework themselves, they like, but IT takes time. That's a that's a skill when that's one of the things I.

To parents like when you are managing your child, when you are kind of their personal system and you're managing their time like block hour by hour, you're kind of doing a medis because you they're not able to learn this skill of like what do I do next yeah and you know, like get your job, like my job I sit down the more like what do I do that a big part of the job is like, okay, I got to and read this person. I get set this email, I got to read this part, I got to read this part right. And that's the skill.

IT takes time. So I would start if I if I don't know, i'm not trying to say your child doesn't have that, but if if if I felt like my child didn't have that, I would start trying to teach, teach them that you know, like what you have in your play tonight. Yeah, you know what would you do? questions. Questions .

exactly. Like, you know that .

so we actually school. And so I love that because I get to say, I tried these things and lots of kids, you know, like, as time has gone on, I got, we're confident because I ve tried them on all these kids in this school. And like the questions were from .

every kid and the questions are designed to get them to think about the next step instead of you giving the instruction that's telling them what to do.

That's right. We have one little boy who he's eleven. He's very smart, great reader, great math. But he cannot do anything that I don't tell him kind of the next step like we were just making a valentine state cards and then hang you monetary for the teacher.

And he was literally staying there with the two pieces of the yarn and was like, do I do next? And I was like, what do you think you do next? And I took about five minutes for him to figure out that he needs the .

tired and put on the tree and just let him GLE with IT. Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting and that I M I guess we've sort of talked .

about this a little bit. Yeah, it's together that is like minimal interference this kind of a little bit what we're getting at. It's like we think that good parenting I thought the good parenting was maximum interference. Like I was always trying to figure out what do I tell next, okay, always looking out for like the next thing to say and like one parent even told me I forgot who he was, but he told me, sometimes I have to really hold myself back from interfering to see if they can do IT know that there's just like a magic moment where you wanted jump in, and that's when they're alike. But if they need your help.

you jump in. How do we learn that as parents? Because you've first so long and then the team is.

obviously, I tell parents, I started IT was I would take rise to the beach. I would take her to an environment where he had room a lot of autonomy. I know the peach doesn't sound like that to a lot of parents, but like I had taught her like not to go into the water. And then I would just sit there like hours, and I would read and work and just let her live. And that was how I practice IT you get the confidence that like， oh, the kid, I don't need interfere so much and when I don't interfere, SHE does she's so happy and she's, you know, I can work in my I can do my life and like, I think you just have .

to try IT and SHE didn't want to play with you and he did.

He didn't to play with me. I especially if there was like, not other kids around, there's something I would just say, no, I am reading right now. You know, I mean that another thing is, like most side's parents don't play with children .

yeah like a baby is a little .

bit but other the sort, like figured .

out imagination stop. I feel like I have to entertain you.

So that is another huge one, huge difference. And this is one that I think the most stressful things is like this feeling of, what do you do with your time, with your kids? Kids do not need to be entertained.

They have not been entertained for like hundred thousands of years, two hundred thousand years. They do not need IT. Like I say, like you can welcome them into your world and teach them how to be in your world. But when there in their world you can be there tea for together, but you don't have to do anything.

There's a lot of differences between the world's of these tribes and our world. Yes, some of those differences are food. Yes, technology. Well, both others are changing culture.

culture.

uh, in terms of women roles and whether they work or not, how they contribute, how do you think that affected how they are raising kids? Is that specific to that environment? How does that affect our environment? What's the same? What .

different in unity north of us right now? In canada, there was lots of technology .

OK .

in lots of processed foods. interesting. Yeah, I mean, met community last.

but like they are eating for the loops for breakfast thing anyway.

Yes, lot of them, yes, let them. But I mean the mind them more, there were more traditional foods kind of made every day in every day, but they had the hazard bit IT was no technology, very little western nights process food, so is very different. So I think the food is interesting question because like this really control children in control us kind of in ways I don't what what .

do you mean by that?

Like I think I think technologies is probably easier to talk about. I mean, it's designed to make the child use IT. It's not a secret right to shape the child's behavior and their activities. And so it's it's hard to be as a parent till just let that go.

So how is IT impacting these kids though? Like kids today, I mean, my kids are maybe an exception, but most kids, long before they hit thirteen, thirteen, have iphone. right？ So the .

mayor is very fascinating. The mayor, many of the parents told me that they don't get a phone until they .

can pay for IT. But you can do that when everybodys in collective, when you're the only great.

My, so how did you do IT you know.

all I just think about my parents did like I don't care about john y down three yes, yes, yes. I I feel that Price in you know that he was the there's two kids and his classes didn't have a phone and great eight, he was the only one have a phone. And he feels that because he feels sort of like laugh out, right? These guys are these you know, my classroom mates are doing something and i'm not I can't be a part of the way that we've talked about this inside our house is like, okay, going into great night, you can have a phone. We can take your phone to school with you um and you have to wait at least year before if to show me that you can be responsible with IT before you can have other apps on your phone that aren't sort of like games right like so before you can have instagram. My whole path with this is like i'm hoping schools band phones .

by the by and they well.

ontario came out yesterday and that the band phones in in all schools have until the end of great twelve which I think is a great idea personally um and i'm hoping we get to this place with sort of like that chat and the media and some of that stuff before he is something like all of delaying.

right? I mean, yeah, I think that is the world they are .

growing up in the world where they have to co exit with technology and we know how addictive IT is. So you know all the site you're eighteen and giving them a phone is also probably not the vast strategy.

Interesting because they all, they did a show that when they get the phone IT, that makes them more lonely, yeah.

that makes them more icon. My conversation, JoNathan, that actually totally, I was like, admit no phone. Uh, I don't care if the push back is like, i'm gonna slow all this as long as I can. And he told me every year you can delay IT makes .

a huge difference, absolutely. Because they have like a prefrontal cortex, right? The anyone were really interesting, because they have tons of video games, tons of TV, like the the grandmother we were with was like SHE spent like A A week out in the blind hunting cable. And then S A S like very the technology and never like completely squeeze out the other life, right?

How is that possible? Because it's designed, and I say this, as you know, it's designed to .

make a design tweet .

out there, no o boy or girl and their own technology like how do you limit how do they limit that his parents?

I mean, I think some of IT is like i'm not thing that you would know how to do this at all because um I don't want to get that impression but I think delays absolutely the right word for many reasons but also it's about making sure that IT is like you're talking about IT is not the way IT works in the brain is is that narrow your desires and wants to this to this one thing that's that's what happens over time.

I mean, you see IT with kids, right? This is like all they do is art is on their phone, right? They're do nothing else. And I think that to me is like the key and it's what you're talking about is like having these spaces in time in valuing of other things in and we can talk about this for like an hour. We could like go on and on about this um they feel we could attend IT, but no.

let's take a clock on this what sort of the big point here because this is something when I talked other parents, it's a hot topic to talk about yeah when I talk to schools is a hot topic. People wanna know a more about IT.

They also wanna know sort of like where where they can take to so right? So if if parents are listening to this number of sixteen world addicted to their phone, what are the tangible things they can do in the next one month and the next months, the next three months, to sort of like help? okay?

So here's how IT works in this. But i'm just ring about right now our brains are these little prediction devices, right? And when I walk into an environment, my brain does a quick calculation of where am I going to to get my rewards in this very and when the maximized the rewards.

And kids are even more this way, because their brains are, the preferred courses is less reward or less develop. If a child walks into the living room, and every time they walked into that living room. For the last like five years of their life, they've played on the video game.

They've looked at their phone. Their brain is just lighting up like of firecrackers. They're going to use the phone. It's a, it's gonna cluded out everything else never. I pick up a book because the phone is designed to do that. So the only way you can bring back these other things into their life is to create environments where their brain knows they can't have IT.

You have to. So does that me like a technology free weekend?

Does that mean look IT around? So that's like the kind of the desire, like the way we talk analytic sabic is. And hours, where were not is the other way around. Life is without IT, and these are the times we have IT.

Oh, interesting.

Because in your brain relaxes, I can because again, your brain is just it's just it's a prediction device that just is predicting where do I get these things and if IT knows, like I never get IT.

if it's very well reinforcement.

then you're h just that there is very important is the tip, the iceberg of the of the .

the tools they use to create this no video game. Some days at four, I can get IT .

at some days and you move IT around and around.

As a parent, you create this sort .

of I I don't know, it's interesting because you could think of the moving in that does a very interesting question to these. I read both in these books like you should do at the same time. So you do at the same time, the brain will know. The brain will know. And if you don't do that at that time.

you'll get lake. So this what we currently do and like give me the best practices here because i'm making the shot up as I O but it's like, okay, we do video games. It's like seven, eight every day.

Have your homework done, cut out every day. Oh, I can't. Yeah, they learn a lot from the tiguan. I I mean, I would argue they actually learn a lot from beauty. Well.

I mean, that's another thing is like screens or not, screens right? IT depends on what they're actually playing, right?

But they don't need IT. I don't I don't what you know, there's there's an element of your right they don't eat IT. There's an element of all the friends are giving .

IT playing those video games yeah but I mean they don't need .

every day oh god, I think you know if you were a survey parents, the fact that I give them like eight hours a screen time a week is .

probably on the extremely low and is .

eight hours a screen time.

I mean, I think again, that depends on what they're doing, depends on the kid, depends on their rewards center. There's all these genetics involved in, like I have this incredibly addictive personality, like I can get I basically addicted to gmail, right? Like interest on here.

So like I I can get like would play him, man, we like play IT again. You so like for me an hour a day playing bigger wouldn't be good OK. You know, I think for some kids IT won't be good.

What I do change what they play. So if they mean to each other, after consistently, we talked about this, right, like we took away a certain video game a while ago because I was like, hey and I warned them, right, don't like I notice, hey, you guys in iraq, after you place, I don't like IT, that's not what we do.

And that song, how we treat anybody little on our family and then I came going on, was like her here, you just can't play this video game anymore so and then I came back two years later, the game yeah was like, do you want to try again? Like, you know, they're like, we wanna play. I'm like, okay, but you know why we lost IT, right? Like so if that has the same impact, we're going to have the same results.

So I think you said like the key thing here, we always think about time, hours of whatever screen, but is like that like I think we need new recommendations, A A P from all the societies, because an hour of screen time today can be so different, first of all, what you're doing. And then it's so different. An hour screen time when I was a kid, yeah right? This is not the same.

So I think you have to exactly what you're saying. You have to like what happens during that hour screen time? How is the kid behave? What is what do they behave like afterwards, right? Like how does that they can feel like? Why do we need to do things? Why do kids need to do things where they feel worse afterwards?

Me more about this feeling worse is that like when I I try to end IT and they won't let me end IT is IT how they treat people? Like what does that mean to feel?

I think it's it's a lot. I mean, I think you're you're doing exactly what i'm saying. It's it's like session .

like i'm really just making this stuff like this is I have no idea what i'm doing. I'm just trying to think like, okay, maybe let's figure this out.

One thing is that just because the child wants IT doesn't mean it's actually like pleasureable, of course, right? And so I think a lot of parents think that hope they wanted so much. They they they like IT, right? And and that's just wrong that based off like fifty year old neusatz.

i'm going to push back on this lightly because when when I initially ly hear that, I think in a different way, which is probably completely wrong. But I think, uh, something they care about, a currency that I can use to manipulate at worse behavior, yes, yes.

And a lot of appearance for .

that positively reward behavior at best, maybe right? And so it's like the one thing in their lives OK. I something that I yes.

I think that's a that's very and I think I felt that two about IT at first but then I was like, is a worth .

IT go deeper on like.

okay, so we had like rosy, maybe like when SHE was six, he was like starting like with, you know, netty x right, which is insane, right? You you watch IT like IT IT makes me feel insane to watch some some of IT like so fast and it's so like a delic IT is just like, and we would every night you would get some time. And I like you think was like this currency, right? This like, oh, reward this like manipulative base.

But then at the invite you would be so crazy and every night would be like a struggle and a fight in lake SHE would like a different child. And I was just like, I don't think this worth IT. I don't need this.

I can, I don't think I can motivate her other ways, ways that don't make her scream. I mean, ways don't feel like the struggle and don't make hyper and IT just feels like a waste of time. I think I come at IT more from the research of is not hurting her but actually she's gonna .

feel Better .

and yeah and like life long Better you know what you're doing is your building habits.

all right?

Like when I when i'm bored, I when I want to relax and I would even push, whether it's relaxing, kids, social video games, I do this and right. I could build that habit. I build that having rosy like that, but maybe, maybe, maybe Better in her life would be lake, when I bored, I play, I played them a piano. 嗯， 哼， i read a book, and she's never gna pick those things. If he knows the other is available.

I have one kid who probably rules too much. So if that's possible.

I think most kids .

are like that yeah I take away books is like a consequence and he he's like.

you know books like paper books .

and kindle like he's on the kindle all of the time attached to my account. I get these crazy amazon recommendations. It's like, really i'm like, man, you don't know me, i'm not but A I take over at all, right? And I opened the candle and then I go now I know where we're going to from, but like it's it's a currency coming back to technology. It's like I know something that motivate them. I know that hey, i'm going to you know, this is a consequence, a natural consequence to your behavior and then he's like you're the dad that takes away reading .

from this child. But that currency to me is more valuable than like watching netflix.

Doesn't matter if there, if it's sort of like the same thing, if they're reading a book about the same show theyll be watching you think? Or right.

And I think IT just again, that depends on what you value. What do you think for a while he was kind of you do to audio box OK, like hours and hours and hours, like six, seven hours on the weekends, you know, of just listening until some parents that would be like, amazing. And I mean, I I think that's Better than watching cartoons in the sense.

Like SHE learnt narrative structure. SHE learned an incredible vocabulary, right? Like, like, so i'm saying, like, I had to like, figure out. But then I was I could see IT was like, squeeze out other things and I was like creating and conflict, right? Like, I like.

what do I tell you? Takes over. So this value thing is super interesting because it's IT makes me wonder if a lot of our parenting is driven by like we're trying to succeed through our children instead of putting our children in a position I can success. I think that we oh you get in the ye, that's my success as much as your success .

and you're transmit the value of that. Yes, but I don't think we stop and think enough about leg. How are actions and what we say and what we the currency we use with children transmits values. So for instance, like i'm seeing, you're talking to one of my friends about john athan s book and about literally about this topic and they have with with the mom of two children in the thirteen year o comes over and shows us, look, mom, look at this video of this durable look while we're talking about this topic. And what is the mom do?

Stops, looks, the video.

Stops are face to face conversation to look at this like take time video and like, engage with IT. And I just left there and I was like, what is that transmitting to the children in the room?

The there's the the V I P, right? You're the in this .

tiktok video is more important yeah then a face to face conversation on with a .

friend and it's not something you're actively communicating.

but it's something they're receiving through. Oh.

I think gets that is active. I mean, yes.

And oh, the check is more important, but that's not how kids learn. Kids don't learn from what you say is important. Kids learn through practice in modeling. That is how kids learn.

Everything, what would be an alternative way to handle that situation?

I would say i'm i'm talking i'm talking to this is important. I'm having conversation with my cleaning right now. You know, let's discuss this later and then I would tell the child later.

You know number one, that's really rude. You know it's a thirteen year old kid like they should know at that point that's root IT you know interrupt in the middle conversation like I would tell rosie that nicely. Not really mean I just said IT do after, not the moment I wouldn't .

do IT in the .

moment you would embarrass child, you would make a big scene. In the moment, it's more of a performer of parenting device, which is IT. Again, what you value there be looking good as .

a they're learn, but you feel Better.

That's right. You're risk shaming them, right? But I would tell them in the moment, like this conversation is important and there i'm transform the value of, I value a face to face interaction.

When in some jurby video on tiktok, if you look around you, you will see this everywhere. You will see parents actively valuing and modeling the love of technology. The reward system is really a value system.

yeah. The the .

reward system in the brain is made in animals. So too, you know, make sure to get food, sex, water safety, right? But in humans, IT IT can be hooked up to anything that seems valuable. And that's what children are learning. They're are learning that this screen, these videos, this video game, this is what our society, this is what my family value is.

So hard, look, and I leave my phone in a different room when we eat dinner.

Yeah, have one phone and it's in a drawer.

And I feel IT right.

You want to go over there?

I do. I definitely feel a whole time they .

call IT motivation magnet.

It's like, where's t that's your brain.

But it's interesting is.

uh, a couple weeks ago, my Youngest came up to me and is like, I like that you never have your phone, hi dinner.

I love that and I was like, I didn't even think you noticed things like care and like I was just this moment of like I was like I so I was doing IT because I wanted to pay attention to them and my motivation was like less of, you know, it's sort of communicating values, which is we need to chat face, face but I was also about avoiding regret. I didn't want them. I always think about like, what are you going to move out one day?

Yeah, I hope eventually. And when they move, vote, i'm gonna wish I was having dinner. yeah. Was more .

important checking your email for the other .

time or like, and you all and i'm not, uh, I usually am but like i'm not a hundred percent confident that I can just lego leave IT at my pocket. And then the the other thing that I ve started doing recently, I just want them with them. I put on silent by for sure. And the only people that can get through salad mood are them right?

I mean, all these things, if you're doing are transmitting the value of like you care about interacting with them more than the phone yeah I I didn't .

think they pay attention or at least one of them is I think .

it's a fascinating option. I've been i'm ring a chapter now about how actually kids don't like technologies as much as you think they do.

Tell me .

more because I just .

asked him answer I am I mean I am right.

It's not that blame and you can actually find IT in in this um like in conversations are in the books, people will say these people will like say what you just said, like kids will say things like I really like this night because we're not on the screens. You so kid, I doesn't saying like but you can ask, you can say, like, what would you you do on the ipad after school? I do this, I do that and then one little girl said, without even be saying anything, was like, but you know, I would do something more fun and more a Better if my parents let me oh, you don't want to actually be on a bit no, I don't really want to be on that actually and rosy one day said to me, like, not that long ago, he said, I thought you wanted me on the netflix.

So interesting.

And because I kind of did in the sense that like what you're talking about using IT as currency, right? So I was like pushing IT later.

right? You need to find something .

you don't need IT.

IT was really weird.

Again, it's this question of wanting IT, wanting to pick up your phone and actually enjoying IT and actually valuing IT. Actually, like, I think most kids would rather do something else, but they early, especially teenagers, that have been on technology for so long, I mean, their brains are so wired to want IT, they call the motivational magnets.

The q turn into these like magnets that pull you there, not the actual software, the cues yeah, and you actually transfer the value onto the cues. And this is very, very, very strong, poor. To get away from that, you have to protect the child from the cues.

What do you tell your lot to know? Like i'm picking random ages here, but like your your sixteen year old or your twelve year old, but they can't want to show enough flax or or that's not what our family does or values. But then they go to school and everybody is talking you about IT. Now they feel left there. They feel like they are not a part of something.

Right, right. Isn't that interesting how it's all about fear because we think it's about reward, yes, but it's actually about fear and the fear and the rewards of all mesh yeah ah so I think at the teenage years you start you really they they really need to start to understand how this affects their brain and you know and how it's manipulating their brain, kind of why wiring up their reward system to prioritize IT over everything out.

Teenagers don't like to be manipulated. So I think you start there, you start with this conversation of how this actually works. One of the nurse scientists said to me, he is a toy boy to give my phone.

He gave him this like our long powerpoint on what the phone death to his brain and how works and how the think about sign tracking and all the stuff um and then they had, they SAT down. They said, okay, he said, how much of your day do you want the phone to take up? Just write IT down. How much to do you want? And I think the kids is unlike forty five minutes a day, which sounds about what you're doing.

right?

Yeah and he said, okay, they wrote IT out and he said, now it's my job is the parent to hold him to that IT becomes more of this CoOperation, saying we're there like.

well, that's what are you get. You're effectively trying to come up with something with them. But you so the parental authority .

so I think you need is your house to coaching. Yeah, it's a more guidance. But then there I think that there's these rules that makes sense logically. No screens in the bedroom. Yeah I mean, like we got right of right now, we have no screens after seven .

and I tried to hold IT to myself.

I do .

that. Meet you sure on that point.

But try try IT in the sense that like if you can, one of the earth scientists who studies dopamine in the eyes told me three hours before that time yeah and so I started to this crazy right this like seven o clock right yeah um and I started doing IT like maybe november and I change asleep like I never sleep before I am not kidding you I like I mean and I think I think kids will feel the same. I mean, affects you the sly, the doubt .

deserve book. You came across new research that like parents of teens, you are a twp thirteen can be like, hey, before you get a phone, before we talk about technology, I want you to read this, not have a conversation about that.

I would recommend watching social dala. Have you watch? Have you guys watched that? Definitely watched that. I've heard of seventeen years time they've had to watch IT in school like yeah .

it's in the same school, don't ban.

I'm not sure I haven't done the cross correlation day that on that, but I but the problem is that parents don't know these things like parents. It's not like I say like it's not that even playing field right now, the tech industry has all this knowledge in tools and goals about technology and how affects your brain and and affects children's brain more that way because of you know there are not as developed and parents have none of IT right now. It's a really, really uneven playing field, and we're playing with these old rules of two hours of screen time and night.

And I try to be, I mean, persons, I just try IT like the rules are interesting. We're trying to get away from rules tomorrow, like autonomy, if you will, within within certain limits. So how that goes? But I mean, it's just the nonstop struggle.

And I have great kit. So I can imagine if you had more difficult children. I can know like sometimes they go to bed, not like, man, I just won the olympics.

Nobody died today. Everybody ate food. This is a way and .

they're on this thing for an hour.

And you know, like some days, like, just look here. I need to break, right? Like I need A I mean.

I really is about setting up your environment. I mean, like I said that earlier, yes, I said like you set up an environment where the child can be autonation and you it's about doing that with the screens going to be it's going to be harder because they they are magnets.

I want to come back to this just before we end. But like, what have you learned about in not these tribes, but in sort of western culture? What can we do for our environment that sort of at least add friction to things, if not remove them as a possibility?

You need for technology.

Well, for technology or anything, like what can we do to encourage autonomy in our kids through the environment? A big fan of the environment is like the hidden hand. I think, James, here, that the hidden and that shapes, yeah.

I mean, like we said, like a prediction machine. I coming to an environment and like I know, like i'm predicting everything that i've done here in the past, especially with Younger children, I mean, older children too, it's about empowering them so you don't have to say anything to them, right? It's teaching them the skills they need so that they can be autonomists in your environment, so you can either change the environment and get rid of everything, which is what we can attend to do with kids. But then you just leave them an empowered right, or you slowly teach them, you know so does that make sense bit?

Yeah I I think it's. I'm trying to make a practical for right .

give me example of something that you are like .

a house environment, like what are the things so like one thing that you mention that I picked up on which I mean we don't do um other people may or may not. And I really try not to judge the people, everybody y's doing their best.

I really and IT is different.

That's the thing too. So like having A T V, having that environment choice .

where you put the T V.

And so if you put the T, V and sort of the main floor, you end up with one sort of your your example, fine one thing, right? And if you put the basement, you're just like putting a lot of the way on show pees uh and then the kids get more autonomy in a way because I have to go good downs irs, and I figured out themselves and hang ging out with their friends if they want to watch T, V. And so like i'm just thinking out there, any other environmental, I would love to learn some i'm sure everybody else listening.

I think one of the things that maybe we haven't said explicit that should be set is like I don't think children can be autonomists with technology.

some technology.

and that's interesting.

okay? I don't think .

that they're capable of .

t so use the environment to shape the technology, screen time limits or apple .

limits or something. hunting. A lot of one of the the goals in is to teach boys, but now girls too is very mix um to see your hand, okay, they have to do many films have to do IT.

And like you know, this is a skill you have to learn, right? Well, the seal hand is crazy. IT is a crazy skill.

You have to go out on the ice, poke a hole in the milk of nowhere instead. And then they put a little tiny legs feather in the hole. And you sit there, you steer at IT for six hours until the feather moves in, the new step, the ice.

Okay, this is a very difficult yeah task where you can just take a six year old in time to go see hand. Yeah, right. What do they do? The dad explaining to me, he's like, when the cake can stay outside for six hours, then we will taken with us, but we will park them like way out because they are nicer. Ise, you're going to mess IT all up and then the kids still wants to do IT that will bring you slowly bring them closer and it's like, I mean, I think that well.

how we the the technology is a like demonstrate responsibility yeah you .

delay IT until they show a lot of interest wanted and then it's like, okay, where can you go in to see your hand? You're onna be way out there and then you show me you can do that and then to personally.

which is like I will show me you can be responsible for, we start adding.

right? It's exactly what you like and delaying, you know because the the kids not capable standing over the house looks six hours, right, and is like the parents gonna stick in that situation and haven't fail.

But I think if you put a phone, give a out of phone to their bedroom room video again, because you're putting them at the see a hole to fail, right? And so it's it's not new that this idea I just think that we have to treat this thing as this tool. It's like kids can learn you. They don't have the mental capacity to sit over the whole for six hours. They don't have mental capacity to Carry your phone into the room and not go to bed is a small process.

Oh yeah, like everybody's doing the best they can. Every child is different. Every sort of like environments .

different. But then .

like every broader environmental ipad and computers and laptops .

in the school is crazy, which I think actually means at home it's more important to.

yes.

they need to build these other skills. Yeah I mean, like i'm a big fan of carnet and he talks a lot about how like concentrating and you know doing this kind of deep and stuff is he takes practice.

We always end with the same question, but I can use a slightly different version of IT for you, which is what is success as a parent .

for you so first, before ward, the bucket was like you're tired about like ye, you know it's like gery speaking, managing and going to yale was was what you know like that I don't I don't even um but then when I read the work I was like success for me is rosy feeling the growing up mentally and healthy.

What does that mean? Mentally healthy.

not having tons anxiety and depression, and and like feeling societal and like, you know like like enjoying life. You like really enjoying life and enjoying our relationship, enjoying being part of the family, which I think is important for elementally healthy kids. You know, that means working, having a job, that means having a family, that means whatever that means for her. But like, you know, waking up and being excited about the things she's doing in that day.

It's a beautiful way to end this conversation. Thank you so much. Taking the time.

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