#45 Dan Kluger: Taking Time to Get It Right
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But I think there is something really important about in any field, not getting to the top too quickly. I'm Shane Parrish, and this is another episode of The Knowledge Project, a podcast exploring the ideas, methods, and mental models that help you learn from the best of what other people have already figured out. To learn more about the show and past guests, go to fs.blog.com.

My guest today is chef Dan Kluger. I first met Dan when a friend took me to his restaurant, Loring Place, in New York for a late dinner one night. And like he does most nights, Dan left the kitchen to come out and talk to all the people in the dining room. That prompted me to get more interested in the food and the business of running a restaurant. We started an email conversation shortly after.

Dan worked in Danny Meyer's Union Square Cafe, starting in the front of the house and working his way back to prep cook and then every station in the kitchen. In 1999, he helped open Tabla, a restaurant, and worked his way up to chef de cuisine. As you'll hear, working his way up and earning his stripes, so to speak, was important to Dan and something that's lost on a lot of chefs today.

In 2010, Dan opened ABC Kitchen as the executive chef and won a whole bunch of awards, like the 2011 Best New Restaurant, the 2010 Food & Wine Best New Chef. And in the fall of 2016, he opened Loring Place in New York, which is exceptional. And that's where this conversation takes place. I highly recommend the Sundays. Enjoy. Enjoy.

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At what point did you realize you wanted to be a chef? I don't really know. I guess it's better to give a little quick history. I went to Syracuse University not expecting to have anything to do with food and thought I was going to do physical therapy and ended up taking a bunch of nutrition, food science classes as a prerequisite for it. And then I kind of started to catch this little bug. And through that, I was open to this

Lecture series that we put on and I met a number of amazing entrepreneurs and restauranteurs, and one of which was Danny Meyer. And so I went to work for him as an intern, college internship, came back for my, I guess, my senior year and really started to get this excitement over it.

and realized that this is something that I could see myself doing, being involved in a restaurant. I didn't really know in what capacity. So I graduated college.

And it was not a culinary program by any means, but we did some cooking. And it was right at another, I think, stock market crash, downturns of the economy. And they made some cutbacks. And the teacher, the professor that did all the cooking classes and all the extracurricular activities with cooking, he got laid off.

And so I became sort of a TA. And I ended up taking over some of those classes and getting really involved with cooking and just taught myself how to get through it and was working with other cooks on how to do these projects we did. But again, never thought it would be the path I would choose. Went back to Union Square Cafe after I graduated college.

To do some work in the front of the house, host, maitre d', that kind of thing, and thought maybe there'd be something else for me to work on. Using my degree, really was excited about the idea of doing some packaging products, things like that. So just kind of biding my time, trying to figure out what was going to be the next path. And I decided on my days off to hang out in the kitchen to learn a little about what that was like. At Union Square. At Union Square Cafe. You know, huge kitchen, or not huge kitchen, but very busy kitchen. Yeah.

You know, at that point in time, it was it was Sagat's number one restaurant in the country or city, whatever it was at that point, you know, year after year. So it certainly was not I wasn't walking in some small little restaurant. I mean, this was eye opening.

And I enjoyed the front of the house experience a lot, but the idea of being in the kitchen was intriguing. So I spent a little time in my days off just to kind of understand what was going on. And at some point they offered me a job as a prep cook. So I was making, I think, $8.50 an hour, peeling potatoes, cleaning calamari I worked with. The prep crew was strictly Spanish speaking. I didn't speak one word of Spanish. So it was really like, again, very kind of cultural shock for me.

And I did that for about three months, four months, and started to really get into the idea of it, but still was just a prep cook. I mean, I didn't know where it would go to.

and then was promoted to, I think, oysters and sandwiches, and then I was making all the fresh pastas, and I kept working my way up, and I spent just under three years there as a line cook, and then moved on to open Tabla as a line cook with Floyd Cordova. And so really it was just somewhere around that point that I took this from, it's interesting and I'm enjoying doing it, to,

I think I'm actually good at this and I should pursue this as a career. I mean, it was really right around that time of finishing at Union Square and opening Tabla somewhere in there that I started to look at other opportunities. Did I want to cook at a small restaurant? Did I want to do purchasing and do more of a corporate thing? Did I want to get involved with other aspects of corporate?

kitchen and restaurant business, but not be cooking. Cause I just wasn't sure. Um, and Tablo was an amazing, amazing experience really, again, opened my eyes to food and to cooking. It was very different than Union Square. How did that experience in the front of the house at Union Square shape how you acted or behaved or what you created in the back in the kitchen? Um, well, I think it certainly helped with, um,

what we do in the kitchen, but I think it helped more with, um, where I am today and the path that I've taken, um, in terms of really wanting to be a chef owner and create my own thing from start to finish. And today we're sitting in Lauren place having this interview and this is your, your creation. This is, this is my creation, my baby. Um, all the blood, literally blood, sweat and tears. Um, I've gone into it. Um, so I, I think, um,

For one, if I'd worked probably any decent restaurant front of the house, I think that experience of being customer-facing and enjoying customer interactions would help shape where I am today. But I think working for Danny Meyer and really being a believer in this hospitality. What was that like? I mean, there's such a persona for Danny Meyer that...

I mean, he's an amazing person, truly amazing. And I was very fortunate that when I started at Union Square Cafe, I think Gramercy Tavern had opened two years prior, maybe somewhere around there, not even. So he was still very much involved in Union Square Cafe. Paul Bowles-Bevin, who was his managing partner, was...

I mean, really one of the best people I've ever met in my life and really grasped hospitality from the customer side to the employee side. Really was just a wonderful person to work with. And so I was at this forefront of Danny and Paul and even Mike Romano and all these people that really...

believed it, practiced it and, and helped me experience it. Um, so that's the service-based culture that you're the service-based culture, but really the, the taking care of people, um, both as your employee and as guests. And I think, um,

You know, the taking care of employees, ultimately it's a job and ultimately we have to make money. I think they did a lot to try and make us feel good, whether it was doing family meal, doing what we kind of refer to now as lineup, which is, you know, where the whole team

front of the house staff and we also do in the kitchen, they line up and we talk about what's going to happen for the day. And really, you know, just like a big organization probably has small team meetings. Um, it's really no different, but in the restaurants, it's not always that common. Uh, now I think it is. And I think, you know, he certainly was probably didn't create that, but at the forefront of it, um, and, you know, looking at things like the tip pools and all these different things that, that I think, um,

I imagine, again, he didn't start, but he was sort of pioneer, so to speak, in terms of taking big restaurants and making them work this way. But I think the biggest thing that he's known for, or at least that we got from it, we being people that work there, even today, but certainly at that time, is this hospitality, this feeling of really trying to blow a guest away. What does that mean? I think it's all about how do you take...

A very average experience. Most of us go out to eat. It's a means to an end. You know, your boys are sitting at the bar now. They're going to have something later. It's literally a means to an end. It is, they're here with you. We're doing this. They're going to get something to eat. They don't really care what, when, where, and how. They just want something. And sometimes we go out because we want to experience something. It's an anniversary. It's a celebration. Sometimes it is...

an opportunity to see people you haven't seen in a long time. Sometimes it's a business meeting, whatever it is. Ultimately, the dining is a means to an end. And they were really at the forefront of how do we make this special? And it was always just little things. And I think that's always been something that I've taken away. And I mean, again, I remember how little things that had nothing to do with the actual food, but were the experience. Yeah.

Could change experience for somebody drastically. Can you give me some examples? Things like, and again, I saw this a lot at Union Square, but took a lot of it to Tabla and have taken it on since then. You know, back in 1998, if you parked on the street, you had to put coins in the meters.

And I remember a guest at Union Square, and this was when I was working in front of the house, saying, I need some change to go put money in the meter. And I said, here, I'll get it for you from the bartender. He said, why don't you just tell me where your car is? And they didn't have to give me a key at that point in time. I'll do it for you. And I'm like, well, no, no, no, you don't need to do that. I don't want to interrupt your meal. Why don't you sit down, enjoy your meal, just tell me where your car is, and we'll take care of it for you.

And I think those little things were things that people didn't really do. It seems so much today that everything runs around the business. And by the business, I mean it's like the process for the business instead of what is in the best interest of the customer. Because being in the best interest of the customer means a lot of variation, right?

And you have to be able to accommodate different things. You have to hire probably differently. Yeah. I mean, I think in general today, we probably accommodate a lot more than restaurants would have expected.

15 years ago again taking taking in a relationship or a restaurant similar to any union square hospitality restaurant but an average restaurant you know they wouldn't have done something like that they wouldn't go out and get a newspaper for a regular sitting at the bar that has you know nothing to read um you know they they wouldn't do those little things but you know now i think we do so much to try and accommodate and it's it's not to like win this war it's it's just you're

You're here and I'm happy you're here. It is a little bit of a transaction. But I also think, you know, we're at a point where the industry is in a position of raising costs and all these different things that are affecting us that the accommodations still need to happen, but they need to happen on a sort of non-financial side, you know? Right. Yeah.

Talk to me about, there seems to be almost a rite of passage to become a chef, right? Like you start, or maybe I misunderstand this. I don't know anything about how you become a chef, but it sounds from a lot of stories that I've heard, like you start out as, you know, the lowest of the low in the kitchen sort of, and then you work your way up and it's almost this war of attrition. Yeah, I'm all very valid. And I think that the war of attrition is certainly a very valid point. It's a reason why,

I don't know. I think I grew up in the industry with a lot of very talented people and many of which have gone on to become chefs, but I also can look around and see so many people that I would have thought would be a chef and they're not today. They went to do something different because it is a tough industry. I do think there's something to be said for working your way up and it's not necessarily lowest to the low, but, you know, because that almost sounds derogatory, but

There's something missing today about a cook that doesn't know how to peel a potato properly. They don't know how to run a dishwasher. Right. Um,

Is that common? I think so. Yeah. I mean, I could find four different examples, whether it's filleting a fish or butchering a chicken or turning an artichoke or something like that, that solid cooks have not been experienced to do this yet. They went to school and they butchered one chicken.

Or they butchered six chickens. But they haven't done 100. They haven't done 10 cases. They haven't done it, you know, 20 pieces every day for six months to the point where they have now pushed themselves to get so much better. And it goes back to the whole apprenticeship thing, right? I mean, if you think back, old world, somebody...

any kind of craftsman any kind of um job where you had to learn a skill you sort of started from the bottom and you worked your way up if you were a shoemaker you know you didn't just start making shoes on day one you had to work your way up if you were uh you know somebody working with steel again you had to you had to work your way up thinking about construction i mean anything so

Now we think you can just watch a YouTube video and you're an expert. There is so much of that. And I don't think that anybody necessarily thinks they're experts. But for better or for worse, there's so many opportunities now to learn right away. You know, I read book upon book upon book. And I get caught up today in...

YouTube videos and these amazing food websites that, you know, it's like just like that black hole of the internet. You just keep going and going and going and it's exciting to learn. And I think back if I had had that

When I was starting out, I probably wouldn't have read any of these books, which would have been detrimental on another part of my career. I'd learned so much from reading these books and from experiencing food and food that was being done all over the country, anywhere from that point in time, early 90s to 20, 30 years before that.

But I think there is something really important about in any field, not getting to the top too quickly and really paying your dues somewhere. And I, you know, I maybe I'm not...

I maybe didn't do it the best way in the sense that I spent a lot of time in a very few number of places. I spent three plus years at Uniscrack Cafe. I spent seven years at Tabla. I spent, I think, four and a half years at the Court Club. I spent five years with with Jean-Georges and ABC. And now I'm doing my own thing. And

You know, I know a lot of other people who did a lot less and saw a lot more places and were probably exposed to many more things than I ever will be. So in some respects, I'm sorry I didn't get that experience. But there's also something really sad about honing your skill in one place. And, you know, it gave me the opportunity to sort of like take ownership over every place I was at. I spent so long there that it was hard not to feel like an owner.

Talk to me about how the idea for Luring Place started as a seed and germinated and became reality. Okay. Ultimately, I think from as early on as the end of my time at Tabla, I started thinking about I'd like to own something. I'm committed 100%. That's what I want to do. But I really want to not only call the shots, but I want to

build something from scratch. I've always enjoyed that idea, whether it's the physical building or just the philosophical build something from scratch. And so I was working at this private membership club called the Core Club.

It was an amazing experience where I was the chef. And again, while I was an owner, I was there long enough and in a position high enough that I couldn't help but feel ownership over it. Right. I mean, you're in there every day. You're in there every day. Blood, sweat, and tears. And, you know, you're responsible for numbers and you're...

I think this was a really amazing experience because it was a private membership club that, you know, it was hard. I couldn't invite friends to eat. I think my family came once in the four plus years I was there. It was private for a reason. And I think in some respects that was beneficial because it made me have to work that much harder getting staff.

because nobody really knew anything about it. There was no New York Times review. There was no blog posts about it. So it made me really kind of, I think, work on this philosophy of creating a tight-knit group of people, the employees. And, I mean, some of them are still here with me today, and that was 2005. Yeah.

So I think while I was there, I was around some of the best CEOs, entrepreneurs in the world. And I just really kind of spent more and more time thinking about, I want to do this, I want to do this. And I worked on a business plan back in, I think, 2006, 2007. And it was right when the stock market crashed and I knew I wasn't going to raise any money. And I also felt like, you know,

I'm still young, and as much as I want to do something, maybe it's not the right time. I was very fortunate enough to meet Jean-Georges at the farmer's market and went to go work for him and was incredibly happy with what I was doing. But again, there was always this kind of burning need to do my own thing. It strikes me as like they're completely almost...

uh, creative strengths, but they're not commonly found together. I mean, to be a great chef and to be a great entrepreneur at the same time. Talk to me a bit. Yeah. I mean, I think obviously there's, there's a number of amazing ones. John George being one of them, Danielle Balloud being another Wolfgang Puck. I mean, there's plenty, some of which have done big empires and some have done small. Um, but I think a lot of us have that creative bug, um,

That doesn't just end with the food. It goes into the dining experience in some form or another. Again, for me, what were the glasses? What were the plates? I had a vision very early on of what I wanted the plates to be based on a

a bowl that my parents set of bowls. My parents gave me when I went off to college and said, you know, here, we got these in Vermont, really nice little bowls and you can use them for cereal or whatever in your dorm room. And I still have them today. Um, and they were just as cool shape that I, I went to the guy that, um, I was friends with that I knew would do the plates. I said, I want to base it off of this. So the, the creativity, you know, obviously we need to always be creating food, but, um,

I don't think that necessarily gets older or we burn out on it, but I'm always wanting something new. And so the idea of now starting to create a restaurant and create plates and create the, the atmosphere and the playlists and all these different things, it was just one more thing to do. Control the environment and to some extent. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, again, that leads to finding other people that want to be part of that as well. Um, so I don't know if it's necessarily uncommon, um,

to have those things go together, but it is definitely less common. Um, and I think, you know, there's, there's plenty of incredible chefs that I know, um, that really, you know, they want the front of house experience to be great, but they're not really that concerned about, uh,

what's the overall package and I think as you you know when you go back to attrition I think as you watch there's less and less of those around I think more and more people are saying I do want to be part of the whole package and I want to find up a partner front of the house or from the house guy finding a partner in a chef that again has those same sort of wants and needs of

full creation and being involved and and you know full creation doesn't mean it's it's narrow-minded it can still be a team um but being able to say like really want to do all this stuff i don't want to just work for somebody else i want to do all this what goes into when when i come into a restaurant i sit down i start reading a menu and you know these dishes look amazing but what goes into the creation of a dish that i see on a menu i think it's i think it's different for

Everybody. What's your creative process? For me, there's a few different ways, a few different things that kind of come together. And sometimes we're very seasonally driven and we use a lot of local farmers, Unisquare Farmers Market and all sorts of other farmers that deliver to us. But

As things are coming in season, walking through the farmer's market and, you know, having this tactile experience of picking up something and then picking up something else and smelling aromas in the air and kind of like, I mean, literally it could be, you could pick something up and you could have a flashback of something you ate 10 years ago. So that can start the process. That's one portion of it. And again, I mean, I can think of examples of walking through the farmer's market and picking up some tomatoes,

and then picking up some peaches. And I, I love the combination of peach tomato and then picking up, um, some fennel and some onions and thinking about like doing some with all those things together and coming back and working on something and making it a dish. So that's obviously, you know, one way. And it's again, very tactile. It's very much, um, in the moment of, of the inspiration. Um, as I think sometimes it's, it's driven by a need. Um, you know, we, we know that, uh,

We know that English peas are coming to an end and that tomatoes are about to happen. Strawberries are at the market. And

have to work on something and so then it's kind of like either going to the market or going downstairs and and sort of like just forcing yourself to again have this tactile experience of touching and looking and thinking about things and sometimes it's literally like walking down the state somebody's station and picking up a tomato and then going to the next station eating a piece of cheese and then going to the next station like taking a little piece of ginger and thinking oh wait all those have kind of like created something interesting in my mouth right now and i wasn't planning on

a dish, but it became something. And then I think the other one that sometimes happens, and again, it really spawns off of there's a need to change something. But I could literally be looking at a magazine and see a picture of something, not even read the caption, no idea what I'm looking at, but

For whatever reason, something sparks. And close the magazine, kind of like never think about that again. But that made me think, I really want to do something with lamb. I haven't done anything with lamb in a while. And then pull from either childhood memories or pull from a dish that, you know, I've done years before. And that becomes something. And for this restaurant, there was a lot of all of those things coming together. I wanted this restaurant to sort of be...

a little bit of a exploration, a little bit of a celebration, so to speak of restaurants I worked at in the city. You know, I've only worked in the city. Um, I don't have a cultural background, um, like, like, um, Danielle, Jean George, um, Marcus Samuelson, uh,

et cetera. Like I didn't have, uh, this, uh, this cultural background that I saw, you know, Floyd Cardozo was a mentor of mine. I saw him pull from this every day, every day we cooked, he pulled from his Indian background and, and was able to talk about something that he had as a child growing up. Um,

And so I said, okay, I am not going to rip off dishes from the past, but I need to borrow from them. I need to be inspired by them. And I think a great example of that is we have a crispy cauliflower dish on the menu, which was really inspired by something we did at Tabla and something I did later on somewhere else. And it's coated in Indian spices that we used to make this dish.

dish i think it was scallops with like this cauliflower puree with tomatoes and i mean nothing to do with what we're doing but just that again thinking about some of these combinations made me say all right well i don't want to use x y and z but the cumin was amazing with that cauliflower and and the turmeric was great so what if you make a spice paste of that now we add some chilies in and now we're going to batter it and fry it now is something that's amazing it tastes great

but need something else. And then thinking about, okay, what are some, what are some like more American things? How do I get away from the spice now and pull back? And we liked a lot, we like to use a lot of sweet, sour, spicy, salty, crunchy, like all these things that create these peaks and valleys as you eat, you know, one bite is one thing, one bites another. So in that one specific dish, it was like, okay, well now what, what are the other components? How do we make

something sweet and sour. And so we made a lemon jam, uh, and then we added some pickled chilies and then we had some cilantro for this strong herb flavor. And so all these things kind of became a dish, but they're all inspired by something else. And I mean, that's kind of happened throughout the menu. And then, um, a lot of the desserts have taken shape, um, from, from childhood favorite things of mine, hostess cupcake, the blizzard, um,

um and cookies and some other things like that and then um i think same for for our pastry chef diana it's sort of things that that she's excited about that she remembers eating or something that seems kind of mundane like a bread pudding how do we make it really exciting and so again these little twists that make it really exciting is every day different every day is different um but mainly because of who's coming in um we don't change what we're doing we're not a restaurant that um

As much as we do change the menu, we don't change the menu daily and especially create menus just because of who's coming in. But for me, I think for the majority of the staff, every day is fairly similar. There's definitely ups and downs. Who called out sick? What did we not get today? Did we sell a ton of ducks yesterday? And so now we're really behind today and that's a big project. But for me, every day is very different because A, my task list can be

because I enjoy the customer interaction, I find that, you know, I can have a night where I know half the dining room and it just, the night just flies by, you know, between spending time with people and then just making sure that those experiences are amazing. And then I'll have another night where I don't know anybody. And so now I'm challenged to really push. I don't have anybody to really connect with. So how do I go out and connect with them? And how do we, how do we make that experience? How do I put

in the meter for somebody. You know, I can't do that, so what do I do? And a lot of that is finding a way to connect through food and see that, you know, again, two boys are sitting at a table. I have a feeling they probably wouldn't mind some ice cream. So, you know, how do we get ahead and do something kind of special for them? Or overhearing somebody talking about, you know,

bacon and thinking about, okay, they didn't order bacon, but we make an incredible bacon in-house. How about we send them a little bacon? So all those things kind of make my day more exciting. One of the things that stuck out for me, I think it was a month ago that I ate here for the first time we were kind of introduced, was how visible you were in the dining room. And that was an experience that I'm not used to as a customer. Yeah, I think again that goes back to A, my love for

the interactions, my love for essentially the instant gratification of talking to someone about the food, but certainly my experience of spending time in the front of the house and experiencing that first impression of somebody walking in the door and how that greeting at the host stand to getting them to a table, many factors there are in that and how easy it is to really screw that up

or blow somebody's mind. And again, I can think about times at Union Square Cafe, I remember walking people to a table and creating a very quick relationship. I mean, one time I remember walking

quickly like literally i mean in 30 steps having a discussion and realizing that they were from london and i was going to london the next month and we connected quickly and i ended up going and spending a night with them and cooking with them that's awesome at their house you know so that that all those little things have always made it very exciting for me to be part of the front of the house and be part of that experience

Take me behind the scenes in the kitchen. What does it look like when the kitchen's working exceptional? And what does it look like when it's a struggle? And what are those differences? A lot of it comes down to being prepared and then communication. Ultimately, if we are prepared, it's kind of use the analogy of going into battle. We're prepared for battle, but

Right there, what's the saying? It's like half the battle, right? I mean, being prepared sets us up for success. And from there, the next part of the struggle is the communication. And it's literally like...

somebody's having a bad day they they have a cold they can't hear you properly the dining room is just really boisterous and loud tonight and it's seeping into the kitchen and it's interfering all those little things can play a factor in how we're communicating with each other but um you know assuming everybody's prepared which is as simple as having all the herbs you need and and having all the lettuce you need and having the ducks ready and all those things or not um

And then basically just having constant communication. It's a rhythm. I mean, you talk about the peaks and valleys of the food, the...

the rhythm of the kitchen is very much the same thing. It's up and down, it's up and down. And so again, there's so many factors. It's how, how's it going in the front of the house? Did you show up on time for your reservation? Were you late for your reservation? Were you supposed to be four people and you're six people? Were you supposed to be six people and you're four people? You know, you'd think that those things don't really matter, but they actually have a huge impact on what we're doing. And so, you know, again, there's

there's so many factors, but assuming that things are falling into place, we really just kind of going up and down and up and down and, you know, call out a ticket. Then you, you fire, you know, four things and everybody says, great, eight minutes will be in the window. And now assuming that they're communicating, communicating properly, eight minutes later, everything goes in the window. And somewhere in between that eight minutes, you're firing the next group. And literally it's just up and down, up and down, up and down.

But it doesn't take much to throw a wrench in things. You burn something, you run out of something. Again, something happens to the table. I think the industry is in an interesting space right now in terms of that sort of thing. Just people kind of losing sight of, as we talked about earlier, it's a transaction. If you have tickets to Hamilton...

you're going to go. And if you have strep throat and you don't feel well, you're going to find a way to either go or sell the tickets off. Yeah. And I certainly don't advocate, you know, selling a reservation and I don't advocate coming in sick, but. No, but it is hard to get a reservation here, right? It's hard to get a reservation. And it really is. I mean, we're seeing more than ever, I think, a huge shift in, you know,

tables just not showing up canceling five minutes before people showing up late and then wondering why they can't be sat what happened last night and i'm so tempted to say when's the last time you were late for a flight never i mean you didn't get on that flight if you were but yet i'm gonna hold the seat for you i'm gonna i'm gonna lose a transaction to somebody who's actually waiting in the hopes that you're gonna show up so again all those things are to say that um

We've had nights where it's slow and it is just, it is a haul all night long. You know, you can never get out from underneath it. And then we've had nights where it seems incredibly busy and you look at the number at the end and you turn around and say, I would have thought this was like a hundred less covers. It was so easy.

And a lot of that is just if the rhythm just keeps working and working and working. And the prep is there beforehand to make the night. So some nights you actually know you're probably going to have a slog right before dinner service because you're not in the place that you want to be. Yeah. Which, you know, again, going back to that, no day is ever the same. We, we have a lot of systems in place and we have an amazing team that then looks and says, okay, it's,

5.30 and we still need X, Y, and Z. Okay, I'm going to keep this person to do this. I'm going to do this myself. And I'm going to give these three things up to these other people because we know that, you know, especially on a Friday or Saturday, whatever night of the week, really, if at 5.30 you're not ready, it's going to be downhill for not just that one person, but for everybody around them.

Talk to me about Dan the boss in terms of like how you, the end of the night, something didn't go well, you got a debrief, you got to fix it because you don't want it to be a repetitive problem. How do you handle that? Um, we do a couple of different things. I mean, for, for one, um, for, for one, we try and, uh, communicate, um, through a lineup at the end of the night, you know, Hey, these things didn't go right. Uh, whether it becomes one-on-one with one specific person, but most of the time it's a team thing. Uh,

And then we do a lot sort of on the back end with all the managers with recaps so that the next morning, whoever's opening that wasn't here knows that the three things that were significant problems are all picked up first thing in the morning. So 7.30, 8 o'clock in the morning, those things are going to be addressed. So hopefully come 5 o'clock the next day, whatever that issue was is not an issue again today. We really are trying to do a lot of that. Okay.

ultimately you know we want to get better we want to smooth things out but i can tell you that there there is a lot less today of the you know kicking and screaming and and throwing things because something didn't go right like nothing's really worth it is that because the team's stable across years or i i think i think certainly i've matured i think the people around me have matured i think um

I have more on the line today than I ever have. But so you'd think that it would be the opposite. I'd be even more high strung about it. I think ultimately, you know, we've all started to realize that it's just not the way to go.

Uh, and you know, that, that adage of you get more bees with honey than vinegar. It's really the same sort of thing. I mean, um, being, being in a pissy mood is not going to say get anybody anywhere. Do a lot of coaching. We spend a lot of time coaching people and sitting people down and, and talking about performance. And I think that sends a serious message that, uh, you know, this isn't just a

We're not just going to yell at you and throw something at you. We're going to take the time. We're going to sit down. We're going to tell you what's going on. Here are things you need to improve on. Here are things that I'm sorry, like I'm not even going to mention again. You just need to figure this out yourself. It seems like some cases the performance would be black and white. Like you burned this, you didn't cook it properly, and in some cases it would be totally subjective. Yeah. How do you handle that? I mean, I think it's the same thing with, you know,

everything else in life, right? I mean, think about your kids. Certain things that your expectations are very black and white. You brush your teeth in the morning, you get dressed in the morning, you clean up your room in the morning, you eat dinner at night, you go to bed at night. I mean, that's black and white, but there's always things in between that make it a little bit gray. So I think we kind of look at it the same way, you know, that if you burn something, that's pretty black and white. Again, we have to look at why it's

is there any reason behind it before we react? You're brand new on the station. I have to expect that you're going to burn some things. And so then that means that we got to do a better job training you. A lot of it comes down to training as well. You know, trying to take a step back. We were just talking about this five minutes ago that, you know, somebody that we're looking to hire and where do we put them? What do we do with them? And

My whole thing now is being really cautious about not setting somebody up for failure. And I mean, obviously that that should be plain and simple. Nobody wants to do that, but it's harder and harder to find really great staff. So I'd rather struggle a little bit taking a step back than to just think that we have this amazing new bandaid. And the reality is it's going to bite us in the ass later on.

What would you say is the biggest misconception people have about chefs? I don't know. I think there's probably a bunch out there today. Obviously, one is that we all eat very well. I think most of us on our days off don't really want to do too much cooking. I think because of the top chef, Gordon Ramsay, all those kind of things, I think the perceptions that we all have

scream and curse and throw things. I mean, do I curse? Yes. I try not to curse in general. I try not to curse around my kids, but once in a while I call them a smart ass and, and you know, that sends a message to them. It's sort of the same thing here. Yeah. Again, it's fairly black and white in terms of the expectation. And so when we have to look in between the lines, it's, it's somewhat acceptable in my book to, to act a little differently, if that makes sense.

I think the other, I don't know if it's a misperception, but again, I think those books and that sort of like mentality is that, you know, we're all partying rock stars. And again, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think there's plenty of people that are doing that, but I think there's plenty of us that, you know, after work, we're not going out and drinking until four o'clock in the morning and we're just going home and going to bed and waking up and doing it all again the next day.

But what is your typical day? Like, like what time does it start here? And then what time do you kind of get out of here and then just to wind down when you get home or is it? Yeah. I mean, my, my days have changed a little bit. I now live in the suburbs. So the commute has kind of helped with the winding down. I'm a lot better today at kind of turning off and,

Um, I start somewhere between 11 and 12, depending on what's going on. Um, work all day. And then again, depending on how crazy it is, I'll be here typically to about 11, sometimes on the weekends, a little bit later. Um, I try and take two days off and typically I try and take Saturday, Sunday off, but, um, sort of find myself, uh, in between, uh, a five day and a six day and, and, you know, working Saturdays and then, uh, the next week taking the two days off. Um,

So I finish here typically around 11, 12, and then it's about 45 minutes, hour commute home. So I wind down, um, and then get home, do some emails, kind of review things from the day, uh, go to bed, wake up around six 30 and do some more emails, go to the gym and come here. What's your favorite thing on the menu? I don't have any, I love all of them equally, just like my children. Um,

I don't know. I, I, it really depends on what mood I'm in. I certainly can never pass on a piece of pizza. Um, I can almost never pass on a French fry. Is that your go-to when you're at home? No, not at all. It's just, I mean, I guess tooting my own horn, the pizzas are pretty damn good. It is. It's amazing. And the French fries are pretty damn good. But, um, I mean, pretty much every day I do like a piece of fish and some vegetables. Um,

Is that part of the family meal beforehand? Yeah. And, you know, again, I pack my day kind of snacking and nonstop. So I try and take about 10 minutes at some point just to do one thing for myself that's healthy and smart in that respect. What are some of the strange requests that customers have? I don't know. I don't feel like we get that many requests.

And I think in part because the menu is so vast and so easily flexible. I mean, you know, gluten-free, dairy-free, so many things on the menu that you can choose from. So a little variation is no big deal, which I think is the weirdest thing I've been asked.

Is the gluten-free, dairy-free thing a steady, or is it... Yeah, I mean, there's a few every night. And it's a challenge, but it's actually...

I don't mind it by any means. I mean, we do a veggie burger at lunch that over the year, I've kind of done a veggie burger for years and years now. And every restaurant's obviously a little bit different in this last version. We've made it gluten-free and now we've done a dairy-free bun and a vegan mayo. So, you know, thinking about how do you cater to those needs and how do we make it

even better than it was before. You know, my whole thing is I don't have a problem sort of catering to the needs, but if I'm going to do it, then I got to do it my way and just make it better than what the perception would have been. And this goes back from even, I guess, as far back as the court club when

We kind of were adamant that this wasn't going to be country club food. And Tom Clikio was the consulting chef. He hired me for it. And so we said, it's not going to be country club food. We're going to do a real restaurant. And we did. And then because of demand, we started to see the need for the entree salads and turkey club and all those kind of things. I said, fine, I have no problem doing it, but...

The chickens for the salad are going to be organic chickens from a small farmer that we roast, and we pick it, and we marinate it, and it's going to be amazing greens and all these different things. And the turkey club is going to be the best turkey club using turkey that we roast every day. I think it pays off in the long run. Again, that's not groundbreaking. People are doing that everywhere now. But I think at that point in time, it was a little bit of a challenge. People kind of wanted their...

They're more, you know, deli meat version of the turkey club. And they didn't really care about freshly roasted organic chickens. They just wanted a chopped salad that was chopped really small. It seems like different cultures have different relationships with food.

New York is super busy and you have almost two extremes, right? There's this sit down social, let's celebrate and connect, or let's grab this fast food and take out and walk and eat as we go. Whereas French culture seems way more, it's only on one end of that, which is sit down and let's have this food together and let's bond over the food. Talk to me about what you want people to experience. I think, yeah,

I want them to experience essentially whatever they want. Because it's like what I said to you, it's a means to an end. I mean, if I go out with my kids, for the most part, I just want to eat and get out. I want to feed us all. I want to have something that...

I am excited that I spent the money on. I had a great bottle of wine. I had wonderful service. They understood that I was with two kids that were not going to have a long attention span. Uh, they helped me make something special for them, but I got great food, real restaurant food, um, in, in the setting that I wanted. So I see the need for that. Uh,

Uh, I also, you know, the, the odd occasion that I do date nights, I don't want to screw with that. I want to be able to take my time and relax. And so we try and read that as well and understand, you know, is this a business meeting? Is it, is it an occasion? And how do we alter the experience for that? Do we go fast? Do we go slow? Um, so ultimately I think, especially in New York, you know, you, you have to be flexible with that. And

You have to understand that people are going to want different things out of that experience. And essentially, I have no problem giving that to them.

One of the things I noticed that you guys do differently that I've never seen done anywhere else before, but it's probably more common than this, but talk to me about what goes into... I noticed when somebody orders a bottle of wine, you actually open it and taste it before it goes to the table. Yeah. How did that come about? I mean, I think that is common, but...

Maybe because the wine station is sort of front and center, you see it. I think it's important. I mean, you know, with the kitchens, it's sort of the same thing. We have...

or what we would call lines of defense. You know, when it's made, it's, it's tasted, it's checked, it's signed off on, uh, when it comes up to the station, it's tasted, it's checked, it's signed off on when it's in the window, it's checked and signed off on. And so you kind of do the same thing with, with the beverages, the wine, uh, you know, you'll, you'll see the bartenders mix up a cocktail and then put a straw in and take the straw, obviously not sipping off the cocktail, but sipping it from, from the side. Uh,

to see that it's made right because you know, if there's nothing worse than if you are excited about this bottle of wine and it comes to your table and it's corked, that transaction now of saying, I don't like it makes an uncomfortable experience for the guest.

So we should try and catch that beforehand. And sometimes maybe we don't, or sometimes we might not agree with your perception, but ultimately, if you're not happy, then we want you to be happy and we take it away. But I do think it's really important to try and capture that ahead of time because sometimes

Again, these are all parts of the transaction and just like the first impression of when you walk in the door, how you're greeted, all those things, then how do you get to the bar, then how do you get to your table, all those parts of the experience are part of the transaction.

So, I mean, it's certainly not beneficial if the steak comes out or the burger comes out improperly cooked or the pizza doesn't have on it what it's supposed to have on it or the salad doesn't have what it's supposed to have. All those things would be detrimental to the experience. Same thing with the wine.

I was talking to somebody about it and they were blown away. They were like, I don't know why every restaurant doesn't do this, but it's because I hate it when they open a bottle of wine and they pour it in my glass. And then I have to be the one that decides for the table. That's good to know. I will certainly start paying more attention when I go out to eat. That's for sure. What are the things that you wish customers knew more of?

Obviously your attention to detail, but... Yeah. I mean, I think some of that attention to detail is taken for granted. I think the sourcing, everything that goes into everything we do, I think is often not understood or maybe taken for granted. I mean, the pizzas, the bread...

The pastas, we mill almost all the flour in-house using grains from local farmers. Why does that matter? Because to me, it was part of sourcing the right product and making the best thing that I could. And I think...

By doing that, it has, you know, a slightly nicer flavor. I think there's an overall benefit to it. And so to me, that was one of those attention details. It was one of those steps that we would take as part of the business. And so I think, you know, if you just try and compare apples to apples, well, I had a pizza at another restaurant and it was, you know, $2 less than

You can't necessarily do that. Using so many products from local farmers, sending a guy to the farmer's market and paying him to walk around the farmer's market for two hours collecting vegetables and the best strawberries he can get and the best herbs and then paying for an Uber to bring it over here and then unpack everything. I mean, it'd be so much easier to have everything just shipped to the door, but that's not what we want to do. And again, I think, you know,

that can be taken for granted. People don't realize how much goes into it. And I think in general, restaurants work very hard at trying to create good experiences and try and source profit and all those things. And I think there's a lot of restaurants that don't and not in a negative way. It's just, again, means to an end. It's not what they want to do. And I think it's very easy to

to try and group apples to apples. And it's not so easy in the restaurant business. I mean, if you think about your wine experience here, that's an extra step. It costs some money in some form or other. It slows things down. It's somebody's time. That's something we want to do. That's something we believe in. But you won't see that on most occasions. You're not going to pay attention to that. So again, it's those little things that get taken for granted.

It's interesting because in some cases, I mean, there's a story about what you're consuming in terms of like where it came from and what went into it and the craftsmanship, which is amazing. And in some cases, it's the absence of error or awkwardness that's really interesting. But those are hard to kind of, I would imagine, educate customers on because it's the lack of a feeling, not the feeling itself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say if somebody doesn't like something,

I'd rather them not like it because it's not their taste than for them to not like it because it didn't meet the expectation of another restaurant they went to or something they'd heard or they think it's too expensive. Again, it's really hard to say that these restaurants are apples to apples. I look at prices of other restaurants and I'll say, oh, well, their duck is the same price of ours or their duck is $3 more or whatever it is.

it's not fair for me to even judge that because I don't know what goes into it. I have an idea of what they're buying, but I don't know what goes into it. They could have, you know, a process that raises the price 200%. So again, I think it's very easy for us to just say, well,

to just try and compare. How subjective are the prices? Is it a cost plus pricing or is it... Yeah, pretty much everything is some kind of cost plus which calculates in your labor and your rent and all those things. Again, I think you're talking about what the customers realize or don't realize. Restaurants in general, it's a very costly business and

It's getting even harder and harder and harder. What's making it harder? Everything from the cost of goods to the cost of labor to insurance. I mean, this year alone, the cost of labor went up drastically. Cost of insurance went up drastically. Cost of goods have gone up a marginal amount, but we're not doing...

We're not doing a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in purchases. We do a substantial amount. So if you add 10% onto it, it's a very big number. You add in the increase in minimum wage, which I totally respect and understand, but it is a substantial difference. If I was driving around in a Lamborghini, I could understand saying that this is an unfair variance, and that's not the case, I think.

All these things are important for us to look at and understand. And the right cost of living is valid and fair, but there's a lot of, again, sort of trying to compare apples to apples. So it's probably a whole other podcast. But if you think about a worker at a local diner, a server at a local diner and what they make versus a server here, that's not apples to apples. You can't just group them as servers.

If you think of a cook at McDonald's and a cook here, they can't be grouped as apples to apples. And we're kind of forcing ourselves to do that. I mean, a cook at a restaurant like this has $50,000 in school loans to pay off between college and culinary school on average. A cook at McDonald's does not necessarily have the same thing.

So there's a lot of things I think in this industry that are getting harder and harder. And I think we'll see more shifts in some form or another. Either more restaurants closing than we want or prices going up even more and people eating out less. I'm not sure what it's going to be yet. You sense the changing kind of landscape. Yeah. I mean, costs are different. And

This isn't a nonprofit. I'm not doing this to get rich, but I'm also not doing it to be a nonprofit. I have investors to pay back. I have friends and family to pay back. And so do my fellow chefs, restaurateurs, managers who have gone out to do the same thing. And we were all griping about the same thing. In some form or another, we're in the same boat. What was the scariest moment that you've had since opening Luring Place?

The moment when you thought you were going to fail or the world seemed to be just pushing it on you. And how did you recover from that? I mean, I don't know if anything I would say was scary or felt failure. I think the hardest thing is the review process.

because part of you wants to just say, I'm doing what I believe in and screw everybody else. And then the other part of you says, okay, well, these guys unfortunately matter, right? People are paying attention to them. And it becomes kind of this struggle of, well, we're always trying to be perfect, whether you're a viewer or not, because we don't necessarily know who it is. We're always trying to be perfect, and we always want the service to be right and the food to be right, so it doesn't matter. And then at that same token, this feeling of,

OK, you know, you're getting judged. It would be like it would be like going to take your SATs and your scores only based on five questions that you don't know about. Like you take a test with, I don't know, 200 questions in it and only five of them mattered, but you don't know which five they are.

So for years, we worked so hard through this process of reviews. I mean, it's, I think, almost five months, changed the menu multiple times. I mean, really, we're working hard at fine tuning everything. And ultimately, the reviews were based on a handful of dishes. And, you know, we've gotten good reviews and I can't complain about that. But there is a feeling of, well, why do we work so hard to have reviews?

an amazing broccoli. Nobody talked about the broccoli. Why do we work so hard to have, uh, uh, an amazing halibut? Nobody talked about the halibut or whatever the case was. Um, you know, you're sort of just judged on, again, when you're a restaurant that has 40 something items, you're judged on like 10 of them. It can be hard to stomach those opinions. Um, and I think ultimately, again, we were very happy and I think the staff was happy. Um, but I, I,

I think it was certainly the hardest time in my life in terms of really trying to stay focused and, again, go back to I care about them, but I don't care about them. I'm doing what I believe in. I'm cooking from the heart, and I'm building something that the team that's here wants to be part of. And wherever the chips fall, they fall. So trying to have that mentality, but then also say –

Yeah, but they still matter. So, you know, got to always keep that in mind. And it's just a, it's a struggle. They matter because they drive traffic or they determine outcomes in a way. I think both. I mean, I think, you know,

We had plenty of chatter and we had plenty of press. But the reviews that theoretically matter, and I'm not even sure how much they matter today, given the new landscape of social media and blogs and so many other things out there. I mean, you have a social media influencer with a million followers. I would be interested to see the difference between that and the

the amount of subscribers that looked at XYZ Magazine's review. I mean, it's just, again, hard to balance. But I do think they helped to drive traffic. They helped to give a little bit of sense of not meaning but sort of recognition. You worked really hard, and here's a stamp of approval or, in some cases, a stamp of disapproval on it.

Ultimately, it's one person's opinion, but it does make a difference. I think that was the hardest thing for this. I think just getting the doors open, that whole struggle of, I mean, the construction was a beast. It just felt like we would never get open, couldn't get inspections, couldn't get gas, couldn't get construction finished up, you name it. All the while, I literally just see that proverbial bank account going lower and lower and lower. It's like negative balance every day.

And meanwhile, you can't stop what you're doing. You have to keep pushing forward, spending money to train and recipe test and to get ready to open. And when you open, you open. And at that point, it's, again, now the focus is like, I got to move away from all that negative. I got to go back to being positive. And I got to worry about the reviews. But I can't worry too much about the reviews. It's all like, I think, a big head game. When are you happiest? When am I happiest? When I'm here, I'm happiest when...

I've created great experience for a guest or an employee, an employee that, you know, say thank you for cooking next to me or I'm really excited I got to work on that today or that was a great event, whatever it is, like getting that interaction or a server coming over and saying, so I love waiting on your friends or I loved waiting on that table.

I think those things certainly make me happy. And I think obviously the instant gratification of somebody saying, wow, that was the best, blah, blah, blah. Or I got to tell you, this is my fourth visit here and each time it gets better. I mean, something like that. And then I think when I'm not here, it's when I'm able to kind of just turn off and be with my family and not have this constant hamster wheel running in the back of my mind.

I think that's a great place to leave it. Thank you so much for taking the time. My pleasure. Thank you. Hey guys, this is Shane again. Just a few more things before we wrap up. You can find show notes at farnamstreetblog.com slash podcast. That's F-A-R-N-A-M-S-T-R-E-E-T-B-L-O-G dot com slash podcast. You can also find information there on how to get a transcript.

And if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food, go to farnhamstreetblog.com slash newsletter. This is all the good stuff I've found on the web that week that I've read and shared with close friends, books I'm reading, and so much more. Thank you for listening.