#50 Josh Wolfe: Inventing the Future
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It's just really interesting to think about luck and skill. And if you really are humbled how much luck there is in the world and in whatever pursuit and domain you're doing, then it opens you up to the possibility that there's randomness and optionality and you should try to maximize that as cheaply as possible.

Hello and welcome. I'm Shane Parrish, and this is The Knowledge Project, a podcast exploring the ideas, methods, and mental models that help you learn from the best of what other people have already figured out. Learn more and stay up to date at fs.blog.com. This conversation is with Josh Wolfe, a founding and managing partner at Lux Capital in New York. Now, Lux is a VC firm, but not your typical VC firm. They spend most of their time in the hard sciences.

Josh is a believer in the idea that inventing the future is the best way to predict the future. As you'll see in this conversation, Josh is exceptional. We talk about learning, finding ideas, information processing, and our shared interests in Old School Rap. Let's get started. ♪

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Can you tell me a little bit about what Lux Capital does? At Root, we are trying to find brilliant people and back them and get really, really lucky. I mean, if you think about it as a midwife, we raise money from endowments and foundations and wealthy families and individuals. And then we deploy it into people who are inventing the future. As the old adage goes, that the best way to predict the future is to invent it. And then we are basically trying to figure out who's full of shit and not.

and who is real and who is faking it. And we try to deploy money to the people who are real. And...

Typically, there's a people that we're drawn to who have irreverence and slight arrogance, and they have a conception of the world that some people would conflate with arrogance of the highest order. They basically say, this is the way that the world ought to look, and I disagree with the consensus. And then we try to find those people and back them and give them the resources that they need to recruit and raise further money and execute on some plan. But we –

in essence, are trying to fund the future and trying to bet against the past and find the people that are inventing it. It sounds like that's almost an investing issue. But when you think about a large part of our lives are spent trying to distinguish between people who know what they're talking about and people who don't and people who sound like it and look like it and feel like it but aren't the real deal versus the people who are the real deal.

How do you go about separating the people who know what they're doing from the people who are just BSing you? Well, a big portion of what we do are fund scientists and entrepreneurial scientists. And so you have a mechanism which society has evolved over hundreds of years.

where you have peer review and you have publications, and those serve as a filtering process to determine is something just a hypothesis or was it observed and tested and you actually have conclusions and evidence. And so anybody that is coming up with a claim like this market by 2025 is going to be this hockey stick projection, I mean you're extrapolating into the future.

And the crazy thing about venture capital is you often have no priors. You have no prior comps that you can look at because the most important companies that are going to exist never existed before.

And so you're trying to figure out extrapolating from the recent past into an unknown future. You're trying to look at science, which itself is real because, you know, the number one question, it's amazing when you talk to some late stage growth investors, they go into companies and they say, what's the company, what's the question that I should be asking of this company? And the number one question is, does it work? And you'd be amazed in diligencing how many big investors fail to ask a simple question like, does it work?

So we have the benefit where we have a bias towards scientific entrepreneurs. And those are people that are generally rigorous. They're inventing something. It's patented. It's peer reviewed. It's replicable. And so it's not BS. And if you look at some of the frauds in our field, you know, typically it was all of those things, right? It was not BS. Exactly. Exactly.

I mean, that was the iconic one in this book, Bad Blood, which details it in salacious details. I just finished that. What an amazing sort of story, right? But what's amazing about it is I always say technologies change and businesses change and markets change, but human nature is a constant.

And so it's interesting because in the early days of Lux, I really believed if we had an edge in understanding something technologically that other people did not understand, we would have an advantage. So whether it was nanotech or advanced materials or something in chemistry or something in semiconductors or understanding solid state physics and what it could imply for energy density, all that's important. But what really matters is understanding human nature and psychology.

And so 90% of our successes and 99% of our problems in our companies are us playing armchair psychologist and trying to diagnose why is this team not effective? Why is the CEO a narcissist? And trying to find ways to ameliorate the situation or edge it towards a way that we want it to go. But it all comes down at the end to these two-legged mammals, these people and psychology. Let's

Let's go back to that for a second, because you operate in one of the most competitive markets in the world. Everybody wants to get an edge in understanding. Like everybody's out there trying to do that. Like, what are you doing that's different? Part of it is understanding first, what is everybody else looking at?

And then you try to find the white space. What are people not looking at? Now, I would argue public markets have it a lot harder because you have a universe of companies. That universe of companies is known. And then people are basically diagnosing whether something is undervalued, overvalued, if they have higher expectations than what the fundamentals support. And that's relatively an efficient market.

In venture capital, it's a really inefficient market because there is no known universe. You and I could be talking in a private room and we could decide that we're going to start up a company tomorrow and nobody else knows that information. And in fact, if you accept the premise that the best way to predict the future is to invent it, the people who are inventing it

are asymmetrically distributed. So there's a scientist or a group of scientists in a lab, or there's an entrepreneur who teams with a scientist. And my job is to find those people and persuade them that I'm the best partner as they persuade me that their science and vision is real before everybody else does. And so we always say even in venture capital, which you could argue is the most lemming-like field that there is, right? You see one company gets done and then there's 100 followers.

We're trying to find something that we think nobody else has discovered or found. And we actually, even though we view ourselves contrarian, we want people to agree with us just later. And so...

It's really finding these people asymmetrically distributed and then being the midwives to get it out to the masses later. And you find them through the publications, the journals. How do you map like somebody who's great at science versus like great running a business or do you partner them up with people or – It's a fascinating question. So on the business side, you are generally – you get to observe people who are great operators. Yeah.

And there, there's some pattern recognition and you have a network of people who can triangulate and diligence and tell you, okay, they're a horrible manager, but boy, are they a great communicator. They can really raise money, but they can't deploy it well. And so over time, you develop a cadre of people who you trust that are operators. Now, that said, some of the greatest entrepreneurs in history never ran a business before, right?

I mean Steve Jobs or Zuckerberg or Bill Gates or Larry Ellison, like that was their first foray and it just had this founder passion and right place, right time, brilliance, technological advantage, whatever it was. But on the scientific side, you're looking for sort of the informational surprise, right? Now there's a – I think correlation between people who are very prodigious. They're putting out a lot of papers. They're doing a lot of research. They're doing pretty cutting edge, non-obvious things. They're not just trying to get grants, but they're trying to really like make a name for themselves.

They're driven by the same virtue that they want discovery and all these sort of benevolent things, but they're also driven by the greed and ego of reputation. And if you find those people, they tend to be the aggressive postdoc in some other famous scientist's lab because they navigated to that. So for example –

Bob Langer at MIT is a prodigious output of PhDs who are very commercially minded. This is a guy who has made hundreds of millions of dollars, created billions of dollars of market value in companies, and attracts postdocs that want to be like him. They want to be rich. They want to be renowned. So that's a great vein to tap. And there's probably a dozen such scientists in the country.

In the US, where you can go and find these people and the postdocs and where they sort of traverse to and find that diaspora and develop relationships with them, stay close to them. They in turn are going to attract the postdocs who are going to want to be like them, rich and renowned. And it becomes this fountain of opportunity and innovation. You mentioned something in that response that really struck a chord with me, which is patterns. What are the patterns of success in the US?

It's easy to say – Successful people, successful leaders, like are there commonalities? You know, post facto, it's easy to find these patterns. But a priori, sometimes I think it's like what I call randomness and optionality, which defines so much of what we do and so much of my own personal life. Patterns. Somebody that is a great storyteller is really good for a startup business because they can recruit really well.

They are telling a story where you meet with that person, and one of my partners used to call it somewhat inappropriately the Pampers effect. You're like wetting yourself. You're like, oh, my God. I need to join this person. I need to invest with them. It's one of those things like the Justice Stuart Potter definition of pornography. You know it when you see it. You can't define it, but yeah. You have this palpable sense that this person has something special.

And you can see that they're talking to person X and person X is going to go home to her spouse and say, Oh my God, I need to join this person. And you can sort of predict that you can predict that you put them in front of a sophisticated investor. This person is going to get them to part with their money. Um,

And so that is one pattern which is, I think, great storytelling ability. Now, it's very hard in the early nascent embryonic stages of a business to really, and I'm being intellectually honest here, know if somebody is going to be an absolute genius or a total fraud.

Because the best storytellers are also the best con men or women, as it was in Theranos. And so I think it's really important to parse that, but that definitively is a pattern. Amazing narrative storytelling ability that captures all of the best and worst things about humanity. It captures our aspiration, our virtues, our sense of status, desire, greed, and people that are able to tap into that, who understand people better.

I think are really influential with people are almost always predictive of great success. If you can't predict at the start and you go into this with optionality and randomness, which I like that approach and I want to come back to that, especially in your personal life.

But if you can't predict art at the start, what are the signs as you're working with these people or going along that it's – they're not who you thought they were? Or what are the patterns that are emerging that are reducing or increasing the odds of failure, I guess? Well, I'll give you one. And this is in a few instances. Okay.

Somebody might be a great storyteller. They might be a great pitch person. And so we meet them and we spend an hour or two with them and we're really persuaded, wow, they can tell a succinct story. They can get people really excited. But we don't yet know how they operate a business. And you can start telling very early on if somebody is a control freak.

Now, somebody would be a control freak either because they're not hiring well and therefore they don't trust the people that they're working for because if they do, they would delegate to them very frequently. But there's other people that want to be involved in every decision. They want to control every decision. Now, if they do that, it's either because their standards are so high – and again, they don't trust the people – or they've got something to hide and they're trying to control the information. Oh, that's interesting. And so I think it's really hard to tell is somebody going to be a control freak or not.

You can get little clues of that in a presentation. If somebody is there with three people presenting to us and they do all the talking and they are talking for the other people, it's usually not a great sign. If somebody sort of steps back and starts lauding, let's say a CEO is the founder, and they turn to their CTO and they say, oh my God, she's incredible, and then just hands the floor over, that's a good sign.

Any other signs that somebody would be a control freak or any negative signs that you look out for that you get a hint of through presentations? I have a really politically incorrect one, which is older CEOs that by choice, not biologically because there's a big difference, never had children.

I find that for whatever reason, they tend to be very controlling. Now, my sample size here is like five of five in CEOs, CFOs, people who were at a variety of our companies that were over 50, never chose to have children.

And I find that you maybe never experience the humility. You maybe never experience the fact that, you know, I mean, you've got kids. You grow up with them. You see them. They can be like little terrorists, right? You can't control them. They act irrationally. Well, sometimes your suppliers or your vendors or your employers or your investors or your board act the same way. And there's something that is very humbling about having children that I find that the best operators tend to be able to manage their employees better when they've managed their kids well.

MARK MANDEL: How is the Josh I'm sitting across from right now different post-kids than the Josh I would have been interviewing pre-kids? JON FOUST: Probably a little bit more patient. I would say on the spectrum, I am very impatient.

You know, people here joke that I have this little lip curl and you could sort of read my impatience or if I'm in a meeting, I unfortunately have a terrible poker tell, which is this deep sigh, which is basically signaling my partnership will laugh because they know, okay, Josh is done with this meeting, you know. But I would say patience because I think I'm a reasonably intelligent and influential person in being able to persuade somebody of something.

But geez, when you have an eight-and-a-half-year-old and a six-year-old and a two-and-a-half-year-old and you're trying to get them to do something, you can use every tactic that Robert Cialdini has come up with and every tactic from Munger and every behavioral psychology thing you've learned from Kahneman and you still get tantrums and crying and dogmatic, intransigent kids. And so –

People laugh. A little bit more patience. People with their kids laugh when I tell them I get out-negotiated by my eight and nine-year-old like on a regular basis. Yeah, and not because they're necessarily that sophisticated. They're not using tactics of like, you know, I know that you know – Dogging persistence. Yeah, and just like a willingness to totally embarrass you in public and scream and throw a tantrum. And by the way, when they do those things, they do them because it works. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

I try not to give in to that stuff. Talk to me a little bit about randomness and optionality and how you use that at work and how you use it in your personal life. So a lot of this is a post facto intellectually honest observation, which is, my gosh, so many things that have happened in my life for better and worse are largely outside of my control.

And so, you know, you always have that sort of overlapping stoic mindset, right, of what are the things that matter and what are the things that you actually control and that's where you should focus. But I look at the circumstances post facto of how probably the most important decision in my life, which was meeting my wife and her agreeing to date me and marry me and, you know, choosing to have kids, the circumstances of where we lived, timing, you know, sort of the old sliding doors, you know, phenomenon and all the counterfactuals that could have happened.

And so when you look at the panoply of things in life, there is so much randomness. And of course, you have to be smart. And when you see an opportunity, you seize it. But there's so many things where just a chance meeting or somebody that you're meeting with who is in a good mood or a bad mood, you know, it could have been a totally different situation on a singular pivoting turn of events, one fulcrum of an individual. So I look at this. There's nothing in my life

that a priori would have predicted that I would have met this guy, Bill Conway, the founder of the Carl Hall Group, who would have put us in business. And the day that he put us in business, I believe he was in a good mood. He could have been in a terrible mood. He could have gotten bad news. He could have been meeting with me and said, you know, what am I doing meeting with this young guy? I don't have time, you know. And I've been in that, right? I've been in that situation where I'm distracted. I've got something else on my mind. And the person that I'm sitting across from is suffering from the misfortune of the circumstances of that moment.

And there's other times where I just ate a great lunch and I just had some chocolate and caffeine and I'm feeling great and I just got a great news from my wife about something else and I'm in a bullion mood and it's totally changed the circumstances. It has nothing to do with the person that I'm sitting across from, but the circumstances are just in their favor at that moment. And you see this, you know, there's –

empirical evidence. I don't think it's apocryphal of judges and the fate of people who are standing before judges before or after lunch and whether the judges are cranky or whether they're well-fed and sated. So that's one thing, which is when I look at the post facto circumstances of my life,

ex post facto, it's this perfect linear chain of events, but a priori, you never know. You never know the person you're sitting next to on a plane. You can sit there quietly or you can strike up a conversation. And it might turn out that one of the topics that you talk about is relevant because their brother-in-law's friend is actually the exact person that you need to meet. And you never would have known that. So meeting my wife, meeting our first big investor who really changed our life

Even across the portfolio, I have this phenomenon that I call 100-0-100. And it's an interesting observation that is a mix of arrogance, certainty, total uncertainty, humility, ambition, and you put all these things into this framework. What it basically says is it's different probabilities. The first probability, 100%, is the arrogant assertion. I am 100% certain that Lux will be investing in the most cutting-edge crazy stuff that you can imagine over the next two years.

The zero that follows is I have 0% certainty what those things will be. No idea. Now I have an inkling, and it's near 100% certain of where I will find them, which is at the edge of our already cutting-edge companies. And case after case of starting a company in a crazy area like Metamaterials, which led to this company called Chimeta,

which I co-founded with Bill Gates. And I'm in a board room with Bill Gates and he's on the board of this company. It's the only board he's been on besides Berkshire and Microsoft. There's nothing that a kid from Coney Island, Brooklyn could have imagined or done or classes to take or that would end up in a boardroom with Bill Gates. Nothing. You know, it was a series of circumstances and luck.

But I'm in this boardroom, and then I find out that these young guys in San Francisco want to take these antennas that are as flat as an iPad and put them on small satellites. And so we go and chase those guys down. Now, that was a piece of lucky information.

followed by the instinct to go chase it down. But that led to our investment in this company called Planet. And then from that, we get the insight that all the imagery that's going to be coming off of these satellites is going to be commoditized. And the real value is going to be the processing of that using artificial intelligence and machine learning to look at different spaces over different times to make insights for hedge funds and corporate espionage and all that kind of stuff. And that led to this company, Orbital Insight.

None of those things a priori was knowable. It's how one thing led to the next led to the next. And I've got five or six different companies where the only way I would have found them was because we were invested in some prior company where I got some secret insight inside of a boardroom that led me to it. So total randomness and optionality.

And if you're, I think, humble to the idea that luck matters so much and particularly – I always love Michael Mauboussin I think as the best measure of whether something is luck versus skill. Can you fail on purpose?

and in our world, you could totally fail on purpose. I think that there's a little bit more skill in the public markets, interestingly. If I tried to pick the very worst company in the world, it could still double on me if I was shorting it because you could have a promotional CEO. It's just really interesting to think about luck and skill, and if you

really are humbled to how much luck there is in the world and in whatever pursuit and domain you're doing, then it opens you up to the possibility that there's randomness and optionality and you should try to maximize that as cheaply as possible. How do you go about maximizing that while keeping in mind opportunity costs? It is a constant trade-off between exploration and exploitation.

I am trying to read as much as I can, and I get information anxiety. I read not only the things that I think everybody else is reading, because to me that's anting. That's table stakes. So I read in the morning the Financial Times. I read the New York Times. I read the Wall Street Journal. I read the Washington Post. I read USA Today. My wife makes fun of me. I say, well, I need to read USA Today because I need to know whatever X million Americans are waking up in Marriott and being influenced by. That gives me another angle of information.

But then when I'm reading those things, I'm also reading them not for what it says on page one, because I've got this other theory, which I'll share with you. But I'm reading for what does the editor put on C-22 of the newspaper that they decree to be less important, and I have a different weighting of the magnitude of its importance. That, to me, is the meta-insight. So I've got this framework on information processing, which I call Fitzgerald, Twain, and Schopenhauer.

And each of these was a famous literary giant that had a quote that I think defines where we should direct our attention. And so Fitzgerald's famous quote was, the test of a first-rate intellect is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in your head at the same time and still retain the ability to function. I mean, great. Who wouldn't want that? Most of the front-page news for the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal are the FT.

are Fitzgerald situations. There's a smart person saying that gold is nothing but a shiny piece of metal. There's a smart person saying it's a great store of value in an otherwise fiat currency world. There's somebody saying that China is a fraud about to blow up with over indebtedness and state manipulation of statistics. And there's somebody else that's saying this is the engine of growth for the next decades to come. And the only certainty is in the uncertainty in the volatility between these two sides that are playing out over time.

The second situations are twain situations. And his famous dictum was, it ain't what you don't know that kills you. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. And so what is the thing that everybody is predicting linearly is going to continue? And then boom, there's informational surprise.

And informational surprise we'll turn to also because I think it's such an important concept. To me, it's like the physics of information, it's entropy. Informational surprise, I think, defines everything, in markets especially. But here, great examples, you know, 10 years ago was housing. Housing prices could only go up. And on that false assumption, which you had historic support for, all of a sudden, boom, there's this big shock and big surprise. And

And so informational surprise when people are predicting linear continuation of some trend and then it surprises to the downside shocks the heck out of people.

And so there we're basically saying, what do people know for sure and where might they be wrong? And we're looking for the non-obvious low probability thing. And then the final situation, which is where we spend most of our time, is the Schopenhauer dictum, which is talent can hit a target that nobody else can hit and genius can hit a target that nobody else can see.

And that goes back to the asymmetric information contained in the minds of the scientists who feel like they have the answer or have a secret that nobody else knows. And our job is to find those people before everybody else knows that secret. Typically, it is a technological secret. And then give them money. I want to deep dive into not only what else you're reading, but how you go about processing this information and specifically the physics of information. Okay. So my processing...

I wake up in the morning, I check my email because I've got a West Coast team that's three hours behind. If I go to sleep 12 or 1 o'clock and I'm usually most productive in the evenings, that is a longstanding thing because I'm a psychotically competitive person and I would feel most productive when I thought that everybody else was sleeping. I was motivated thinking that my peers were sleeping on Sundays when they were watching American football.

I would be reading and learning something. I loved football, but I loved playing it on Madden and I could do it quickly and that's how I would learn my team rosters. I'm typically in the morning waking up and catching up on, let's say, what's the equivalent of 9 p.m. West Coast time to midnight where my team is also competitive. That's the morning. Email first, then I'm checking Twitter. I follow a lot of people on Twitter. There's a lot of engaging conversations, a lot of rich content. You never know. It's total randomness and optionality.

Then I'm reading a handful of papers in the morning. When I say read, I'm really skimming headlines and trying to find patterns and trends. I'm taking screenshots of various charts and information, and I might share with my team or cross-reference things. I might even assemble a little collage of interesting phenomenon or headlines. Then there's a whole slew of blogs, including yours, that I find really information rich and give me lots of interesting ideas.

Then when I get to the office on any given week, I've got nature and science and chemical and engineering news and proceedings at the National Academy of Science and New England Journal of Medicine. And I'm flipping through these things, again, just looking for interesting trends. And sometimes the trends pop up. And I never know, right? There are times where I get depressed. I say, my God, you know, I just had this great idea on nuclear, which we'll talk about. And then a few years go by and I was successful. I'm like, I have no idea what my next idea is going to be.

But it's that 100-0-100. I'm always confident that it's going to come from somewhere. I mean, there's endless – it's just like this cornucopia of possibility and ideas and you just reach and grab them and all of a sudden, ah, there's this thing that nobody else is thinking about. And so it's sort of this mosaic of just finding different sources, putting them together, seeing trends and patterns. And it's really for me –

Is anybody else talking about this or thinking about this? You know, like to me, crypto today is not really interesting because it's so interesting to everybody. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, you know, the clean tech and green tech thing going back almost a decade, everybody was talking about it. What nobody was talking about was nuclear. And it was just interesting. It's like some famous people set the agenda.

And that was Al Gore, and it was John Doerr, who was a venture capitalist at Kleiner Perkins, and it was Vinod Khosla, another famous VC. And they were talking about solar and wind and biofuels and ethanol and electric cars and batteries. Nobody was talking about nuclear. And so I got really interested in the thing that nobody was talking about. Maybe they weren't talking about it for good reason.

But equally or more probable was that it didn't comport with a worldview or didn't comport with something that they understood or they didn't know about it. And so as I dug into nuclear, I started looking at every part of the fuel cycle in nuclear. Now, mind you, this is 2009, 10. I knew nothing about nuclear. I mean, literally nothing. I knew how to pronounce it better than George Bush. But aside from that, I knew nothing.

We look at the uranium miners, mostly hucksters and fraudsters in New Mexico and Nevada. And we said, okay, not really venture backable. We looked at the people that were doing processing and enrichment, and that's really for defense and very small contract. We looked at the services business, and we looked at every part of the fuel cycle.

And then we looked at modular reactors and we said, okay, wait, maybe there's something here. Instead of building a billion dollar nuclear plant, you could build 30 megawatt plants for very cheap and build them one at a time. But it turns out that the timeframes and the regulatory risk and it's just in the amount of money that you would need, it was too capital intensive and too risky. And then you look, and I always turn my turret of attention to this very sophisticated two word question, what sucks?

It's amazing in the same way that big investors often don't ask, does it work about a technology? You just turn to something and you look around. Almost everything that we use, everything that was invented started with somebody saying, huh, that sucks. That could be better. I've got a better idea. Yeah. Then they take that better idea and actually instantiate it and raise money and build a team and so on. The more sophisticated the technology that captures the solution, the better advantaged they are. In this case, we looked at nuclear and said, well, what's the biggest problem? The

You've got this big political debate about whether you take it to a place, Yucca Mountain, and make this geological repository. You've got people saying that they're going to transmutate it and process it. And so we looked for the best and the brightest in the field. We locked up a whole bunch of people, a whole bunch of technologies, started this company from scratch, really out of a crazy idea. Named it after Madame Curie, who discovered and ultimately died from radiation, called it Curion, spelled with a K. We funded that in 2010, and then a year later positioned it.

Again, randomness and optionality. We have no idea. Is nuclear going to be a renaissance? Are people going to catch on and say, yeah, this makes a lot of sense? Or are people going to just say, shut down nuclear. We want alternatives like solar and wind. Or are things just going to stay status quo in any one of those situations?

If you look at it, you are intelligently positioned. If there's new nuclear, you have more demand for waste cleanup. Status quo, plants get older, they produce more waste, more demand for waste cleanup. Catastrophe strikes or a zeitgeist that says shut down nuclear, more demand for waste management. So any way you cut it, we could win. And we got very lucky as a company, a small company.

when Japan got very unlucky. And the Fukushima disaster, which was never forecast, it was never imagined. We never thought, you know what, we'll fund a nuclear waste company that does high-tech cleanup. And geez, I really hope that there's going to be some geological, you know, catastrophe that leads to a tsunami, earthquake tsunami in this Fukushima disaster.

But this little company became the only US company picked for the cleanup. And we, on very little capital invested in that, end up having this positive black swan, this really low probability, high magnitude event that was a reaction to a really low probability, highly negative event in Japan. And that all started because we had this crazy idea that nobody else was thinking about. I have two questions on this. First one is,

How did you go about knowing nothing to getting comfortable starting a company in a very complex industry? So it's interesting because when we started Lux, people told me that I was taking the biggest risk. And I looked at this and said, well, what's my risk? You know, I come from no money. My mom's a school teacher in Coney Island, Brooklyn. My worst case scenario is I fail and then I go back and join the mainstream, which was just not part of my sort of mindset. And

When you start a company, everything is a risk. Financing risk, technology risk, management risk, product risk. In fact, I always think of this like the first law of thermodynamics, that energy is not created or destroyed. Risk and value themselves are just changing form. And every time that you can kill a risk, subsequent value gets created because a later investor arguably is taking less risk. They should demand a lower quantum of return because they're taking less risk. And so I always think about risk as killing it to create value.

But in this case, we're starting a company. Sure, it's all risk, but the worst case is we put a few million dollars in, it doesn't take off. We can't recruit a team. We don't get traction. The technology doesn't work. But that to me isn't really risky. Now, for an entrepreneur, remember, there's an asymmetry of risk-taking. We have a portfolio, 100 plus companies. For an entrepreneur, they're putting all of their eggs in one basket. And so it really depends on the risk tolerance of the entrepreneur. But in this case, we were able to find...

A group of people that were really passionate, deeply believed that nuclear was the answer, believed that it was under-discussed,

and underinvested. And we teamed with them, we funded them, and then really together a combination of good execution and an enormous amount of luck. But you did a deep dive on this. I spent a year and a half. What was that process? Okay. So it started with reading, right? Reading scientific papers and reading journals and trying to understand, okay, what's this nuclear waste problem? And I had a few analysts that were working with me that were feeding me information and helping to distill it. But most importantly, they were setting up calls.

And so we would talk to somewhere between four and six people a day. So you're talking to 20 to 30 people a week. And you're trying to triangulate. And I would actually map out, you know, different people use different mind mapping kind of software. We actually use the thing called Poplet, which, you know, you can download for free. It's an iPad app. I happen to like it because you just...

You start with a square and then you make a link to somebody else and it's like, okay, who you just spoke to. And then you can change – I do it visually – the sort of weighting of the size of these squares over who you think is more valuable and insightful. With every person that you talk to incrementally, you become a little bit more intelligent so that when you have your subsequent, your third conversation, your fourth conversation, you now have taken the best ideas that you learned from the second person and you're sharing it. And now I have a little bit more credibility when I'm talking to the fifth person.

And so a combination of learning from each subsequent conversation, and then almost like a neural net, you're back propagating. I speak to the fifth person and they're like, oh yeah, that person that you spoke to the second time, they're full of it. Well, okay, now I have to understand, are they academic rivals? Are they just disagreeing about something? Or is this person like really more of a promotional scientist and don't know what they're talking about? And sometimes I have to change the weighting. And so I changed my story. And that really for the first year

was just talking and learning from everybody so that I would be able to go, let's say, to the head of the Nuclear Energy Commission and impress because I knew what I was talking about. And so I'm reducing my ignorance. I'm sucking up as much as I can from different people. I'm evolving my narrative. And then the more credible I get, the lower the slope for me to be able to recruit people.

So as we became more informed, then I start talking to people. I start sharing a vision. They get excited. Now they're on board. Now all of a sudden I start with this entity that was just a total crazy idea and now I've got somebody who's very serious involved. And then I go and start recruiting an advisory board. And these are very famous people that built big businesses in the space and now I've got more credibility. And so it really is very much like starting a movie.

It starts with a script. And before the script, you know, you have sort of a napkin sketch. It's like a storyboard. I have an idea of what this movie should look like. And now I have to go on a casting call. And I've got to find the actor. But the actor doesn't want to go unless the director's there. Right. And the director doesn't want to join unless this producer's going to do it. Yeah. And so it's a little bit of a con game where you're trying to build confidence amongst everybody in this hugely risky and uncertain thing to them, which to me is very unrisky because my worst case is it doesn't work. And...

But for them, the risk is reduced if this other person's involved. Totally, because it's social proof. But then you say, okay, you see somebody and they say, ah, that person's a credible person and they've got a good reputation and I want to be affiliated with them. And so like we get pitched, by the way, I'm not going to name names, but there are some people that come in and I love what they're doing. But then I see an advisory board with one or two people. And for me, these are like red flag people. They're like total BS scientists or promoters or like authors that I think are full of it. And I just like shake my head. And to me, it's a...

It's a signal of bad judgment for the CEO who doesn't know how to discern between the scientifically credible and the total promoters. And I'm not going to badmouth that person and say, oh my God, you shouldn't be in business with them. But like we'll just pass sometimes. But it's a signal for you. It's a total signal. So –

The process, we started, we read voraciously, you meet with a ton of people, you're sharing what you're learning, you're testing your hypotheses in real time, they're giving you feedback, you're changing your narrative, you're using that narrative to then talk to and recruit other people. Those people get credibility for the next person and all of a sudden just gets a life of its own.

And then you wake up a year and a half later and you're like, I think I understand this. Yeah. And we're going to put real money to work here and we're going to recruit people and we're starting this company. And then it's the signal also. And so I'm doing this right now in the genetic space, a space that I know a little bit about. But we started with this crazy thesis about X-Men.

Could you find the rare mutants in the world and could you sequence them and search for them and then sequence them and then develop drugs that might be opposite of the condition that they have to help humanity that they may possess the secrets inside of their code. And it starts with an idea and I start talking to people and I get referrals and then I think that I've got one scientist and then somebody else is like, oh, that person is not really credible. And so then I discount the weight on that person and it's literally like weighting a neural net.

And then before you know it, I've got five people that are scientists that are like, oh my God, this is what I want to do for the next 10 years of my life. And they're so inspired by the story. And then those people, I'm able to point to these executives and say, I have some of the best scientists in the world. And then one thing leads to another and all of a sudden you have a company. What is nobody talking about today, aside from the X-Men thing, that people will be talking about in your mind in five or 10 years? Well, it's...

It's interesting. There is a broad set of phenomenon that I like to identify across segment sectors, industries that I call directional arrows of progress. And the directional arrows of progress are

They're sort of undeniable. And by the way, this is what led us to the company Curion and Nuclear Waste. If you look at a directional arrow of progress in energy, you went from carbohydrates to hydrocarbons to uranium. And the undeniable arrow of progress there was more and more energy density per unit of raw material.

When you discover the directional arrow of progress, to me, it's almost like this universal principle. It's trending in a certain way regardless of who the actors are, regardless of who the people are or the companies are. It's just trending that way. Same thing with

semiconductors. You went from, or computing, you went from spinning disks and mechanical systems to solid state hard drives. With lighting, you went from filament bulbs and analog, or you went from fire to filaments to solid state LEDs. So you see these trends where you're like, yeah, why would we ever go back to that other thing? And so in energy, people were going back to agrarian economies where we were growing biofuels, and that made no sense. You

The idea today, if somebody was like, hey, I've got a more efficient flame candle, you'd be like, why would we ever do that? We've got LEDs that are more light than heat. They don't give off heat and they're energy efficient. And so you see some of those arrows of progress. One that I don't think people are paying a lot of attention to today is one that I've called the half-life of technology intimacy. This is a trend about how we interact with our computers. And you see it, and regardless of how it is instantiated,

Undeniably to me, this is the direction that things are going. Now, we've made one recent bet, one investment around a team, a technology, and it embodies all of the things that we love to do. I don't know if we're going to be right. I have high confidence in it, but you can see the trend of which I feel really certain about. Here's how it works.

50 years ago, you had a giant ENIAC computer sitting over there in the corner of a room, and it was the size of multiple refrigerators. And the way that you would interact your human body with that computer was to go up and flick some switches, pull some plugs, and it was enormous, body-sized. First half-life, 25 years ago. Now you have a personal computer on your desk, a desktop. You are tickling the keys with your fingers. You have a mouse under your palm.

That's the way you're physically interacting with it. And you're touching the monitor with your thumb on and off. 12 and a half years ago, the dominant form is now a laptop. Now you're tickling the keys. You have a touchpad instead of a mouse. Maybe you still use a mouse. And now it's physically on your lap. The computer has gotten closer to you. Six and a half years ago, the next half-life.

Now you have an iPhone. The first thing you touch in the morning, the last thing you touch at night, you swipe it, you tap it, you caress it, you click it. And for most men, the only separation from the human body is a thin film of fabric in your pants as you keep it in your pocket all day long.

Three and a half years ago, I'm wearing an iWatch right now, constant physical contact with my skin with no barrier. A year and a half ago, next half life, AirPods. People forget them, right? You leave them in their ear, they're so comfortable. The undeniable arrow of progress, that directional trend is more and more intimacy. It's becoming closer to you. Totally. Soon it'll be either like inside you or just omnipresent. Exactly. Now, and what's interesting is as the technology becomes, quote unquote, more technological and more sophisticated-

it actually becomes more invisible and more human.

And so what has intrigued me is not, you know, standing in front of these giant supercomputers, you know, like bibubabu bibubabu with, you know, flashing lights. It's human interaction. It's literally gesture and voice, things that feel more natural. And there is a trend across a lot of fields where this idea of natural, I think, not in a moral sense, but in a technological arrow of progress. I'll give you another one in a moment. But in this case, we found a scientist

And how did we find this person? Because they were a postdoc under one of our other scientists that we funded. So randomness and optionality. We back one guy. He happens to be this brilliant scientist at Columbia who reverse engineered the neural correlates for taste. And we funded him in a company called Calliope that is reverse engineering your gut-brain axis to understand how you feel the sense of satiety and fullness or sugar sensing inside of your gut or psychosocial feelings like I have a gut feeling or I have butterflies in my stomach.

That guy, his name is Charles Zucker, he was a thesis advisor to this guy, Thomas Riordan, who, like any good sci-fi character, goes by Riordan, single name. And Riordan's work after, I mean, this guy is fascinating. He's got 18 brothers and sisters. He was a math and science prodigy, didn't go to college, gets tapped by Bill Gates, becomes Bill's right-hand guy for a decade plus in Microsoft, single-handedly codes Internet Explorer, and

and makes a lot of money, retires, does another company, retires, and then early 30s now, being rich and retired, technologically praised, does what anybody ought to do and goes to Columbia and gets his undergraduate degree in classics and Latin and literature, and then spends the next eight years getting a PhD in neuroscience. And the result of that PhD work was exactly this trend of technology that we're talking about, which was being able to put something like a wristband on your forearm

where it can detect your neural signals as you move your fingers perfectly. But what's crazier is I could hold your hand in a fist and you could just think about moving your fingers and it's able to detect the signals from that. What that implies is that you will wear something akin to a bracelet or a wristwatch and you will be able to gesture like

Disney's Sorcerer's Apprentice, to flick your fingers to turn on the lights, to swipe like you would swipe in three-dimensional free space to change a song on Spotify, to raise your fingers like you were a conductor in an orchestra to raise the volume or to lower it. And I fell in love with the science, with the technology, with the possibility, with the fact that it was singular, that there was nobody else doing this.

and we funded it. But that is an example that I don't think people are really talking about today. And as they see it and experience it, it's like that quote that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. It feels magical. And people's response when they experience it is, I want that. And that's a really powerful thing. So that's a trend that I think people are underappreciating. In that same vein,

the idea of technology becoming more natural, more invisible. There is a phenomenon in 3D printing called generative design, and it's really a computational approach to making stuff. As we sit in this room and most people are listening, most of the objects around them, if they just look around, are rectilinear. They're squares, they're rectangles, they're straight lines, and that's the way that we engineer things because they're mathematically precise. The

The way that nature engineers things, you look at a forest, a tree, you look at river, I mean, all this stuff is sort of crooked timber bent, but it's mathematically precise, but in a biological way. Even the structure of our bones, they're not perfect rectangles, but nature evolved mathematical precision in these amorphous structures.

asymmetric structures. Well, it turns out that the best way if you want to make a hinge is not to just make a right angle hinge, but to tell the computer, figure out for the given material, the best structure and what it evolves computationally in silico in the computer is something that looks more like Gaudi architecture.

or an H.R. Giger alien-looking model. It looks flowy and organic, and I believe that within a decade, you will see architectural structures, you will see product design, you will see components inside of vehicles and industrial products that look way more biological because they were designed, interestingly, by a computer that are figuring out ways that don't

rely on what humans have evolved or created mathematically precise architectural structures. It won't be that strict, you know, right angle federalist kind of building. It'll be this weird flowy thing and it'll have properties that have almost outsmarted us.

I wonder, like, what will office buildings look like if, like, I mean, we have this very square design usually with, like, this is what an office looks like. This is what a cubicle looks like. If this were, if we had a biologically designed office building, what would that look like?

And what variables would the computer be maximizing for? Would it be interactions between people, quiet? You have to pick something. Totally. And there's trade-offs, right? So this is interesting because if you look at the Gates Foundation building, it's sort of two boomerangs that traverse and look like an X. And you say, okay, well, the people at the far ends of the X are very distant from each other.

If you look at the new Apple headquarters, it's a giant circle, sort of infinite loop. It's symbolic. But I think, geez, if I had to get from one place to the other, like, you know, you have to sort of go back inside the radius and then, you know, traverse in a different angle. And so it's going to be very interesting thinking about that.

I do remember – There is a building like the Apple building that existed long before the Apple building, which is GCHQ, which is the British version of NSA created the exact same building. What were the sociological effects of that? Were people more likely to bump into each other, less likely to bump into each other? I think the argument was they're more likely to bump into each other. But whether that makes them more productive or better or happier workers, that remains to be –

means to be seen so uh i'm a cornell alum when they were building the engineering center at the time it was called duffield hall after dave duffield i remember the architect had all these different designs and typically when you see these designs they're like these big flowing atriums and they've got these three-dimensional um uh animated you know models of the people you know interacting in the engineering in the halls most of these people are very introverted they're not social people they want to do their work they keep to themselves they're not interacting

If they had this structure that was this big atrium, they found that people were not interacting with each other. They would hug the walls and stay away from each other and the empty space stayed really empty. The way to create interaction, interestingly enough, was to constrain the space. So they had to make the halls narrower and the buildings tighter in structure. But it is fascinating thinking about it. I know you've written about this. You've covered this. How are spaces different?

define our behavior, which in turn define our spaces. And city planning and organizing, it's a fascinating phenomenon. What are your thoughts on how your environment here at Lux influences your decision-making, your curiosity, your- Well, I like the randomness and optionality, so I like bumping into everything. Here we have very open glass offices. We have big open space.

Um, for people to get to my office, they have to pass through, you know, everybody else's office people are seeing. So there's information flow as people see who's walking by. Um,

You know, it increases the optionality where somebody is meeting with somebody and they can come and just sort of signal outside my office and I pop out and say hello. So we really want that sort of randomness and optionality and the flow and the networking and the connectivity of people that are coming and going here. But I don't know that we've optimized it. How do you create – you said information flow, which is super interesting because it's also a highly competitive platform.

externally. Venture. It's highly competitive internally. I would imagine the type of people that you're attracting. How do you create a culture where knowledge is not necessarily power? Which would...

people to share it. So, um, I am not very fond of many management books, but there's one that I like a lot that was tribal leadership. And it's interesting because it details exactly what you just said about how people silo information. If you think about the different tribes inside of a culture, you have, you know, call it tribe number one, which are basically people who have the life mantra of life sucks. They're just bitter, uh,

And they're totally alone. You know, they're miserable. And it's like 2% of organizations. And that would be like, you know, people in jail and homeless populations and really unfortunate circumstances. The next layer up, which would be tribe two, is my life sucks. People who feel like they're victims. And you probably have 20% of people in organizations that are like that. And probably the vast New York City square rectilinear office buildings are filled with people that feel no sense of loyalty whatsoever.

to their local worker. They just are punching a clock, can't wait to go home, watch TV, pop a beer, be with their family. The next layer is I'm great, you're not. These are people that are exactly as you described. They silo information. It is a zero-sum game. They are competitive because ultimately somebody else's loss is their gain internally. They're fighting for promotion. They're fighting for title. They're fighting for bonus. They're fighting for credit. They're

The next layer up, which I think is where we are, is we're great, they're not. We have an internally collaborative, externally competitive culture. So we are trying to share information. I mean, probably half my emails on any given day are internal emails where we are recapping meetings that we took,

information that we gleaned, noting what's confidential and what shouldn't be shared outside the organization or with our portfolio companies. But it's just there's so much intel and information that we're triangulating amongst the team. And we typically, if somebody is like quiet amongst – we've got 10 investing professionals. If somebody is not opting in, sometimes they're traveling a lot, but we want to make sure that they're recapping their meetings, recapping their conversations, recapping tidbits that we heard from board meetings.

because that institutionally shares and creates this network effect internally. But at the same time, we're siloing that from our competitors. Now on occasion, we will, but everybody internally has access to that. All those meetings. Very simply, right? Like we do it through Gmail, Gmail, super easy to search and query. Um,

We use Slack. It gets varying levels. Some of these systems are only as good as their weakest user. Oftentimes, that weakest user is me. But Gmail is really effective. And we have a simple subject. We have certain queries and elements that we use in the syntax of how we describe these things, whether we're meeting with a person or giving a recap of a board meeting. But it's all there. And so if I type Shane Parrish into Google, it's going to show everything in Gmail, including because we share so much, that

my colleagues had interactions with. And so that's, I think, a really rich way to do it. It's imperfect, but we definitely err on transparency. Talk to me a little bit about how the information flows. I'm just envisioning, you've got 100 companies, you have outside investors, you have people internally who are summarizing meetings at these companies, summarizing technological trends, giving you information. You're

You're the mecca of where this information flows. How do you process that? How much of your time is on email? How do you filter information? What's the... So if we think about what's important in any given company, the first thing is how can we help them? Yeah.

So somebody, you know, we always put literally at the bottom or top of emails, depending on what it is, we're describing the net of the meeting. So it could be, okay, we just got back from the board meeting. Here's the cash position. Here's the number of employees. We're reminding people of the snapshots. This is the most important thing for the next month, depending on the cadence of different companies have different cadence. Some we have monthly board meetings, some it's bimonthly, some it's quarterly, but this is the most important thing. And so we're tracking that internally, both so that we know how the company is performing, but also what can we do to help them?

They really need help with these three hires. Somebody is hiring a VP of finance. Somebody is hiring a VP of product. Somebody needs a chief people officer. And then we're thinking in our network, okay, who do we have access to? And so now everybody is primed. And through our Monday and Thursday weekly meetings, we're thinking, okay, this is our recruiting list. And then we have to make the decision. A candidate comes up where we find out about

How do we route them to which opportunity? And so there are some companies where they could be the perfect fit, but relative in our portfolio, there might be a higher and better use for that person. And so part of that is people routing. The collective information that we have, we're recapping, we're sharing information, we're getting tidbits of information, and then you're just trying to connect people

a dot to one of our companies. Somebody else might say, "We just got these terms from this particular venture debt lender." Well, that for us is information that we can use across our portfolio. If we say, "Geez, they're lending at a lower rate," then okay, we now have competitive information that an existing bank ought to match these prices. It's important for us as an aggregating node, it's value add to our portfolio, that if we know that Silicon Valley Bank or Square One or somebody else is offering somebody better terms, that should normalize across the portfolio.

If there's somebody that is teeing up a media opportunity, if Bloomberg is looking for the 40 under 40, we're going and figuring out who are the technological geniuses inside of our portfolio that we can tee up to give them media exposure. And so everybody is sort of always all hands on deck. We call this Unum Lux, One Lux. And it's not just about your portfolio companies. And we want people to know, even as portfolio managers of your individual companies where you're sitting on boards, like

You know, the good things are all one lux and the bad things are all one lux. So, you know, sometimes you might have a situation in a company and you've got a difficult CEO and, you know, maybe you have a good relationship with them and I have to come in and be the bad guy.

Or maybe another partner has the ability to recruit technological people and they're coming about. But everybody's sort of always working on each other's companies. It sounds like you could almost get caught up in just spending your day reading all the other information coming in. How do you prevent that from happening? I get information anxiety. It never stops. It's like way beyond the Red Queen theory. You have to run like three times as fast just to even keep up.

A lot of things will get lost in the mix. Now, obviously, if something is super important, somebody internally will resend it at various times.

Our VP of finance might be asking people to fill out something related to reserves, how much money we're reserving for a given company. Sometimes that's the most important thing for her. Somebody else might be saying, the most important thing is I need your candidate recommendations for this media list. Somebody else might be saying, we're going to host an event around the future of technology in automation and manufacturing. I need you.

At any given point, somebody has a priority that to them is the most important thing. Part of the job that Peter and I who run the firm have is dialing up and reinforcing those priorities saying, "Hey, we need answers to this, this or that from the people."

But reading is a huge part of it. I mean, again, it's this exploration versus exploitation. You're ingesting enormous amounts of information. Public information, our sort of secret proprietary information from all the information flow that we have, the network of our entrepreneurs, tidbits that we're hearing here and there, parsing what is public gossip versus what is private and really confidential information.

And then by the way, at any given point in time, we've got bad news. Across 100 companies, something's going wrong. You might have misbehavior by a CEO. You might have a contract. You might have a dispute. You might have a litigation. I mean, and so you have to prioritize those. And every now and then you have fire drills. And that can be all consuming because now you're reacting to something that you fail to anticipate. I have a quote internally, which everybody has been indoctrinated by, which is that failure comes from a failure to imagine failure.

So venture by definition is a cheerleader business. You're optimistic, you're promoting the future, you're supporting companies who against all odds are likely to fail and you're cheering them on. But I think internally and privately, you have to anticipate what is everything that could possibly go wrong with this company so that you can help to put time and talent and money to prevent those bad things from happening. Do you schedule time to think and reflect?

You know, not enough. There were times where I would have two or three hours and often it was reactive. I would tell my assistant, BB, who runs, you know, I would say we allocate time and we allocate cash and BB really helps allocate time. But there were weeks where I would say, okay, I need, you know, these two or three hours from the day blocked off. Almost Charlie Munger sense, right? He used to sell himself the best hour of his day for himself.

And sometimes you just can't do it. Sometimes I have a board meeting for three hours and then I'm recruiting people and it's just, it's chaos. I find that late nights for me are really good. My kids, you know, sleep by let's say eight, nine o'clock.

My wife and I are up for another two hours talking, catching up, watching TV, binge-watching something, plotting and planning family stuff and travel and business stuff that we help each other on. Then I probably have another hour, hour and a half from 11.30 or 12 to one in the morning. That's my personal time to just read and crank and listen to audiobooks, all of which I do on 3X speed and

What time do you get up in the morning? Typically like six to seven. So I'm getting about five and a half to six and a half hours sleep, drink a lot of coffee. Are you one of those super humans who just doesn't need a ton of sleep? No, I mean I wouldn't say I'm ever chronically tired. I think after the birth of my first child, I realized how much you can get

Get away with. With little sleep. And I always marvel at people who are like, oh, I'm so tired and they don't have kids and they're waking up at like 9.30 or 10 on a Saturday. I haven't seen the north side of 7 a.m. in nine years. I'm the exact same. Even when my kids aren't around. And I was never a morning person. Yeah, yeah, me too. You're a voracious learner. Tell me some of the lessons that you've learned about parenting and how you've become a better parent.

The best advice I got actually was from another venture capitalist who said that the most important thing that you can do with your kids is the most important currency is attention. When I look at the behavior, most of the time, whether somebody is acting really well or misbehaving, they are seeking your attention.

And rewarding them with positive attention when they do something that you really are proud of, whether that's studying for a test and getting a great grade or performance or even just kind behavior, you know, sitting down with them. And, you know, I think about this, like if you allocate time during the day, you know, I've roughly got two hours in the morning with my kids and I walk them to school every day. And then I've got like another hour and a half to two hours at night before they go to sleep.

And so that's not that much time. But I feel lucky because I hear other people, you know, oftentimes they have to get to work before, you know, their kids are up and they get home after the kids are asleep. And it's really hard. A friend of mine who sees his kids on weekends only. Exactly. Right. And so in that sense, I feel really lucky. But in the time that I'm with them, we're increasingly really thinking about attention itself as reward. Now, you have three kids. I have three kids who are competing for our attention and they're competing with each other. Right.

And so, and I, and we can over time figure out the tactics that they use, you know, to sort of divide and conquer. And sometimes they want mom's attention. Sometimes they want dad's attention. Sometimes, you know, they're vying for both, but, but allocating attention, sitting down and being like, oh my God, like, you know, I'm so proud on the science thing you just did, you know, tell me more about that and really fully engaged and eye contact. It's just, that is the best positive feedback that I think can encourage really positive things.

With our first child, I think we probably micromanaged a bit and over time you become more lax. I mean we used to joke like by the time our third was born, it would be at the dinner table and he'd be in his high chair and like we forget about him, right? You just hear him make a noise and you're like, oh, okay. But the one thing that I know for sure is the mere existence proof when you walk into a Barnes & Noble and there are a thousand books on parenting.

means nobody knows what they're talking about. Because if there was an answer, you would have one book, right? And so it's the same thing with business and the same thing with relationships. And, you know, maybe people in religion have figured that out. I don't know, you know, because each one has seems to have one book, but with parenting, you know, it's, it's to each their own and every child is different and every circumstance is different and what they need is different. And so, um, how do you teach your kids to think critically? And I would imagine read widely. Yeah.

So the two of the three older read. My older loves to read – The oldest one is eight and a half. Eight and a half, yeah. And she likes to read graphic novels and so like sort of more mature comic book type books. And it's usually the characters. She is very into the I know that you know that I know that, very psychologically astute.

Um, the middle is very into science and engineering. How old's middle? Uh, six, six. And, and it, and from birth, I could see this, like I could look in my older's eyes and I know that she knows that I know, like there was, there was just a connection psychologically. She's very astute. In fact, I remember we were at Disneyland and she looked at my wife and there was like this princess thing. And she looked at my wife, she goes, you know, mom, I don't think she wants to be here.

And she was able to tell the disdain from this actress in a Cinderella princess who didn't want to be around these bratty kids, but she could read the face. And so that's sort of her superpower. It's interesting because I talk about our family.

as like the Incredibles where everybody's got their own little superpower. And if you try, if I try to get my older one to have the patience of my middle one with time on task, I'll fail. And if I try to get my middle one to be more psychologically astute, like my older one, it'll, it'll fail. But I realized like each one, you know, one might be really fast or one might be really stretchy or really strong as a family unit, you know, it works. Um, what's your superpower? Oh, I don't know. I, I think very high expectations and ambitions. Um, there

There's certain things I indoctrinate my kids with, certain sayings. So at a young age, I would always say it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. And that applies to everything. An umbrella when you're going outside. You know, an extra sweater if you're going to the movies. But always basically getting them to think about hedging. And these little recitations of these sayings over time –

At first, they're just words. They don't mean anything. And then there's a moment and the moment has salience emotionally because they are like happy or they forgot something. And then suddenly it's like that, aha, you know, I get it. That's why dad's been saying that. What are the other sayings that you- Oh, let's see. Inoculate them with? I mean, there's one. And again, this is, you know, probably touching on controversy, but-

at a very – so I grew up Jewish. I got bar mitzvahed and then basically collected my bar mitzvah money and ran. I became atheist. I rejected it all. My wife would consider herself spiritual and I want the kids to be really skeptical and rational and questioning everything. So we've negotiated about how we've talked about the tooth fairy and Santa and all these sort of childhood things. So as to quote unquote not strip them of their imagination, but make them query things. But at a very young age, I would walk out of the house and say,

Do you see an invisible man in the sky? And they'd say no. I'd be like, huh, interesting. Just sort of let it sit there, you know. But my preference has been that they embrace, you know, open skepticism and not take dogma because particularly for kids, it's just kids evolved to listen to authority figures and adults and just –

believe whatever they said. And I don't want them to be credulous in life. I want them to be skeptical and to encounter other kids who believe things and say, well, why do you believe that? And they say, well, my mom told me that, you know, and to just sort of question things. How do you talk to them about religion then? I say, you know, this is what dad believes. This is what my mother did with me, by the way. And she's probably more, well, she is more religious than me. But she was like, this is what I believe. And my parents believed when I was super young. And this is what your father believes. And this is what other people believe. And she sort of gave me the freedom to choose.

So she didn't really powerfully indoctrinate me. But I basically am always just indoctrinating with skepticism. So they'll, for example, older one, you know, Santa Claus is real. She's reading my face to see if I'm lying, if I'm going to say yes or no. And what I agreed with my wife was rather than say yes or no, I would basically just keep asking, what do you think? And eventually, and this was like one of my proudest moments when she was younger. I think she was six when she came up with this. She came up with the Santa trap.

If Santa is real, she concocted this sort of like mousetrap-like thing and she didn't actually design it, but she described how she was going to design it, which was it had a laser and it had a birdcage that was going to fall on him. And like the cookie – if he took the cookie, it would – and I'm like, well, what if he's invisible? And like it was just – that to me was success because she was using critical thinking to say, okay, if this guy is real –

then I would be able to design an experiment to test it at six years old. So I was really happy with that. Now, my wife decided to play a trick on me and she hires – we have a rooftop and she hires a guy to play Santa. And she gets him and he knocks on the roof and comes down. Anyway, but thankfully the girls were looking at him and be like, I don't think he's real. He fell off the roof. Oh, man. Yeah.

He could not do a billion houses. Exactly. Do you always do that with your kids? I don't want to dwell on parenting too much, but I find it really interesting and we get a lot of good feedback on the questions we ask about parenting. Like, what else do you do with your kids to encourage sort of thinking, critical thinking skills, not...

Not just being fed something and going, oh, that must be true. So a lot of it is things that they ask questions about. Kids, I think, are natural inquisitive scientists. And I think over time, education systems, conformity basically starts to stultify kids to stop asking questions. And we –

put them in science camp for the month of July up at Columbia. It's this amazing group called Hollingworth. And I would have an hour on the train from Tribeca up to the Upper West Side in Columbia. And we would pick a topic, or I would pick a topic sometimes. And we would just talk about it the entire way on the train. Sometimes I'd pull up some things on an iPhone and we'd reference it. But it could be, you know, action and reaction. So simple concept that's universal, action and reaction. So, you know, you push on them, they push back.

You push on people, they push back. So it could be action or reaction in the context of physics or in interpersonal relationships or in markets. And I start to explain these things. And I know that some of these things will not make sense to them.

But if I keep repeating it over time, then suddenly it clicks and they see something like, oh, you know, I get it. And again, it's such a great feeling when you see that they reason through something and then you feel a sense of pride of like, I think in part they got that because of this thing that we talked about a year or two ago. And you just kept repeating it in the same sort of themes. What are the other common themes that you –

A lot of them are sort of scientifically rooted. So action and reaction, long-term consequences. If you think about you want to sort of delay gratification.

This to me, by the way, is the perennial paradox, right? Seize the day and capture the moment and plan for the future. Those two things are irreconcilable, right? It's like I guess a life in balance finds the right portion between that, but getting them to delay gratification. We've done our own version of the marshmallow test with cupcakes. You can have one now or if you wait two hours, you can get two and watching how they reason through that

I did that with Fortnite now. Oh, boy. Look, this is interesting. I grew up playing copious amounts of video games and watching a ton of television. And some people that we're friendly with restrict screen time. And my view is when you restrict something, it sort of becomes more desired. And so we allow them screens.

Is it a limit? You know, it's not an explicit two hour. Now I used to do this actually when my daughter, my older daughter earned through lemonade sand sales, a laptop. She contributed half the money. That's quite the lemonade. So we just did this last week. I made 160 bucks and you know, it's pretty good. But we got her a laptop last year.

And I set parental limits on it on how often she could use it. And through good behavior, I would increase the limits. And now I trust her. And trust is a really important thing. So this is something- You trust her to be responsible. Yes. And she loves Roblox and she loves Fortnite. And we explain appropriate and inappropriate behavior and what the consequences are. And so far, so good. I mean, I leave myself open to the possibility that there's going to be some disaster in the future. But so far-

Okay, here's another thing we do. We detail. And this is something that I think I got from Charlie Munger thinking about human misjudgments, the dumb things that people do. So I will pull up every day and the best catalog of the dumb things that people do, New York Post. You can pull up the New York Post and you can find example after example of people that behaved badly. It could be a corporate executive doing something stupid. It could be – so there's one that I remember just a few weeks ago of a kid who was on Instagram.

that was standing on a roof or something like this and plummeted to his death. Now, a lot of parents would be like, oh my God, that's horrific. I'm never going to show my kids that. But me and my craziness sat down with them and was like- That's not crazy. Look at this idiot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Now, so you can learn from the mistakes of others. Don't make that mistake ever. Yeah. Like what are you doing? What was he doing that caused this to happen and think back through the chain? Yeah. He was trying to impress friends.

And so I talk about that. I talk about peer pressure. I talk about the importance. Here's another one, another quote that we indoctrinate them with is finding the balance between fitting in and standing out. And there are times where you want to fit in and there are times where it's really important to stand out.

From a very young age, if there was somebody who was disabled, if somebody was being made fun of, and the way that we would do this is our family does this. And this is almost like a tribal norm. Our family does not make fun of other people. If you see somebody in need or there's a group of people that are teasing somebody, our family stands up for that person. And I feel like that's really important. And I've seen the behavior and I've been so proud of the kids when they do that. It could be somebody with a disability. It could be somebody with a disease. I mean, that's another really important one.

I like how you bring it back to the family. Are there other things that you say your family does? We never give up. I mean, I literally – my two-and-a-half-year-old, he gets frustrated. I said, does our family give up? Do the Wolves give up? Never. And the kids are like, no. It's like watching Rudy. We watch a lot of family movies.

And we try to come up with the principles of this and we watch a lot – you watch Miracle and League of Their Own and Rudy. I mean there are so many great sports movies. I'm not a big sports guy watching but so many great Horatio Alger coming of age or personal responsibility, rise of the under-trodden, just like the hero's journey.

They love those. Do your kids listen to audiobooks at all? We listened to one recently and we switched off between dad reading and when we're in the car, I put it on. The Magic Misfits. Oh, what's that about? It's Neil Patrick Harris who I think is a great entertainer and a great magician. Wrote a book about a young kid who loses his parents, has a disreputable uncle who is basically a con man magician. I happen to love magic. I love magic.

I love the philosophy of magic. I love the honest liars that most magicians are. And the kids love magic too. So this was one that we all loved recently.

Have you tried the 39 Clues? I just downloaded it because of you. Yeah, my kids are addicted to this. We drove to New York and we started playing this book. I read your note. It said you came to New York last weekend and you just did volume one. Yeah, but the kids were running into the bathroom at the rest stops, running out going, okay, put it back on. Oh my gosh. They were just so into this story. I kid you not. You sent it out, I think, yesterday or the day before and I downloaded it immediately on your recommendation, so thank you.

I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about decision making. Do you guys have, what is the process that looks for making decisions? And what are the feedback mechanisms that you set up to know that you're, oh, this isn't going as planned and we either need to like cut bait or intervene or...

So a few different things. Decisions in terms of will something make it into the portfolio. Somebody is recruiting an entrepreneur in because it fits with a thesis or they think that they're a backable entrepreneur or maybe another firm has reciprocated and shared deal flow with us. Whatever the circumstances of somebody coming in, yeah.

The way that we do this is the entrepreneur knows that they've got a certain amount of time with the partnership. We're going to a priori come up with questions. So what we do is if somebody is presenting on a Monday to the partnership when everybody is assembled between New York and Menlo Park, on Thursday or Friday, the champion partner is sending out, here's my thesis. This is what I'm thinking about. Here's the opportunity for us to invest.

The team is then populating a whole series of questions. Some of them might be generic questions. I'm always very psychotically focused on competitive advantage. What can they do or assert that they can do that nobody else can do?

Somebody else might be focused on a very specific aspect of the technology. Somebody might be focused on the landscape for the industry structure. Somebody might be focused on the business model. Somebody might be focused on their first four hires that they have to make. Whatever it is, the champion then takes that information and gives the entrepreneur the advantage of saying, these are the most important things based on what the team knows from what I've shared with them that you're going to be asked. So they have an opportunity to prepare, which would be very disappointing if somebody came in and didn't address all those questions.

As a result of that, people come in more prepared. They know the kinds of things that we're going to ask. At the end of the hour, and it's typically an hour, sometimes it's a little bit longer or shorter, but typically an hour, we immediately detail our thoughts. And we do it through a technological mechanism. We have an online internal proprietary luck system. People are basically saying, do we invest? Do you want to lead? Does it need more work? Do we participate if somebody else is leading or do we pass?

And if you do want to lead, what's your recommended investment amount and what are the valuation parameters? And oftentimes then you have a comment section that is just filled, right? Somebody's like, I loved she or he. They were incredible, but I'm really skeptical about this or this, or we know these people in our network. We need to diligence next. And so when the team has total consensus, we typically make an investment and we've typically been very wrong. Right.

Interesting. When everybody agrees. When the confidence is high. We are missing something. If we pride ourselves as being contrarians and we think that we're thinking differently from everybody outside the walls of the firms, but then internally we all 100% agree something's wrong. We're missing something.

And so only in hindsight, after a few examples of that where we had 100% consensus, we all thought that we should lead, the conviction correlated with our sizing of the investment, which was higher, the speed with which we moved because we felt so confident was high, and we were typically wrong. We missed something. And in each case that we did this, we missed something, but now we try to identify, okay,

Sometimes it's me by default, but who's going to be the red corner? Who's going to be the person that's going to be the devil's advocate to identify what are the reasons why we shouldn't do the deal? A priori, what could go wrong? Does that person rotate or is it the same person? It depends. Sometimes it just occurs naturally. Somebody's got a bias against a market.

We had a bunch of people coming in with the scooters, the electric scooters, and I had some very skeptical, cynical views. We wanted to learn about the market, but I just did not feel strongly that this was something that was a "lux deal" that we should be investing in this market.

And so I was the natural, you know, sort of antagonist. But it depends. There's nobody that's appointed it with 10 people really contributing and voting at any given point, you know, you got at least a 10% chance that somebody is going to be the devil's advocate. But more often than not, just my disposition, it often is me. So then a decision is made. Now it's best when there's, you

you know, support and enthusiastic support, but a few dissenters. At the end of the day, the buck stops with Peter and I, we make the final decision. Everybody's got a voice and a vote. Pete and I are never going to invest if everybody doesn't want to do it. And we're going to be a little bit hesitant if everybody wants to do it until we find the skepticism. But here's where it gets interesting. If you have one partner that is dogmatically table pounding, and everybody else has said, I don't see it. What we decided to do for the tribe is everybody gets one of those.

So if I'm the one that sees it- One per year, one per career. One per fund. Okay, one per fund. One per fund. Now the funds typically are invested over a year and a half or two years, but one per fund, why? If we made an error of commission, fine. Okay, everybody gets one. You made a mistake. Okay, everybody else gets to tell that person, look, told you so. You saw something that we didn't and you were wrong. Okay, but if there's an error of omission,

Where this person is like, I'm telling you guys, we should have done this. That regret will exist forever. Well, it's not only regret. It's like you feel like you didn't believe in me. Totally. So everybody still knows, by the way, we don't believe. We don't see what you see. But we'll give you this one. We trust you on this. And typically, it's not sized as high as we would with another.

but the sum total of the dollars, if that were to occur, and the reason we do one, by the way, is in part because of me, because I can be persuasive and a table pounder. And if I did that all the time, we would end up with a portfolio where I was being dogmatic and assistant. And so we've put in a structural constraint where everybody gets to have input, but if you feel really strongly

you get one of those. And so we've wanted to restrict somebody being able to say, you know what, fine, I'm going to do it personally because that's total unaligned. And everything has to be sort of like, you know, snapping the bracelet on the wrist, like what would be best for our LPs?

And if somebody is making a personal investment because the partnership rejected it, that's a bad thing because now they're personally rooting for the company to succeed. They want to prove people wrong. And so we don't know that we have the perfect mechanisms, but we think that that helps to create long-term camaraderie in the team and it gives people the ability to do just one of those things where they descend from the consensus. What are the other structural –

things that you put in place to either keep people engaged and encourage that or make better decisions? I think the best thing that we've done for better decision is, you know, people talk about decision journals and these kinds of things. The process of recording people's judgments and perceptions and observations at each deal is really important because what we observed before we started doing this in a very formal way was that people had very selective memory. They would say,

Oh, yeah. No, I always thought that they were going to be wildly successful. And then somebody would be banging their head and be like, no, you didn't. You thought that they were total idiots. So being able to go back and refine our judgment has made everybody a little bit more nuanced and a little bit less absolute. Oftentimes, I will say, even with skepticism, I'll be like, if I really don't see it, people joke. I'll be like, well, maybe. It could be. But it has reduced, I think, the extreme certitude.

And I think that helps to make us a little bit more nuanced. And from that, you get a diversity of viewpoints and the diversity of viewpoints leads us to the best questions. We just had somebody in on Monday, immediately after the ranking process where we go through and analyze, it doesn't start with, why should we do this? It starts with, okay, if we are going to do this, let's look through the dissenting comments. What are the things that are diligenceable and we can find out? So there's actual information that you could get, discern,

Fact check, find out. It could be market size. It could be- You're trying to figure out what's knowable. What's knowable. And let's go and find that out. And if it does, let's go back to the group and say, does it reduce people's uncertainty or give you heightened confidence that it's not what you thought it was? Because sometimes somebody just might be ignorant on the team that doesn't know something that somebody else does. But other times, it might not be knowable. We don't know if the dogs are going to eat the dog food. They make this product. We don't know. There's market risk. And then we have to look, okay, well, how do we underwrite that market risk?

What is the amount of capital that we're willing to put in until we can turn over that cart? And what's the compensation that we would want to get? How much money do we need to figure out to make that knowable? The simple question, really, if you reduce our business to a simple question, how much money accomplishes what in what period of time? Now, the great virtue in venture capital is you get to fund to milestones. So in a perfect world, we're able to put a little bit of money in.

We can de-risk a set of things. You're trading off that risk proposition. And then we can put in more money later on. And now you're going to put it in at a higher price because you've de-risked something.

But I think that's the best way to proceed sort of round by round. I want to go back to what you record around people, not only to calibrate them and give them feedback, but record about the decisions so that you're making, you're getting better. And we're in a competitive world, right? Like getting better at decisions might not make you better on a relative basis because the world is always changing. You might need to do that. Those might be the table stakes just to stay where you are. How are you,

actually pushing beyond that and getting somewhere. So we're constantly ranking people, whether it's the team, which to me is the most important thing. Because over time, you have more and more examples where you're able to say, that person sort of reminds me of this person. And you start to see your earlier questions about pattern recognition, what you see in certain people that give you this sort of nuanced instinct that they're going to be able to raise money and recruit and sell a story and actually execute and operate. So people is the biggest thing.

technology, you're sort of assessing what's the uniqueness and is there IP, are there patents, the market, not just like the competitiveness of the market, but are the dogs going to eat the dog food? And so you're recording at least on those three metrics, people's judgments about the market, about technology, about the people. And then you're coming back and you're looking and saying, in part because of availability bias, you might look at a company and say, well,

How could we say this about company XYZ when we just did company ABC and don't those things hold? And so you're always looking at reference cases and somebody will say, well, those are actually apples to oranges and we really shouldn't look at that, right? What we should be looking at are the public comps and there are precedents in this case. And like I said earlier, I think the best performing companies often have no comps because they're doing something that nobody has done before and there's sort of the singularity of it.

But it's a really iterative process. And then by the way, to your point about the markets, you could have your best internal process and you can underwrite and say, you know what? We've decided that we think the right amount of money is $5 million and we need to own 20% and we're going to value the company at a $25 million post-money valuation. And we think that these are the milestones that they want to do. But then somebody else comes in and says, we'll give you $10 million at a $50 million valuation.

Well, now you have to decide, okay, do you just let it go and be price disciplined or do you participate or do you try to compete because you think, okay, maybe even if they're pricing it too high, we can be in the deal and then we can figure out the next round's financing. I mean, it gets very complicated when you have what I would consider irrational actors that are changing the market. Today, in the market environment we're in, there are more irrational actors than ever before just because there's more money than ever before.

And so you have this phenomenon right now, I call it the minnows and the megas in venture capital. You have tons of individuals that are competing to write early stage checks, and it's creating a lot of noise. Now for us, those are our peers, our friends. We're trying to be helpful to them in some cases. They are a source of deal flow for us. And so we like to feed them and

and be helpful. At the other end, you have the megas, which SoftBank is the great example of this. But there are other firms that are raising multiple billions of dollars and doing very late stage rounds. And there, I think the best way is that you want to have product. You want to have companies that you can bring to those guys to finance. But thinking about how those guys are changing this ever undulating fitness landscape where somebody can write a hundred million dollar check and somebody else, you

It's always evolving. How do you stay true to what you want to do in that situation and feel – how do you make it okay to feel left out of this game? It is about being long-term greedy and it's this idea of process versus outcome. And so I'll give you a great example. We had a process with an autonomous vehicle company called Cruise.

We gave them, I think it was 10 or 12 million. They got bought by GM, didn't they? They did. And they got bought by GM in part, and they will give credit to my partner Shaheen who made the introduction to GM during our diligence. During our diligence, we decided we wanted to invest. It didn't have a product on the market. There wasn't revenue. It was risky. There were some competing efforts. And we underwrote this, I think a $10 million valuation at a 40 or 50 million pre. And we wanted to own, call it 15% of the company. And what ended up happening was somebody else

was able to say, no, we can get a better price. And they were right. And they ended up getting, I think, a $10 or $20 million investment and an $80 million valuation. So about double what we were offering. And the rational thing for them to do at that point was to take it. Now, we had a choice. Try to match the offer, try to compete with it, try to fit into it, or just stay price disciplined. And the typical mantra we have internally is I would rather lose half my LPs than half my LPs money. And so we felt the right thing to do was that that was too high of a price to pay. Now,

That was our process, the outcome. Nine months later or 11 months later, GM buys them for a billion dollars nominally. A little bit less actually, but nominally a billion dollars. That would have been 11x in under a year. And so we look at that and say, was that an error of omission or an error of commission?

Now, nine times out of 10, we would make that same decision. We felt that it was too high of a price to pay given what we had at the time. And it's not clear whether we made a mistake by not investing at that price in hindsight, or if GM made a mistake by paying too high of a price. And so you never know and you can't run the counterfactual because you only get one shot at these things.

And so most of the time we try to stay price disciplined. We know that there's always going to be some other great entrepreneur, some other great venture that's going to come along. In that process, the most important thing is that we treat those people well so that they don't resent us during the process, that they would come back to us. In this particular case, I think the founder and the CEO who made a lot of money is grateful to my partner Shaheen for making the introduction to GM. And we've stayed close to them. We've applauded them from afar. And we just didn't make money for our investors in that case.

It sounds like you get a lot of information that would lead to perhaps difficult conversations with people not only who run companies that you're invested in, but difficult conversations with people that you work with. How do you go about having those difficult conversations? Me personally, I'm very blunt and very direct. Were you always that way or did that –

I think it evolved over time. Part of my circumstance is you grow up in Coney Island, Brooklyn, people are pretty tough. They're not dancing around things. It's interesting because the cultures of companies matter.

I was at a board meeting and there was somebody there from Google and there was somebody there who spent a lot of time at Microsoft. Somebody was talking about how at Microsoft, you had sort of this blackball culture where the winner of an argument in a conference room was the person that sounded the smartest, sort of shunned the other people. You're an idiot. How do you believe that? And it's interesting because Bill Gates, in a sense, was notorious for that. Nathan Mervold, brilliant, but would sort of eviscerate people if they were wrong.

the Google person was saying, you know, Google is a very kind culture and that kind of behavior like wouldn't exist. And so people sort of dance around the issues. Now, I don't know if one is better than the other. I think it attracts a different kind of person. Internally, people know that if I have something to say, I'm saying it very bluntly. So that could be like, look, you had a situation with that particular company and you,

You should have stepped up and owned it entirely yourself, and you put me in a position where I had to get involved and I shouldn't have, and it created this complicated dynamic psychologically with the founder. And I'll just be blunt about that. And somebody else might come and say, you talked way too much in that meeting, and you didn't let the person get a word in edgewise or whatever. But we expect that it's not an ad hominem attack, that it's about making the firm better.

And so very, at least internally, very direct conversations. Externally, different partners have very different styles. I am very blunt. And so I will be very direct with the CEO. I also tell my CEO is probably the first thing that they hear from me when we make an investment or I joined the board. I want the bad news.

Good news. You're going to get applause from me. All right. I'm going to slap you on the back and say, great job. There's nothing I can help with, but I'm your partner. I'm invested with you. I want the bad news. I want to know what happened, what's going wrong, because that's where I can actually help. Other people are way more diplomatic than me on the team. And so we sort of have different horses for different courses, different partner personalities, but I really feel you waste so much time if you are not direct and honest.

Two final questions before we end this. The first is, what have you learned from working with Bill Gates and sitting in a room watching him work and being a part of what you guys are doing together? Amazingly, he's able to get to the 90-10 of an issue where he reads everything. He's got a yellow pen.

And he'll sit there and take notes. And then it'll be quiet for 30 minutes. And then he'll say the one thing that matters of the 20 things that we talked about.

You know, publicly, he sort of has this Mr. Rogers persona, you know, sweater. And I think in the boardroom, you know, he'll eviscerate somebody. Somebody will say something. He'll be like, why would you possibly do that? You know, that's the stupidest idea. And if he's right on the merits, he's not holding his tongue. And he's almost always right.

Um, it's interesting. I just had a negotiation with him on a company that we're, we're investing in three or four companies together. But in this one, um, we had a particularly tough, direct toe-to-toe negotiation. It's like, it's crazy, right? I mean, Bill Gates. Um, and I made an argument and he wrote me an email and I was upset reading it because it was so damn logical. It was so damn logical that I couldn't disagree with him.

I had a proposal. He rejected the proposal. He gave me a fair and reason why. I agreed with his logic, modified my proposal. We ended up agreeing and coming to terms on this particular financing for a company.

I just was amazed at how simple and clear the logic was. And how he identifies like what really matters. It was like the, you know, I'm talking about these other things and I'm sort of making an emotional case about why we should do X, Y, and Z. And he was like, I don't understand why you're resisting A because I think that it's B and C. And if we do that, it leads to D. And it was just, it was very clear and separating out, you know, I wanted,

a very specific thing. But aside from the fact that I wanted this, the logic of the situation objectively, he got to, and it was irrefutable.

And I think that that is the best way to win arguments is to find the normative thing and the objective truth of a situation. And you can't disagree with it unless you're either not seeing it clearly or you're lying to yourself. And he was really good at getting to the objective truth of the situation and I couldn't refute it. A developed skill or something you think he's had all his life? I think that's probably partially genetic.

Because that's what people say about Munger too, right? Like he just gets to the heart of the issue. Buffett said he had the best 30-second mind in the world. I think it's partially genetic for many, but I think if you turn, again, your turd of attention and say, I want to think like that,

I find that whereas I normally might write a screed of emotional, laden things to try to influence somebody, if I actually want to try the Bill method, you sort of put that thing on your wrist and you're like, okay, what would Bill do? Then you will stop and revise the logic of your argument and make it irrefutable because you were talking about some sort of objective truth.

I love that mechanism. People think of mental models as concepts just from the physical world that you're maybe applying to a different domain. But one of the best ways that you can have a mental model is like sit there and go like, what would Josh do? What would Bill Gates do? I invoke people all the time. And it literally is like the – what do they call it when you had all the Roman headstones on the Colosseum or the – and so yes, I've met Munger.

I've never met Buffett. Bill Conway for me is like one of these – the pantheon. Like the pantheon of these people. But you get to observe them in their decision-making. You can say like what would this person do in this situation? And by the way, you can see like the bad actors too, right? An invert. And so I find that that – having like this hall of heroes, of people that you think make good decisions –

it's almost like you get to have these little mental quiet conversations with them and say, like, what would they do in this situation? And that's your best guess, right? Sometimes you have the benefit and the fortune of being able to actually ask them, hey, what would you do in this situation? But I do think that having that sort of hall of heroes, that pantheon is really valuable. And that comes with just reading, right? You get all these dead people, living people whose ideas and decision makings you can study and you –

are like an amazing chronicler and profiler and compendium of all this kind of decision-making. So I'm grateful that I get to read you. That's very generous of you. Thanks. Last question has nothing to do with anything of interest to probably anybody but you and me, but I know we share a love of old-school rap. Yes. One song.

Oh, man. Favorite song. One. It depends. No depends. You got to go out there. You got to put it out there. I mean, my favorite song, which goes back to 1991 or 92, is called Shit Is Real by Black Moon.

That to me is like old school. It's amazing because somebody was on Twitter the other day and they were like, first things first. And I think they were referencing a Nicki Minaj song. Yeah. And I was like, first thing first, you hear Biggie. Yeah. Or you hear ODB from Wu-Tang. Yeah, yeah. And they never heard those verses. No, no. People need to go back. I've introduced a couple of friends to it and they're like, I never listened to this when I was young, but I get it. This is kind of cool now. Yeah.

A lot of people don't know this, but old school rap takes me out of a bad mood. I have no idea why. You know, people's favorite music is, I think, emotionally tied to formative emotional periods in your life. So for me, let's see, 1970, I was 14 years old in 92. I mean, that's, you know, you have all kinds of firsts. You know, your hormones are going and you're hanging out with girls really for the first time and you got your crew of guys and like,

Yeah.

But like, yeah, early 90s rap, not, you know, not even like Mase and Puffy, but like, you know, Ice Cube Predator and Grand Puba and Brand Newbie and End of Tribe. Amazing. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Thank you so much, Josh. This has been a great conversation. Awesome to be with you, Shane. Hey, guys, this is Shane again. Just a few more things before we wrap up.

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