What Kamala Harris Needs to Win the Presidency, from a Veteran of Hillary Clinton’s Campaign
32:22 Share

Listener supported. WNYC Studios. Hey, Lulu here. Whether we are romping through science, music, politics, technology, or feelings, we seek to leave you seeing the world anew. Radiolab adventures right on the edge of what we think we know, wherever you get podcasts. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

Well, that happened. As soon as Joe Biden announced his departure from the race, we asked Jennifer Palmieri to come on the program to talk about what this all means for the person who's almost certainly the new standard bearer for the Democrats, Kamala Harris. Jen Palmieri is the kind of politico in D.C. who's been around for half of forever. She knows where the bones are buried. When we talk about the Democratic Party establishment,

She's right up there, a veteran of the Bill Clinton administration and Barack Obama's White House, and she was the director of communications for Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign. Paul Mary now co-hosts the podcast How to Win 2024. So she can tell us a thing or two about what exactly is going on in this bizarre and historic race for the White House.

Hey, Jen, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I don't know. Anything going on? Oh, my God. Oh, my God, Dave. I spoke with Jennifer Palmieri last week. First things first, you know, everybody in this drama, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Chuck Schumer, the Clintons. Oh, my God. Yeah, exactly. What happened? What happened over last weekend that turned the tide here?

So I think that there is a sense that is not true that Obama played a big role in trying to get President Biden to drop out. But it does, you know, it plays into an interesting Shakespearean storyline that, you know, between the two of them and the fact that, you know, it is true that President Obama did not think that President Biden should run in 16. He endorsed Hillary. He, you know, had said,

told President Biden that he didn't think it was a good idea. And that is the root of President Biden not listening to other people's advice because, you know, all of us were wrong. And I have to say, I'm one of the people who was wrong. I thought in 20, even President Biden shouldn't run because I didn't think that, you know, we normally don't go back, right? We go forward.

And the party decided he was the guy they wanted. And, you know, when he won and he was remarkable president. So, you know, part of the problem was that the normal people who would have credibility with President Biden didn't because all of them were part of the group that never thought he should run in 16 and didn't think he should run in 20. So that dynamic is there. And that's why I think the sort of sense that President Obama played a big role here is overblown and it's easy to like.

kind of think that was a thing because of that history. But Nancy Pelosi, that appearance on, I think it was Meet the Press, where she ever... No, Morning Joe. Forgive me. Morning Joe. I will never forget this moment. I will never forget this moment of television. Where she ever so slightly, when Biden was already saying, I've made my decision, I'm going forward, she said, almost in a maternal way, but in a way that you know what she wants to happen, well...

The president will decide, which was a way of saying you haven't decided correctly yet. It was extraordinary.

It was, you know, because I had heard, you know, and just like the degree to which all of us chat with each other and we all know each other. And, you know, I mean, I'm not talking directly to like Nancy Pelosi and Hakeem Jefferson, Lita Schumer, but just like everybody around them. And it's like Nancy's got to be the one. You can't send anybody else to tell Biden what needs to happen when that time comes than Nancy Pelosi. She's the one that had the cred with the president. Because she did it.

She passed the torch, right? First of all, she's tough. And honestly, David and I heard this a lot. I heard this. She's tougher than all of them. She's tougher than all of them. And men won't say hard things. They won't. Yeah.

So it was like when the time comes, Nancy, someone to send. And then I saw that she was going on Morning Joe to talk about, quote, democracy. And I was like, oh, yeah, right. Here we go. Right. And then she gets the question about Biden staying in. And she's like, well, you know, he needs to decide. And Jonathan Lemire from Morning Joe is like, well, he has decided. She's like, well, I know. And that's why, you know, that's why it's so important that he makes a decision.

The clock's running and he really needs to decide. And then Thursday, NATO, NATO summit, NATO press conference, Hakeem Jafri's

schedules a meeting with the president to happen immediately following the NATO press conference. And I think this is important because Jeffries is thinking if the press conference goes well-ish, then this could get another head of steam and the president can think he can stay in. And so I am going to go see him right away. I thought that was a very smart, deft thing to do. That happens Thursday. Friday, Jeffries puts out a statement that is very equivocal. It says, I met with him. I told him where our caucus is. Then that's it.

Obviously, if the caucus had the president's support, he would have put it in that letter. He did not. And then I heard the next thing that's going to happen is Schumer is going to make a move. He's going to go see Biden on Saturday. So what happens on Saturday? The assassination attempt. So then everything shuffled again. And I was thinking, well, this is done. Biden is going to be the nominee on Sunday. I'm like, that's it. He's going to be the nominee. And then, you know, by Monday,

He did the Lester Holt interview, which, you know, was not great. He did a couple of interviews and they were not great. And you could feel it getting ahead of steam again. And then Wednesday was the day where everything sort of crumbled. You know, that was when he got COVID. And Schumer let it be known that.

that he did, in fact, go to Rehoboth on that Saturday. So it was like the political version of D-Day, right? Pelosi hits the beach first on Wednesday. Thursday, it's Jeffries. Saturday, it's Schumer. And then you have the unfortunate and very tragic, you know, hiatus from the assassination attempt and the man that was killed in Pennsylvania. And then Wednesday was just when you were like, this is not sustainable. Right.

And then last Saturday, so last Saturday he's in Rehoboth Beach and he summons Mike Donlan and somebody else. And, you know, there's two other players that I think were really important here that we don't talk about. Bill and Hillary Clinton.

Because, you know, they understand people, right? And they didn't necessarily have Biden's back and saying he needs to stay in. But, you know, as I understand, they were calling him and, you know, talking him and just being friends and also telling donors continue to give him money because, you know, this is crazy. He's likely to stay in and he needs to have the resources and just do it. And I really think that

That particularly because, you know, the Clintons have been allies, but then there's times where they were not right when Hillary ran and he wanted to run and then she lost. And and so I think that.

For some people, you know, it's easier to talk somebody out of a corner when somebody's got your back. Right. And for the Clintons to play that role, everybody had a different role to play here. And then I think that it was, you know, as was sort of reported in real time, we just didn't see any evidence of it kind of just taking hold with the president that this was happening.

you know, getting more serious and told Reschetti and Donilon to come out to see him. And then they showed him the bad polling, the polling that showed even his polling, his own internal polling, taking big, big, big, big dives in the battlegrounds. Frankly, y'all, I mean, the vice president is off to a great start, but such dives that it's a very sobering look at, you know, her coming back from what hole a Democratic candidate is currently in. So,

We assumed at a certain point that Joe Biden was headed toward really catastrophic loss in November. What gives you the sense that Kamala Harris, whose poll numbers have never been all that great, will do better? I understand that there's a burst of energy, a sense of relief among many people in the party. But when it comes down to it, what gives you any optimism that the results in the ends of ends will be different in November than it might have been with Joe Biden?

I guess three factors. One is that there's a huge anti-Trump coalition in the country. Two, I was very worried about the cynicism of both parties or have big problems and they're not dealing with them. And like, it doesn't matter. And it's all rigged. And the Democrats had a big problem. We dealt with it. And I think there's a huge relief there.

To see a younger person out there. So I think that's sort of like the second factor. And then the third thing is that the vice president, she's actually a very talented politician. She would not have accomplished what she's done in terms of like, you know, being a senator from California, vice president, if that's not true. And her coverage has been horrific for the last three and a half years. Why? You know, it's just. Why is it? What's the coverage reacting to?

So I think that, you know, and I wrote because I worked for Hillary. So I wrote a book, My Experiences, working for her because it's not like reporters are like, oh, we're sexist and we don't like women and therefore we're going to write bad things about Hillary. I think it is that when you do not have a model in your mind for what a woman president looks like or in Harris's case, a black female vice president looks like, things don't make sense. So like what I would find with Hillary, it's like,

Well, how it would manifest itself is people would say, well, there's just something about her I don't like. And you're like, well, what is it? You know, we would do focus groups. There's something about her I don't trust. Well, she's always so sketchy. Well, what do you mean? Well, she's sketchy, whitewater. You know, it's like, well, whitewater ended up being nothing. Well, I don't know. She's always – and it's like – it's not like people are sexist or racist in an alert way, but just –

It's sort of confounding, vexing. It doesn't make sense. And it's like, there's something about her I don't like. And so I think the other problem for her is vice presidents do not get consistent attention. They get very sporadic attention. So you would just see snippets of her coverage and it's like, why isn't she doing better? That's kind of like constant refrain. That's a really hard thing to beat back, you know, and still she maintained like some level of a favorability rating. And I think now, like,

We are going to actually see her. If I worked for them, I'd be like, from now to the convention, you got four weeks. Who's a good idea for a vice president? I like Shapiro. He's a very good campaigner. Governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. It's a good state to want to win. It's a great state to want to win. You know, Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona, he does a really good job at winning Arizona.

For him, for Mark Kelly. Right. Mark Kelly's very specific thing. He's popular there. I don't know if that really translates. I do have a sense that, you know, if you're going to win Arizona or, you know, Governor Roy Cooper, North Carolina, he's another good option that she has. Those states might be winnable. But I do feel like Shapiro wins.

could actually deliver Pennsylvania for you because he is that popular. And you aren't winning without it, right? Yeah. And Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan are real hard this time. They're real hard. But I will say, having been through this process a few times with candidates, personality matters a lot. Chemistry matters a lot. And, you know, I still think the best ticket ever was Clinton-Core.

You know, not like trying to match or like, you know, not trying to round out the typical, but just like doubling down or like doubling down on our strengths. We seem like in some ways the same guy. Does Robert F. Kennedy Jr. matter in this race at this point? We hear all kinds of things that he might exchange an endorsement of Trump for a cabinet position. I've heard that even more unlikely when Biden was still trying to decide what to do.

That if he had left a gaping hole in the Democratic Party, that Robert F. Kennedy would love to have inherited the party of his father. That obviously was a fantasy too far. But is he a factor in the race anymore? Yeah. I mean, I always worry about him because it's going to be a close race. And so anything at the margins matters. He has proven to be less of a threat than people think.

were concerned about early on. So you still have to pay attention to him. You still have to define him, make sure that people know he's got really crazy, dangerous views so that if he is taking them from anybody, he's taking from Trump and not from Harris. But, you know, also, I think Jill, I think other people, you know, other people are still on ballots in some places, you know, so it's any kind of third party thing, whether it's, um,

You know, that that is a that's a concern. Green Party, whatever it is, it's a big concern. Yeah. I mean, that's why Hillary lost. You know, could be everything. It could be ballgame. I'm talking with Jennifer Palmieri. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, and we'll continue our conversation in just a moment.

by the magazines and celebrated artists.

Visit store.newyorker.com and enjoy 15% off with the code NEWYORKERPOD at checkout. That's store.newyorker.com. Welcome back to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. At this point, there's no safe prediction to make about this election. That seems really clear. But we're talking today about Kamala Harris, who we presume will be the Democratic nominee.

My guest is Jennifer Palmieri. She's a longtime veteran of democratic politics. She worked in the Obama White House, Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign, and much more. She also wrote a bestselling book called Dear Madam President, addressed to some future leader of our country.

Now, you write that it was important for Clinton, Hillary Clinton, to show strength as the nominee. But you also recommend women running for office. And this is your quote, nod less and cry more. Nod less and cry more. What do you mean by that?

I mean, the backup title for my book was Crying at Work because all women do it and like it should not be a tad move. It is. I just on the Clinton campaign, we got a lot of bad news, like a lot of bad news, right? Like, oh, Jim Comey just did a press conference where he said Hillary Clinton was reckless with classified information. You're like, OK, I can handle this. Like, what else you got? And then it's like Jim Comey's reopened the email investigation. We just nod and we would say like, OK, I can handle this. I can handle this. And you're just absorbing too much information.

and you're not, for yourself, you're not letting yourself, like, say, no, this isn't manageable. I mean, I do think in the Clinton campaign, we did kind of just absorb too much and think that we could just keep going. What should you have done instead? You know, it was the before times, right? So it was like, you know, it was, it was the before times. It's really different. I mean, I did, Hillary got pneumonia from me. I got pneumonia. I ended up in the hospital and like,

I was like, I can't believe that we think that we can manage all of this because we knew the Russians were hacking us and hurting us and no one would believe us. And, you know, plus Trump and all of that. But it used to be taboo for women to show emotion on the campaign trail. And as early as 2008, Hillary, you know, welled up a little bit in a New Hampshire diner and and people liked it.

I think they see that as real. And there's like a thing in like women politics right now called 360 self. Like women are now permitted to show all of themselves. That's why Kamala Harris can wear her chucks and her like rainbow coats and like it's OK. It's not considered unserious. It is striking that we refer to Hillary. We refer to Kamala. That doesn't happen for the most part with male candidates. Right.

I think there's a couple of things happening here. I can tell you Hillary Clinton does not like it. It is, I think part of it is like, Harris is not very distinctive and Kamala is. There were two Clintons. Also, Hillary is a very distinctive name. But it's also true, I mean, in terms of, you know, what researchers will tell you about this is that it is diminishing of a woman to call her Hillary.

By her first name. And I thought, well, we only do it with Hillary and Kamala because they have unusual names. But it's not true. We call her Nancy. You know, everybody knows who Nancy is. It's Pelosi. Right. And, you know, I thought about even other senators. I know people refer to Amy, Amy Klobuchar, not not necessarily Klobuchar's. And it is there's something that's not there's something I you know, I know that women researchers tell me it's bad and we should not do it.

I do think there's something that there's something about female leadership that people feel is welcoming. And I think referring to women by their first name is part of is kind of part of that. So you don't want to lose all of it. But there is a lot of research and there's a history here that says and it's also true for black men that it is diminishing of them and something that goes back a long way.

I spoke with Julian Castro on the program a couple of weeks ago, and he speculated that the Trump campaign, and I think he's probably not alone in this, would weaponize identity politics against Harris. And we've seen it already. She's already being called the DEI candidate. But it seems that Trump is more concerned about her as an opponent than he was about Biden. So how is this going to work? Yeah.

I think that he, I was surprised on, so she got announced on Sunday and I was really surprised that that day that Trump himself on his, you know, Truth Social post and then his surrogates, like people like Stephen Miller were just sputtering. They had nothing to say. They couldn't figure it out. And I was like,

How are you not prepared for this? It's not I don't think it is. You know, you know, I had heard that they were going to do she's the DEI candidate and the border. Also, I don't know that's going to be effective, but I don't think it's that complicated. So I think that's what they will tap into is that there's a you know, there's like a resentment on their side of.

about, you know, that DEI measures have sort of, you know, they're part of the concern about, you know, in parts of America about how America's changing and like, you know, say that and talk about the border. And the thing that's good about this only being 100 days, if Kamala Harris had to live with that critique for a year,

It could wear you down. But I think like I just know in my own family, you know, people are just like, who do I vote for? I don't care. I don't care. Just tell me who to vote for. And I'm going to be for that person. How do I send my like my sisters who don't normally get my like, how do I send money to Kamala Harris? It's still Joe Biden dot com. Like, what do I do? So I think that she is I would say, like, you can't get tripped up and trying to defuse the bombs that are that Trump is going to come your way.

You have to just push. You have to do, I think, the first month you define yourself and then you just push on him and you just do your offense on him. And women constantly have to credential themselves. So, like, you'll see Brian Fallon, who is Kamala Harris's extraordinarily capable communications director and was Hillary Clinton's press secretary. So we've been through the battles together when Trump attacks Hillary.

the vice president, Brian puts out a statement that says, you know, Kamala Harris was a prosecutor and then, you know, an attorney general. So she's used to getting these kinds of attacks. She's been getting these kinds of attacks all her life.

They don't stop her. They might offend other women. They might offend black voters, but they're not going to stop her. And so, like, what is he doing in that sense? He's credentialing her. He's reminding people of what she's done. You constantly need to remind people of what she has done in her career and what she's done as vice president.

because people assume that women haven't accomplished anything. And again, it's just like, it's just something, it's not because we're all sexist, we want to keep women down. It's just like, we're still catching up with what our sort of expectations of women are. So I think, you know, you do need to credential her. So you want to push back on the DEI thing. You know, she's had this extraordinary career in politics. She's one of America's best politicians, given like what she's accomplished, but

But then you can't worry about what he's coming up. You just got to go when that's the benefit. But hang on. She ran for president and she wouldn't be the first person to run for president and lose and then come back and win it. But she ran for president. Yeah, like Joe Biden. Exactly. More than once. But she ran for president and that candidacy was a washout. It just went nowhere. What was she doing wrong at that moment?

And what does she have to do better? So I think that that's that was my mind when I talked about the short and how this is only 100 days, right? That campaign, she started that campaign in January of 2019, and she dropped down in December of 2019. So she ran that race almost a year, and it was still like a couple of months before anybody voted, right? Right.

And it was her first time out. And that is a big I think it's particularly hard because like when I worked for Hillary Clinton, I came into that campaign as the White House communications director. And I thought I knew what I was doing. And then all of a sudden it was like I had driven a bus for 25 years. And all of a sudden when I put on the brake, the accelerator went like you're just like and I think her team, most of her team had not really they had not worked for a woman presidential campaign like it's.

It's a different deal. The other thing I noticed for all of the women, all six of them, it's really hard for women to break through. In the 2020 primary you're talking about. Right. It was Biden, Beto, Buttigieg, Bernie. And it's easy. This is like a provable thing. And I'm not like super like crazy sexist person, but like...

We see potential in men that we don't see in women, and it takes a long time for women to break through. Well, drill down on that. Tell me more about that. There's a thing in hiring, not just in politics, but also in hiring, that we sort of have this archetype of, you know, Beto O'Rourke, Pete Buttigieg, we've seen them before. They remind us of Bobby Kennedy. They remind us of John F. Kennedy. You know, like the earnest young guy that has a lot of potential.

And with women, and this is even true for like entry-level hiring, it's that they need to prove themselves more. We are less likely to take a flyer on them because we see potential. We want to see results in a record. And that's not very exciting to listen to. And it takes a while to break through. And I think that's why, you know, in the end of that campaign, you had just Amy Klobuchar and Elizabeth Warren standing. But

You have to go through so many machinations to explain away your ambition because people are uneasy about that. Elizabeth Warren is the best at it. She was a genius about how she managed that. How so? She said her lifelong dream...

was she said, I've lived my lifelong dream. I've been a public school teacher. And then she did that little like high five and kick that she would do on stage. And the first time I heard it, I gasped because I was like, she's a genius. Because what did she do right there? She said, don't worry if you think my lifelong ambition is to be

President of the United States, it's not. It was to be a teacher. We're very comfortable with women as teachers. Also, it's in the past because I've already done it. Jen, the gloves are coming off and it happened within hours. For example, the evangelical leader Lance Walno invoked a comparison between

to the biblical notion of a Jezebel when discussing Kamala Harris. A Jezebel. I hadn't heard that one in a very long time. Yeah. Wow. So Michelle Obama, it seems like ages ago, said when faced with criticism, when they go low, we go high. Is that era over? Does Kamala Harris have to get down and dirty and

Punch hard. Yeah, I think our I don't think that I think for Democrats, when they go low, we go high will never be over because we are fundamentally different from Republicans and our voters are motivated by different things. So I never subscribe. I hate it when people are like, oh, you Democrats aren't tough enough. It's like we're also why the Republic is still standing. So be grateful for that.

So I think it's more like not like when they go low, we go high, but we don't go as low as they do. And I do think that, you know, people are attuned. Women are attuned. Women are so frustrated. They're so mad about abortion. They hear Jezebel. They know what that means. And I do think that this this is probably why.

On Sunday, when the Trump campaign realized this is who they're running against, they were sort of sputtering that they didn't know what to say because they know if they go after the DEI stuff too hard or start calling her Jezebel, that's going to alienate a lot of Black voters. That's going to alienate a lot of women. So that's the tougher thing for them. And, you know, she just needs to make the effective case about Trump. She doesn't need to diffuse everything that comes her way from them anymore.

And she doesn't need to be offended by what they say about her. Again, like what you say is, I can take it, but I don't want my little girls hearing that. I don't want my grandnieces hearing that, you know? And that registers with people. It seems even before she entered the race that Democrats were doing considerably better with women and...

vice versa, the Republicans were doing better with men. My guess is Hulk Hogan's equivalent is not going to be introducing Kamala Harris at the Democratic National Convention. When did this happen that the Democratic Party became the female party somehow and the reverse for the Republicans? I think at a meta level that this is about this whole fight.

The whole thing is about women in power not being the exception, but the norm. I really I think I think fundamentally that is what this whole fight is about. It's about people who have traditionally been out of power, women, people of color, not just not just having a one off here and there. But it is becoming the norm to expect that leaders are going to be it's going to be 50 50. Right. Right.

And I think that that is not to say that like all Trump supporters are sexist and racist. But like, I think that because there's a lot of things that have not worked well in America for a very long time and government has not responded to the economic needs of most Americans for a very long time. So there is real disaffection. But I do kind of think there is this other almost mystical thing.

battle of the genders about that. You know, I didn't think it was by a coincidence that we ended up that Hillary Clinton's nomination brought out somebody like Trump on the right. Or was it Barack Obama's eight years in office as a president? That's part of it. I think that's all part of it, because that's part of it, of the moving away from the norm of the white man and in charge. And that is, you know, a big change that's, you

I do think that that is part of it. But why has this taken so unbelievably long in the United States? Dozens of countries have had women heads of state. Mexico just elected a Jewish woman, Claudia Sheinbaum, as president. Why does it seem like it's still such a big deal here in 2024?

Big country. There is a macho element in this country. There is the archetype of what the American male leader looks like. The West is part of it. And then there is their system, their systematic differences. You know, it's much easier. This is like a whole thing with women, with researchers about women leaders, too, is that it's much easier for a woman to be elected in a parliamentary system where a small number of people select you as the leader. And then you go before the country and

as the leader without having to go through a very bruising primary where people don't recognize you and don't see you and hold you to a different standard. And that is why Kamala Harris is in a much better shape going into her general election because she didn't go through that bruising process.

And this is not unusual. This is how a lot of times when women go into power, this is what happens. It was there was a male leader that was in charge and then something happens to them and then a woman takes over. And that's the first breakthrough.

In the last couple of days, she's raised $81 million in 24 hours. No, $100. They announced $100 this morning. Well, time goes on. How indicative are these numbers? What's the relationship between dollars and votes in this way? It's big. It's a big early indicator because it means if you have enough enthusiasm to give money, and these are small donors, that is, you're going to vote. It's a huge, it's not about how much money it is. It's about what it indicates for enthusiasm. Right.

By the way, Trump is going to have a huge number for his fundraising because of the assassination attempt. So he probably he probably has raised even a lot more than that. But what's important is what it indicates for she'll have plenty of money. She'll have all the money she needs. But it shows that there's enthusiasm and excitement. Jen, you know more about this game than anybody I know. If Harris calls you tomorrow.

What are your top three pieces of advice to her? I would say your speech on Monday night was fantastic. That is who you are. You are the prize fighter, accomplished woman who knows what she's doing better than anybody else. You don't need any more advice. Just keep that and go. Tell your story. Pick your running mate and just show as much energy as

And I actually like being with that person. Show us a new team, a new generation of leadership. And just don't doubt the team that you've built with your running mate in your campaign. Don't doubt yourself and just go. And I really think it's not true for all candidates, but I really think that's what she needs. She knows what the contrast is.

The contrast is really easy. The prosecutor versus the felon, the prosecutor versus the sexual abuse guy, the guy, the guy who's like corrupt and rigged versus the woman that held people accountable. Like, you know, that's all that's all fine. She's got that and she knows what she's done. And just it's like, you know, just go go do that. Jen Palmieri, thanks so much. Pleasure, David.

Jennifer Palmieri was director of communications for Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign, and she's now the co-host of MSNBC's podcast, How to Win 2024. I have one other question. When you watch the Republican National Convention...

What did you see? Yeah. I watched a lot of the Gilmore Girls during that. Went to Stars Hollow. That's called approach avoidance in the psychological terms. Yeah, I never get to do that. And I was like, you know what? I did watch. I watched Shady Pants. I don't believe you. You watched plenty of it. What did it say to you? I watched all of Trump and I thought the only speech in the entire convention that hung together was Eric Trump's. Because Eric Trump...

I'm David Remnick, and that's The New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for joining us. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, Ursula Sommer, and Alicia Zuckerman. With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Decat. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.