Meeting Your Match: Navigating the World of Modern Dating
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Elizabeth Laura Nelson tried out dating apps for the first time in 2015. She was in her late 30s, divorced, and dating apps hadn't been around before she got married in 2001. She decided to give it a go. So I got on the apps and it was a lot of fun. It felt easier than hoping to meet somebody at an event, a bar or the grocery store. You could online shop for a partner.

Elizabeth is a writer and lives in Brooklyn, so there was no shortage of potential mates. It was like a game, but I wasn't fully realizing how much of a game it is.

I was earnest in really looking for someone. She seemed to do okay at first. She matched, had dates, met somebody. They really clicked. So after their third date, Elizabeth suggested the next move. I texted him and said, should we delete our dating profiles? And he said yes. And so I did. And I thought he did.

came to find out some months later that he had not. And I just look back at, you know, young Elizabeth. I was so innocent.

Elizabeth took a break from the apps, but she got back on in 2021. For a while, she dated much younger guys and really got into the just-for-fun aspect of it. It's a game. It's swiping. It's not serious. But over time, she developed a dislike for the behaviors the dating apps seem to bring out in users. It's this idea that there's an endless supply of people who are just for fun.

And they only exist on a screen. And even if you're meeting up in real life, there's just this disposability. For example, it felt like dating online was making people way too picky, like a friend of hers. And she said, I showed up and he was wearing an orange shirt. So I knew it wasn't going to work out. Somebody else was mad because she met a man for a picnic online.

And he showed up with a chicken salad sandwich. And she said that mayonnaise is disgusting and she could never date someone who eats mayonnaise. And in her own dating experiences, Elizabeth didn't like what she was seeing either. The way people were treating her, the way she was treating them, the ghosting, deleting and blocking, the fruitless dates and the constant cycle of hope and disappointment.

She was getting bored and annoyed with all of it, especially those trite intro messages. Hey, beautiful. Oh, what a pretty smile. I love your eyes. Then Elizabeth had an epiphany. I want to be successful in my professional life far more than I care about having a partner. And the dating apps were just sucking up way too much time and energy.

So she deleted them. I've been off for over a year now. Yeah, over a year ago I quit. For good, I think. Elizabeth says she did get a lot of good things out of using these apps. She had many fun dates. She met people she's still friends with. And she says a lot of people blame the apps for not finding love. Same.

saying that, you know, the apps are designed to keep you paying and swiping. I don't necessarily think it's the apps. I think it's us. I think it's people. I think the apps can be, could be potentially a good tool. And it's we humans who are misusing it and having trouble connecting in a real way. So if you want to get into a long-term relationship, how can

How can you meet your match? What will increase your odds? On this episode, looking for love and what we know about finding it. To get started, let's get some pro tips from dating coach, Logan Urie. - In the world of love, we often feel like it's this magical chemical thing and it can't be broken down to its pieces. - But she says there absolutely is a science to finding love.

Logan is the director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge, the on-screen dating coach on the new Netflix show The Later Daters, and the author of How to Not Die Alone, the surprising science that will help you find love. So let's say I'm about to embark on...

finding a mate and I'm looking for a real relationship. I'm looking for a serious relationship. What are some things I should think about before I even put up a profile? Yes. I love that you asked what should you do before you even start the profile because I agree that there's a lot of work to do before. So a lot of the work that I do with my coaching clients is understanding the patterns that are holding them back from finding love. So

So we do this really interesting exercise in our coaching where they ask people in their life, their family and their friends, why do you think I'm single?

And it's often a very vulnerable exercise for people, but it produces really interesting results. So of course, sometimes you have family and friends that say, you're perfect. There's just no great guys out there. But a lot of times you hear things like you're too picky. You travel too much for work. You have unrealistic expectations. You're not over your ex. And so I love starting with this idea of what are the blind spots that we're not even aware of.

Then I talk to them about their relationship history and I really try to understand, okay, so they've had a number of relationships but all of them have met – all of them have been people that they started off as friends with. Okay, well, that seems to be something that really works well for them. How can we have them do that more? Or it seems like they get into long-distance relationships but those don't work out.

And so really understanding what hasn't been going right in the past, what has gone well in the past, and then how can we change that and make a plan for the future. So for somebody who is just getting back out there or maybe hasn't dated at all, I would get really clear on that.

What are you looking for? And that's not things like how tall somebody is or what color eyes they have, but do you have time for something serious right now? Are you looking to build a long-term connection? Are you actually just looking to get to know a lot of people and figure out who you want to be with? And so, so much inner work happens before you even create that profile. And then how important is the profile itself, how we present ourselves on these sites?

Profiles are really important. It's almost as if you were going to buy a billboard on the side of a highway. You get this limited amount of space to express who you are. And so for that billboard, you would want to put a lot of effort into the picture and what you write. And the same thing is true on your profile.

And so my advice for people is to do an exercise I call the three big things. So what are three big things that you really want to express about yourself on your profile? So it might be that you love the San Francisco 49ers, that you're really into cooking and that you love to spend time with your family.

Make sure through your different pictures and prompts that you're really expressing those things. And sometimes I find that I look at somebody's profile and it's all photos of them and their dog or all photos of them at anime conventions. And while those are things that they're passionate about, I'm not really getting their full story. And so your profile ideally has a mixture of humor and vulnerability and really gives us a sense or paints a picture for us of what it would be like to date you.

Logan says people should avoid getting stuck in endless messaging back and forth on the apps. I really recommend people get to the date faster than they think. So a problem that I've identified over the last few years is pen-palling when people are going back and forth for way too long and, you know, learning everything they can about this person when in reality that's what the date is for.

And so at Hinge, we found that after three days of chatting is actually the sweet spot of coordinating a date. And you can hop on FaceTime. You can talk on the phone. There's a lot of things that you can do if you still want to gut check your connection a little bit more. But instead of building up a fantasy of somebody in your head from weeks of chatting, it's a really good strategy to get to the date sooner and see if you have that in-person connection.

I know people who have all kinds of different kind of no-go zones where they're like, oh, this person doesn't like the right kind of books or they love country music. I hate country music. They have sort of all these immediate factors that weed people out.

Is that a bad strategy? This is a topic I'm really passionate about. I love to help people identify the difference between deal breakers and pet peeves. So deal breakers are something that truly represent a fundamental incompatibility. So it might be something like,

You have asthma and this person is a smoker or you're of one religion, this person is of another and you both want to raise kids in your own religion. That does seem like something that would make it hard for you to be together long term. But far too often we have pet peeves, things like this person chews with their mouth open or this person wears socks with sandals that perhaps you don't like and you wish were different. But there's no research telling me that those things are going to mean that you can't have a successful relationship long term.

And so I find as people get older, they add more and more things to their deal breaker list that are actually pet peeves. And so if you can really forget about the things that don't matter and actually double down on the things that do, that is going to get you closer to finding this dream relationship. I was laughing because socks and sandals is definitely a deal breaker. Sorry.

Is it? That's so funny. Okay, well, I'm glad you didn't see me this morning. So, yeah, that's a good point, though. I think sometimes we start focusing on the superficial things that are really...

meaningless in the long run, right? And we might be cutting ourselves out of a whole group of people that, you know, we could get along with really well if we gave it a chance. Absolutely. And one of the biggest things I found for this is height filters. So on dating apps, you can say the minimum height of somebody that you go out with. And so oftentimes you have straight women who are setting their height filters at six feet or taller. And

And we know that in the United States, only 14% of men are six feet or taller. So right away from the beginning, you're excluding 86% of people. And then you might be wondering, well, where's my husband? Or how come there's nobody new to connect with? And so really by expanding those filters and understanding that if you were at a bar and you met a great guy and he was 5'9 and you were both sitting down and you didn't know his height till you stood up, you wouldn't

stop the conversation, you would be excited about him. And so just understanding that expanding your filters and being more open to different types of people is one of the best ways to date like a scientist and to really get this result that you're looking for.

So you've already said it's better to get to a date or a more in-person meeting more quickly. So let's say we've made it to the date and there is no, quote, spark. This is something I hear from my friends all the time. You know, I had a date with this person and there just wasn't anything there. What's that all about? Right.

That's something that I'm definitely hearing as well. And I've been hearing this for a long time. And so it's this idea of people going on a date, especially someone who's maybe a little bit more burnt out or dating for a long time and says, yeah, they were great, but I just didn't feel the instant chemistry or the fireworks. I just didn't feel the spark.

And so I love to encourage people to really look beyond that. And I've found that there's three myths of the spark. So the first one is that if you don't have instant chemistry, it can't build over time. And we know that that's not true. Only 11% of couples say that they even experience love at first sight. And for many people, it's about getting to know somebody at work or somebody in your extended friend group. And the chemistry builds over time.

The second myth of the spark is that if you feel it, it's a good thing. And that's not always the case. Sometimes somebody themselves is just very sparky, very charismatic, and they actually give that feeling to a lot of people. And so you think it's something special between you and that person, but it's more about who they are. And sometimes it can actually be that they're unclear about their interest in you. And what you're experiencing as chemistry is actually anxiety and alarm bells.

And the third myth of the spark is that if you have it, then the relationship is viable. And that's also not true. I know so many couples who stayed in the wrong relationship because they met the quote unquote right way. And so it's enough to get you into a relationship, but it's not enough to keep you in it.

And instead, I really recommend that people go after the slow burn. And those are people who may not be as initially charming or life of the party, but the more you get to know them, the more you like them, they really get better over time.

And so if you have no interest in somebody on the first date, it's probably not a good idea to go out with them again. But if you could see the beginnings of interest, even if it wasn't that knock-you-off-your-feet spark, it's a good idea to pursue that. So Logan says the spark is overrated and she does not believe in soulmates.

My philosophy is that there's no such thing as a soulmate. I think we can make a lot of relationships work with a lot of different people. And so I've been with my husband now for almost 10 years and I really love our relationship, but I could also imagine that I could have had a completely different life with a different person. And so I embrace the life that I have, but I also understand that there were choices I made along the way that led to this life and I could have written a different love story with somebody else.

I don't think it's a problem to believe in soulmates if it propels you into relationships with an open mind. So there's a psychologist named Renee Franiunk and she found that people either believe that being happy in a relationship is all about finding the right person or

or they believe that relationship success comes from putting work in. And so when I work with people who I call romanticizers, I try to shift them from this idea that it's all about finding the perfect person. If you find them, then everything's going to be effortless and easy to this other thing called

the work it out mindset where they understand that they need to put effort in. And so I think it's only a problem when you end up giving up on relationships too quickly because you believe if this were my soulmate, then it should be effortless. And that's just not the case. So what are some hallmarks then of a successful date? You mentioned the beginnings of interest. What else should I see or feel?

When I was doing research for my book, I spoke to a lot of people who seem to have an unusual amount of success on first or second dates. And I was interviewing them. And what I found was that these people are attractive, but I wouldn't say, oh, of course, it's just the hottest people who the most people want to see again.

What it really was is that they were fun. They were really having experiences with the person that they went out with and they were meeting up. They were very present. They were in the moment and they had these open conversations talking about things that were going on in their lives or new things happening in the world. They were not sitting there and conducting themselves as if they were in a job interview. Yeah.

That's one of the biggest mistakes that I see people making is that they go there with the pursuit of information. I'm here to understand you and to evaluate you and to see if you're good enough. And instead, a first date should really be about how does it feel to be around this person? What side of me did they bring out? Did they make me laugh? Did I feel attractive in their presence?

How did my body feel around them? And so really tuning into the stuff that does matter, how it feels to be around that person versus those questions like where did you go to school that are much more of the job interview type questions. How

How do you prepare people for the disappointments that come with dating? You know, there are these times when people think, oh, this went really well and then it didn't or they don't hear from the person again. So there is a lot of potential heartbreak there, too.

It's true. Rejection is such a painful part of dating. And I think for those of us who aren't actively dating, we forget what it feels like because you match with somebody, you get your hopes up, you get so excited, you meet up with them, you're attracted to them, you think it goes well, and then either you never hear from them or it doesn't work out. And it's truly so painful. It's like somebody spent time with me and didn't want to see me again. And so I have so much empathy for that experience.

One thing I try to do is make the whole dating ecosystem better by recommending that people don't ghost. And so I have these scripts that people can save to their phone, just things like, it was great to meet you, enjoyed talking about such and such, but I don't think we're a romantic connection. I do think that at least hearing from somebody that they're not interested in seeing you again makes it easier than when somebody ghosts you and you don't hear from them at all.

But in terms of the emotional experience, what I recommend to people is just thinking about the fact that it's painful and it hurts, but now you have the information that you need to move on and you can always use this to inform the next one. So, wow, what I really found I liked about this person was that they have a lot of

side hobbies and they're really passionate about what they do. So that's something I'm going to pay attention to in the future. Or this person was different than the types of people that I normally go after. So I'm going to open my mind to the future for different types of people to date. So acknowledging the pain and the rejection, but also understanding that it's better to know how somebody feels about you and then you can use that information to date differently in the future.

Talk a bit more about ghosting because it's sort of a disease of our time in all kinds of realms, not just dating. And it does leave you with this shadow of doubt and wandering where you're just like, oh, my gosh, I just want to figure out what happened here and what went wrong. So it just puts claws in you more than it should, really, just because that other person

didn't say anything at the end. So talk a bit more about how that's become so prevalent. Yeah. So I first really thought about this topic about 10 years ago when I interviewed Sherry Turkle, who's a wonderful researcher and professor from MIT. And she was talking about how we really had a lack of empathy because when you're digitally communicating with somebody, you don't have to see the impact of your words on them.

And so, for example, she gave this story about how this grandson wanted to cancel on his grandparents and just send them a text. And his parents said, no, if you want to do that, you have to call them to hear the disappointment in their voice. And so I think as digital communication has changed, we've become a lot less empathetic.

And so in my research on ghosting, I've found that the number one reason why people ghost is that they feel like they don't want to hurt the person's feelings. Yet we know that 86% of people say, I'd rather you tell me it will hurt in the beginning, but I'd rather know. And so there's this disconnect where most people don't want to be ghosted, but most people do ghost because they feel like it's awkward to reject somebody outright. Right.

And so I've found that ghosting is increasing because with Gen Z or even Gen Alpha, people who really did go through some pivotal years during the pandemic, I found that there's just people struggle more with their communication and there's just a lot of awkwardness around these situations. And so I find that people are more sensitive to rejection. They are more

Having a harder time being upfront with somebody. And so this is something that I hope to really work on and tackle more in the future is arming people with those social skills to know how to say to somebody, it was great to meet you, but I'm not interested. Instead of leaving somebody in that pool of ambiguity of ghosting, that's really painful.

Now, sometimes a lot of people, I think, find themselves attracted to, quote, trouble. You know, they have this thing where they're like, oh, I know this person is a terrible fit for me and everything about them is crazy. But, oh, that was so much fun. You know, so there is this kind of attraction to want to tumble into that rabbit hole. What's that about? Yeah.

Yes. So there's really interesting research in psychology going back many years to psychologist B.F. Skinner that helps illustrate why we're interested in people who may be hot and cold with us. And so in this experiment, there were two pigeons and pigeon one was in a cage where every time they pressed the lever, they got food. And this is called a system of continuous reinforcement.

And then there's pigeon two who is in a different cage that also has a lever. And for a few minutes, the lever operates as it did for the first bird. Every time it presses the lever, they get a food pellet. But after a few minutes, things change. And instead of continuing to reward pigeon two with food every time it presses the lever, the experimenter shifts to a system of random or partial reward. And that means sometimes the pigeon has to press the lever five times or 13 times or 20 times, right?

And what happens is the second bird becomes obsessed with pressing the lever. In the final stage of the experiment, the food is cut off for both birds. The first bird figures it out quickly and stops pressing it. But the second bird keeps pressing the lever until it literally collapses from fatigue. And what we know is that pressing the lever without any reinforcement represents this addictive behavior. It's how slot machines work too. You never know if you're just one play away from winning big.

So when we date somebody who's inconsistent, it does the same thing to our brains. When you first start dating them, they give you tons of time and attention. That's that continuous reinforcement. You press the lever, you get the food. Some people keep giving it to you, but certain people pull away and sometimes they're into it and sometimes they're not. And that's the partial reward schedule. So if you are getting what you want from somebody, but only some of the time, it really becomes addictive.

And that's the thrill of, are they going to text me or not?

And what's a problem is that the people who make great long-term partners are the ones who are consistent. But oftentimes our brains code those people as boring and the other people as exciting. And so the important thing to do here is to recognize when that behavior that feels exciting is actually holding you back and frustrating you and reframing it so that you can go after those consistent people who will make great long-term partners.

And I guess we have to settle for ourselves if we are into the chase or the reward.

Yes, and I think that that is a very hard thing for most people to figure out for themselves because if your definition of love is I chase somebody and hope that they fall for me, then that inconsistent reaction from the person is what you're expecting. Oh, I need to prove my worth to them. I need to show up in all these different ways. Oh, they pulled back. That's what's always happened in love. And that's often the anxious attachment style.

And then there's people who are avoidant attached and their definition of love is that somebody is going to smother me and take away my independence. So when somebody chases them, that's what they expect. And it's only when these people either become more secure themselves or date a secure partner that

that they understand that there's actually a different way in which you have comfort with independence and comfort with intimacy. And it's not about the chase and pulling away. It's two people who are moving towards each other in a pace that feels earned and sustainable. And you're both choosing each other. It's not about rewards and chases and pigeons.

Logan Urie is the director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge and the on-screen dating coach on the new Netflix show The Later Daters. Her book is called How to Not Die Alone, a surprising science that will help you find love.

Coming up, so Logan says fireworks and instant chemistry are overrated. But what if it just feels too real to ignore? I said, I don't even know who he is, but he's definitely my soulmate. And I just found his Instagram. Do you think I should message him? That's next on The Pulse.

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This is The Pulse. I'm Maiken Scott. We're talking about finding love and what we really know about making a match. Lots of dating experts warn against immediate fireworks, and they say soulmates aren't real. But still, there's something so romantic about the idea of a spark, an instant connection that's just meant to be. Great

Grant Hill has this story of two lonely strangers brought together by chance. In 2018, Michael from New Jersey was about to finish up college and hating life. I was pretty miserable, to be honest with you. I was, like, in a really bad place mentally. He had a punk band, a mild bout of depression, and a lot of love.

and a girlfriend he was less than thrilled with. I was at the tail end of a really long high school relationship that was sort of dead four years prior to this point. I thought that that's what love was, like you stick with the person forever, even if you're miserable and they're miserable and you're both miserable and you get married and then that's marriage.

One night, he drove back home from band practice and settled into his childhood bedroom. And just had this thought that I was really lonely that night. And I remembered that back in high school, I used to go on this website called Omegle, which is like a chat roulette website. Chat roulette. A video call with a random stranger on the other end. I don't know how much I can say about what is on that, but it is usually...

You get the picture. Live camera feeds and people with nothing to do. That's not exactly what Michael was looking for. Logging on still made him feel bad because of his girlfriend. But he was bored and lonely. And this particular night felt like, okay, I'm going to just go on there.

And I did. And there she was. I hadn't really gone on Omegle too much since high school, but I was feeling lonely that night. Chloe, a nurse from Iowa. I was just finished a shift at the hospital that I was working at. Came home, looked at Omegle, and I was like, let me just see if there's any weird guys with facial piercings who want to tell me about their band and...

The fact that they lived in London, I don't know. Because they can be anywhere. That's like the appeal. But she did not see any piercings on her screen. She didn't see a face at all. It feels like a grimy place to be.

And so I was like, I don't want my face on this website. And so I had just my sweatshirt in frame. When we connected, it was just his sweatshirt. And it was like a cute scene from the New Jersey Pinelands. We started typing. There was no audio. It was all just typing to each other. So it was totally silent. And we were typing and it just said, stranger is typing. And he just typed, hey. And I think I just said, hey, what's up?

But eventually, the stranger raised his camera.

is here for whatever this is. And we kept referring to whatever our connection was as this, this in parentheses, this. I saw somebody that I had seen before, it felt like. I felt like an instant familiarity with her. And I was so intrigued by that because I...

also knew that there's no way I knew who this person was. But something in my body was like, I know this person. And we shared maybe a little bit about our lives. Not too much, I don't think. We were really not talking about situations and circumstances, more like ideas and philosophies of life. And I don't know, greater picture things, which I felt like I had never experienced.

Michael and Chloe talked and talked, falling deeper and deeper into whatever this was. To a stranger. To a random guy.

Five hours later, in the early morning, Michael revealed his real name to Chloe. He was an artist from the East Coast. He shared a link to his website. And Chloe went to work the next day, floating. I'm telling people at work, like, listen, I met somebody on Omegle, and he's my soulmate. And I've never believed in soulmates, A. And B, I don't even know who he is, but he's definitely my soulmate. And I just found his Instagram.

Do you think I should message him? And one of my friends at work was like, you have to send him a message and just say, like, nice to meet you. Too bad we can never get married. Chloe had a husband. She had tied the knot not too long before. He needed health insurance, and she had good coverage. And that turned out to be about the extent of the arrangement.

Like, literally, minutes after we got married, he's like, I think I'm polyamorous and I think I want to have an open marriage. And I was like, this is not exactly what I signed up for, but I married you, so I will be supportive and that's what we'll try to do. So he knew what I was doing. But Michael didn't know. Until Chloe followed her friend's advice and messaged him that day. Like, listen, I'm married and...

It's a shame that I'll never be your wife because you're somebody that I would easily have a relationship with and it would be like everything. And he was like, man, that is really unfortunate. I still have the text messages. It's like, man, that really does suck that you're married because you're such a wonderful person and I can see us getting married and having a life together. And then we just never stopped talking.

Michael wasn't sure if he could ever really be with Chloe, but he knew how he felt about her, and that either way, he should probably end things with his girlfriend. I just knew, like, I need to, this needs to be done for real. Michael thought he had to meet Chloe in person, at least once. So together, they made a plan. We were going to meet

in the exact halfway point between New Jersey and Iowa, and that happened to be Toledo, Ohio. Neither had ever been before, but something about that felt appropriate. They set a date and booked an Airbnb, and soon that day had come. Michael was going to book a plane, Chloe was driving there, and it was three hours into that six-hour drive when she got a call.

I backed out.

Orna Goralnik is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst who helps couples work through relationship issues on the Showtime docuseries, Couples Therapy. People harbor inside themselves all sorts of nascent, mostly unconscious fantasies about what their life is supposed to be.

A fleeting moment with a stranger leaves you under a spell.

But really, the spell is a trick you play on yourself. A kind of trapdoor out of your lonesome, chaotic reality into a world built entirely inside your mind. So it can be a defensive maneuver that gets in the way of actually dealing with the anxiety of meeting what's really outside of you. If you're in your fantasy world, in a certain way, you're always in control.

Michael feared his own fantasy had swallowed him whole. I was scared. I was miserable during that time. And part of me felt like this could just all be you going crazy. You're about to graduate college. You had a perfect life. And you're messing it all up for someone who's married. Like, this might just be what it is. You guys meet in Toledo. And then what?

Like, I hope you understand why. Like, I just, I, you know, I just hope you understand. And I'm really sorry. And just give me a call when you get this. All right, bye.

But Orner says that's the thing about falling in love. Sometimes people really pick up on something that really matters. Everything is a fantasy until it's not. They see something for real in another person and they look for them and then something great happens. Sometimes that spark is real. It's not all make-believe. O-O-N. Can you sound that out? Try it.

I was so mad at him. I was furious. I was ready to delete your phone number, block you from my phone, never talk to you again. I remember as soon as I turned the car around when he told me he wasn't coming, it literally started raining and I had to pull over in such a way that I was like, this has to be a movie. This has to be fake. Chloe called Michael back.

And he apologized for bailing on her. And she forgave him. To make up for it, Michael booked Chloe a round-trip plane ticket to New Jersey. As soon as we met in person, two things were obvious to me. His head was gigantic. And two, he was my soulmate. And I had him forever. I knew that it was going to be, it was a thing. There was no doubt in my mind, like, that was what I was going to do as soon as I met him in person.

It wasn't long before she packed up her stuff in Iowa and moved east for good. We met online in May. Then we met in person in June. And then I moved to New Jersey in September. She even had some help from her now ex-husband. He loaded my favorite recliner into the back of my car. He sold the whole house. He mailed me the divorce papers and sent me all my money. He was like, I wish you the best. He was literally so unsad to see me go. ♪

Today, Michael and Chloe have a four-year-old daughter, a brand new house. If you're feeling something, you need to go after it. We need to, I don't know, follow our hearts more often because it can lead you to a really beautiful life. And no plans on ever visiting Toledo.

That story was reported by Grant Hill. You're listening to The Pulse. I'm Mike and Scott. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. Saturday night in Toledo, Ohio is like being nowhere at all. All through the day, how the hours rush by. You sit in the park and you watch the grass die.

Coming up, two researchers decide to make their own dating app for science. As a researcher, I've spent a decade of my life studying how people find partners online, and I have a lot of ideas about how to make it better. That's next on The Pulse. Just two lonely truckers from Kearney, Nebraska And a salesman from places unknown says unknown

This is The Pulse. I'm Maiken Scott. We're talking about finding love and what we actually know about making a match. Dating app companies collect a lot of data on their users, which they can study to find patterns or to improve their product.

But that treasure trove of data is usually not available to outside scientists. Alan Yu has this story of two researchers who decided to create their own dating app. Sociologist Elizabeth Brook did not set out to study online dating. Instead, she used the focus on neighborhood segregation and residential mobility. She is interested in how people find opportunities, pick strategies, and learn from mistakes.

Then she read about online dating data, and she realized the quest for love matches her research interests. At first, Elizabeth worked with dating app companies, but she never quite got to do what she wanted. As a researcher, I've spent a decade of my life studying how people find partners online, and I have a lot of ideas about how to make it better. But she could not get the dating app companies to implement her ideas.

She says she cannot discuss specifics, but she had ideas about how to help people find partners and discover matches more easily. I was very frustrated that I couldn't, there isn't a clear line of communication between the scientific community and people in these for-profit companies. And so I felt very stymied in my ability to develop, to have like a back and forth level of communication where the science can inform the app and the app can inform the

science, that's really kind of the fantasy. But the fantasy became reality when she found psychologist Amy Gordon. Amy studies dating and romantic relationships, and she also felt like something was missing.

Her research is about couples who are already in a relationship, but she has not studied what happens at the start of a relationship. And then the big missing piece, I think, in relationship science is people who study relationship formation, right? Why do people end up together? Tend to be very different in doing research that's distinct from the people who study existing relationships, right? So those are almost...

Two separate fields that rarely cross over. Another big question, why people stay in relationships or not. We know a lot about it. People have been doing this research for decades, but we still can't reliably predict whether any given couple is going to stay together or not from a psychological perspective. Amy and Elizabeth are both at the University of Michigan.

And they realized that their research interests and academic disciplines match each other perfectly. Amy and I have a lot of complementarities in our scholarship in the sense that sociologists focus more

So they got together to form a research team and designed a dating app for students at the University of Michigan. They call it Revel.

In some ways, it works like any other dating app. You set up your profile, up to five pictures, your first name, a brief bio, 30 to 50 different questions. Fun ones like, what kind of pasta shape are you? There are ones about your personality or your drinking habits or your religion. Your favorite places on campus, things to do in Ann Arbor and stuff like that. But there are some differences.

First of all, the students sign a research consent form before they create a profile. And they also answer questions that most other dating apps do not pose to users. A lot of different metrics about who they are, their psychological experience, and their preferences in a partner, and their relationship goals, things that you might not typically collect in a dating app, but that

And as students start using the app, matching and chatting with people, they can fill out more surveys. Questions to ask them how excited they are about that person, how similar they think they are to that person. And that allows us to

to collect psychological experiences that you can't get just from the behavioral piece of it that is what is typically the data you get from a dating app. For instance, unlike other dating apps, their app would ask users why they chose to say yes or no to a particular person. The goal was to collect data from people before and during relationships.

Amy says a big selling point is that unlike commercial dating apps, they are not trying to make money from their users. For us, the profit is the science. And our hope is to use that science to help people have better relationships, right? Better dating experiences and feed it back into the application.

both in terms of people's user experience in the app, but the knowledge that we can pass on to them as well. I spoke to a few other researchers in this field, and they all like this idea. Luke Brunning is an ethicist at the University of Leeds in the UK. He studies ethics and philosophy as it relates to love, sex, and relationships.

Luke says the idea of a non-profit research dating app is interesting because it could help users learn more about themselves. Apps have all of this data on us and our preferences and how we behave, what we appear to like, and they don't give us that data.

And it'd be really interesting from a user point of view to have a better sense of like how I actually behave when I'm swiping or when I'm talking. You know, I might think I'm really great, but actually I'm not. Or I might think I'm, you know, good at communicating or like I don't have a racial preference or something or a preference for height, but actually I do. And so like there's this kind of data gap that I think a nonprofit app in particular could help bridge. Sociologist and relationship expert Jess Carboneau used to do research at Tinder and Bumble.

She applauds Amy and Elizabeth for making their own app to collect data that online dating companies would not share with researchers.

And she says it will be very exciting for the team at the University of Michigan to study relationships over time. And that's something that, you know, when I was at Tinder and Bumble that I wanted to do and didn't have the capacity to do as much. And that's certainly something the researchers at Michigan can do by virtue of having them confined to a college campus. You know, in theory, they could also follow them over time if they wanted to create a cohort and follow these individuals after they graduated. But she says there are also different limitations the researchers will have.

people will probably be between the ages of 18 to 30.

They may not be looking for long-term relationships and may be more focused on school. And she has another question. On the dating apps, I think most people might understand that their data are seen, but they don't believe that they're being studied in the same way, in the way that if people have an understanding that they're being studied online, will they behave differently? I don't know.

To that, clinical psychologist Alexandra Solomon says the researchers will be just fine. She says the research dating app is a little like her working with a therapy client when they are in a relationship. Them knowing that I'm in it with them actually...

forces them to narrate their experience. It forces them to have part of themselves in the experience and part of themselves observing and translating the experience to me, their therapist. And that is how you build self-awareness. That's how you build introspection. And those are essential skills, not just for dating, but for sustaining a lasting relationship. She teaches a popular course called Marriage 101 at Northwestern University in Illinois.

And she says the research dating app might actually help people who are looking for dates. Dating is incredibly confusing. It is inherently anxiety provoking. And one of the ways that human beings best cope with anxiety and uncertainty is by being helpful. And so these daters then get to say to themselves, I'm being helpful to the world of science. I'm being helpful to these researchers. I'm being helpful to other future daters by helping.

giving a little bit of a window into my process. Revel, the research dating app at the University of Michigan, has been available as a beta since December.

Amy and Elizabeth say they already have a few hundred users and more than a hundred matches. We hope to actually bring people into the lab for their first dates as well, that we can get a better sense of what this is and understand better who we end up forming relationships with. A first date in your lab? Yeah. Is your lab a very romantically decorated or...? It does have plants.

So we also have a fast food lab downstairs and I was chatting with that faculty member who studies eating behavior the other day and she said that she would be happy to collaborate and let people have their first dates in her fast food lab. ♪

She says this isn't a completely unheard of idea. She already has couples do activities in her lab, while her research team tracks how they are thinking, feeling and behaving with surveys, scientific instruments and recordings. The ultimate goal is to figure out what predicts chemistry and compatibility.

The University of Michigan has tens of thousands of students across three campuses, so Amy and Elizabeth could have a very large research pool. They plan a full release for the app in the fall. That story was reported by Alan Yu.

We're talking about dating. A lot of dating apps are starting to use artificial intelligence to help you write a profile, for example, or to craft witty and flirtatious messages to people you're interested in. I think the problem is when AI actually comes to replace...

you in stating what your interests are, inventing them for you so that you can become more of an appealing candidate into the stating poll. It just creates a lot of ground to new kinds of deception. That's Eli Benjamin Israel. He's getting a PhD in philosophy and he's interested in ethics around dating, trust and consent.

He says deception is often part of the game at the start of a connection. Part of the fair game as well. Even like part of the way that we present ourselves in a first date is never completely authentic. The famous saying of just be yourself usually never works. And...

I'm married for several years. And also the wonder of a longstanding relationship is that you come to realize who the person actually is. And that doesn't say that the person was being deceptive towards you, but perhaps that they were making some more attractive parts of themselves more salient or hiding the parts that require more of a...

safe grounds in order to be revealed. But with AI getting in the mix, there could be whole new layers of deception. And if we think about the trust that is necessary for us to move forward the different stages of the relationship from the virtual into the real world, as depending on that kind of authentic image of yourself, so I think that also can affect the

validity of the trust that you have granted to the other person, the consent that you have given to them into moving forward.

Let's say AI realizes that a big portion of the dating pool is looking for people who love cats and climbing. So it creates you a profile based on these preferences. If I consider to have an in-person date with you based on the fact that you are a cat lover and climbing enthusiast...

Once I come to realize that you're not that person, it's not just a matter of you lying. It's a matter of you having received my consent under deceptive grounds. And I think it also says something about what we think of ourselves. Because if we feel like whatever we are isn't good enough and we need all these other things to present ourselves in this shiny, beautiful way,

What does that say about what I think about me? That's a very good point. It sets unrealistic expectations for both sides, that I'm this wonderful, cat-loving person, that I'm not. But it also sets out the place that we have for our authentic selves here.

as a person that deserves love, a person that deserves having significant relationships, or even one night stands. Eli says there are efforts to use AI to improve the dating app experience in some areas. For example, we see AI sometimes analyzing

our texts in order to make sure that there's no problematic or disrespectful language before we send something. AI can also screen messages and blur explicit images so that users aren't blindsided. But he says it's important to come up with ethical guidelines for using AI in dating. And part of the dangers of AI getting into online dating is that

The companies, the apps themselves, are not necessarily taking the ethical considerations enough into account before they move forward into making them accessible for their users. And the problematic aspects are that usually there is a matter of authenticity that can very easily be jeopardized.

This creates the problem that we are not even sure if we're talking to a real person sometimes, if the description of the person actually fits with the description of the person that we hope to end up meeting. And those are aspects that I think that if they ever come to be available to the users,

that should come after a very thorough educational effort as well. Ellie Benjamin Israel is a philosopher and a member of the Ethical Online Dating Network. That's our show for this week. The Pulse is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia, made possible with support from our founding sponsor, the Sutherland Family, and the Commonwealth Fund. You can follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

Our health and science reporters are Alan Yu and Liz Tan. Our intern is Christina Brown. Charlie Kyer is our engineer. Our producers are Nicole Curry and Lindsay Lazarski. I'm Maiken Scott. Thank you for listening. Music

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