An interview with Sam Altman, Co-Founder & CEO of OpenAI
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Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm

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Let's talk about something that might be keeping you up at night. Cybersecurity. According to Vanta's latest State of Trust report, it's the number one concern for UK businesses. And that's where Vanta comes in. Whether you're a startup, growing fast or already established, Vanta can help you get ISO 27001 certified and more without the headaches.

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Because when it comes to your business, it's not just about keeping the lights on. It's about keeping everything secure. Hello and welcome to the Times Tech Podcast. I'm Katie Prescott here in the city of London. And unusually, I'm joined in the studio today by Danny Fortson, who's over from Silicon Valley. Hello. Hello. So I should drag you over to London in the rain. I know. That's all right. I'm used to it. It's fine. But...

We have done because today we've got a very special edition of the Times Tech podcast. We're joined by someone who is synonymous with AI, who grabs the headlines not only for tech, but also for what he says about the economy, about society, about the way we all might live in future. And I'm, of course, talking about Sam Altman, the co-founder and chief executive of OpenAI. Hello. Hello. Thank you for having me. Welcome to London. Good to see you.

Now, Sam, on the pod in the last few months, we've had some amazing guests, some people you know well. So we had Satya Nadella from Microsoft. We had Demis Hassabis from Google DeepMind. We've had Dario Amadei from Anthropic. But I think it's fair to say that you and OpenAI in particular, the company that brought us ChatGPT,

have really led us into this debate around AI and kind of in this race toward this brave new and sometimes scary world. So I just want to thank you for taking the time on your Whistle Stop tour to talk to us for a bit. It's cool to be here. Thanks a lot for having me.

I can't believe it's only two years since ChatGPT launched, give or take. Two years and a quarter, I guess, right? Two years and a quarter. We're coming up on that? Yeah, it's still not a long time. And what a lot has happened in that time. Last night you published a blog where you started looking forward to where you think the tech might go. And I was really struck by one of the lines in it where you said, in a decade, perhaps everyone on earth will be capable of accomplishing more than the most impactful person can today.

What do you mean by that? What does that look like to you? As you were saying, it's not, I mean, it feels like it's been a long time, but two years and a quarter is not that long. And think about what you couldn't do 27 months ago that you could do now. It's really already come in an amazing way. The leverage that an individual person who's really like fluent with these tools and uses them has. We just launched something called Deep Research about a week ago, maybe actually a week ago today. And I was catching up a little bit over the weekend on what people are saying about it.

And people like a lot of people who are maybe they were even recent AI skeptics were saying things like I can now do things that would have taken me like many days or even weeks of work. AI can do like it in 20 minutes and it can do a bunch of them parallel. And it's going to like change the way I do my job. It's going to change the way my scientific field works, this, that, the other thing. And if you just project that same rate of change forward another two years and a quarter, another, another, and you get all the way out 10 years, um,

Yeah, I think that's going to mean people can do incredible things. Like, I'm not sure what I would ask the AI to do for me at that point. You know, I got 10 years to figure it out. But,

I sort of think that we will be quite literally limited by the questions we can come up with. And we'll have AI to help with that too. And this is the move towards artificial general intelligence, AGI. What does that mean to you? It's sort of bandied around as this term that- You know, I tried to like ban myself from using that term a bunch of times. It's in the blog. I know. Well, I eventually gave up. The reason I tried to stop it is because I think it's so poorly defined.

And as we get closer, there are some people who would say, oh, you know, we have AGI right now. There are some people who say, you know, until the self-replicating space probes leave Earth, we don't have AGI. And we've tried to come up with other, I think, more nuanced systems. Like we have these like five levels of AI that we use internally to talk about progress. But the AGI, not AGI question, I think there's a real definitional problem at this point. That said...

The word seems so sticky, I gave up trying to fight it. But essentially, you were meaning more advanced. Really smart AI. And do you think there'll be a moment when people, a little bit like a chat GPT moment, where people will see that AGI landing in their lives? That things will change so much? No, I don't think there'll be a single moment like that. I think there may be for... You know, I think you see...

people say sometimes is I just had my personal AGI moment. In fact, with this deep research launch, a lot of people said this is my personal AGI moment. It's doing real economically valuable work. And I didn't think a system was going to do this. But I don't think the world as a whole will agree on the year that AGI comes. And it's kind of like the idea of

Of democratizing genius, right? Like we can all just tap into genius level intelligence to do whatever we want. In every area as much as you need. All working together super well. No one's not getting along. Perfect collaboration. I think it will be. But the question is, so what is the downside, right? Because if you are open AI, democratizing AGI...

a lot of the value that creates funnels toward open AI and away from huge swathes of the world. So what does that look like in terms of that? You talk about in your blog post about equality. So look, like any technology, I think there'll be a lot of good and a lot of bad. My hope, my genuine belief is that there'll be orders of magnitude more good than bad from this one, but there will be real bad. And I think you're seeing some of it now, but,

I'm very optimistic. I'm not a believer that we just run out of things to do and we have this miserable existence where we sit around and just sort of do drugs and play video games. No, we're all on UBI. Universal basic income, sitting under a tree, writing poetry, because that's the only thing we have left to do. No, can't shut GPT, write the poetry. Probably better than this. I mean, a couple of things there. One, it's been this very popular thing throughout history to predict that we're all going to be working.

four hours a week or whatever and we're all gonna you know what and some of us do and actually i think people should have the option to do that some people want to do that i think that's great i don't think people should like have to work if they don't want to work to survive

But we seem to be pretty hardwired to want to create, to be useful to other people, to sort of do stuff, to like feel like we're doing something of significance. And if a person from a thousand years ago could look at our jobs today, I would say those are not, none of that is real work. Like, you know, you're all like playing some game to entertain yourselves, but you've got plenty of food and plenty of shelter. You don't have to work this hard. You're doing it for some other reason. And I hope that the people listening

100 or 1000 years in the future. I hope we would feel that way about them because they're doing like such interesting things that to us seems so trifling. That doesn't mean the transition won't be messy. In fact, I expect it in some ways to be pretty painful. It's easy for politicians to sit around and talk about how we're going to reskill people this and

I hear that a lot. Oh, we're just going to upskill people. It's going to be fine. That feels a little facile. I agree with you. It seems to me like just having looked at history that kind of in two generations, society can absorb any amount of technologically driven labor market change. But we've never had to do this in like...

10 years or five years or whatever this is going to be. Hopefully it will take longer than that. And I believe it probably will, even though the technology is going to go so fast. The inertia of society is its own thing. Just because it's top of mind, this deep research thing that we just launched. My, this is not a scientifically rigorous thing. My vibes based estimate is that does about 5% of all tasks in the economy today. One feature, 5% of all the tasks in the economy today. I think you launched a week ago. Yeah.

And what tasks are they? Help me summarize all of the research in this field to do this. Help me find the best baby crib to possibly buy given these constraints. Write this consulting, write a report like a consultant, write on this topic. Do this complex financial analysis. So when you talk about the pain falling, actually it's on the sort of knowledge workers, really? Yeah.

Certainly, we will feel the impact on knowledge work well before physical work. We and others are picking up our work on robotics now, but that's going to come behind. I want to talk about DeepSeek. Yeah. It was like another big moment. Everybody freaked out when this Chinese rival comes out and says...

we've trained this new model. It's very capable. And by the way, it's a fraction of the cost. And I know there's a lot of debate around actually how much it costs, but the idea is they put it out there as very powerful and certainly for the inference costs quite cheap. What was that moment like for you? Was it surprising and has it changed anything around how you are approaching the business? These things are never surprising in the abstract. We knew that there were going to be

at some point we would get more serious competitors and models that were very capable. But you don't know when you wake up any given morning that that's going to be the morning. So it's like, it is not surprising at all that it happened. It's surprising it happened that day, I guess. They did some nice work. And I think there's also some nice pieces of product work, like showing the chain of thought was clearly something people wanted. Massive availability in the free tier was clearly something people wanted.

Research-wise, it's not a big update to us, although they did a few nice things there as well. Moore's Law changed the world, and that was an increase in transistors per chip doubling every 18 months. Our observation in our field is that the price for a given level of intelligence, once it's achieved, falls by about 10x per year. So 100x in the last two years. Every two years, yeah. Right. And...

That is a crazy thing. Like Moore's law changed the world at a much, much gentler slope. And, you know, in that sense, we should expect more things like deep seek and we're going to do our best to keep pushing the price down too. Are you worried that you might be the Napster of AI?

Like you're the company that comes out with this brand new technology. It changes everything in that context, music business. But then it ultimately gets surpassed by the fast followers who kind of create a more sustainable business. And I'm thinking about like the open versus closed debate. Yeah. And that kind of thing. Of course I'm worried about it. You got to wake up every... The only way to not have that happen is to wake up every day worried about it. Yeah. Like I... So I think the reason...

The reason that I hope it won't happen to us is because we stress about it all of the time. You talked in your blog post last night about the need for continuous investment in AI infrastructure. And you think that still stands even after the launch of DeepSeek and them showing that they can do it cheaper? I mean, I would love it if they convince everybody else.

I mean, maybe I should say, oh yeah, no one should build big compute clusters. It's all going to be super cheap. You know, no one go do this. But yeah, of course we think it's still important. Yeah. And you're raising at the moment $40 billion led by SoftBank? Well, that's just for... Stargate. Yeah, Stargate is a much bigger project. Stargate is the...

Stargate is a $500 billion project to build a very large training inference system. It sounds crazy big now. I bet it won't sound that big in a few years. And if we get to do this again, which I hope we do, you'll be like, you're raising $5 trillion for a cluster? What the? I'll be like, yeah, well, you got to keep going. Would you do the same in Europe? I would love to do a Stargate Europe, yeah. I have had some conversations about that last week. I think it'd be great. Yeah. And just looking at the scale, yeah,

The top seven tech companies last year and then this year are going to put something like $560 billion into new AI data centers, infrastructure, et cetera. Half a trillion dollars. You think...

In retrospect, that might look not trivial, but kind of like, yeah, that's just what you're doing. Eventually I do, but I fully expect along, like in any of these things, there'll be some booms and busts along the way. And I hope we get to go by people's overbuilt infrastructure at like 10 cents on the dollar. I suspect we'll get a bite of that apple. We're seeing the

big tech companies put billions and billions into infrastructure. I just wonder what you think about the amounts governments are putting in, which is a fraction of that. I think the UK has announced that it's spending 800 million on a supercomputer. We're trying to spend 800 quid, 800 million quid on a supercomputer, and then you have half a trillion over there. Does that make sense for governments to even try?

I was pleasantly surprised on this trip. I got to meet with some governments around the world. I said, "I'd like a Stargate for X." And I said, "Yeah, we should totally talk about that. We could probably do it for you. What kind of scale?" And I was expecting the governments to say, "I want a $100 million version or a 800 million quid version." There are some governments that are ready to buy big pieces of AI infrastructure. And for those that aren't?

Well, I mean, hopefully so much gets built in the world and the world stays open enough that you could just use it as cloud services. But if I were a government, I would certainly be thinking about it. This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by Vanta. Let's talk about something that might be keeping you up at night. Cybersecurity. According to Vanta's latest State of Trust report, it's the number one concern for UK businesses. And that's where Vanta comes in.

Whether you're a startup, growing fast or already established, Fanta can help you get ISO 27001 certified and more without the headaches.

And Vanta allows your company to centralize security workflows, complete questionnaires up to five times faster and proactively manage vendor risk to help your team not only get compliant, but stay compliant. So stop stressing over cybersecurity and start focusing on growing your business in 2025. Check out Vanta and let them handle the tough stuff. Head to vanta.com forward slash the times tech to learn more.

Because when it comes to your business, it's not just about keeping the lights on. It's about keeping everything secure. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.

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149 glp ones now that's noom smart get started at noom.com real noom user composited to provide their story individual results may vary not all customers will medically qualify for prescription medications compounded medications are not reviewed by the fda for safety efficacy or quality and you're uh on your way to the ai action summit yes which i love as a name no longer the safety summit no exactly we're into action now in paris um

What's your message? What do you want to say and what do you want to hear? I actually want to listen. I talk, I say anything that comes into my mind all of the time. I think there is like, I think an LLM could perfectly predict what I would go say about AI policy and economic impact and what countries should do and what I think the trajectory is going to look like. But this is a great opportunity for me to go listen. Like they really get an impressive group of people to come that we don't normally get to interact with.

So I plan to say as little as possible and try to just get a sense of how people have changed over the last year. Is there if you had a wish list and you walked away and be like, oh, this thing is actually going to happen, whether that's regulation, policy, etc. The kind of policy I think there's a lot of crazy policy ideas that people throw out.

They're just not going to happen. In fact, I hope they don't. But a reasonable one that I have been excited about and more people seem to say like, okay, maybe something like this. The IAEA for nuclear material is imperfect, but it is an interesting, deeply imperfect. It is an interesting example of an international regulatory body charged with safety of something with global impact that has worked reasonably well. And I think it's interesting to see

Think about how countries, each with very powerful AGIs, are going to coordinate how we're going to have shared safety standards, how we're going to have like shared benefits at that sort of scale. So again, I wouldn't, I'm not going to say I'm going to defend the IAEA, but I think looking at that as...

an org to learn something from much more so than like a CERN or something else. I'd be excited if there were more conversation in that direction. As you say, they do bring together some amazing people at these conferences and the Chinese are going to be there. We talked about DeepSeek earlier. Yes, of course, it was revelatory because of how much cheaper the model was, but it was also the fact that it was Chinese. Do you see the US and China or the Western China in an arms race over AI?

That's kind of what I was getting at with that last thing. Yeah. Like you really like something more like that than something that people call an arms race. And I think if, you know, if we can figure out this sort of shared safety standards and like shared, here's how everyone's going to benefit. I would feel much better about that framework than I'll like arms race framework. And do you feel that's there? I mean, do you talk to the deep sea guys at all? I'm going to. Oh, that's interesting. What at the summit? No, a different time. Okay. What do you think you'll say to them?

I don't know. It's just someone, I'm sorry, ranging it. Yeah. Interesting. And so just on that, on the arms race idea, the idea is we'd like to be cooperative. China has some very different principles and ideas than Ben does the West. So is it really about kind of getting the West together and kind of arraying our ideas and values around AI in opposition to China? Yeah.

And a follow on question is just around recently, a lot of the big AI developers, Meta, Amazon, Anthropic have started doing deals or at least changing policies to allow them to start working with the Pentagon, working with intelligence agencies to kind of basically get into the business of war in some form or fashion. I believe you guys have done a deal with Anduril. Can you talk about why you're doing that?

So on the first part of the question, there are some things that the West and China will very happily agree on about what standards for AI should be. And then there will be some things where AI in China and AI in the UK will follow very different rules. That's not necessarily untenable. You know, I think you can imagine like

sort of hierarchy of here's what all AI has to do globally. Here's what AI has to do in this country, this country, and then individual users of that can pick a lot of stuff. But there is one thing that I think is not so easy to resolve is are we heading towards like more authoritarian AI or more democratic AI? And

And the trade, I mean, obviously I'm on the very much on the democratic AI side, but that comes with some trade-offs and that will come with some bad things in society too. Like we have never empowered individuals this much as we're about to. And I think that's the only way forward, but it is a, you know, it is a different, it is a different thing. So, so my hope is that we can find what we can agree on, have some rules and the technology operates differently in different countries. I'm sure that, you know, there'll be different models in China versus the West and,

we've all got a shared interest in like the world continuing on. And I think we can find, we did this with nuclear weapons. I think we can find common ground here this time too. On working with the military, I think it is, it's not like a big focus of ours, but it's something we want to explore and start doing. I think it'd be very bad if the United States government does not understand AI and the impact it's going to have.

So we'd like to try to help. Right. And I take your point about trying to get common goals when it comes to safety and regulation. But the situation we've got at the moment around the world is very patchwork, and particularly here in Europe. Well, in the European Union, it's been quite strict, and that applies to other areas of tech as well. How do you feel about operating in Europe because of that? Does it put you off at all?

We're going to follow the rules, obviously. It's, I think, up to the European people to decide and the leaders to decide what they want. There are obviously consequences to the decision either way. Because it means you're playing by different rules and different jurisdictions. It's, you know, like let's say the European rules require that it takes...

three months of testing for a new model or a new modality or something like that. Let's say five months. And let's say our improvement cycle is we have a new model come out every three months. We never catch up. We never get to deploy. It's always something that's like pretty far out of date. And again, that might, I'm not here to say that's like the right or wrong choice. I obviously have a personal bias, but I think people can reasonably disagree on that. But I do think you have to look at the whole package here. And if we are right, that this technology is going to be so impactful to not

and changing every few months to not get the, not just the economic benefit of that, but this sort of like influence on the world that comes from mastering those tools and integrating them into an economy. That comes with a cost. On the other hand, you can just say like, hey, we think these are very powerful tools and we want to make sure that we can represent to our citizens that they're safe. And how do you feel about the UK regulation in that? Do you feel similarly? No, no, no. I think we're...

I think it's a very productive relationship and we'll be able to ship products here. I don't know, maybe not quite as fast as the US, but pretty quick. You ship to politics. Sure. I know nothing about politics, but I love to say things anyway. But you talked about Stargate. You were there with the president.

How's it been working with President Trump? He loves infrastructure. Cool. So is that the pitch? You talked about infrastructure rather than tech? Well, I mean, there's sort of the same. We have been trying to figure out how to do this giant infrastructure project in the US for a while. Like the, I would like, for many reasons, I would like AGI to be trained in the US. And the tech and infrastructure for this are,

Like to be able to do the tech, you need to have this giant infrastructure project. And it had felt like we weren't going to get it done. And I think President Trump has such a different opinion on building things and permits and power and manufacturing in the US. So how was it working? Was the Biden administration constructive or destructive to AI and tech? Yeah.

not easy on the infrastructure front. There were some other good things, but they were certainly not like, I'll give you whatever permits you need to build big data centers. Destructive in that way. Right, right, right. And why did you decide to give money to his inauguration? Because you haven't always agreed with him in the past. Of course not. But I didn't agree with all with Biden in the past. I mean, this whole thing, the whole thing that you have to like agree with everything a politician says or nothing, like, I think that doesn't make sense. There were

If you pick any of the recent American presidents, there were some things I really liked to all of them and some things I really didn't like about all of them. But it has felt like a vibe shift in Silicon Valley. And Danny, you've written about this quite extensively. Yeah. Can you talk about that? Because, I mean, all the techies were there. Everybody's giving to his inauguration fund. All these companies are settling with him, paying lots of money to the presidential library fund, et cetera. So it is complicated.

It is a vibe shift for sure. I think part of it is the last administration was so, the word that came to mind was hostile. I think that's a little bit too strong, but they were not friendly to tech or business or kind of anything that I would view as constructive and like, you know, and so we all kind of like, it's a very welcome breath of fresh air. Right. Are you guys all in a group chat being like, oh, this is great. Yeah.

I don't think exactly that. People are like, hey, this is like, maybe we can build a lot in the US now. I think there's huge excitement that we can

Not just keep being good at software in the US, but maybe we can go figure out how to like get good at semiconductor fab again, get good at like robotic factories to make data centers again, get good at building new energy. And we that is a vibe shift. Right. I think, you know, again, I don't think these people agree with the president on everything, nor do they agree with the last president or everything. But like, I think it's good to try to find the things that you can collaborate on and drive towards something you believe in.

I want to ask you about chips very briefly and then Elon Musk, if I may. Sure. On the chips point that you just... Maybe semiconductors is the nicer one to start with. Do you see a challenger coming up to NVIDIA at the moment with...

The launch of DeepSeek, you know, all of the money that other people are putting into trying to find a technology that can rival them. When's their dominance going to end? NVIDIA is an incredible company. I mean, they do a great job in the same way that people like, you know, even you are always like, oh, you know, these competitors are going to come for chat GPT and this is that. And then like it just keeps going. I think it's always easier to.

be the commentator saying someone is about to get screwed with than it is to actually go take their business. I think they're an incredible company. That said, yeah, this part of the economy is so valuable that more people will make great chips.

NVIDIA is a real powerhouse. It's really interesting to watch. Well, let's talk about Elon Musk because it was part of the political conversation. Do you still speak to him? He's suing OpenAI at the moment. Yeah, about your pivot to becoming a full profit. Well, it's like many versions of the same lawsuit. I think it's like I've lost track. But you were co-founders. Yeah, that sounds right. You used to be friends. Do you speak to him still? Not much.

When was the last time you spoke? In person or a text? Both. I don't know. I mean, yeah. Did you miss him as a friend? No, I don't. I think he's really changed. I'm sad. I mean, I still look up to him as like someone who's accomplished incredible things and was a great inspirational figure. But he has changed in the last. For sure. And I'm amazed sometimes that you're still on X. A lot of people here in the UK have left X and moved to blue sky, but it's still where when we want to know what Sam Altman's doing at

That's where we go. Should I switch to Blue Sky? I haven't tried it. Well, yeah, come over. I think the water's warm. Did you switch? I did, yeah. And you like it better? Yeah, I do. And is that because it's a better product or it's just like you don't have to deal with the Elon craziness? I feel like it's a better product. I feel like my feed is more people and things that I'm interested in and there's less random stuff. I'll give it a try. Yeah, okay. Does that mean you're leaving X? Probably not. But I will try it. Me too.

We're running short on time, but I wanted to ask you about, I read the very long New Yorker piece that was written on you many moons ago. Oh, wow. Yeah. Like 10 years ago or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there was talk of you running for governor at that point or something. It was interesting. It was a different time. But there's a quote in there from Paul Graham from Y Combinator who said, Sam's extremely good at becoming powerful.

And I'm just wondering what you think about that, especially as we're now you're building this thing that theoretically is going to change everything. It is not what I wake up in the morning thinking about. You don't wake up and be like, how am I going to become more powerful today? I really don't. But I can't argue that I ended up in a fairly influential position.

Yeah. So I don't know how to like square those. Yeah. I mean, is it, do you ever wake up and be like, oh, I'm going to meet a president today. And then the prime minister of this over there. And do you ever like wake up and kind of like pinch yourself? Actually, I never do. I, I, I, for good or bad, I think an amazing skill of people's and mine in particular is to get used to anything good or bad. Like anything becomes normal so fast. Yeah. And so like, this has been in some objective way, a very strange last couple of years for me.

And yet living through it, the perception is very much like, I guess this is just like life now. And I kind of, you know, vaguely wish it wasn't, but you kind of deal with whatever gets thrown at you and that's fine. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for coming and joining us today on the podcast. I know you've got a packed schedule while you're in Europe. Thanks for having me. So it's really great to see you. Thank you. Good to see you. And I will try BlueScar. Do you? Maybe. I thought you were taking the piss out of me when you said you hadn't. Maybe we should just make a better, like I'll try it, but then maybe we'll just like go make a better. Okay. You should totally. Yeah. I'll try this first. Chat, GPT, social media. This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by Vanta.

Let's talk about something that might be keeping you up at night. Cybersecurity. According to Vanta's latest State of Trust report, it's the number one concern for UK businesses. And that's where Vanta comes in. Whether you're a startup, growing fast or already established, Vanta can help you get ISO 27001 certified and more without the headaches.

And Vanta allows your company to centralize security workflows, complete questionnaires up to five times faster and proactively manage vendor risk to help your team not only get compliant, but stay compliant. So stop stressing over cybersecurity and start focusing on growing your business in 2025. Check out Vanta and let them handle the tough stuff. Head to vanta.com forward slash the times tech to learn more.

Because when it comes to your business, it's not just about keeping the lights on. It's about keeping everything secure.

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