Darryl Cooper: The True History of the Jonestown Cult, WWII, and How Winston Churchill Ruined Europe
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So sometimes I think to myself, if why are current events so unclear to so many people? And I always go back to the question of history, you can really understand what happening right now unless you understand what has happened before. You certainly can't plan a coherent future unless you understand.

I think, why do people know so much so little about history? Policies is not taught. And then six, ten, thirty that is taught. And say, airport book store res, you are popular historians people like john mitchum and Michael bash loss and Doris turns goodwin and an apple bomb, you know namely sort of the dumas people in the country was no most of them um but also completely designed st political actors and so I think I just wanna I can tell you you hate compliments.

But I just want to say I think you are the most important popular historian working in the next states today you work in a different medium on substate x podcast um but i'm a fan of yours because of the way you treat history, which is with relentless curiosity and honesty and i'm sure you have all kinds of political police for religious beliefs for whatever. But I feel like you get to what you think is true based on really intense research. So I just for those people who aren't familiar who you are um I want people to know who you are and I want you to be uh widely recognized as the most important historian in the next states because I think that you are so that's my last compliment for our time together um I know that was exciting. Uh tell us some of um the stories we call the stories, but historical events that you have taken a really close look at recently.

So I decided to start with an easy one. Um I did twenty six hour series on the early history of sy ni m in the israeli palestinian conflict. Um whether that was naive or hubris, um IT turned out pretty well, yeah you know and I turned the reason I turned out well, I think and i've had time to really think about IT over the years. And I started IT in twenty fifteen, took me a few years to complete. But i've see hundreds of email from israeli is from jews around the world who are, you know, boosters of israel as well as palestinians and people around middle east and people who are critical of israeli, who all of them, on all sides of kind of told me that IT opened up at least opened up their perspective to the way the other side saw the world. Which is what I was going for you now um in all of my series.

something that I didn't really I think that what the series that you did on the formation of israel, I think, is regarded by honest people as the most honest most look, no access were being ground maybe ever done. Can you just tell people who aren't for that? What did IT take to produce that, he said, took a few years, but what did you do in .

preparation for IT? Well, it's funny actually, because when I first started IT, I didn't really know what when in making a podcast like that, right? So I have this experience where I started working on IT after I I read maybe like six books, because I only the series only goes up to one thousand nine hundred and thirty eight.

I did some follow up work on the more modern period. But this is up to the foundation of the state of israel. The lead up to that, right? That's so I only covered that part and so I didn't know if this was going to be a one episode thing, a two episode thing.

I start working on IT after I read about six books on that one hundred and forty eight period and i'm working on IT from maybe you know, quite a while taking my time because I was working for the department defense at the time. So I know side gig and I wasn't even a gig I didn't make any money from IT put on. And after a while, when I started to approach the end of that episode, this is months and months and months later, by now i've read twenty books, thirty books about that three hundred forty period.

A lot of the ten general topics and issues that that help Better, help you Better understand IT. And I went back, and I started going over what i'd created for that first episode. And I was so embarrassingly terrible where you look at IT, you like, this is not even that phrase, not even wrong.

It's like, this is not even IT was a nightmare read. And you realize, and I realize something at that point, I was like, I ve had, I started this. I read six books on this topic.

Six books is a lot, you know, on a single is countless topics that i've read a booker to on. And if you give me like an energy drink and let me go, i'll start partitioning for hours now. H, I know the feeling.

I read a book on the fear reserve once.

and so eventually I got to the point, I can't to all up one time, people keep asking me to put together a list. I can't put together a complete one because I just didn't keep is good at tracks as I should but I read over eighty whole books um parts of one hundred at least um and about when I count them up. But I could remember about a twelve thirty hundred academic papers in journal I D everything I could find only .

people in prison.

reddy books ah well, all people who were the department defense in their job, and tails spending eight to ten months a year going overseas by yourself, often with nothing to do in a country that nobody speaks your language. So um you know I I would go over to a work with one of our foreign ali zed, usually on the weapon systems that I specialized in. We go over there and we had worked during the day and most of the ministry defenced people, doesn't matter what country you go to, you go to israel, you can go to, uh, norway, you go to japan, korea. Only want to talk about is american gun culture and he said, an interesting is that .

or you knowledge on that topic.

I I wouldn't say i'm necessarily like technically knowledgeable like h my god not friends are but yeah in terms of you know i'm a hunter and i'm gonna educated gun winner you know um but .

I have friends who are real gun .

fair it's all um and so you know I would go overseas and spend my day work day working with them, training them, helping them with whatever was broken and needed upgrading, whatever we were doing over there. And sometimes I would like, I have eight to ten months a year overseas. I would be doing this by myself most of the time.

And so after the workday was done, this just me in my hotel with nothing really to do. And you know, I grew when I was growing up, I I can these up one time. And I was between kindergarten and twelve grade. I went like thirty five different schools, like I was changing schools.

sometimes every few months. So .

well, you know, one of the good habits I picked up from IT was this reading, because I get, you know, books or what game, sense of continuity from environment to environment to environment, right in the middle of book. And I moved to another school, and I have to adjust to that. But i'm still reading this book and IT sort of patches me over.

And that became sort of is the background reality of my life is I sort of moved around in this unpredictable way. Like for most of my early years, i'd still have this this thread that was coherent that I was following, you know, consistently. And so IT definitely helped with a sense of stability like that.

IT has implanted this idea that, you know, like I take refuge. E books, yes, if you know they, if i'm anxious, a lot of people, if they're anxious, they can set down, read a books, they can set dom books. They make my anxiety go away.

It's what they do for me. And so you know, i'm just a nerd is what i'm saying basically. And I had a lot of time to read books. And once I started really getting obsessed with the podcast, you know, I got to the point where I was waking up three hours early so that I could read and right and work on the podcast if I was in a meeting and we were waiting for the next speaker to come in. I was working on the podcast launch, I was working on the podcast evening, I was working on the podcast.

And I mean, became like a real obsession part, partly because, and he left to my own devices, I would read books and talking people about them that know if I had a trillion dollars and nothing to do with myself, I would want a whole library and a bunch of interesting people to talk to about these books that's what I do anyway right? And so I was never really work um but yeah that's i'm the way you do IT you know people who wanted do a lot of people I know who started doing history podcast or rather maybe not history but uh um not sort of conversation just um back and forth discussion podcast where they do research and they want to make a presentation and a lot of these guys who started back when I started twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen and you know my success up to this point is being kind of unique in the space. Not everybody wants to listen to a seven hour podcast on Jones, and by the way, that only the fifth out of seven episodes on the topic rates.

So that's not for everybody. And you know, they they asked me sometimes like how to why, how I do this, as well as you do IT in other people who are like aspiring pod casters have asked me that like you said, I don't like compliments and so I get shy when people ask me things like get Better time and you're going to object to this because you're a nice fellow and everything but like, i'm not that smart. I'm not that it's nothing like that I work on this.

You have to like if you want to do something like this, you have to be willing to get up a little early to use your one shower to. You've got to spend time in books. You've tt a read and read and then when you think you're read enough, you ve got to read some more. And because there's just there's so much out there like I said, that experience after I had read six books on just the prone thousand forty eight period of know the zionist israeli sin conflict story. And I knew nothing, doctor, I knew nothing like embarrassingly not worthy than nothing because, like, at least before I read this .

was the illusion of knowledge.

Before I had read the books, I would just be repeating to whatever I had heard, you know, Benjamin, in yahoo. Say, or somebody, whatever somebody like on T, V, I released what have just been repeating that this was worse. This was like the full midwood kind of me.

And you know, in production where, uh where you know enough to really embarrass yourself. And i'm glad that I sort of recognize at the time and I went back and like the whole thing didn't start IT for another year after that problem because I just realized that, you know I got ta get deeper into this. And as i've moved through uh, different topics over the years because I don't do in israeli palestine podcast to do history podcast, and um I choose topics based on um what I want to read about.

You know that's all IT is like usually when i'm working on one um something as i'm sort of getting into the second half finishing IT up but can see the finish line on the thing i'm working on. Now you'll get harder and harder to discipline myself to stay on that topic because there's something it's pulling me yeah and so it's like a feeling of relief for like I finish IT and now I can already know the next topic because I just emerged kind of naturally and I moved on to them sometimes that very, very different. I've done, like I said, of you know, thirty two hour series on the Jones town cold, which turned into I had you two thirty two hours on that.

I told the the story of know the people's two hours yet well, the reason for that and I didn't know this going in, I never know exactly how this is going unfold when i'm going in IT must it's like sometimes i'll do a single episode and I kind of know the story, but when I start a long series is going to take me a year and a half to put out every episode. I don't necessary know how it's onna turn out. And when you look at something like the Jones town cult, and for people who don't know um in one thousand nine seventy eight everybody served the phrase, uh, don't drink the cool right and that's what people know about Jones town basically is that Christ entity sometimes goes off the rails.

Don't drink the cool aid. Thousand people, uh you know nine hundred and sixteen people committed mass suicide and the jungle s of giono right at the direction of this of this preacher, jim Jones. That's the most people know about IT when you open any book about IT, even mainstream books about IT, which you know, again, most people don't keep to that point.

This won't be in any other documentaries for the most party. Uc, we open to lect page one or two of any book about IT. And the first thing you see is that seventy five percent of the people, they died out there, or afra americans.

yeah, black women from oakland.

from oakland. But if they were over forty or fifty years old, there weren't really any black people in OK until the second world war. So these were migrants who had come from the south is part of the great migration, right? And you'd think, like if seventy five percent of the people they died out there were mexican immigrants, first generation mexican, that wouldn't be a part of the story.

That would be like a, this story, like what is going on here, right? Not just how did this religious code get out of control and like you really need to understand that I never knew that I always knew about Jones town on the surface level but I I saw that like I have to understand this Better and so um you know I drew me like deep into the history of african american uh, life in amErica post post slavery and really, really deep into the great migration and the forces that drove IT, the experiences that african americans encountered when they got to the cities, the north and west, when they left the rural south. And you know, when I I get emotional and I think about the john's town story, I worked on that for a long time. I read literally every single book or thing that's been written about IT. And there's a lot of dock I think .

was ucs b had an interview here. I mean.

there's a lot out. Not only there, the F, B, I is a thousand hours of tapes from Jones town after the suicide and are available online. Listened to all of you and most of IT twice. Like, for months I had this guide sermons in my head.

I had there like back room midnight meetings where they are all going through struggle session screen at each other, beating each other up all of their recordings of these late night torchlight sessions that they would have, uh, out and Diana in the jungle. You know, if you watch most documentary about jone's town, it's all about the craziness of the last year, which is when they were raw, actually, in Jones town in ghana. These people been together for twenty years, and he started his first church in the one thousand nine hundred and fifties.

And this is a guy, jim Jones, who are, you know, in one thousand nine hundred and fifty three in indian applies, which was A K K K strong's hole at the time. You know, because of the second K K K was not really a southern anti black movement. IT was more of a midwest than northern urban anti, cafe anti.

And so our indian apple is was one of the strong holds. And he lived that we lived at the time. He's like a twenty three year old guy. He's born thirty nine, maybe twenty four years old.

Starting his first little method is church in this store front with folding chairs, you know, and he in his congregation are going out and boycott stores in one nine hundred and fifty three years before anybody heard of a bus boycott or anything like that. You know, with marton, with the king he's going after in doing that, getting death threats from K, K, K. Leaders, getting death threats from the american nazi party, trying to integrate these businesses, right? And so this is a true believer, like when IT comes as he his family, he adopted uh, the first african.

He was the first White family to adopting african american child in the history, the state of inDiana. And this was back in the fifties. And he was, you know, jim Jones had been hit by a bus in one thousand nine sixty two.

They moved out to, they moved out to the bay area in one thousand nine hundred sixty five. He would be remembered today as one of the early pioneers, the american civil rights movement. And like revealed for IT, he really would be right. And so I started to read about this stuff, and I and I realized that there was a theme that was starting to emerge in all of my podcast, for the most part, this is real palestine one. And this one, which is, here's this guy who really is an idea list.

And i'm not saying he didn't have pathologies, you know, that we're already inherent in there, although i'm very suspicious of accounts when whatever i'm reading a book about and all of the jim jone's biography are like this and you have to learn how to like read past IT um but you're reading a book about stolen and the author went and found and interviewed somebody who's in six grade with them or something and they are like, you know, he got tripped on the playground one time and stood up and said, i'll get revenge on all you one day and that's when I knew I just am very suspicious of all those stories, you know and so you have this guy who's a true idea list and he could be, you know, whether or not is his politics were correct or whether his, you know, was this guy, that's a question. He was an idea list that he really believe these things. He really did treat people in a way that in one thousand nine hundred and fifty three in amErica uh was uncommon you know and um and so you have this idea list, just like with the uh in the israeli palestinian uh conflict at the beginning, you read all the early account of the early zionists and it's all about it's just its soaring, retorted about returning to the holy land and is people who have really grand idealistic visions of what it's gonna like when they get down there.

And then people run into the rocks of reality and how we respond. That pressure um you know really defines the the the the destiny of a movement, the people in IT and they're always uh they're always gonna be people and sometimes entire movement that the pressure is up, you know turning them off uh the road completely you know and into a ravine that's kind what happened. So if you look at like the Jones janter, the reason I turned into thirty two hour series is I guess said they started in the one thousand nine fifties doing stuff that you would recognize uh, as just early civil, right stuff.

You know, boycott a local business to get him to integrate right around the time few years before. But like that Martin luther king was gna start that anything. And then see, you have Greens, barely have these things, and their trajectory as an organization, the people's temple, I realized, I mean, they that that trajectory from about fifty three to one thousand nine seventy eight, when everything came to an twenty five year trajectory, follows almost to the month.

I mean, IT is uncanny, like how perfectly follows. IT makes perfect sense because they have plugged in to if they were IT follows the trajectory of the civil rights in protest movement in amErica through its rise. IT speaks, its radical zone, and then its decline in late sixties and then into the seventies, into energy and death.

I mean, and IT is, I mean, it's almost the you can tell the story of Jones town and give a month by month account of that process of those protest movements being ratio zed in in turning to violence and insanity in the sixties and seventies. So IT became a vehicle for that. That's what that's what really the stories about. It's about that period of american history from the mid fifties up until about one thousand nine .

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I have specific contempt for all of those people just because, you know, IT wasn't just that when jim Jones was a power broker in san france eco that they would go give a speech at the church because they were trying to bring out votes or something um you know you had Angela Davis, you had hue and you had a lot of these other people who when these people were in Jones town and am gonna, remember a lot of the first of all, three hundred of those thousand or so people were kids.

Another three hundred to four hundred were people over like sixty years old. Okay, so you can I mean that he is out there. Two third, fully two thirds of the people who committed suicide out there were kids or senior citizens, right? And as they approaching this point of just maximum paranoia, maximum group psychosis down there, you and you listen to the recordings that that they left for us, and they're just getting increasingly to range.

They're certain that the CIA is gna calm and kidnapped their children and put him through brain washing. This is not just jim Jones and his Chrism telling these people. These people understood themselves as a revolutionary movement, and they were true believer s like they were true believer s these people, a lot of people like to say that at the end, IT was basically murder.

These people were forced to do this. These people were, for at least for the vast majority, if they, we're not forced to do IT, they believed in what they were doing and they they um jim Jones by that point was almost like a figure head of the movement, to be honest with he was the sort of a teacher of a leader. But the movement, the the the organization was running itself.

And you had a bunch true believers who were out there trying to start a revolution and start a new society in the jungle. And in the last few months, when they are approaching just maximum psychosis in paranoia, you've got like Angela Davis, huey newton, harvey milk, like a lot of me. And I think, might you got killed early after, who are literally calling in to Jones town and being put on the speaker for everybody to listen, saying, we know that, like, you know, the government is after you, and we just want you to know that we have your back in, you know, this is the whole world is coming after you.

But we're there for you were on your side is a bunch of people who are like approaching a crisis point of paranoid psychosis is going to lead to their mass death within a few months. And that's what these people are doing. Common, ancient feed into IT.

And you know, he makes me sick because you have people. And I know this wasn't maybe supposed to be just a Jones something, but this topic, again, like it's IT affected me a lot, right? That like there's this one woman, SHE, was the lead singer of the jone's town band.

And the night before, they all committed suicide. Leo ryan, the congressman, was there, and his on triage was there. They put on a performance.

and there's a video jacket spare became a member of .

congress yet and there's a video of 啊 that night know um in and they show a musical performance in this woman whose the lead singer and bank inductor is up there and she's in this african american woman， beautiful, great voice up their like really like confidently commanding the stage and like really an element right? Well, her back story was back in indian apples. And jim Jones, when his family had lived there, knew her when he was a little girl, just a little bit like her mom came to the church, sometimes something like that.

And after jim Jones and his people left you know he got abandoned by her mother SHE ended up um but being pumped out by her drug dealer boyfriend when he was fifteen sixteen years old and she's living her life on the streets being beat up by this guy who's forcing her to go out and and prostitute for him, you know and that's her life and now she's about twenty united suicide three or four times at this point and now she's twenty and the Jones town people make a trip back in inDiana because they would go around the country, in their buses and, you know, speak at churches and hold events and stuff. And so they go back there. And SHE just kind of knew who the Jones family was.

He said they treated her with kindness, and her mother with kindness when he was a little girl and she's in in the depth of of suicidal depression, drug addiction, you know uh close to the end right and um man, even in the podcasting ino's recordings IT makes me emotional because they got out there SHE SHE went there to the event when when the Jones town people came in because he just remembered that like these people have been kind of her fifteen years ago. You know, when he was a little girl so he came out to sea and jim john season immediately recognized her and IT starts talking to her just, you know, friendly, everything, the people. I start talking to her and he starts telling them kind of about how her life gone since that time.

And he said, oh, well, great. Oh he said, not great but he said, oh, will come with us up on the bus. Let's go like, we ve got to houses.

We have had a whole community out here like, you know, we can find a job for until you do something, whatever. Yeah, come on out. And so he did, he did. And SHE went out there and they cleaned up. They got her off drugs.

They took this broken, destroyed abuse woman and put her in an environment where in again, you have to understand that even this this psychotic movement in the way IT turned out this part was genuine. They put her into an environment where, uh, SHE felt like he belonged and IT really was. The people cared about her and he cared about the people there, you know.

And so SHE ends up being the band leader. She's like a super talented and uh, musician and she's writing the song. She's leading the practices for the man. She's a lead singer and everything and uh, no, and he died out there with all the rest of them, you know, with all the rest of those old people and kids and everybody else SHE um SHE committed to aside with everybody else the night after you see that video.

It's amazing that you watch that video. I mean, I don't think I want to see something like that.

I had to of course I had to um I like I have a rule and I broken this rule once and it's a probably episode i'm like least proud of maybe um although it's a lot of people's favorite episode um like I have a rule that I don't start a podcast til I feel like I can at least understand where everybody in this story is coming from. I didn't start the israel palestine podcast until I felt like I could see how designers saw things, how the arab saw things, how the british saw things, and how their behavior to each other made sense to them in the context of of their own world.

And I did the same thing with Jones town, which was a chAllenge because, I mean, talking about, you know, a psychotic c cold leader who, yes, who who dragged his people to their deaths, you know, the jungle, the meaningless death are literally people talk ker, who many hundreds of people, parents who were injecting sign into their baby's mouse, uh, and watching them froth and twitch until they were sure they were dead and then they could take the suicide and drink themselves because they had done that. This is almost thousand people. There was one woman who uh was in the capital SHE wasn't SHE was at their office in the capital SHE wasn't out of the um the actual compound and when SHE got the call like it's time we're doing IT SHE flash her kids throats and then stabbed herself in the heart I mean this is ah and yet these people love each other.

These people actually did believe like in equality. They believed in my human brotherhood, all these things. And SHE slashed her kids throat. And you, if you're gonna tell a story like that, you can do what all the biography of jim Jones do. You know? We'll talk about like these weird things about him as a kid s and something where IT was all there to beginning and he was just the the gradual on the gradual flowering and unfolding of the psychology is that are always been in there and all these other people just get sucked into a is just this total nonsense you really have to understand how people could get to a place like that where they were you know, everybody doesn't matter who you're talking about.

Ua, who saying, ah, there was a time and I always try to keep this in mind because, I mean, it's like it's one of the governing thoughts as I go through any of these stories who day who saying, Joseph stan, I don't care who you're talking about. There was a time where that was a little three year old kid that's right and they weren't evil. They weren't um who they became and so how did they become what they ended up being?

You know so I I think you are approaching this IT would just why I am so impressed by what you do and want more people to experience IT. Um you're approaching this from the most honest possible perspective and allowing readers, viewers, listers to come to their conclusions with the with the maximum amount of information which are not doing is using history as a weapon, a carduel um or as a kind of propaganda tool to make policy so in that you almost stand alone I would say right now.

uh, i'm really interested in the .

project that you're working on now i'm a little bit baffled by IT to answer my questions. So you are working on .

we were two.

which has to be even more than the Kennedy is association, the most written about event in human history I can think of one has occasion more books so um why .

were or two well uh you know I was giving a talk to uh a and on um a graduate history class, the university of ana a while back online giving him a talk and one of the things that I said to them and I was curious how this was gonna over in austria um but that seemed to go over all right as I told them over the next few decades.

Like look, any time you have a historical event for us in the united states, the civil rights movement, its world war two, and to a certain degree is still the civil war. Everything in between and before those things you can do whatever you want doesn't matter. You think that the russians were to blame for world war wan and not the germans.

You think that he was all british conspires. You can do what if you want. It's fine because that's not part of the founding mythology of the order that we're all living in at this time, right? Those other things are.

And whenever you have a historical event that is methodical, zed, and when I say that, I don't mean myth, like it's a myth. That's a lie. It's not I mean, I mean that it's it's a formative part of how we all understand the world brain, or at least officially like the official world, like the structures, structures we live in.

It's the justification for a lot of the structures, right? Whenever you have those things, you're gonna have taboos. You're going to have certain ways that certain topics have to be talked about that are going to guarantee that that that that topic is just profoundly misunderstood.

And I told the students at the university of vienna, I said over the next couple decades, I we're going to get to a point where the inner war period in the second world war are far in of a way that people can actually start taking a more honest look at everything that went on. And IT is going to be the most fruitful place at any inspiring historian can dive into because we spent the last seventy years, I mean, europe's case, like literally throwing people in jail for looking into the wrong corners, right? So there's so even .

particularly in australia.

and right?

And so even in the, I was the invaded country, so I am not exactly sure .

why it's so important and well, big topic, but i'm even the united states where where where you're not going to go to jail necessarily .

for the life and is .

your but you know for you could write a book. You could take any angle on you want you're not can ever get a job or have a publisher want to publish, but you could do IT. You go out on the street corner and stand on a box and say, whatever does you think uh, but even even still, you know that event is really it's it's such a core part of the state religion. But there are emotional triggers built in the people since childhood that almost prevent them from from taking an approach that would a that that might lead them to information, to conclusions that are not part of the state religions version of of that event. You know, in and again you're going to find that i'm sure the palestinian.

an wars were like that for the and greeks, the american revolution is now totally relevant to month america. For a was like that. The life of lincoln was like that lincoln was a very complicated guy.

It's not an endorsement of slavery. While speaking for myself, I think lab is dissing the first thing. If your thing is absolutely right, it's not just the second world war that is sort of uniquely sensor a protected the mythology around IT. It's every event is central to a nation's understanding of itself and then that changes over time. So do you think that we are far of way, eight years from that war where you can try to take as an objective a look you can and that will be allowed?

Um no, I don't. Um I think we've got a little little ways to go on that but I hope I can kind of start to break the ice a little bit you know because like here, here's the problem with doing something like that and this is something i'm very aware of. If I research IT and start to work on the project, is that when you have an apologize historical event that is told that is, I mean, again, you ve got to a lot of places in europe.

It's illegal requirement over here. It's not quite that, but I almost might as well be uh, where that that this event is going to be described from a certain perspective, you're going to approach to a certain way. Uh, there are just certain things, not a lot of question.

You have to little it's a crime to ask question rise.

Yes, whenever that's the case, when you try to add any type of baLance to that account, when you try to tell the story in a way that brings other approaches and other perspectives into IT, it's going to look like you're trying to justify those other things. That's just how it's going to seem to people who are very locked into this site.

And so if you started talking about the inner war period and how you are the VR culture, you know, after the first world war LED to something like, uh, the rise, the national socialist, and why the people who embrace that movement didn't embrace IT, in a way it's not just was because they were, yeah this country, germany is sophisticated cultural, uh, in a superpower that was fine. And then they alternated the demands for a few years and now they are fine. Again, like that sort of the official story in, I think deep down we all know that makes no sense.

Everything has a cause, you know, again, to go back, like woody, who saying, got to be good day, who saying, from that three year old little kid, jim Jones got to be jim Jones from b and that guy who is just an earnest local indian applies civil rights, uh, activist. They all got to be those people that LED to the chaos that they eventually invited into the world and onto themselves in their people, through their experiences in the world and through a series of decisions, decision points, that at the time, if you can, if you can, bring yourself to step into the shoes of those people. And it's not a comfortable thing to do. And I I literally listened to probably two thousand hours of jim john's is sermons and him screaming at as people and just going insane to the point where I was dreaming about this guy for months, I would have my headphones and as I was work and listening to jim Jones. And it's really hard yeah, I know the only .

guy the office doing that.

I think i'm probably the only person in the world is not that and so like and I got to the point where I felt like I knew this guy. I, I, I could notice from tape to tape, I would hear changes in his tone of voice and I knew whether he was, uh, high on infected me that day, or if he had taken his baritone already know you. I felt like I knew this guy. And their types, by the way, they're not all from like one year.

They're from like fifteen, twenty years, right? So you can you can watch this process of a of of a descent in the man is as a happening and you know to get to a point where you can bring yourself to step into the shoes of any other human being and understand that as much as you know is as much as IT makes you uncomfortable IT is just a human being and at the very, very like base level their motivations are the same as yours. Their needs are the same as yours.

Um but that were very were multivariate es that can go a lot of different direction is right and um and to be able to do that and force yourself to do IT is the key. So when you do something like that with, I mean again like A A historical event like world war two, where, I mean, the one rule is that you shall not do that. You shall not look at this topic and try to understand how the german saw the world, like, how the whole thing from the first world war on up to the very end of the war, how these people might have genuinely felt like they were the ones under attack, that they were the ones being victimized by their neighbor's m, by all these, by the outline powers, you know, and you can, you can handle that uh, with a sentence.

You know, you can waive IT off and say, well, you know, they are justifying themselves. They're rationalizing their evil or whatever you want to say again. And I think we're getting to the point where that's very unsatisfying for people.

Most of us will actually all of us go through a daily lives using all sorts of quote, free technology without paying attention to why it's quote free, who's paying for this and how. Think about IT for me. Think about your free email account, the free mechanical system used to chat with your friends, the free either weather APP or game APP.

You open up and never think about it's all free, but is IT no, it's not free. These companies are developing expensive products is giving him due because they love you. They're doing IT because their programs take all your information.

They who for up your data, private personal data and sell IT to data brokers and the government and all of those people who are not your friends are very interested in manipulating you and your personal political and financial decisions. It's scary as hell, and it's happening out in the open without anybody saying anything about IT. This is a huge problem, and we've been talking about this problem to our friend eric prince for years.

Someone needs to fix this. And he and his partners have and now where partners with them and their company is called unplug, it's not a software company. It's a hardware company.

Actually make a phone. The phone is called unplugged, and it's more than that. The purpose of the phone is to protect you from having your life stolen. Your data stolen is designed for a privacy. First perspective, it's got an Operating system that they made us called messenger or other apps to help you take charge of your personal data and prevent IT from getting passed around to data brokers and government agencies that will use IT to manipulate you, unplug game minutes to its customers.

They will promise you in the meaning that your data are not being sold or monetized or shared with anyone from basics like its custom libertas Operating system, which they wrote, which is designed from the very first day to keep your personal data on your device. IT also has believed IT on a true on off switch the shots off the power actually disconnect your battery and ensure that your microphone and your camera are turned off completely when you want them to be so that are spying on you and see your bedroom, which your iphone. Is that a fact? So IT is a great way, one of the few ways to actually protect yourself from big tech and big government to reclaim your personal privacy.

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Done more than unsatisfying. It's tradition shallow, of course.

on let me ardy interrupt but that's true. But every society as founding math, hundred percent and and you need them you know like I don't think they weren't necessarily Better off now that people are, uh, now that people are able to just freely tear down a statue orge washington, he was a slow on right. And so like there are sacred symbols and national that any group of people are going to need to hold themselves together.

And there's also super well knowing the truth about things. I mean, if when we finally find out how president Kennedy was murdered one thousand nine hundred sixty three, we finally find out what are these weird lights in the sky at night, we really get to the truth of that. Will we be Better off or not?

I mean of those are questions. I don't know the answer um but but let me just say what I completely agree with you particular any unifying math you know is important. I'm just highly distressed by the users to which the miss about war war too have been put in the context of marine foregone policy, particularly the world ukraine, and but not just the ukraine, many others.

You know, churches, the good guy, mel chamblin, the bad guy. You know, it's just it's too a pat. It's obviously uh, but I also was justified like the killing of millions of people since the end of the second reward and so I do think it's fair to ask like what what really was going on to one, for example and i'm american, i'm not english so I don't have any we're motive in asking this but how would you assess winston churchill?

Uh, I got in trouble with my podcast partner, jacko willink one time, because he's a new england dutchman who's his family is near dear their dutch, but very near and dear their heart, that winston churchill is a hero. Everyone, everyone thinks that he really thinks that.

And I told him that I think, and maybe i'm being a little little hyperbolic, maybe, but I told him, maybe trying to provoke him a little bit, that I thought church was the chief women of the second world war. Now he didn't kill the most people. He didn't commit the most atrocities. But I believe, and I am really thing, I think when you really get into IT and tell the story right and don't leave anything out, you see that he was primarily responsible for that war, becoming what I did, becoming something other than an invasion, al opponent, or just I me at every step of the way, like people are very often I I find surprised to learn a two step process.

You make the make the case for that OK. You've made your statement. A lot of people, we're thinking away. The second, said churchill, my childhood hero, that go with the scar yeah.

well, in the next thought that comes their head. And is, is that oh, your saying churchill was the chief lin, therefore his enemies know IT off, hit, learn so forth, were stalling the protagonist, right? There are the good guys if you think he's a villain that's not the case is not i'm saying, you know germany, look, they they put themselves into a into a position and IT all filters chiefly responsible for this, but is always game is responsible when they went into the east in one thousand nine and forty one, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were gonna have to handle the winning with no plan for that.

And they just threw these people into camps, and millions of people ended up dead there. You know, you have you have like letters as early as july, August nineteen forty one from comment dance of these makeshift camps that they're setting up for these millions of people who are surrendering or people are rounding and there. So it's two months after a month or two after the barber rocha was launched, and they're writing back to the high command in britain saying, we can feed these people.

We don't have the food to feed these people. And one of them actually says, rather than wait for them all the slowly start of this winter wouldn't IT be more humane to just finish them off quickly now. And so this is like two months into the invasion, right? And like mike view on this, no, I argue with my zest, uh, interlocution about this all the time with regard to the current warm goza book, man, like maybe you as the, you know, the germans, you felt like you had to in invade to the east.

Maybe you thought that stone was such a thread, or that if he wants a surprise attack and seized the oil fields in romania, that you would now not have the fuel to actually respond and you'd be crippled, none of europe would be under threat. And whatever was whatever IT was that like, maybe you thought you had to do that, but at the end of the day, you launched that war with no plan to care for the millions and millions of civilians and prisoners of war that we're going to come under your control and millions of people die because of that, right? And you can look at this and say like, um you know there well yes so get back.

You're like your main question about churchill. You if you go to a one thousand and thirty nine when the germans in the soviet union in vade point, as soon as that wars wrapped up on the german side, hor starts fire and off peace proposals to britain, france, because they declare war. He was, he didn't expect them to declare war. Actually is a, you know, famous scene where he can't rose a fit when he finds out that they actually did, they did do that. And so he doesn't want to fight france.

He doesn't want to fight britain, feels that's onna weak in europe um when we've got this huge threat to the east, the communist thread over there and he starts firing on peace proposals, he says let's not do this like we can do this and of course, year goes by, nineteen forty comes around and they're still at war so he launched his invasion to the west, takes over france, takes over western and northern europe. Once that's done, the british have, uh you know a escaped dn kirk. There's no british force left on the continent. There is no opposing force left on the, in other words, the war is over and the germans won.

Okay, but by what point?

H for one thousand, nine and forty, right? So there's just there's literally no opposing force on on the continent.

And throughout that summer, IT don't fit lurs firing of radio broadcast, giving speeches, literally sending planes over to drop leaflets over london and other british cities, trying to get the message to these people that germany does not want to fight you, we don't want to fight you, offering peace proposals that, you know, I said, you keep all your overseas colonies. We don't want that. We want britain to be strong. The world needs britain be strong, you know, especially as we face this communism and so forth like this, this, what's going on.

And I think that if there were people in britain who uh if they hadn't put in this way, they hadn't been so successful deal legitimizing uh the piece approach by demonizing level chAmber so forth and holding him responsible for the invasion of poland um that people would have been they would have understand, stood like we don't need another a repeat to the first world war now, which is not what ended up happening, but that's where everybody thought was going to happen and so churchill, I mean, you have a guy. S churchill wanted to war. He wanted to fight germany.

Uh, in the reason that I I don't begging that, you know, people can come, national leaders, you can fight who everyone, if you know, if you feel like your long term, the long term rest of the british empire was threatened by the rise of a powerful continental powerful like germany. And you need to check up that those are great power games, and you place the way you feel like you need to point. That's fine.

The reason I resent churches so much for IT, he said he kept this war going when he had no way, he had no way to go back and fight this, where all he had were bombers. He was literally, by nineteen forty, sending firebomb fleet, sending bomber fleets to go fire bomb the black forest, just to burn down sections of the like forest, just just rank terrorism, you know, going through and, uh, starting to, you know what? Eventually became just a carpet bombing, saturation bombing of civilian neighborhood, you know, to kill as the purpose of which was to kill as many civilians as possible. And all the men were out in the field, all the fighting edge men were out in the field. And so this is old people as women and children, and they knew that, and they were wiping these places out as gigg antic scale terrorist attacks, the greatest, you know, scale of terrorist attacks you ve ever seen in world history.

Why would he do that?

Because IT was the only means that they had to continue you fighting at the time. You know, they didn't have the ability to reinvent e europe. And so he needed to keep this war going until he accomplish what is, you know what he, what he hope to accomplish, me know.

Now there is actually a really great series of books. Is is one of the best I recommend. Everybody was really expensive now. And i'm its six long volumes called history of british special Operations in the second world war.

And one of the books gets into the level of a just the extent of media Operations, propaganda Operations, everything that they were running in the united states to eventually drag us into that war. And that was his whole plan. His whole plan was, we don't, we don't have a way to fight this war ourselves.

This war is over. We need these, the soviet union or the united states, to do IT for us. And that was the plan and kept the war going long enough for that plan to come. Definition to me, that's just it's a ugly wait up to fight war.

And what was the motive?

Um well, you know churches got a long, complicated history. I mean, he's you know he somebody .

who that that was the ridest smile I think i've .

ever seen um well, look, I think on one level there is a sense that church was sort of humiliated by his performance in the first world war, the head of the animali. And he was out in the cold for a long time. Melia, yeah.

And which there was his Operation yeah, no. And so he was rightly held responsible for that and seen is responsible for one of the great disasters that the british suffer during that war. And so I think part of IT is probably kind of personal, you know, he wanted redemption. He wanted to go out there. And I prove that he's the the war law that they can go out there and and fight this big war. Um probably I think part of IT I like I read about churchill and strikes me as a psychopath um but he's also a sort of he was a drunk he was very child dish and strange ways people would talk about how as an adult like at you know as prime minister, they find him in his room and is like playing with action figures like war toys and army men and stuff and we get mad when people would would interpret them know when he was doing this this is a strange, strange fellow so you know there's all those things um but then you get into um you know why was why was once viral such a touch a dedicated booster of zinn's m from early on in his life right and there's ideological reasons.

Uh you know nineteen twenty he wrote a kind of infamous now article called zionism versus bulk vsm and he basically a makes the case that which was which was true to a large extent that the all of eastern europe, the palace settled, which is where the vast majority of jews lived, other than the united states, which is where a lot of them had had travelled to um that that area had been had become so engulf by a revolutionary spirit that all of the the Young hani juice who were over there we're getting swept up into was the sixties here on steroids right in a much more serious and ended up being destructive way. And this is one thousand and twenty. So this is shortly after the balls with revolution.

Basically the point of his paper is, he says, these people who over there, they're all going one direction of the other. They gonna be bulch x, they're going to be sinus. We want him to be silents, you know? So we need to support this. And so that was really on. There is ideological component, David.

But then as time goes on, you know, you read stories about churchill going bankrupt, needing money, getting bailed out by people who shared his interests, uh you know, in terms of sign ism but also uh, his hostility just just you know I think his hostility to put in this way, I think his hostility to germany was real um I don't think that he necessarily had to be bribe to have that feeling um but you know, I think he was to an extent put in place by by people, the finance years by a media complex that wanted to make sure that he was the guy who you know who who was representing britain in that conflict for the fur reason and you know church say again it's so hard because like especially in a short interview like this where um you have this guy who I mean he's he's enable ham lincoln, George washington mart muser king like type figure in in the sort of western conscious right yes. And so people have so many assumptions in built and triggers like when IT comes to this guy, that is hard to talk about because you're always thinking about the triggers that you're setting off in your listeners. And I don't say that a way of like, I don't want to end anybody ever and you know you know that things are gonna misunderstood. And so this is why I do thirty hour pog gas.

Well, it's just it's interesting, as I you know, as a follower of your work, I don't see you as hostel to the west.

I see you actually the product to the west and is a defenders really of western values you know in your approach, you in your open mindless rig beliefs in accuracy and on esty mails or western notions uh and yet churchill has been positioned and has been a really as accepted as like the defender of the west over the last hundred years now. And so maybe that, and I wonder why that is. I don't I mean, people can certainly take issue with any factual claims are making. I assume they're over the consistent with what I think I know to be true um but why do you think churchill has been presented in a way in the way that he has what .

he has to do with what you said earlier, right? Uh, navel chAmber in versus churchill has been the binary model that has served as the the chief retorted device for every conflict we ve wanted to get into since then. Yes, you know the entire cold war and then even after the cold war, in the global war on tair is he appears them your navel chamblin hitlers the, uh, rather churches.

The one who saw all where this was headed was trying to warn people this in oksana. And finally, because nobody listen to him, the war ended up breaking out. And we were forced till I go stamp out this thread. And now it's a much bigger threat than IT never what .

we had angled IT in its crib .

and it's justified every conflict uh no really since the second world war everybody's the new hitler, right it's um and so that it's it's very valuable in that sense.

But then also you know IT really did become the the the founding mess of the of the global order that were all living in now, right? Because when you think about IT, if you go back to, I think about leg in mucky, is the prince right? He he starts that book out, kind of talking about wise writing this book. And one of the things that he says, and there is, you know, italy is a bunch of broken up little principalities and other states and staff, and he's looking over to the west in the north and saying, countries like spain, countries like france and england who like these are countries that are now turn Operate on a totally different scale.

like on a nil um .

and we have got to get to get to get our act together and start learning how to act on that on that level as well. And so that's why i'm writing this book and instruction menu I can call the action kind of well, as that goes on in the nation state starts to put itself together in in the modern area.

You know you you get the world war one and you you think about what the nation status right like history to a large c extent to sort of global event style history is gover to to a great degree by a the military technology is prevalent a given time, right? So I I don't think it's it's an accident, for example, that the the ancient greeks had like in a feeling of like citizen equality. Um there was unprecedented the world at the time and they had their chief combat system was the fAiling unit right that required every man to stand by his know his fellow citizen as a unit and they yes, what their uh position in the world depended on people being able to do that.

I don't think that's a mistake, right? I don't think it's a mistake. When you look at other societies where, uh, Cherry ot tears, you know, really expensive brunch, Cherry otz. Or when when you get to like a the hymie dle ages where the heavy horse cavalry is just totally dominant on the battle field.

But you know so only the people who can afford that kind of a web system, they're the ones who are going to rule on the people who don't like IT. They really don't have any means to um you know sort of express on their own a political will. And so as an asian state starts to get put together, you start to have you start to have military uh conflicts and just military build ups on a scale that nobody is ever heard of before. I am you're talking, you get to the the first world war I an millions and millions of men. And if you want to Operate on that level, if you want to Operate on the level of great game, global politics, you gona be able to put an army of several million men in the field, you know and that is why countries who tried their hand that uh and imperialism like the dog and the belgians, eventually they were just, you know yeah we're not doing IT and um because they saw that and so you know, when you look at the first world war and the second world war, but really the first world war is like the apotheosis of the nation state and a lot of ways you have you if you think back to like an old king in the early modern period, even not forget about that, looked like Louis the fourteen, the sun king, right, powerful as any monarch in europe, like for hundreds of years. His actual ability to reach in the local affairs of some village and tell people how to what think.

very limited.

very limited. Like we think, you know, because of movie is in in T, V, that a monarch is sitting on his throne and he just orter this. And that happens like god saying let there be light or something had him, yes, and just they didn't have that kind of reach. You know they had influence and they but they had by gaining modern uh, individual politician, they had to work through existing structures and systems to get their will actually Carried out and that men making compromises and they just didn't have the resources to like you know, technological resources, but also just human and financial resources to get down to the granular level of control that would become common when with the rise of the nation states.

So you get up to the point where when the nation's face, often world war one, and you have countries that, I mean, when you look at the the the level of efficient mobilization towards single cause, you know, fighting the war, how the economy, how the government, everybody was on the same page, and know they were fighting this war as whole societies, like figured out away that they could do with with the fourteen, you can never dream up. They could mobilize their whole society for war. And that was what you had to do if you wanted to compete on the level of germany and france and so forth.

And so what somebody like churchills in the first world war, and probably actually the second world war as well, most people, I think, players in the second world war, what they thought they were doing was that this was a war between nation states. I wore won and so and so forth and he was not that we found out afterwards IT was not that that there were two, uh, great military land empires, multi ethnic, multi racial, a multicultural military land empire, the soviet union, united states. That and when I say empire, obviously like we don't think of the U.

S. P. World war two in that way very much, but you know we didn't start out with a whole content and under our control, right we started out as thirteen colonies. We grow through uh a confrontation worth and uh centuries long race war against the natives.

Mean that's that's really there was a formative experience of of of amErica in in its early history and so it's an empire in a way you know not the way we Normally like. So like the british empire, but I think you can call IT that. And in these two countries I think that mucky valley was noticing when he's looking over its spain.

In france you actually had like germany for example, there is this idea that the only reason that they did molotov rubin drop was because you know hitler needed to buy time so he could eventually invade the union later. Something like that um not exactly true. I mean that obviously was talking about the eventual conflict with the soviet union very early in his career that was there.

But by the time you get up to like one thousand hundred and thirty nine, his views are starting to become more complicated on IT, where he starting to see the united states as the chief, the real chief threat to not just to germany, but to europe, because he saw himself as the sort of european defenders masa guy, right? So, and he looks over a joke of stolen and says, in a lot of these people kind of thought this way, that this is not an international communist movement anymore, like, yes, rosky has been banned, vanish from the country, and his followers are all dead. Know they were killed during the purchase of the late thirty.

These people are all are all gone. Those are all of the people who, you know, from the very beginning after the first world war, they saw russia as the the fountain head of world revolution. And stan, he he never quite gave that up. You know, just like the united states, he saw IT as his uh as his duty to build up ideologically aligned allies and so forth.

But if you really look at what happened in a lot of the german thought this way stolen, what he did was kind of turn the soviet union like a national socialist nation state, really, you know, kind of brought back the russian empire, and now it's called communist and stuff. But there's no goal to just set off global revolution. And then once that happens, the chips of followers, follower.

they may, they kept inside the cramlin, they kept all the paintings of same George, the paint tane of russia, or the crosses, say, the whole stone .

there are there. And I, I mean, have nothing good to say about stone.

I don't know either, but I don't I don't think it's been missing vertie all bit.

Yeah and earlier when I said that there's one episode that I have done where I feel like I didn't do, forced myself to understand the perspective of the perpetrators. IT was the one that I did about the soviet conquest of eastern europe after the second world war, and what they did in germany, in other places, and specifically romania, which is far as I can tell, like so far after one thirty years of reading history books, is pretty much the worst thing that ever happened.

Um these these prison experiments that they ran in pedestal and other places in romania after the second world war, or there is no family listening if you really want to do the yeah the soviet advisors where there was Carried out technically by the security and in the romanians themselves but um but you know this was a IT was a programme being run from moscow, right and it's whatever you thinking IT is out there. Whoever is listening and watching this is a thousand times worse and I wouldn't recommend going and listening to my episode the anti humans um unless unless you're prepared for that. So I just sleep IT at that. But i'll say like in that one, like I just couldn't I couldn't bring myself to put I could not put myself in the shoes of uh of the people who were doing those things and I didn't really try and IT comes across much more political than any of my other work. A lot of people love IT because he does you know expose a lot of the crimes that happened during that pear and stuff.

But I think i'd think it's hard sometimes i'll take one thing is i'm not a stone expert on speak dressing, but I have red of us still my whole life.

And one thing that I was very surprised to learn IT came out right after the um everything collapsed and nine one and british storia um russian speaker got access to a lot of the stolen archives, the personal archives, and I was aimed to read in this book called the reds are amazing book that is a great bit, is a great work, but the thing that IT overturned them and older. So maybe you always growing up, we did, everyone thought stolen. Was this bloodless technocrat not a true believer at all? That was, london was certainly trust.

key. See, like a true believer. Zv f can know all the guys around my problem, but he was not. And you learn in rena, so he was actually a devote like a religious level communist, which either makes him more repulsive or less depending.

I know, I know you, I can see IT from other side, but it's definitely not what we thought he was in what I loved about that was your view of something is a small thing, I guess, for most people who was big thing for me or not, but your whole kind of accepted view of something can turn out to be utterly false, like a lot of history is just completely fake. And so when you see someone who's diving in face first with like courage and honesty, you just have to a plot. That's why just apply, can't wait to find out what you conclude.

We wanna know something big that we've been working on for months now. It's a documentary series called the art of the surge. It's all behind the scene footage shot by an embedded team that has never before seen footage of what I S actually like to run for president if you're Donald trump. They were there at the Butler er township assassination attempt, for example. And god put IT no one has ever seen before, and it's amazing become, remember IT tucker cross in dot com to see this series art of the surge.

Where are you, by the way, in this process?

Well, i'm currently working on a series about are probably going to do two more episode. It's on IT on the history of the american labor movement. It's not it's not a narrative history of the entire labor movement.

I pick certain episode des I talk about the battle of blair mountain and episode um do one on the the haymarket affair and really it's about the industrial wars of the late eighteen century from you know pitch bury to chicago and everything up. I did one on, uh, this nineteen sixty eight teacher's uh, union strike in new york city that's kind of famous, now famous ocean hill Browns fill. And you know, that was one.

A lot of my research for the Jones count podcast about the great migration of afro americans out of the south came in really handy um because really what it's about is he was a conflict in uh the new york's political system like the senator or around a school in broke in um at a time when you know seventy five percent of the teachers in new york city were jewish and know new york is is such an interesting city for the for the fact that t no, it's obviously this this multi ethnic, multi cultural city that over the years just you know where everybody washed up for the most part on our shores and from the irish migration to the jewish and italian migrations and everybody that came after that there there was conflict and people had to figure out and eventually come to a settlement, like how we are going to live here together and all feel like we are being represented and so forth and so you had the city warm again today that sounds almost ah IT sounds like a different world in some ways where, you know, the teachers were pretty much all juice, the transit workers prety much all irish. The cops were mostly irish. The fireman were most only irish, most of the construction trade. The dark worker seems like that they were all italians, and everybody kind .

of IT wasn't something like that.

What they gravitated of economics and they had certain neighborhoods that were theirs. And people kind of knew that is not like a, you know, you couldn't move in to an italian neighbor device first or something um but everybody knew this was an italian neighborhood and he was going to stay that way. And they had all kind of come to this settlement in a natural way like IT.

Just there was an emerging order that came over the years and when and again there was conflicted every stage of that um after the one thousand twenty four immigration law that essentially cut off european immigration and and generally your immigration in general um the cheap also a labor of industry turned to our african americans from the south and he saw the course about forty or fifty years, about six or seven million and african americans move out the world's south to the northern western cities and IT turned out when they got up there they did a lot of the same problems the dad had previously um but for in a various reasons I I think personally the fact that uh we were in the post second world war period and we were in the medal of cold war um that you know the the process of integrating these people into the system as one of several um you know because this was a great dream if you read um what's what's the book uh anything glaser and it's beyond melting point know that he wrote and um I think they were at one thousand nine hundred and seventy one and what they predicted in that book is morning having glazer s IT was and they predicted in that book that yeah is a lot of problems right now in the grating african american portal ican populations into into the city. But what we're going to do eventually, this is always happens, happened in the past. eventually.

It's not gonna be black and White like IT seems right now. It's going to be italian and jewish port region and black. And so they are going to take their place as one of the ethnicities like in the sort of urban uh, political structure and social structure we have when they look back on IT and I think was maybe a twenty twelve of edition and they sort of recognized that that was obviously you know a prediction that did not come true. Um if they you know they started, they get into that and so um but .

this the teacher strike um no right this .

sorry of nineteen .

sixty eight what was like first, all I was, at least in my reading of IT, one of the pretty rare expressions of mass in open anti emetic. Sm, of course, but but but like for real in american history that doesn't seem to be remembered for some reason.

No it's it's remembered or mr remembered like red along the rock high because you know it's one of those things. Look I I live for a long time in los Angeles, right um you to live in south L A when those role black neighborhood there and people think back to the rodney king riots when they were watched in the fresh principal air, something he would go visit his friends down in content.

And those with the black neighborhoods down there, those are not black neighborhood, those are all the tino neighborhoods. And that transition was not accomplish peacefully you know there were and there are there are good studies and write ups about this um hundreds and hundreds of random murders of black people by maxi gangs, fire bombings of apartment buildings up to drive these people out. Right now you look at .

some drive the mist that's .

kind you know if you look at all the big cities in california, even like get up in oakland stuff, they're all losing their black population. And the great migration out of the south to the cities is actually in reverse right now. A lot like net afra americans are moving back to the .

south and here into the new employee, just like away from the coast.

And that's right. That's what i'm like a lot of, but it's a step by step process and they get Priced out of oakland and same from eco and they moved to stock in and then those places go up to and they end up moving you further inland. And that's a process been going on for a long time.

But like you look at what happened in in los Angeles, something again, you're talking about hundreds and hundreds of and murdie bombings, just not of other gangs members or something. I am talking about drive buys of other gang members. I'm talking about just a random black guy race killing me, killing people because .

of the color are killed.

And of those people who you know who are doing that, we're wearing White hoods. They would call the U. S. Marines and and for good reason. But it's one of those things that nobody wants to talk about because they fit easily and to one of our easy political. So that's what bothers .

me about the recording of history. I know I think IT, what happens matters. Reality matters. And if you find that sort of everything that happens not just eighty years ago in resident, but things that are happening like L I. Twenty years ago, if they just disappear, here are some kids getting find my google like that's a level of manipulation that's like that just mind control. But that's really scary .

yeah I think the propaganda is throughout the twenties th century, uh, ever since the sort of the rise of mass media really understood that that's exactly what IT is.

No, especially once IT goes on for a generation or two and kids are raised up, uh, and this is what they're being tired, because IT IT IT is IT IT forms to them, uh, there there not just their view, the world, but their view themselves like our identities as individuals and our identities that we attach ourselves to collectively, all the result of the stories we tell ourselves. And then we hear what we're growing up. And if you change those stories, all of those things change as well.

okay. So that's a perfect safe way to something on this. I'm just itching to talk to about, itching to get your view on and at least back to churches and churches is great heroes defender the west, savor of the west, the toughest man in the in world history.

The only reason or not speaking german and he won the second world war like that's what does anybody that's just effect. And yet if I go to his country like regularly and it's you know what doesn't really even exist in any recognized, it's totally degraded. I try not together because it's so depressing, it's just so sad, it's so broken.

It's not the country a Victors. It's it's a defeated, completely defeated country that subsequently been invaded. Um and so how like how did that happen? How did I go to japan? And its full prospect in order and planning is like IT doesn't like IT lost is .

like what is that? I think we ran a we ran an experiment, uh that tells us pretty well what that is. And we didn't know we're running the experiment at the time, but you had the iron curtain set up and all the countries behind IT that were not exposed to incessant american world order, western propaganda for seventy years.

Um they all they don't have the same problem. You gotten hungry. Even a place like poland which obviously the leadership class of any of these countries you always have to be suspicious of them .

because even romania, which is, you said for more than most countries.

yeah and so but those countries like, they don't mind. And again, the tippy top leadership class might be one thing. Know somebody went to the london school of economics.

are saving money.

The people have no problem saying, this is a country, this is hungry, this is a country for hungarians, this is a Christian country, this is our country. They don't have a problem saying that that is not something that anybody wants to. The iron curtain, for the most part, is comfortable listening up a little bit, thank god.

But you know, the question is whether IT is loose ends up too late. You go to a place like like britain, go to place like germany. I mean, there's no country in on planet earth that is has been a subjected to uh a more pervasive and destructive psychological warfare campaign in germany over the course of the cold war.

I mean these people have the very different I mean that you you really hope that is not the case. But you wonder if um if there is even the material that would be necessary to construct the psychological defense of their nation, their people and the lesson that we took from world war two. And again, this wouldn't been the lesson at any of our soldiers who storm the beaches and Normally would have take and really like that.

But you know, the official kind of court history lesson is that when europeans start thinking in terms of group, they're very dangerous. And that process needs to be several IT needs to be. Eventually eliminated like the possibility for that .

happened but just europeans, not asians .

or africans. Well um I you know I think well there's a lot of ways to that I mean part of IT is part of IT is the the people that were victimized um during the second world war were not victimized by, uh, africans. You know people were obviously chinese people were victimized by the japanese. But that's a different you know china is china's got a very powerful immune system that kind of preserves them as a as a as a culture and mean a bit. But from western .

expecting, I think it's fair, say our leaders make the case implicity. That is really only when europeans have a sense of themselves as europeans that the world is in peril, but everyone else is fine to do that.

Yeah I mean, you know that a they don't see those other people as a threat, you know either because the people who these narratives don't live in those places or they don't have historical experience with those people and so they don't see them as the same kind of threat.

Um so so germany is because totally self hating place.

it's a husk. Yeah it's depressing .

as hell though also wonderful in a way, but it's going away. But they lost, at least you can say they lost two world wars in a row. Britain, one, two world wars in a row.

And if anything, it's more degraded than germany. So like just to take IT back to the first thing I said and all shut up and let you answer. But if churchill is a hero, how come there british girls begging for drugs on the street of london and the places, you know, this is their room. The london is not majority english.

Now, like, what? Well, the people who formulated the version of history that considers virtually hero, they like london. The weight is now, you know.

And but that's not Victor. If that's like, the worst kind of defeat is that now I am just can .

to view an english person who cares about england and yeah absolutely is um I mean, it's it's forget about Victory. Defeat is the worst thing that can happen. You know if you look at what's going on over lately in in england where you're having riots, you're having these you know sort of budding violent confrontations between nationalists and the police and so forth, which um you know I think our natural we like order, right yeah like europeans, we like order order and we see things like that. We have a natural aversion to disorder to top street violence.

Yes, for sure we might be, you know, war might be necessary, but disorder, mob violence, things like that, like immediately make us kind of take a step back because most of our our experience, ed, with those things really bad in the end at the end of the day, like IT is an unleashing of evil spirits no matter what the cause you or the reason is. Um and yet when I look over there at what the british people, some of them are trying to do, I I I kind of I refuse to judge them for uh whatever for doing whatever is that they feel they have to do as their homeland, their ancient homeland, is being taken from them because that is not something that can be walk back, that is permanent. That is something that ends your existence as a people like once you're gonna be like the jews and, uh, you know, go off in the excel and sort of money to maintain yourself.

And even the juice understood that they needed a little spot somewhere on earth that was their special place to develop their culture and to work things, work out their history among themselves as a community of people. And the english people are having that taken from them. You know, the irish people.

Ireland is on track to be minority irish by like twenty seventy. And you say, okay, hang on. Like a anywhere colonized anybody b they were colonized and like, got really nasty, end of that. A lot of the time you have suffered a lot. They fought for hundreds of years against brutal uh, british attempts to try to bring them into the british fold and squash that unique ness you know that they had out there the british couldn't do IT and the british for a while .

there could do damn near anything.

Yeah okay. And we spend a lot of time trying to chief or to you and you will .

have a bit .

of a um skill view of the british empire just because there a lot of things that are glorious and wonderful about the british empire. E but united states like we don't quite understand like the way you know how bad IT was to fall on the wrong side of the empire because they really treated us with kid loves during the reputation of a parliament. That's what you.

they could have done to us. They created the concentration camp.

yes. yeah. And they ran a lot of during world war two, actually. That's another thing. It's actually pretty awful as yeah as soon as the war broke out, churchill had all of the german and italian nationals in great britain all rounded up and thrown into concentration camps where they would stay to the end of the war. This is one thousand nine hundred and thirty nine, and a huge number of those people were jewish refugees who had come over from germany to england, and they were surrounded up and throwing camps for six years.

And he also at the opposition party, thrown in prison for the duration ozora mostly and his wife and after giving birth, he spent the duration ation people died. Um that doesn't look like democracy to me.

Are you saying that zelenski is not running a democracy?

I I don't have elections and you're throwing prison and jail. If you're murdering people who disagree with you as he has, you call what if that's like basically a pretty constant form of government through history, it's fine. I mean, it's like less barbera that most forms of government actually through history democracy. So please don't let show me any more about that. Well.

I mean, we've seen in the united states even obviously a much smaller scale crisis um oh no maybe not maybe IT is an existential crisis for the people who are making the decisions but ever since sixteen, yeah where democracy is great, we love democracy. But that's for Normal times. It's not for world or two. It's not for when we've got insurrections going on and sometimes you've got ta take extraordinary measures that may not be democratic bites to preserve always the excuse .

and is the excuse of every IT was lincum exactly. But can I the. What's happened to a, the U. K. And ireland is not accidental. Is there any evidence that the people of those countries whose ancestors have lived there for thousand severe, or the indigenous peoples, those countries that they wanted this.

they wanted to be, I mean, certainly not the the majority of the people live there, right? Obviously, like you can go to any western country, the most just, you know, degraded, cut country you can possibly find in the west. In the majority of people there don't want any that happening to them.

This is something that has a class element to IT. IT has a as these countries have become more multi ethnic and multi cultural. IT has a ethnic no elements to his like like is a lot of things that create a sort of a class of people.

And it's class of people who have most of the influence in power. Actually, you want these things because they don't identify with the people who worry against IT on the ground. And this is something that, if you've know, we see in the united states, in the western general, that was budding already.

I mean, I would say personally, IT goes all the way back to the foundation. But like definitely you see in like the one thousand nine hundred and sixty, if you think of somebody like john lancy, right Johnson, he was the marine new york for a while, and he was sort of the quint essential heating, grow up like super rich old money. But he he was like that.

He was, though, was for hate. He was guy who limine liberal. The turn was invented for, yeah, yeah. And if you look at the way he conceived of himself and the way that he um in his class the people who supported in the eastern establishment types and people like him um where they sort of drew their own sense of self worth and their collective identity was first were Better than those White people in the south who are protesting martlett king and so forth were .

Better than them or the parents in south boston who .

don't want Better for their own then so as after the civil rights movement kind of came to a conclusion and uh in one hundred and sixty five in the great migration was starting to create a lot of conflict in the northern cities like new york um that idea the southern are they're always there is a foil for uh northern and western in identity construction but IT shifted to these ethnic groups that lift that lived in the cities the jews which sounds strange today that like a you know what smayle whose publicly obsessed with social justice would be against the jews and in in a conflict but he was at the time and IT was because of all these people.

The irish and the italians these people who think that like that's their neighborhood because it's been their neighborhood for one hundred years now. And you know that a everybody in the neighborhood goes to a parish church that um they've gone to their grandparents went to um they have internal social structures and uh dispute arbitration structures and all of these sort of organic institutions that that grew up from ground level that gave them an ability the self govern in a way that made IT. So they really like we're not as dependent on uh, the state bureau cracked to do these things for them, right? They could do a lot for themselves.

And um and these are the people who were this, you know the movement of african americans into their communities. When people look back, for example, like when mark the king one up to chicago, one thousand nine hundred sixty six, and there was the market park, right to this day, like you go, you have to go into a pretty deep, serious history book about that period to get the fact that know everybody sees that is is a bunch of White people who came out to protest, a bunch of black people moving, you know, trying to open up their neighborhood 啊。 But I wasn't a bunch of White people, those of lithuanian people.

I was a little noane, an and neighborhood that had been a lizana, an neighbor for some time. These are a bunch of people who had come over here as refugees and had set up a little community for themselves that they didn't want change. You know when, uh, that's a latino community with a bunch of art White art students moving into IT and gentrifying IT in brooklin or los, you know, people don't have a problem saying that they have a right to you know to to maintain this community that they've built for themselves and I actually kind of agree with that. Like when I see gentrification happening, it's like, you know um i'm sympathetic is a very.

very atha crime thing makes me inst i'm against crime, against hurting people you know strangers but the idea that people of all backgrounds races everybody, every human being has a right to like havoc social network around him and live the way he basically wants without bothering others and shouldn't be subject to you know abstract social planning that takes no account of human .

beings like yes.

yes, yes, i'm on this yeah no.

there is this very interesting well, actually that'll take me off on tent and I want to stick on the topic you were talking. You bring up like what's happening in england and ireland. And I think I think it's hard for a lot of americans to really understand uh, the tragedy of what's happening over there for the simple reason that and i'm i'm not trying to trivialize our struggles with similar issues here in the united states. I just say that they're that they're different that you know in the united states we've essentially had a unending demographic term oil from the very beginning, you know, we fought our revolution and within a generation, uh, most of the major cities in the east coast, where are all majority irish, and this was at a time when english and irish was in irish, was like, you know, these foreign foreign tables to each other, you know.

catholic and protest. That was still unresolved when .

I was within a generation of the revolution, most of the cities on the east coast of majority areas, or at least huge chunks of my super majority irish, even if the whole cities, not quite, not to mention a lot of germans, although the a simulated to the worst majority pretty well, pretty quickly.

But then within a generation of that, just as the iron is kind of start to move out of the slums a little bit and become middle class kind of members of the society, you start getting a ton of italians, a ton of jews, a ton of all the first southern, eastern eupeptic start coming in. And you see a repeat of the same process, a lot of the same problems. The institutions all start to break down. The schools break down, the infrastructure breaks down.

and they lame the people coming in because .

a lot of a violence, organized crime, revolutionary movements, all those things. I mean, people forget that a lot of lunching victims in the later and early one hundred hundreds were italians is a famous one in in new warnings but there are a lot of famous ones. And um so that happens and then we cut off off foreign immigration in nineteen twenty four.

Um but then we start the great migration of african americans out of the south. You have the okay migration and west from uh the dust ball you have the the the big hill Billy migrations out of ap alata up to detroit places. And um so we're just used to the like the fact that we are always renegotiating our identity here you know we were this this british former british colonies that just fought for our independence, but now we've got ta figure out how to construct the collective identity that includes all these irish people who came in.

And like one of the ways that we've done that traditionally has been to war. You know the fact that there were so many irish men who came into the country in on the side, the union in the civil war. If you look at like I mean world war two to a great, I mean music, think about the city of vicks burg, which didn't didn't celebrate the force of july after he was conquer during the civil war.

Like stopped celebrating the fourth july. And I remember I was watching uh uh the uh can bern's documentary about to mention this and he said they didn't they didn't celebrate the fourth of july again for like x number years and snow the top my eggs I don't remember exactly what year they were. H was sixty three fix per anyway um he said first x number years and I thought about for a second I was like I was july fourth in one thousand and forty four I was a month after the and that's what about this place that was extremely bitter over all this uh you know to raise the the flag and celebrate the forth of july.

And so we've used warm eighty years now .

and we've used warfare for that purpose. And that's not an uncommon thing. But it's it's it's one of the one of the means that we ve done to unify our people and as as in a wave afterwards of at the time, very foreign people. It's hard to explain to people today how foreign and eastern european jew was to a wasn irishman or a german american in new york in in, you know, eighteen eighty and these people might as well be coming out of the congo, you know, in in, in, in some ways even more foreign than that because all of us, like we're kind of, even if we've never met anybody from the congo just through mass media, everything, we've kind of got a more Cosmopolitan view.

The world, so or not, it's sort of familiar in a strange way, is your people are coming from all over the world and we've all, I mean, if you think about like the seven ninety eight naturalization actor, you see a lot of like White e identi an types. You point to that because IT says all people, all White people of good character can come into the united states to become citizens and I say, see, seventy, eighty eight like they're already thinking in terms of race and america's a White country and and so forth. And I say you don't understanding the historical context of of that of that law.

That's not to prevent you from bringing in like half of the african subcontinent, you know, the area population in the middle of whatever that inconceivable to guys in the anybody do that happen was not the of. And if you really look at the law, and you place IT in the context of its time, the context of europe at the time, member again, conflicts. And protestants, like the different people across europe, they've got two world wars still head of them.

They've got in a polonia war still ahead. They are going to be buttering each other for the next couple centuries, right? And we said, think about how just a revolutionary level of inclusive ity.

This is to say, all your europeans, anybody, you live in europe, and your protestant, your english, your virus, your catholic, your jewish, whatever. You come over here, and when you come over here, you will be accorded the full rights and privileges of a citizen. The same as the Richard guy in this country. That is a revolution. I mean, nobody ever heard of anything like that. I was unbelievably just open and inclusive in the reason that they said they limited IT to uh to free White people because they didn't want you know some southern state including their uh their slaves as uh citizens but not really including them and kind of gaming the federal system getting representation because they decide to say, oh, all of our native american population or there are citizens now but not really allowing them know in and so that's what they were trying to prevent like the idea of bringing in just you an overwhelming number of people from what became the third world was obviously the farthest from their minds because they couldn't conceive that anybody would do something like that.

And so but that's the point, is that this, even from the very beginning, there was a recognition that we need to be a radical open country, if for no other reason, the fact we've got a gigantic continent that we've got to go settle and build up, right? Because if we don't do IT and these european powers are circling like volts and they're going to do IT. And so we have to get out there and build this place up. And so know that required A A level of openness that has transformed the world.

And one of ways so it's just industry here said that the point at the time of of mass migration was to build the place up, clear the pointed that now .

was to tell the place now yeah and isn't an interesting how you know I I think the psychologist Carol Young said something like any quality and access becomes the opposite and and definitely you know that applies to inclusive ity your openness I was saying that like you know, in the because of that experience um of just constant demographic term oil. As soon as the great migration Petered out in like sixty literally the early sixties, we passed the heart seller immigration act and open up the flag gates to the third world that's the world that we're in now, right? So it's just been an unending wave after wave after wave of your neighbors, people you have to negotiate politically and a social collective identity with, or changing all the time.

And that's just sort of its built into the american understanding of themselves in our society's work and all of that like I would say that there's only maybe the only time the united states like really at least maybe like, uh, you could say right after the revolution but like that period, like from nineteen forty one, you know right around that a that that time up to maybe the mid fifties, when the great migration started to drive, uh, all the european ethnic out of the cities, into the suburbs and stuff like there was that period where we almost pulled off. We almost pulled off constructing a solid and sustainable national identity. Obviously the flying the only man ended up being that there was ten percent of the population we weren't really included in that the afa american population. And that became the sort of you, the wedge that allowed uh, people to be apart that project in the nineteen sixties.

And thank you for knowledge ing.

That was the point of the excise all right. You know again not to diminish uh you know especially after going through um you know the Jones town series and spending so much time reading about the history of afghans, americans in the country and and I and I grew up around in african american neighbor's mostly around different places. Um I am more sympathetic than most people who are as far right on a lot of political issues as I am to the plot of people who live in the get and I could not agree .

more but that's kind of the point that i'm making. If the point of the civil rights move was to um apply like people which I would be completely for then salma alama would be a great place so with Jackson, mississippi so with luck, arkansan all the kind of holy sites of that period and in fact they are all far worse than they were in thousand nine hundred and sixty. So like what was the point of that? Clearly if the point to be alone was to help back people again, I could kind of be before that.

But I mean the point of IT so there's two element. There's two answers that question really right. Uh one is there are people out there who absolutely saw IT as um a wedge issue to support revolution in one sensor another know a disintegration of the country. You saw this in the one thousand nine hundred sixty times walls written about a lot a lot of people have written about how you know remember back in two thousand and eight how when a obama to rise uh prominence and a lot of the older republicans were throw out he's a community organized or is a community none of the Younger people that just didn't land with Younger people at OK, they had no frame of reference for the sixty and seven stuff. Know what that meant that you literally had these vast government programs who are just handing out money to revolutionary organizations, the people who are going out and planning and organizing riots .

at city hall oh, one hundred eight person .

I get happened in new york like a group who was not like they got some funding through three different kind of you know, degrees of separation from some government program. They were literally just basically an agency of the new york city government. They were literally .

just fully funded.

Their leaders were and you that to and this group, when how the protest at at city hall invaded city hall, trashed the place in everything. And this is a government organization, so that's what people had in mind. And I didn't land with the Younger people I notice back then.

Um see you have those people you know you have the people who uh uh a columbia in the thousand nine hundred and sixty who wrote all the papers that LED new york and then other places to uh you know to embrace busting at schools and to embrace uh expansion of the welfare you know uh programs and they were very open about I think it's really crazy how these two professors in colombia who are sort of the like the expansion of welfare in new york under James linsey, was kind of their brain child. They wrote the paper in the articles about IT everything, and they were brought in his consultants once the decision was made. They're literally writing in their papers, if anybody a city hall had cared to read them. Anyone saying this is going to make poor people less poor, in fact, they directly say, what this is going to do is, is onna increase tension between the lower class, lower classes in the middle class, it's gonna drive a wedge because there's going to be like an unavoidable racial angle to this, because it's going to be transfering resources from the, you know, european ethnic groups in the city over the african americans important weekend. And this is all good because this is going to start to create attention that we need to even if even said .

they said that are out.

Yes they were wrote about IT in in um I can remember which magazines was at this point but was was like the atlantis or something he was like that promote magazine IT was like a summary of their academic findings, right? But in these are the guys who they were the imposed for the the expansion of the welfare programs in new york. They were brought in the city hall the like explain how to implement that.

They even say that an a positive benefit of this is, is going to make all of these people more dependent on the government. You know, it's going to make them worth. So I mean, you have that angle of IT, right? You have that side of things in those people who do.

They know what they're doing and they want to hear this down. I think that in a lot of ways they are the drivers of a lot of IT um but a lot of people are the the ones being a LED. A lot of them is just a lot of way people who use IT to .

feel good about themselves.

There's no no I and they don't they're able to instate themselves from the decisions in a way that you know this is again to take IT international again you go over to europe. Um it's kind of what's gone on is you're the leader of hungry I write the obama right now. I hear the letter of hungry.

If you're the leader of like germany, you're the leader of the great britain yeah like you we're still at the point where like you still not england, we're not but like where you still have to be german to like get elected. You know we can't like take IT so far yet that we've detached IT completely from like some illusion of of the fact that this is a nation state, that self governing, but really this is an international super class. You know that they identify much more laterally with people of their own class across borders and they do with the people in their own countries. And um you know that mentality is what makes this possible for them to do the things that they're doing to the people that they have power over.

So what at this point um you describe what's happening to europe as the worst thing, not just the U K. But maybe especially the U K. But also germany, spain, ireland. As you noticed really everything west of central group of hungry um is increasingly not european. So what does that trend continue or stop or what happens?

Wow, I mean, that's going to be up to the europeans. I don't I say this with them not without pride at all. But I think that I think that as long as the united states remains a dominant power in the world and the dominant power in european geopolitics in a lot of places like like germany, still significant factor in their domestic politics, think that we are very negative .

influence on that front。 I mean, it's so interesting to watch um a gool like an apple bomb become literally historical like shaking with region in the way that people know self control do when Victor orban says stuff like wall, you know I just don't want to admit like a million non hungarians in my country and .

they go they go crazy no I mean look at how they respond to somebody like orban and like they would .

color revolution that do in moderate kind of like a liberal and eight.

That's probably the only reason I don't try as they know that like his chief opposition is far to the right of him so they probably why .

they don't do IT but he's like the least extreme letter .

i've ever met yeah, it's funny. It's I I get a similar sense from mister putin in russia war. You know he's a hard man. You don't drag russia out of its state in the ninety nineties without being a hard man um but it's it's probably uh hoping for a little too much that whoever follows him up know if we were to do something that would end his rule that whatever would come next would .

be beneficial mp. Orban and putin, I can say this is my perception of all three of them is that none of them is particularly ideological um all three are pretty sincere nationalists not like craze ideological nationals but just sort of want to do the best for their country um none of them is like a religious not and none of them is like especially right wing. They are all in you know, in the nineteen and eighty four, five six context they would be sort of moderate, maybe conserve democrats, liberal republicans like there not they're not at all what people claim .

they are yeah well, I mean, you know, the post world war two or order is really defined by the fact that, hey, afternoon berg um IT really became effectively illegal in the west to be like genuinely right wing, the things we call right wing. I mean, it's all flavors of liberalism, basically. And like if you go back and read prewar conservative, prewar righting writers in in europe and like literally and want a places became illegal to be that way right here again, it's not quite illegal. But we have control mechanisms that almost .

us government said a lot of people to prison over the years.

There are politica lot. That's true, and that's like a defining aspect of the post for european in order, right? And as long as that order remains in place and remains a dominant factor, is can be very hard for them to escape this cycle.

And I want to be clear, too, and I say, like that is the worst thing that can happen. I don't mean that will now you have to live next to these people don't look like you are who you know speak differently, has something to do with that. You know, we talking about the people. And again, this is why I spend some more time on on why it's harder for americans to kind of really understand this is because of our historical experience with this demographic turn over, right?

We kind of have this idea even though we're being pushed our limits right now know you really certain in to see that because of the um the ideological forces um and the cultural forces that are making IT much, much harder to swallowing digest the current a the current crop of a new immigrants since nineteen sixty five. Much harder to mult for various reasons so we're approaching our limit here but still we still have this kind of idea in amErica that you know yeah these things gonna happen and then will figure that out and renegotiate and kind of amErica will yeah will be different but you know, in another generation or two more change, you will be happening. And that's just, you know, the dynamic of the united states.

And so we always have the sort of feeling that terms of our collective identity that will figure that out. You go to a place like any european nation where this is this is a people's ancient homeland. There's actually such thing as, you know, an english man, there's such thing is that like there's you an an american is something that again, the definition of a changes with every generation, and it's always been that way, the definition of an english man is never changed, and I never will change. And those people, the english people.

not for over a thousand years, not sense, ten, sixty six.

right? And so in those people are going there in the process right now, a forever losing the only spot land they have on this earth that is dedicated to the flowering and the preservation of the english people like the only look in its a tiny little spot they're true .

for the dutch, true for the spanner, true for the germans, true for the belgians it's true for every western european nation. So why not have a non burg trial for the people who did that? I don't understand. I mean.

that's such a crime. Well, we have to win first.

Yeah, but I just it's important to say, I wow, that's a crime is against .

lions of .

people .

you go back to again to bring up like lue, the fourteen or any powerful monarch. They never would have dared imagine that they could do that to their people without getting their head cut off.

They wouldn't have dared imagine that they could just replace their people with, you know, people from a different continent, different religion, different land, just to overwhelm them, to make their own people minority in in that country, for whatever reason. ideological. You can know, whatever was they just, they would they, they would imagine that they had the the right, the power, the able to do that.

You know that I said somebody yesterday and we were are having dinner, that I would probably feel somewhat differently about this if IT was a situation where, you know, over the last eight generations of english people, of british people, that they had just sort of like gradually brought people in from around the world, and over the course of two hundred years, for three hundred years, they had just transform the democracy of their island and into something unrecognizable. Because you could look at that and say, well, you know, I don't necessarily think that's the best idea for them or you know I don't like the changes that are being made but hate the english people. They made this decision over the course of two.

exactly. It's like their food. I I won't their food is disgusting.

but they like IT, and that's okay. But this one generation decided that they had no responsibility to any of the people who came before them, and they have no responsibility to any other people who are coming after them. They are going to permanently, radically, irreparably transform their society in ways that they know her. The majority of the population they've immunize themselves from, you know, at present, but did they know, are not welcome and are harmful to the majority of the people that they rule over. And one generation of people decided that they had the right to do that.

And then is the post world generation. It's the generation born in one thousand and forty six between one thousand six, one hundred and sixty four that you did that. So it's hard to escape the obvious conclusion. And I suspected part of was driving a current project that that war didn't just read, draw borders, but IT IT changed the world in ways that are still unfolding. And that, like profound nature, are only now beginning to appreciate.

Is that right? sure. Am a big fan of the writer in azure. R right. He talks about, he said, this whole big theory about the origin of human religion and uh, sacrificial ritual and stuff but putting aside like his his broader speculations about the origin of religion, one of the things he talks about his, you look through the the myths of every society. You can pretty much think up throughout history.

You look at like the national origin stories of nation or people that you can think of. IT is almost without exception, and IT may be without exception that there is blood at the beginning of that story. There's in, in, in its frame because it's a sacred story. It's framed as sacrificial blood right now. Sometimes I will give examples of is true.

he'll give .

examples of sometimes you know, there is a his basic theory write that when a society finds itself in the time of tremendous turmoil and IT may be just this union, you know, like people can feel like we've like we have right now since so like twenty fifteen or how very long it's been, there's just this tension where people come up in moderate people, regular people that you that aren't typically political right and left for that matter.

Everybody kind of has this feeling that this can't just keep going the way it's going. Like, you know, we're approaching some sort of a point where decisions are gna have to make, confrontations are going to have to occur in a decision is going to have to be made because there's just too much ambivalent energy pulling us in every direction. People feel IT in their daily lives and you know 啊 and so that's us to happen to the society and um he points to uh all these examples throughout history and ancient mythology， right where i'll talk about how there is some problem that was plague is is playing theeves.

And you know, whatever example you wanted give, and they find the scape goat person for this, and you jona being thrown overboard into the sea, you know, to come the storm. And what do you know? We found the culprit.

We found the perpetrator, the one who would like, brought this curse upon the city because of his own private sana, whatever IT was. And we got rid of that person. And now everything is actually Better. And now the plague went away in the storm, stopped in something and so what jon says is is is a very interesting inside, I think, is he says what these all are these are postdoc apologies for what these people did you know they're looking back and saying that you know this person who we murdered um that a we had to do that.

But then there's another little weird dynamic where that person sort of becomes deified because at the end of the day, they did have the power to restore order and peace to the society to make the play go away. And there's also a sort of ambivalent feeling is somewhere they do know that they murder, you know, murder this person as escape goat. And uh so so he gives an example, by the way, of like obviously talks about the Christian story, the Chris opacity and he says you have a time like where this is like a you know, jerusalem was full of revolutionary fermat.

There were, you know, there were, there were rebel leaders and riots there were missed, cropping up, sank. That they were gonna. A resistance against the romans is a very, very, very tense time and the community, the jew's community in jerusalem, m was able to sort of you go through this process of around the need to eliminate this victim who at least at present is like responsible and emblematic of all of the um the insane of mounting insanity that sort of engulfing us all right now.

And the difference though, and why could and what IT is like, you think about the idea that we have the cross as our symbol, which is so strange to people who are not Christ. You know, it's like for people today, you would have to think about, like for the, for the, for the visual, sort of way that somebody in the roman world would have witness, would have seen that IT would be like your religious symbol was like a corp. Saying from a news exactly, or a mek or a media, right? And so like that's what they would that kind of crazy when you think about IT like, wow, what is going on there like your your god came down and he was murdered and tortured, put up on across and that's like you're sacred symbol.

And you not try to forget that part of the story or sort of pretend that know that is the story. Very strange, right? And it's because this process that every myth jord says, was based on throughout history that you see apologized, foreign online.

Zed, in every one of these myth, there were people who were following jesus who refused to go along, and they said, no, no, no, no, no, he was innocent and you murdered him, and they refused to back down from that. You look like in the book of x, when Stephen gets model, they freak out and stone him. Not when he's making doctoral points, it's when he gets the place. As you murdered him, he accuses them of murder, and they stone him for IT. And you had these people who were willing to die for that.

They were willing to stand with the victim of, you know, this more attack of the the scape good attack, and die with him if necessary because, you know, do a Christian like that's what model to me is different than like what a muslim means by usually right, you go to war and die and war, and you a marter like in in the muslim world, which is fine, like they have their way of looking at things. But to a Christian doesn't mean you're dying for an idea, dying for Christ IT means you're willing to die with Christ. If you see a mob picking up stones and surrounding and innocent victim, you're not going to slink away.

You're not going to pick up stone. And and if you do, then you know, then you, yeah, you're making an irreparable sort of reval choice. At that point.

You are gna stand with that person, against the mobile, even if that means that you die with him. That's what that means. And if everybody does, I think you have a transformed society. And the kingdom god is something.

And so as a counter example, um jd uses, uh, a holy man, first century, late first century, only second century called the opponents of tyana he was a peg, an holy man who they constructed a biography forum that is essentially the same as jesus virgin birth born a major um twelve disciples um eventually died and like was brought back to life and like so it's like it's it's a clear like ideological refutation of this Christian myth that starting take over the pagan world in one of his most famous miracles that he performed was there was a plague that was engulfing the city of effects and they nobody knows what to do and so they call up on of time, you gotta help us with this plane so he goes up there, he says, okay, i'll help you, but you have to agree ahead of time. You do exactly what I tell you to do, say, okay, great to help and so he leads the community to this tom square. And there's this old beggar who is a, you know, ragged clothes, filthy, no t he just a, you know, destitute, broken, like old beggar.

And he tells the people around, he says, now pick up stones, kill that mean. And at first they're like, I don't know about this, so word needs like, you want a plague to continue or not kill that man and so one stone flies and soon as one flies to fly and they're whole fing. And so they cover and they stone him to death and he's covered with like a care of stones essentially and as they are stoning him, his eyes flash red, he bears his teeth and they realize its a demand and so they finish him often at the end they clear away the stones.

And what they find is this giant frothing at the mouth like dog, dim and thing. And then the play goes away. And which he says, or he doesn't put IT this way because this little too provocative for him.

But i'll put IT this way. What you're reading there is the story of the cruise fiction, as IT would have been written from the perspective of the fiery. That's what that is. You know, of course he was because that hears the crazy thing is it's not they're not imagining that after they kill that guy that everything's getting Better. IT does get Better because all of these people who are ready to just Carry each other apart yesterday, once they all came together around that guy, that's the guy was responsible for all this, and we all came together to commit this crime against him. We're all in this together in a way that .

we weren't before, right?

There's cathartic and the unity, yes. And so IT actually does work in a very perverse way. And of course, IT doesn't last. And eventually you have to .

go to that is that's why human sacrifice continues. That's what you have an abortion. Be happy, right?

That Christianity is the answer to all that is why that know you can look, show similarities, ties between, you know ISIS horus of cyrus and all these various things yeah sure. Like their structural similarities missed the certain aspects of the story, whatever. But at a fundamental level they are they are not just different. They are radically opposed. There are one hundred forty degrees .

that is also possible. That is not just a function human syc logy, but that there is also A A announcement from the outside acting upon people. There's this, maybe you are appeasing the god's for the demons actually .

for a short time yeah I mean that you know most people come to me for history stuff so I don't usually dive into that but occasionally I do and my more tolerant um subscribers you know they say .

they enjoy IT so but yeah that's so when can just p the type bo in the world war two project? Um for I the reason I keep focusing this to be for with the same reason you're doing, and I think it's like it's central to the society we live in, the missiles which is built, I think it's also the cause of like the destruction of western civilization and at these lies. And so I just very much look forward to to your honesty on this question. When does this come out?

I think i'll probably be ready to put out the first episode and maybe six months or so because the i've got another big long episode i'm doing on the history of the labor movement wars where is a great story about um basically a big war that took place between the mafia and american communist party over control of the hollywood unions so fascinating story, a little larger than live characters and so I finish that up and then all start rapping up my research and start moving on to that. Um can I say we are quick too because I did the thing you know your your interview with mr. Putin, I think, probably prepared you for interviewing me because we both do the same thing like you ask me something about world war two and pretty soon i'm talking about all and so I can help myself that you either love IT or hate IT that's what I do in my podcast to um but I think that world war two is a founding myth in majority and sense for us if you think about like just the strategic bombing campaigns, the ethnic glencore at the germans after the war, what the soviet did, the east germany after the war, gest everything that have that we did to to win that conflict. I mean, these are things.

or even the things that maybe be especially things we did .

after we want. And so .

we do those .

things I like, is that sacrificial ritual? L, and I might mean that literally, but i'm not married to IT. If people don't want to take a literally, they don't have to.

But but I probably do. And I think IT was that sacrificial rich al, that was the founding event of the current global ords. IT brought us all back together.

He told us who the bagg guys were, why they are by, in a binary sense, different from an opposed to us, which makes us the good guys. And now we can all again, you know, a vick berg celebrated the force of july. But I do think there .

something else going because I I think a lot of what we hear about all or two is lie. I agreed with everything basis as much less knowledge and you have a but all of your conclusion consistent with mind um but i'm totally happy to say the nations were bad. I think they were, i'm totally happy, said the united states was the most virtuous player among the three.

But you're not talking about a historical event. You're talking about a myth. Go tell a muslim that, yes, mohamed is a great guy. He did a lot of great things, but and then see the reaction everything comes after.

But right now, you're totally right. I just can't get over the fact that the the west wins in its pleated destroyed in less than a century s the .

west was conquered. The west, the west was conquered by the united states in the soviet OK.

But I mean, in the united states, in the rate, somehow the united states and western europe, one that's the understanding. And both have now looked like they lost a world war. So like, what the hell is that? Like, there's something very, very heavy.

Yeah, me, it's all the things that we have been talking about, probably ly some things that you know we only talk about privately, but um we can see the results of IT.

I we were trying .

to achieve that destruction that you're talking about. They were trying. Have done IT more directly or more effectively, you know. And so uh, there are trans and forces. There are things that drive people, you know like incentives that drive people that they're not aware of this lot of things going on. But if they doing IT in tional.

a lot of incentives to drive, people are not aware. Boy, that is so true and worth well in your business. I think it's really important to remember that for all of us, it's important to remember we're not quick sure what drives after other people sometimes.

Let's value you a history in a long ways as we have a the benefit of hindi. And you know, one of the things that you find, I found this again on pretty much every single topic that i've covered, even the labor movement like ones that i'm doing now. Or i'm like, especially back in the old days, you know, before he became big labor. Like i'm a fiers partisan of the labor movement, back in the later earning a big time.

I totally.

And so I expect you going into a like, this is just gna be like a big, you know screw the bosses like you know pro union, pro everything kind of I am still pro union, pro everything on on that side. But IT made me be able to see where the bosses were coming from and what they thought they were looking at.

And if you take that any historical topic, any historical topic, if you allow yourself to be open about IT, you know, I I have gotten an email. I got email back in twenty teen twenty eighteen, from an active duty israeli soldier who was serving actively in the west bank, who told me that he heard my israel palestine series, and that IT opened up his, you know, his understanding of how things did look to the other side and how the history was understood from the other side. And that had affected the way he interacted with people on a daily, but palestinians on a daily basis, that is checked input and things like that. And it's because if you in in all praise to that guy, you know good for him because that's a tough thing to do, you know, especially when you're in matching IT like he is. But if you allow yourself to be open and look at almost anything, honestly, what you find as you, you end up with at least a certain amount of sympathy or understanding for almost everybody involved and told.

And that's the only perspective from which you can see the truth. I mean, I used to say to reporters to work for me as I be signing stories, say, you know, you don't get to try to start you with your girlfriend and your mom because you're blinded by love, but you're also not allowed to write a story about someone who you hate like because hate is irrational, you know, strong, dislike, disagreement, disprove, al all allowed, encourage, in fact, but hate blind you and if you don't see the person as a person, you're not going to write about them accurately like people are fellow human beings, however evil they are, right?

And you see this with, like in good novellas verses, mediocre novel, right? right? Like you think of somebody like, like a great right, like good prose, right? Like Johnson and friends and right. He's got this one book.

What book was that? I can remember the title of IT, but it's it's this sort of like urban rural book where the new york city, you know, cosme politic guy goes back to visit his family for Christmas in the country, and the france is a great writer. Can you can develop characters if this the character is from new york, Richard developed.

He deeply understands that man. And you can tell, by the way, he write IT nothing but carri atures and stereotypes or his family members back? No, and it's because he just .

can't step into .

their shoes. Kind of like I just a home mart card version of what you'd expect those people to be like. He just was not anybody who's been around people like that or has been people like that would just have you literally laugh at IT.

And this is a great writer, but if you can put yourself into the shoes of the people you're writing about, IT leads to the point where you can humanize. You don't have to say like go I can see if I was done. I won't done that too.

It's not it's about IT. Can you at least like, can you get yourself to a place where you can see a person in that position at that time was seeing the world and the factors that they were taking into account when they were making their decisions. And now you have people out there who are Jeffery domer. I'm not time about people like that. You know, those people who are pathologically broken, psychotic, you know, you think of a world leader like idio mean, and even to a certain degree, who I consider like much less like stone than he is like somebody like idio mean with, in other words, just like A A child leg psychotic, you know, like a choose .

psychology.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, so you have those people, and I think you should figure out how to identify with those people. Those people are Operating on a different program. Then you are that you're not going to be able to step in to understand.

But most people are not even the even the monsters in the world, the people you think there are not, you know, there are people who zig e when you would have egged and over the course of a whole lifetime of making, you know, different decisions ended up in erratically different place. You know, there are brothers and sisters, siblings who, one of the ends up a drug added in a porn star, and the other one is an engineer and a family man, or something like the group in the same household. That happens, but they respond to the things that can front them in life in different ways. And those things start to add up and eventually gain a momentum of their own. And pretty soon, unless you are, you know, unless you you it's it's very easy, get caught up in that and let that rule you and that's what happens, uh, in most, you know most historical events because most historical events are about groups, you know there are prominent individuals, but ultimately they there are about groups of people and so, uh you know the averages ten tend to win out over time.

So last thing we um for people whose appetites have been wide to to experience what you know, the history that you produce, where can people find this series labor series, your israel palestine series um you know how can I here this sure.

So my main podcast is the modern made podcast.

I was being .

M A R T Y R M A D E. I think when a joe rogan ne dave smith, we're talking about the or no is when josh barnett was on there, my body, josh, but they were talking about IT and rogan a never heard of IT at the time and he called me his marty or monday so but yeah mother made mother like I have a bar made made amErica um and those are my long form history podcast they're found .

where itto spotify .

wherever you want to look for them. They also they appear my substate as well the uh the sub stack is where I do Anthony subscribers only content. Once you get done with the countless hours of long form history podcast, there are fifty, sixty, maybe seventy more podcast episodes behind the pay on sub stack, along with. Thousands of pages of sa series and things like that where I kind of get a deeper in the topics and just general topics that I would like to talk about in my main podcast, but just can't quite fit in and keep an area.

Main podcast has no advertising.

no.

So total revenue to you four years of work is right around zero in .

that range for the podcast itself. The podcast itself.

I just think that's amain dinner. Me, five years. This is said, you know, how do you am sorry to be vulgar, like a capitalist to about that, but like how you know, how do you pay your mortgage? Would you make on that pocket like nothing?

yeah. Well, the podcast is an advertisement, right? If people listen to them, they like them. And then they find out that .

I have a subscriber t about seconds long.

yeah, seven hours.

So your subject also moderate .

yes that subscribe dot moderate dot com and IT has to be that because if you go moderate dot sub stack 点 com elon kills and only x algorithm。 So um subscribed on mother made that com. I do another podcast with my friend jacco a willing, who's a retired navc al commander.

A lot of people have heard of we do and call the unraveling. And um how often well, lately, not as often as we should. We ve been having trouble making our schedules meet up, but we've got forty seven episodes out at this point where we talk about more current historical topics.

Um sometimes we get into politics uh I got last one was on uh the institutional ization and the kind of the fall out the homeless crisis partially resulted from that. So we get into all those things you get to hear, you know like a like a harden warrior like jaco comment on mental health crisis, for example. So that's it's a lot of fun .

Cooper marter made. Thank you. Thank you of for this conversation and for your addition to the same total of knowledge, really appreciated.

Fine, thanks. Thanks for liking across and show.

If you enjoy IT, you can go to talk to cross the com to see everything that we have made, the complete library cross dock.