Bob Roberts (with Adam Scott)
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Josh, thanks for letting me lure you into the studio. I'm excited. Thanks for having me. I was thinking about how it's your birthday coming up. Oh, no. And for once, we're not going to get to spend it together. That's true. We generally do. Yeah, but you're going to be in London. I will indeed. Well, I was thinking about one of my favorite stories that you've told, which is the season six premiere of The West Wing. Sure. When you all went to Camp David.

in the show. And you had Marine One. And on the side of it, they made a typo. Untied. States of America. Untied States of America. And so I thought...

in honor of your birthday. I made this last night. Oh, oh, God, you're good. Oh, it's so good. I love it. Will you describe it? Yeah. Is it going to be a piece of new merch? It's a new t-shirt. It's not available only to me. I won't have the only one. All right, I'm going to measure my excitement. Well, I'm seeing the front and the back. Yeah, the front is our pin, which actually looks amazing on a shirt. This is very exciting. Of course, what's next? Flentil A Veritas. It looks fantastic. It's

And on the back, "Untied States of America." Brilliant! We're gonna offer it in a couple of different colorways. One, just a stark black and white, the way it appears on Marine One, black with white type. But then, I also thought... Oh, my God, that's such a good idea. ...in honor of another moment from this episode that I love, which is when you are running through the woods...

and you rolled up your sleeves against Alex Graves' wishes to show your massive guns on screen in that Carnegie Mellon sort of like athletic shirt. We're also going to do a tri-blend black, sort of like the shirt you're wearing in that episode, so that people who get the shirt can roll up their sleeves and show off their biceps. Yes, maybe we can all show up at Alex Graves' house. So this is going to be a new piece of merch that's going to come out, and we're going to have all of our stuff

for sale at thewestwingweekly.com slash merch. But check out the new Untied States of America t-shirt

in two different ways. And then there's going to be a premium version because you know how whenever the president is on Marine One, he's got the cool windbreaker? Oh yeah, exactly. We're also going to do this as a windbreaker. Are we really? We can do that? We're going to do a black windbreaker. Same thing, the Westman Weekly Seal on the front, Untied States of America on the back. Can't wait to get one. And

And I could just see people all across the country putting it on as Martin Sheen would put it on over his head. Amazing. Oh my God, this is fantastic. And so many people are going to be approached and asked, you know, there's a typo on the back of your shirt. Oh, exactly. It'll just be endless. And that's how you know they are the enemy. They're not in the club. Anybody who points at it, maybe enemy is strong. Yeah.

I want to give a shout out to Chuck Gibbons who sent me an image on Instagram that I think is relevant for anybody who gets this shirt. It's a tweet from Dropped Mike. It says, interviewer, quote, can I get your references? Me, probably not. No one else does. Oh, that's good. That's really good.

I'm also excited at the prospect of, for the next four years, wearing something that says "Untied States of America." I didn't want to get too dark, but this might be a good reflection of how people are feeling at the moment. And then, lastly, in my small contribution to the overall campaign, Josh Molina is Nice.

I'm going to donate proceeds of this piece of merch to the American Red Cross. Wow. That is awesome. Oh, what a gift. Oh, I'm excited. If you want to support the American Red Cross, who's been doing amazing work here in LA as the wildfires have been just... I'm giving on Monday before I fly to London. Ravaging stuff. And yeah, Josh, if people want to join the Josh Molina is nice...

blood donation team, do they give blood or platelets or both? It all counts if you give through the American Red Cross and you join our team through the app. Of course, I'm also just here to generally encourage giving blood, whether you do it through the Red Cross or not. But if you do through the Red Cross, please join our team. Yeah. And if you get the Untied States of America shirt, that's another way you'll be supporting the Red Cross. Yay. I'm going to wear it to platelet donation, not Monday. Yeah.

But as soon as it's available and I can donate again.

And if you have no idea what we're talking about, it might be time to visit or revisit our episode on Season 6, Episode 1, NSF Thurmont. Right. Very good. Not suitable for work, Thurmont. You'll see. That's a joke you made on that episode as well. Of course I did. What do you think? I got a new joke for this? There's a picture of the untied States of America that Josh took before the art department went and fixed it on Marine One.

One of the great photos of all time from the West Wing. By the way, I also, since you mentioned my guns, I occasionally I search my name on Reddit and Reddit is where you get the real honest people who really tell you what they think of you. And there's always something horrible. This comes to us from Cavewoman22. She says, Josh Molina has always had a face made for radio and a body made for late night cinemas. Yeah.

The sad part is I read that and I'm like, oh, it's just saying I'm ugly. But oh, net gain. I was like, for me, that's a rave for Reddit. Amazing. So go to thewestwingweekly.com slash merch to get your Untied States of America shirt or windbreaker. And now, on to the episode.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with AutoQuote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

You're listening to the West Wing Weekly Political Film Fest. I'm Rishi K. Sherway. And I'm Joshua Molina. And we're joined live by a special guest, Adam Scott. Hey, guys. Hooray. Adam, thanks so much for being here. This is your second time on the podcast. That's true. Oh, yeah, returning guest. Returning guest, yeah. We did our special Parks and Rec episode with you and Michael Schur, which was so great. And our first West Wing Weekly Political Film Fest guest is...

I guess you're right. That's a unique honor. We've set the bar very high. Thank you for having me. This was by my request. Yeah, exactly. We wouldn't be making this episode if it weren't for you. So if you're Adam Scott level or above, you can also request to be a guest on...

on our podcast. But if you're below, please don't contact us. Just DM Rishi. You will be sitting here alongside me because I'm here permanently now. And we're here in studio, Rishi's place. That's right. What's your perspective on how this all happened?

I'd love to hear it from your side. Sure. I'm a massive fan of the podcast, as you know. Actually, just recently, I ran into Tommy Shlomi at a party and cornered him and introduced myself as a wingnut and got to talk about the West Wing with him, which was so cool. And a lot of my knowledge about the show comes from the podcast because it's such a great...

resource for fans of the show. Obviously, it's the resource. And then when you guys kind of came back and started doing the Political Film Festival, it was so lovely to have you back. It's like a comforting show to listen to, and I just love listening to you guys. But then diving into these movies that I know and love was really fun, and I just started thinking about other political films that I hoped you would zero out on.

zero in on, but then it ended. You guys had your final episode, so that's why I reached out to you. My first reaction when Rishi shared with me that you wanted to do this, first I was delighted because I'm a huge fan of yours, as I have privately expressed, but also I was like, I didn't remember Adam being in Bob Roberts, because most of the movies I suggest I

I'm in very briefly. And it's one of the all-time stacked casts ever. So I was like, he must have been in it. And I didn't realize. And I realized, oh, no, he's a fan of Bob Roberts. No, I was an acting student when the movie came out. And I went to see it many times. But you're right. I hadn't seen it in a long time and had forgotten just how stacked it is. It's insane. It's unbelievable. In tiny little roles. Yes. Yeah, it's amazing. Where were you studying acting? The American Academy of Dramatic Arts, which at the time was in Pasadena.

I started there in 91 and

graduated in 93. Tim Robbins and the Actors Gang. Yeah. Well represented. His theater company of which I guess he was a founding member. Maybe he just was the guy, I think. He was the artistic director. Thank you. That's what I'm looking for. Well represented in this movie. Yeah, a lot of the Actors Gang popping up, which is terrific. So Bob Roberts, Josh, you want to give us the data? Oh, yeah, sure. It was released on September 4th, 1992, written and directed by Tim Robbins.

All songs by Tim and David Robbins, his older brother, I want to say. The kids of a folk singer. I don't think I knew that either. Gilbert Lee, Gil Robbins, late of the Highwaymen. Who's also in the movie. And whom does he play?

A reverend? I'll accept that answer. Yeah. I believe you. I was going to guess Bob Roberts' dad in the interview portion, but that's not it. Doesn't actually play his dad, no. Oh, interesting. And is his brother in it? No, but he does the score. Yeah. The songs are good. They're really catchy and good. His sisters are in small parts, so it's a real family affair.

If you haven't seen the movie, Bob Roberts is a fictional documentary set in 1990 around the Pennsylvania Senate race. Tim Robbins plays Bob Roberts, who's a folk singer and Wall Street stockbroker. He's described as a crypto-fascist with songs like, Times Are Changing Back.

And the film follows his campaign, the documentary film within the film, follows his campaign against incumbent Lloyd Brickley-Paste, who's played by Gore Vidal. We meet Bugs Raplin, an independent investigative reporter played by Giancarlo Esposito, who's trying to expose corruption within an organization that's closely tied to Bob Roberts. Then there's an assassination attempt on Roberts' life, and Bugs Raplin is falsely accused. But the whole thing drives up Roberts' numbers in the polls, and he's elected senator.

Even though the shooting's supposed to have left him paralyzed, in the last moments of the film, as Bob Roberts sings and plays a song from his wheelchair, the camera catches him tapping his foot. And the tagline of the movie is, vote first, ask questions later. Very apposite time to be watching this movie, given the current state of affairs. When's the last time you had seen this movie prior to watching for today? So I had seen probably the first half of it in 2017 and was blown...

blown away by the parallels to where we were then. And I think I may have even tweeted about it or something like, check out Bob Roberts, this is crazy. But then kind of didn't think of it again until listening to the podcast. But at the time in 1992, this was a deeply important movie for me and my friends. We saw it over and over again, both because...

the mock documentary kind of genre wasn't really a thing other than Spinal Tap and the Robert Altman, what was that one? Tanner. Tanner, yeah, Tanner 88. There was no office or anything like, so this mock documentary coming out, it was like, oh my God, it's like Spinal Tap or something. But also it was pre-Clinton. I mean, Clinton, meaning Clinton had not been elected yet. So it was a pretty dark time

politically and the first Gulf War was obviously front and center. So it was a really visceral time, but also comedically it was super sharp and new and fresh. Yeah, I was wondering if you thought it was funny at the time because I feel like to go see a movie over and over again, you kind of have to also be able to laugh at it. Yes.

I remember the parts I rewound the most once it was out on VHS were the James Spader bits as the newscaster. Yeah. So funny. Recent polls show incumbent Senator Pace in the lead over Roberts by 10 percentage points, but sources in the Roberts campaign say the Roberts will be a strong finisher. I could use a strong finisher myself sometimes, Carol. How about you? Ah!

The newscasters in this movie are really famous people and there's a great clip that I saw with Tim Robbins and I can actually I can play for you guys. Wherever you travel there are these local anchors that are so up and charming and beautiful and so lacking in substance.

That in a lot of ways, these anchor people are aspiring to be images or aspiring to be movie stars. So it made complete sense to me that movie stars should play the local anchors in the movie. That makes sense. It does make sense. And whom do we get? Fred Ward? Yep. Pamela Reed? Yeah. James Spader? Susan Sarandon. Susan Sarandon, pre-Ping Pong. Peter Gallagher? Peter Gallagher. Yeah.

There's a young Helen Hunt as a field reporter. Yes, that's right. Oh, and someone else as a field reporter. There was another, who was it? Fisher Stevens? Yes. Ah, well done. Yeah, yeah.

Also, Tim Robbins mentioned that Spinal Tap was a big influence for him. As was clearly Don't Look Back, D.A. Pennebaker. For sure. For sure. It seemed to have a little tip of the hat to Spinal Tap in that scene where they get lost in the kind of hallways. Yes, exactly. Absolutely. But sort of a long way around of saying that the resonance it had

was completely different from 2017, which I wasn't expecting because of where we are right now and the kind of, I guess it's what's happening right in this moment. And we're seeing a lot of capitulation kind of happening, like dominoes falling. Yeah. All the tech companies sponsoring the inauguration. It's all sort of

coalescing in a way I wasn't really expecting and that you can see starting to happen in Bob Roberts. I'm so curious what your reaction. Do you remember, Josh, when you first saw this movie?

I'm sure I saw it in 92, which would have made me 36, a young man of 36. I feel like I underappreciated it. I don't know why I've never watched it again. And I was pretty knocked out watching it for this. It's dense, too. There's so much going on. Also, shout out in order for Gene Lapine.

The director of photography, not sure how to pronounce his or her name. I've clearly done my research. Also, shout out to Jean-Antoine Lépine, French watchmaker, 1720 to 1814, whose work I came across in my limited preparation. Fine that they did. Yeah. But I like the guerrilla filmmaking aspect of the movie. It seems like it was done on the run, right?

- Yes. - Cheaply in a way that benefits the final product. - When I first saw this movie,

I just thought it was so incredible. So you do remember seeing it initially? Yeah. I don't remember the circumstances, but I remember the feeling that I had that it was just, it felt like everything I wanted from a movie. Like it was funny and it was smart and it was sharp and it was kind of cynical and yeah, it was dense. It met you at a level where they assumed you were smart. You were going to get what they were putting down. Yeah. It doesn't hit you over the head with this politics, which I think is the danger zone of a film like this.

feeling tendentious or propagandistic or with an agenda that they just want to beat you into submission. They did a good job playing it close to the bone, I think. That's right. In the 90s, especially at that time, I was discovering punk rock.

Just getting so into it and getting so excited about that kind of, I don't know, art that voiced a lot of the things that I was thinking. And this just felt so punk rock. Yes. That's what really struck a chord with me and my friends at the time. I was like freshly 19. Yeah. And this sort of anti-establishment feeling, particularly taking aim at the Reagan-Bush movement.

and sort of the culture that had been built up that entire time, our entire childhoods at that time. And kind of the conspiratorial way in it was taking was really resonant.

I was on a big Tim Robbins kick at that time too, because I also really loved The Player. Yeah. That was another one where I was like, I didn't know they could make movies this dark. Robert Altman. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I was just discovering that kind of like, oh, the cynical part of it really appealed to me. Same. And then on the other side, you know, for a while when people would say like, what's your favorite movie? I used to say The Hudsucker Proxy.

So it was just a big Tim Robbins time for me. So I was, I didn't see it in the theater, but I think I saw it, you know, soon after that. Yeah, we're talking about the cynicism of it, but I feel like in a way when I first watched it, it gave me a little bit of hope that there are allies out there who like see things similarly to me. I think my hope has been dashed again of recent years, but it gave me a little flicker of, you know, there's a fight to be had.

I wonder, too, if 1992 cynicism is 2024's hope. Wow. That's very quotable. That's very good. I think perhaps so. Maybe. That might be the most cynical thing that gets said today. So Bob Roberts, the character, actually has his origins way before this film. SNL? Yeah. Really? Tell me I don't prepare. Yeah, exactly. What could you tell us? Nope.

That was all I had. So in 1986, there was an episode in the 12th season of SNL where there was a short film that Tim Robbins made about this character Bob Roberts, at the time was just a folk singer, but still this kind of like yuppie folk singer, not yet a politician.

and it aired on Saturday Night Live. And then I guess he'd just been thinking about that character ever since, and then sort of continued him on his journey. What happens to that character from there? And I found this in an interview in Entertainment Weekly from September 2017, around the time that you probably rewatched the movie. I think a lot of people were looking at it again. The

The seed that planted the film in his head in the first place was that he grew up in Greenwich Village in the 60s and 70s. And I'm just going to quote him here. And I went away to college, UCLA. I guess I left in 1978 and stayed out in LA until 85. I was cast in a movie called Five Corners, and I moved back for a couple months.

I rented an apartment in Greenwich Village and I saw what had happened to the neighborhood. It had been gentrified where there used to be a first or second generation Italian shoemaker or baker. Now there was a David's Cookies. I don't know what David's Cookies is, but I'm guessing it's a big cookie. A chain of some sort? Jewish control. I guess so.

Where an old craftsman used to make guitars, another chain had moved in. Seeing my really interesting bohemian neighborhood turned into more of the same, the mollification of America, for me, that was disturbing because it wasn't the Greenwich Village that I knew and had grown up in. So I wrote the short film in response to that.

Hmm.

But I tried to go watch the short film and I couldn't. I paid for a subscription on Peacock and watched the episode. It's not in there. Really? For anybody who's trying to find it. I wonder why. I wonder why, yeah. It's strange. Also, the movie is really hard to find.

Yeah, it's not anywhere. You can't stream it on any legit... Where are all the other Tim Robbins movies that we've not gotten? He's like a legitimate quadruple threat. Writer, director, actor, singer. He sings well. Really good singer. I wonder why, after knocking this out... I think in 2017 when I found that it was on...

or something. I don't remember it being hard to find. Oh, and I did read somewhere that the soundtrack to the movie was supposed to come out, but Tim Robbins decided he didn't want these songs being heard out of context. I remember that. Which is kind of unbelievable. Yeah, and smart. I mean... I get it. Yeah. I mean... Like, look at Born in the USA. The Death of Irony, I completely understand. Totally. What did the teacher tell you in school today, my child?

Said it's a crime to say a little prayer Said God's no longer wanted here

Although it would be wild to see Trump rallies with these songs. Playing those songs. Which is what would have happened. When I was watching it with my wife, Lindsay, she was just like, this is just, doesn't feel entertaining. It just feels like right now. Yeah. But at the time, it did feel funny. It did feel like,

Well, I mean, I found it funny. I found Escapist funny watching it this time. I'm in a pretty morose state. I mean, like, I don't even like to read the news anymore. Although I do. I glance. I'm like, nope, not going to read that article. This gave me a little Escapist, like, it gave me laughs. Yes. Being hilarious. Like, these little fun moments and Ray Wise, these great actors, amazing.

playing all this absurdity and playing it real. Completely agree. Interesting, because this jumped out at me in the Vincent Canby New York Times review of the movie, which is very, very positive. He pans Alan Rickman, who I think also is brilliant in the movie. He talks about the entire cast being fantastic. There's a quote now, the exception is Alan Rickman as Lucas Hart III, the chief architect of Bob's campaign. Mr. Rickman is not a subtle act

The minute he comes on the screen, he's so arrogant, shifty, and Mephistophelian that it seems like someone would have checked out his connections before it actually happens. "Now the fact that men like Rathlin exist shows what you get with a liberal agenda. You pump people full of drugs and pipe dreams of what happens, they come gunning for people like Bob. But those folks don't realize something: you can't kill the truth. Bob Roberts is not going to be stopped by any bullet. He'll be back, and man, you better watch out, because he's headed straight for Washington."

Wrong, Vincent. Wrong. Alan Rickman isn't catching a stray there. He's the bullseye. Right on target. Yeah. Wow. That, I think, is the densest part. The Giancarlo Esposito broken dove investigation. It was very difficult, I think, particularly in a movie in this format to tell story. Exposition, because the whole thing also has to be, at least on some level, believably part of

what's his name, Terry Manchester's documentary. So I think it is a little bit difficult to follow, but they do a pretty good job of keeping you, taking you along for the ride. It is funny to see the mock documentary format in its somewhat infancy as

Now that it's just a straight up genre on television, they've really kind of perfected how to, where to put all the expo, where the scenes... We would get confessionals now. Yeah. That would help a lot. Way more interviews now, honestly. Because that's like on Parks, you could really get a lot of information into those 21 minutes or Office or any of them with the interviews. I think I understood what was going on. Maybe partly it's me filling in some gaps, but...

Can I run my theory by you? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I think there's a moment where they're on the campaign bus and they're doing all the sort of day trading from the bus. And Terry Manchester's interviewing Bob Roberts and he asks him, you know, how did you get out from the crash of 87? In fact, you made a lot of money. Oh, they're on the bus. They're on Pride. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And he gives a kind of cagey answer where he says...

Oh the smart money got out early the slow lost money in that crash Smart money got out before the jump on hit the fan if you know what I mean granted that information was up to the minute gold-plated information cost me considerable effort and diligence and if I had been out when those calls came in it would have been screwed but I am a smart businessman I think that the way that he got that information is from Lucas Hart. Yeah that Lucas Hart who was in charge of destabilizing government sort of had the Intel

fed that to Bob Roberts, Bob Roberts got rich and then helped Broken Dove, or maybe he was already part of Broken Dove, but basically that's where the money comes from. And so now they're sort of inextricably linked. And so if Broken Dove goes down,

Bob Roberts goes down. And then I was like, is there a chance that, you know, they also show that Bob Roberts had this military background. I was like, is he secretly, was he a CIA agent under Lucas Hart? And that is like, continue to. I think potentially so. I'm convinced. Yeah. I like your argument. I buy it. Sounds like a good theory. I think somewhere in there as well. And I think it's probably because I hadn't quite understood.

figured out the wall street crash part of it and i think you're exactly right but i think also in there whether taking the profits from lucas hart's insider training information to bob roberts and buying the planes and using those planes for drug running yeah that's also where they i got the idea that that's where they made their real money yeah was running

Right. And actually, they don't even need to use the money that he got from the crash because they bankrupted a savings and loan. That's right. They never really explained why they have the sort of loyalty to one another. But that's the backstory I invented.

in my head is that they have some kind of weird, you know, military connection or CIA connection that existed way before this story takes place. Because you wouldn't imagine somebody like him being a campaign manager, but you can see that this is just like the next stage in their shadowy power. Like the next extension of their enterprise that they've set up. This is just another arm of their money-making enterprise. Yeah. And at the time...

This is just a few years after Iran-Contra and Oliver North and all of that. So this kind of general area, this kind of shadowy CIA drug running, all that stuff was very much kind of just bubbling under the surface of any kind of political discussion. Yeah. I love that they just insert him into Iran-Contra. Yes. And that Paste is like one of the people questioning him for that. Gave it some...

history and texture is really smart. I was in college at the time, and one of my roommates was obsessed with the Ron Contra, and so got us all obsessed.

And we were watching. And then somehow we got a transcript and we used to read from it. Oh, wow. We used to do readings. Wow. Just sitting around undoubtedly very, very high, questioning each other. That is so cool. Weird, nerdy, but fun. Super nerdy and awesome. It's crazy now thinking about I ran Contra and...

how nuts that was and how brilliant it is that they were able to spin Oliver North into a hero, but also when compared with...

any number of Trump-related scandals and maneuvers, it kind of pales in comparison. Completely. And it was so much more subtle. Yeah. And devious or something. And now it's like, there's no need to be subtle at all. No. Do it out in the open. A big thought that I had watching it this time was a little bit about the humor in the movie. I still think of the movie as funny. For sure. But this is more meta, but the SNL side of things. Yeah.

So there's this whole section in the middle. Cutting edge. Yeah, where they go to this fake FML. Cutting edge live. Cutting edge live. And John Cusack plays the host. Long before he became a political bummer on Twitter or X.

Formerly Twitter. He played a political bummer and cutting edge a lot. In the beginning, our great company provided appliances for the neighborhood. We heated your home, refrigerated your food, and improved the quality of your life. He's such a bummer on it, right? Completely. And he's trying to do this monologue or this sketch where he's like, we're a multinational conglomerate, but... Our chief source of income, however, is the arms industry.

Yes, we rely heavily on those fat government contracts to make these useless weapons of mass destruction. And even though we have been indicted and convicted for fraud several times, you don't hear too much about our bad side because we own our own news division. And I'm watching like this sucks. It's not funny. Yeah. Read his Twitter feed. No more of that. But yeah.

But then the crew says, this is not funny. It doesn't work. It's not funny. You can't do that. It's self-hating. It's shooting your paycheck in the foot. It's crazy. It's self-destructive and it's not funny. I know. It is. It's really funny. Yeah. I think they tell us there's a 20 million person audience for this. I'm not sure I buy it. I kind of feel the two most difficult things to portray is live music and live comedy in films.

fictional circumstance, like pretend standup comedy and portraying someone just killing up there. Yes. So wait, why is that? Cause you're right. You're absolutely right. I don't know, but I feel like the John Apatow movie does it well, right? Yeah. Funny people. Yeah. Funny people. Cause they were actually going out into comedy clubs. Cause they did it. Yes. And I think cause the jokes are written by actual standup comics. Yeah. And here you see it too. Like the sketch within the movie, uh,

just feels artificial in one way or the other. Yeah. Okay, so the funniest parts for me in the movie are, like, just silly things that happen. Like when he falls off the motorcycle and they all go crazy and the security guards pull out their guns. The fencing altogether is totally inane. Yeah, the fencing is weird. Really weird. Like, I'm trying to think, like, how, where, why? I mean, I...

I kind of liked it because I couldn't answer any of those questions. Like, where did that come from? And then immediately after the fencing bout, he hops on his motorcycle and leads them, the bus. And then at the end, when he and his fencing opponent start really going at each other after the motorcycle crash...

I started wondering, is it really Bob Roberts riding them? Are we meant to believe that it's his like double who's riding the motorcycle and he's actually, yeah. Interesting. But then here's the wild part. The movie comes out in September 92 in October of 92, Tim Robbins is guest hosting Saturday night live. And he,

He basically tries to do the same thing as what John Cusack does in the movie. No. As you know, GE owns NBC. Yes, GE owns quite a few interesting companies. You can put the cards away, Tony. I'm on my own out here, okay? Yes, General Electric is quite an amazing conglomerate. In fact, if you thought that General Electric...

made mainly kitchen appliances and light bulbs, you'd be quite mistaken, you see. General Electric actually makes a great deal of its profits by making things like triggering devices for nuclear warheads. You know the slogan, GE, we bring good things to death.

I mean, it is just unbearable to watch. Unbearable? I'm dying to watch it now. I know, I really want to see it. Wow. And like a voice of God comes over the PA and says, hey, Lauren would like to see you. And then people start laughing and then he gets pulled off stage. And Lauren's like, you can't really do this. One, it's not funny. And he says, they're not laughing, but they're thinking. And it's, I'm just like having such a hard time trying to figure out the balance between

what he wants to do and what he thinks is funny and what isn't. He wanted to wear a t-shirt that had a GE logo with a bar across it. And Lorne Michaels said, be my guest. I don't think General Electric will suddenly grind to a halt because of this. Is that going to be okay? And he said, for him, it would have been an enormously big statement to be defying a corporation while you're on it. And that was sort of the revolution that was going on that week.

That's what people were focused on. People at the network were very focused on what Tim Robbins was going to say about GE. And then...

The same episode, Sinead O'Connor tears up a picture of the Pope. Oh, that was that episode? Wow. So his attempt to be like punk rock and like counterculture. Yeah, a bit overshadowed. Completely overshadowed. That's right. I remember all of this because I was so hyper-focused on Bob Roberts and Tim Robbins that him hosting SNL particularly, yeah, it was a big deal. And then, yeah, the Sinead O'Connor thing.

I forgot that was that exact episode. You know, after the second musical performance, which is when she did this, there's still one sketch that they're supposed to do. There's always like one sketch after that before they go to the closing credits. And it was the Bob Roberts sketch. Oh, really? So he plays Bob Roberts and they do a book burning sketch, which was like,

I didn't find it that funny. It's fine. But the audience is so... Knocked out. Yeah, they're so out of it that that sketch also just... Nobody's laughing at all. On Peacock is the entire episode there, including the ripping up of the photo. There's no Sinead O'Connor on it. You're kidding me.

Because I was just thinking, like, what was such a radical act then, and for which you paid, I think, a huge price, their career and life, these rest in peace. You couldn't do that now? Wouldn't now be a little bit more of a, you know, like, oh. I mean, it came to bear that. Yes, no, exactly. I think there's much more scrutiny of the Catholic Church altogether. But why is it unacceptable now?

That's a history. Like, why wouldn't it be on Peacock? Why wouldn't it be in the episode? I mean, she was banned for life from SNL after that. But I think the answer is for like a much more boring reason. Like you said, it's just music rights. Didn't they have releases back then when they were doing SNL? Why didn't they get people to sign it? Well, I guess because the artists were smart. Well, I remember that particular performance kind of disappearing. Like they...

In reruns, maybe they took it out or something like it was scrubbed in a sense. Yeah. I think it was just so deeply offensive to a lot of people. And obviously, I mean, that was huge. Huge. This was monoculture. I mean, that is what everyone was talking about for weeks after this thing that she did.

Yeah, and I don't think... Remember when enough people watched one thing that that could happen? Yeah. Like, it's almost like everything's so fractured now. So weird. But so I was trying to figure out where Tim Robbins' sense of humor and his...

desire to make political statements squares in this SNL performance. Because just watching Bob Roberts on its own, I'm like, oh yeah, he knows what's funny. He knows what's not. The part that's not funny gets called out for not being funny. But then he does this thing where he just reenacts it. It was so strange. I mean, watching it last night, I was, you know, and that John Cusack part in particular, I remember that very distinctly and thinking it

it was awesome. That particular thing where he's like, yeah, and we make weapons or whatever, and kind of pointing out all the kind of corporate hypocrisy. And I remember at the time thinking it was awesome and not really thinking it was funny, but thinking it was incredible to hear all of this kind of pointed out. It was very, again, just kind of thinking about 12 years of Reagan Bush and how a lot of this stuff was

counterculture and kind of conspiratorial. It felt like something was starting to happen and we were going to dislodge ourselves from this long, I mean, growing up in California, at least, this long sort of malaise of Reagan-Bochere. Yeah, Clinton was the first candidate I voted, presidential candidate I voted for that won. I remember this being like, oh, this can happen? Wow. Like, yeah. I think I forget how...

how much I've taken for granted information that I have now. Yeah. But there was a time, and certainly at the time when I was watching SNL, I had no idea that GE owned NBC. Right. Thank you for pointing that out. That's what I was trying to articulate, is that hearing John Cusack say that in the... Connect some dots. Yes. I was like, whoa.

Yeah, man, that's true that that's happening and that's happening. It was that and then hearing David Letterman joke about GE. Yeah, always, right. That's all the information I had. So that's why that was sort of revolutionary for me and why this movie kind of...

It's easy to underestimate the pre-social media days that we came up in and grew up in. Yeah, and just like a lack of awareness of the sort of corporate ties to everything. Yes. Because now we're already 18 years past 30 Rock and the Scheinhardt wig company. You see...

GE owns Kitchen All of Colorado, which in turn owns JMI of Stanford, which is a majority shareholder in PokerFastlane.com, which recently acquired the Scheinhardt Wig Company, which owns NBC outright. NBC owns Winnipeg Ironworks, which owns the Opchang Party Meats Corporation of Pyongyang, North Korea, and they will make the meat machine.

And that was a joke that landed so well. Yes. Because there was like a understanding in mainstream pop culture that like GE was the parent company and then sold to Comcast and all that stuff. But there was definitely a time when that wasn't the case, when you didn't really think about anything past the network level or certainly I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm...

I take it back. I can see why that was. That's probably also part of the reason why I thought it felt so punk rock, too. Yeah. Back then was I was probably hearing that for the first time. I don't even know if I got it then. I mean, at least for me, that particular section wasn't playing for comedy. It was a direct hit. And then everything that ends up happening at the show was very visceral as well. Yeah. And now we're going to take a quick break. And now back to the show.

Maybe the biggest laugh for me in the movie is Jack Black's line after Bob Roberts gets shot. It's as if he knew what was going to happen to him. I mean, we have to use the word profestic. You can only use the word profestic. I know. That was funny. That was really funny. I had to go back and listen to it a couple times, in part because I don't hear well. That made me laugh. I was like, did you say what I think you said? Yeah. I also watched the entirety of the movie focusing every...

frame of Jack Black trying to see whether... And he was good and very good at it, but like, could I see the giant star to be? It's funny, there's something time capsule-y about little performance like that, that I believe was his film debut. I was trying to see, like, can I see it? And he definitely got... I mean, he's got the...

the dead eyes of the Bob Roberts fanboy. Yeah. I was trying to do something similar. I just kept staring at him every time he'd be on screen because he had that like manic, manic look on his face. He either would be a serial killer or he would be a devotee of a cult or whatever. And I was like, am I constantly drawn to him when he's on screen because of that, what he's giving off?

Or because it's Jack Black. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, look, Jack Black. Yeah. I couldn't tell. Have I told the story of, I auditioned for the movie Mars Attacks. I must not have gotten it. I would have heard by now. I assume I didn't get it. I don't know, man. You never know. Yeah. I think, anyway, I'm probably in the mix. But I was doing the usual thing. I'm very bad at auditioning altogether. And I get nervous. And I was sitting around looking at the other people. And like, you can tell we're all reading for the same thing or whatever. And then there was just a...

slightly paunchy young actor lying on the floor on his back asleep. Like, I mean, I've never seen anything like that in many places, but certainly not in a casting session. And it was Jack Black, and he got the part. He did get the part. Of course he did. I was like, of course.

The asleep guy guy. I remember that, like being in these waiting rooms for years and always the guy that was late and just kind of wandered in and was like, are there sides? And going in and someone bringing him, he's like, oh, thanks so much, sweetie. Like,

That guy doesn't look like he needs the job the way I do. I've been working on this for five days. And that guy always got the role. I've always wanted to have the balls like, I'm going to go to sleep on my back. Yeah. Because I've seen it work on the floor and freak everybody out. So we talked a little bit about the movie and how it resonated in 2017. I feel like I thought of the movie again in 2024. Yeah.

And I think a lot of people did. There was an assassination attempt on Donald Trump. Right. Or was there? No, I'm just kidding. I'm not starting that. The fact that there are social media origin conspiracy theories about Trump's assassination attempt makes it feel very of a piece with what happens to Bob Roberts. Yeah. He would like to say that as a witness to this incident, he saw the gun fired twice into the ground, not at Bob Roberts. What?

Mr. Raplin contends that Bob Roberts was not shot that evening. Tim Robbins said on X, to anyone drawing a parallel between my film Bob Roberts and the attempted assassination of Trump, let's be clear. What happened yesterday was a real attempt on a presidential candidate's life. Those that are denying the assassination attempt was real are truly in a deranged mindset. A human being was shot yesterday. Another killed.

They may not be human beings that you agree with politically, but for shame, folks. Get over your blind hatred of these people. They are fellow Americans. This collective hatred is killing our souls and consuming whatever is left of our humanity. Yeah, well done, Tim Robbins. I remember seeing this movie and immediately thinking...

Are they saying that the Reagan assassination attempt was fishy in one way or the other? Because of the way this assassination attempt is filmed, it felt very Reagan-y. That's true. And I don't think it is, but at the time we were kind of looking for any clues to anything. And I do not think that the Reagan assassination attempt was not real. I'm very sure it was, but that was the sort of...

I watched somewhere some granular analysis of the Reagan attempt, and you see Secret Service guy, like, I guess, the utter hero. They were showing how he does a thing where he widens himself in order to be hit so that Reagan won't...

It was pretty fascinating. The assassination attempt sequence is filmed very well. Yeah. They did it so they could do it like a Zapruder-y, like slow motion. I was thinking because the movie looks so...

In a positive way, it doesn't look super choreographed by any means. Nothing looks choreographed. It looks very haphazard. But I was wondering, did they just do this over and over and over? Or did they somehow figure out a way? Because it really is where you can't quite see and they're slowing it down in the stills. It's kind of brilliantly shot. Yeah. And that section that you were talking about, too, when they're trying to get out from the basement and Bugs Raplin is chasing them around. It was funny.

It reminded me a little bit of this thing that Josh and I have talked about, the sort of like Game of Thrones version of sex position, where you get like whole chunks of exposition through because it's happening during a sex scene. And I felt like they did a sort of version of that here where they've got Raplin kind of hammering him on all of the SNL, not SNL, S and L connections with Broken Dove.

By the way, Broken Dove. Incredible name. Great name. What a great name.

And he's chasing him around and he's trying to get him to answer. And they combine that with this really hilarious moment of them not being able to leave. Like they can't get away from him. They can't get out of the building. And that's really funny, but that's kind of happening in the background. Yeah. Yeah. I thought was so smart. And it was brilliantly shot and great.

choreographed because they kept ending up in like, they ended up in the midst of a ballet class at one point. They were all going all through this building and they didn't cut at all.

Also, the motorcycle crash, they didn't cut either. And it was great because the crash happens and the camera shaking. They were able to switch the stunt guy out with Tim Robbins and then kind of came back. It was just sort of cool, old school. Well done. Yeah, really smart. More Trump overlays, beauty contest. She's a beautiful girl, as pretty as a picture.

How weird that he's like singing at a basically like Miss America. And you saw his campaign staffer, the woman who's kind of there throughout the film. And she quits at the end. Yes, yeah. You see her during the beauty contest. I feel like that's Rebecca Jenkins. Rebecca Jenkins, who's excellent. I think so too. And you see her during that.

Beauty contest. Just utterly disgusting. Very subtly well and well done. Yeah. I love the perspective of Terry Manchester. And there is an editorial gaze of the documentary filmmaker that's happening in this. That is its own character that I think is really cool and smart because it's separate from the, uh,

So how's the documentary going?

Well, I'm learning a great deal about Bob Roberts. You know, you're lucky. You're lucky to be spending so much time with Bob Roberts. I don't know if I'm lucky. What do you mean? I don't know if I really like him. I don't know if he's healthy for your country. Why do you like him? It's so nice because it just makes you trust the perspective of the film within the film. In a way, I just thought that was really well done, too. I also felt early on they pinpointed something interesting.

About Bob Roberts that's destructive and that I drew a straight line to Trump Which was very early on in the movie I don't remember exactly what the context was but you see Jack Black and the fan boys of Bob Roberts kind of clashing with the protesters outside and a melee kind of issues and they start

fighting and it's reported on the news the next day and they it's just sort of they kind of dismiss it and think it's great because they're getting media attention but just the division that bob roberts is cultivating on purpose i mean it is intentional he is taking these stances that just cause division and get people just heated up in one way or the other polarized yeah and that is something that has just been really

defined and turned up in the years since. Yeah, I just thought the way that Bob Roberts clearly appeals to people who think maybe someday I'll be well-to-do and his policies will help protect my money, like that was a very Trumpian sort of appeal, like how you can get people to vote against self-interest. Self-determination, the choice to be what you want to be. And I wanted to be rich. Who can argue with that? Yeah, yeah. I think it would be really tough to make

some of this stuff stick if some of those songs weren't so catchy. But they're really catchy. I agree. Some people must have. Some people have. Some people complain and complain and complain. Some people will work. Some simply will not. But they'll complain and complain and complain and complain.

He's distilled into a song form a populist perspective that people are going to really buy. It makes so much sense that he didn't want to put out the album because... They're not broadly satirical. They're...

very well realized and you can buy them as actual songs. Yeah. Oh, one person I wanted to flag was the woman who played Bob Balaban's assistant who ends up kind of pulling the plug. She was fantastic. Really good. I was thinking that too, her whole journey. When she decides she's had it, when he starts playing that one song, she just...

physically she's emoting and the camera is behind her, but we know exactly what she's feeling. And it's all physical and it's a really...

I'm not sure. It's funny that you say that about her facing away from the camera because I was just having a conversation with somebody about theater in the round and how there's something super powerful sometimes when somebody turns upstage from you or, I mean, obviously relative to where you're sitting in the arena, but the acting is so solid and so there that you don't need to see their face. Yeah, yeah. And David Strathairn as the lawyer. Yeah, that's great. Carlo Esposito's lawyer. You're like three quarters of the movie through and David Strathairn shows up. I would say usually...

I find that distracting in movies. Me too. Like I go, all right, now you take me out again. I don't know why it somehow works. I don't know. I mean, part of me, I think, is because it's my own political leanings. And I'm like, oh, there's another ally. Like, that's another good person who wanted to, was willing to play a small part in this thing. But I don't know. It didn't take me out of it. It enhanced the experience rather than detracted from it. I liked it a lot. Shout out also to the editor.

Lisa Churgin is her name. It must be very difficult to edit this kind of footage. Yeah, terrific. I don't know if you watched any of the extras on that Vimeo link. I did not. There's one that I specifically wanted to mention and we'll play a clip of it. Gore Vidal...

who's so great in it. And also, what smart casting to put him in there. And he plays it just, I hate when people who aren't primarily actors are so good. Yeah, I know. It's like, it's just annoying. It's another one of those things, oh, so everyone really can do it? Yeah. Some people just randomly are better than I am. It's actually quite easy. Yeah, it turns out. But yeah, go on. No, no.

Well, I think part of the reason why the David Strathairn thing feels so seamless is because he does have the gravitas of like who you want in the...

whoever the real life version of that attorney would be. It's such a great performance. It's really good casting. And yeah, Gore Vidal, similarly, you just... Gore Vidal, who himself ran unsuccessfully for a House seat in New York. He did. And for the Senate in California. Yeah. So he knows that world, knew that world. Yeah. For sure. And them following...

subtly, I think, the media's portrayal of the Democratic candidate and how every time he's on TV, he's like, food is coming out of his mouth. Yeah, you're right. And then they're like, and Bob Roberts put on a performance that was stunning. And it's not subtle, I guess, but you really see how a pattern starts and a sort of decision is made. And

And one person is portrayed, one candidate is portrayed one way and another is portrayed another way. And it just kind of locks in after a while. Yeah, because there's only room for archetypes. Right. I also like, too, that watching it, at least I thought there probably was something to the charge of the extramarital affair with the underage woman, right? I don't know that I bought that. It was his granddaughter's friend. Oh, really? I thought he said, if you were to show the entire photo. Well, he said that. Yeah.

I don't know if I bought it. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm really jaundiced. I think that that makes its own point. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there you go. It's like the Trump thing of just keep saying it, saying it over and over again. It works on Josh. I'm the uninformed voter that is easily impressionable. You're like, got to be something there. I did. I bought it. I'm like, I'm not so sure he's... Well, in the extras, it ends with Gore Vidal saying, I wonder in a way if he knows what he's getting into.

We have a great deal of prestige in the Senate, but all the power has gone. It's all out of our system. But my day is done, and to the future belongs Mr. Bob Roberts, and the Senate, if nothing else, is a very good place to go to the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue, where the real power is, the White House.

So again, how profestic the movie was. Yeah. Also overlaying parallels with a face in the crowd. With a folk singer, charismatic, winning people over and going into politics and things curdlingly. And this is a question I wanted to ask both of you. So many of the movies that we've watched that we've talked about and other people have talked about

that, oh, at the time it was this satire and now we look back at it and it just predicted the future. Why is that the thing that keeps happening? Why is it that A Face in the Crowd felt that way? Why is it that The Candidate felt that way? Why is it that Bob Roberts feels this way? That it's just like, oh yeah, they're looking ahead to these dark times and ha ha ha, wouldn't it be terrible if this is how things turned out? And then, you know, you go back and you're like, oh yeah, look, that's how things turned out. And people were saying that about A Face in the Crowd,

40 years ago. So I don't know, it just feels like we're locked in this thing where people are gonna be like, "Oh, what if this happens?"

And what's left? Like, where do you go? What do you make today that isn't beyond the reality? What's 40 years from today? Yeah. What's the thing that's so wild that even now it seems unimaginable. And so that's what it can only be satire. I mean, things like silo where people are living in a silo. That's right. Underground. Like, I mean, that's, that's 40 years from now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're going to be like silo. How quaint. Bob Roberts is the mayor of the silo. It depends whether or not the particular cycle is,

that we're on now is broken, right? It depends if we keep heading in the... Because I fear for where this particular path is heading. I think we all know if we stay on this straight and narrow where we're going. Yeah, we've seen it. I know somebody's going to be tweeting three years from now, we're living in silos. And on that podcast three years ago, they were making fun of it. That's right. They didn't know.

Also, Tim Robbins' performance is really interesting and funny and scary. Yeah, it's a very good performance. Oh, it's terrifying. Yeah. Great casting. I guess he didn't have a choice. But I was wondering, like, how much of this movie came about from Tim Robbins having his sort of own political beliefs and then looking in the mirror and seeing, he's like, I think these things, but I look like the villain himself.

I look perfect for this part of this crypto-fascist, yuppie, counter-counterculture folk singer. Yeah. It's incredible. There's a really deeply funny moment that I had forgotten about where he's signing autographs or something and someone reads a letter to him. Oh. And he just kind of flippantly says, Dear Amy, your kind Valentine has made this difficult transition a great deal easier.

Be good in school and don't do crack. It's a ghetto drudge. Yeah. That knocked me out, yes. Damn, that is... Yeah, what a throwaway line. Yeah, just throws it away. And it cuts deep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, final analysis? Oh, big thumbs up. And I was delighted to revisit it. Thank you, Adam, because I feel like this is a movie that sort of slipped off my radar that I probably would not have revisited. It was on my list for our film fest, but it didn't make the cut just because I think the way our conversation went, we kind of went from one film piggybacking off of the other and...

But I'm so glad that we got to actually talk about it. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for doing the film festival. We were so excited about it and we just made an extra episode. We weren't even going to do anything next. Yeah. Well, this is great. Now you're just one of the hosts of the show. Sure. Sorry. Thank you. I'm replacing Josh.

I can feel it. That's my grand plan. Severance season two coming out on my birthday and I'm going to spend... Is this the last year of your 50s? I will be 59 on January 17th as I watch Severance season two. Congratulations. I guess. Congratulations. I guess. Now listen, I'm one year into my 50s. How are you finding it?

I'm finding it just fine. Yeah. Sort of depressing that it exists. You're only as old as you feel, and I've felt 85 for so many years. Me too. That the number no longer means anything to me. Me too. Yes, January 17th, season two comes out. Do you want to make, isn't there a second announcement you can make?

Yeah, because it's not just the show that's coming out. You have a podcast. Oh, yes. Jesus. Thank you. Don't make us do it for you. Forgot already. Yes. On January 7th, Ben Stiller and I have a Severance podcast where we rewatch season one. And every day leading up to the premiere of season two, we will release an episode of us recapping season one.

And then it will then turn into a weekly podcast where we dive into season two and we have guests on, we have cast members and crew members and stuff on. And we just- Fantastic. It's such a meaty show. Like every now and then I won't name a specific, but I hear about a podcast about a show and I'm like, it doesn't need any commentary. Like that's just, I think you watch the show, you got it all. Severance is just the opposite of like,

I can't wait to listen to, I've been rewatching season one in eager anticipation of season two. I love it so much and I'm very excited about there being a company. - Well, I can't wait. And how about on social media?

Yes, at Mr. Adam Scott. My play in London is doing a four-week extension from January 20th through February 15th. If you're interested, you can go look up the Marlowe Bone Theater and book a ticket and say hi afterwards. What we talk about when we talk about Anne Frank by Nathan Englander. I really enjoyed it. Highly recommend. I've seen it now in two cities, two countries. And yeah, it was great. I loved the updated version and thought it was fantastic.

If I do it in Antarctica, will you come again? Of course. I can't wait to see it. If I'm there, I will come see it. I would love to see it. Oh, I would love that. And on January 31st, the film that I scored, Companion, comes out in theaters. Oh, great. And you can see it. Look at us. Three of us have things going on. We've got stuff. It's going to be playing in IMAX in addition to regular theaters. So go see that and listen to the score if you want. The score comes out January 24th. Great. Okay. Okay. What's next?

Radiotopia, from PRX.