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Noelle, we got a new Pope. What are your favorite facts about American Pope? He is a White Sox fan. Chicago Pope has been to a World Series. Amazing. He's a citizen of Peru. He loves ceviche, in fact. He's 69 years old. He loves to play tennis, like you. He's got Creole roots from New Orleans. A beautiful thing. An American thing. Oh, he loves Christmas movies. Uh.
What did he major in in school? He was a math major. He doesn't just love sin, but also costs. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You're so smart. What are we going to talk about on this show, though, Noelle? These are just fun facts. Pope Leo XIV has very strong thoughts about immigration. We're going to talk about why. On Today Explained.
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Hi, I'm Terence Sweeney. I'm a professor in the Honors Program and Humanities Department at Villanova University, which is, of note, the only Augustinian university in the United States. And we now have a very famous alum, the new Pope, Pope Leo, a graduate of 1977 and delightfully a math major, continuing a kind of math and chemistry thing. Pope Francis was a chemistry major as an undergrad, and Leo is a math major, which is great.
A math major and big moment for Villanova, the first Augustinian pope. How surprised was Terence Sweeney?
I was both surprised and not surprised. I've been talking about him with friends and students for the past couple weeks. Yesterday in the morning, I popped into the office of Father Allen, an Augustinian on campus, and I said, are we going to have an Augustinian Pope? And he said he didn't think so. And sure enough, a few hours later, I was watching the live stream, which apparently was lagging a little bit. And I found out who it was when I got a text message from my friend who said, you called it. But at the same time, I was...
Very surprised. I was hopeful for him, but he's an American and traditionally that's, oh, it won't happen. I both kind of called it and was totally shocked. All right. So tell us who he is. Who is Robert Prevost or Pope Leo XIV?
Yeah, Prevost is a kid who grew up in Chicago, went to Villanova University, and there really encountered or continued his encounter with the Augustinians. He had met Augustinians as a young man and joined the order. And I think maybe most notably, then proceeded to spend most of his life as a priest and then a bishop.
In the missions in Peru, he could have gotten assigned to Villanova. He could have gotten assigned to a nice parish in a wealthier part of the United States. But instead, he went to Peru to be with the poor, to do work there, to do ministry there. And I think that's really, in many ways, the heart of who he is.
You know, and you can think about like, you know, I have a pretty cushy spot at Villanova. I have a house. It's, you know, comfortable to suddenly shift gears to a totally new culture, learning the language fully in a place that maybe doesn't have as many perks as an American suburban parish might. I think that's a real sign of wanting to be with those on the margins of global power and economics. But I don't think we've had a pope in...
centuries who has had this experience of working in the missions. We've had pastor popes, scholar popes, diplomat popes, but a pope who spent most of his life in a poor part of a country doing missionary work, I don't even know if we've ever had one. When Pope Francis died, there was a big conversation about whether the church would pick somebody who was more traditional.
or who was viewed as more progressive the way Pope Francis was. What kind of choice is Pope Leo XIV? Where does he fall on that spectrum? I think he, in some ways like Pope Francis, he kind of throws us off these spectrums. He took the name Leo, which in many ways is a kind of pretty traditional papal name. He's the 14th, right? He's not the 1st.
He's kind of closely identifying with, I think, both the first Pope Leo, Pope St. Leo the Great, and Pope Leo XIII, who are, you know, richly part of the tradition. Leo XIII is notable for his work on something called Catholic social thought, what the church brings to the questions of economics and justice and politics. And that has tended to be something that
what we call progressive Catholics have really centered on. So I think in some ways it's unclear, and it was just actually kind of exciting. I think it was also notable that the language of his first address to the people in St. Peter's Square was richly tied in with Pope Francis. We still keep in our ears
That weak but always courageous voice of Pope Francis, who blessed Rome. To all people, wherever they may be, to all peoples, to the whole earth, peace be with you.
And I think maybe there are some signs that he wants to carry on a lot of what Pope Francis did, but maybe make more connections, we might say, between the kind of Pope Francis side of the church and the Pope Benedict side. Hmm. Middle child vibes. I know. That's me. Same, actually. All right. So you've mentioned several times that he is an Augustinian.
What is an Augustinian exactly? The Augustinians are a group of, they're called friars. They were founded in 1244. And they're grounded in a deep sense of, I think, maybe three principles. Living in community, a really strong sense that wherever we go, we go together. Deep sense of the heart. The Augustinians, if you ever see an icon of St. Augustine, he's often holding a heart symbol.
It's a sense that what we need to do is make that connection with other peoples in their heart and a really strong sense of a kind of call to the mission to go out. The original Augustinians often went into cities and places to be with where people were. And so I think that's important in this kind of tradition of the Augustinians, deeply heart-based, strong aspects of intellectual life, hence Villanova. But it's a really wonderful order and it's so exciting to see them get their moment in the spotlight.
So after Robert Prevost was chosen yesterday, immediately it came to the surface that he had expressed some opinions on immigration. And I saw people, and you had written about this in the past, kind of drawing a line between the Augustinian tradition and the current controversies that the United States is facing over immigration. What is the Augustinian position on immigration? Yeah.
I think fundamentally one of the most important part of being an Augustinian is sometimes called the order of loves.
It's this idea in many ways that our hearts need to grow. You know, our hearts can get very narrow. We can just fall in love only with ourselves. So finding a way to have our hearts expand, to make room for God, who is infinite. And when you make room for God, you make room for everyone. And that broadening of our hearts, particularly then not for everyone, but also particularly for those in need. And maybe one of the big tasks of his pontificate for Americans, for all kinds of Catholics, for all kinds of people is helping us broaden our hearts.
I mean, I think notably, we have a vice president who's Catholic, but JD Vance has spoken about the order of loves. And I think it's a very Christian concept, by the way, that you love your family, and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens in your own country. And then after that, you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world.
In some ways, you can think about what he said as, you know, having a lot of the right words but getting the tune wrong. He scribed, it's true, one of the very important ideas that The Order of Loves teaches us that we rightly prioritize people who are closer to us. I have my fourth baby on the way. I spend a lot of time and invest a lot of energy and love in those children. They're my children. And so he's emphasizing that in that kind of sense. And Americans rightly prioritize Americans. And that's true.
But he's kind of missing the point of the order of loves that it was supposed to expand, you know, to go outward. Whereas Vance seems to be talking about it as a way of retracting and going inward. And Pope Francis challenged him on this. And then notably, you know, the power of a retweet. Prevost retweeted an article in America magazine about challenging Vance on this. So I think a kind of early indication that he as pope is going to very much stand with a broadening of our loves.
It is very 2025 for a new pope to be retweeting criticism of a vice president who's had a number of controversies. What do you think it tells us about Robert Prevost, Pope Leo XIV?
I think that he sees that his office as a bishop and now as bishop of Rome is a prophetic one. It means that he has the task. I mean, he has to do this with gentleness. He has to do this with certain kind of diplomacy. He's also now head of state, but he has a task of prophetic witness. That prophetic witness is going to speak about a lot of things. He's going to speak about the environment. He will definitely speak about immigration. He's going to speak about abortion. He's going to speak about a number of things. A lot of times that are going to
throw American binaries off. I think we have, keep in mind, he's a profoundly pro-refugee and pro-life Pope. And something I share with him, the sense that the love that we broaden out is meant to go particularly to the smallest and the most forgotten. And I think he sees that, and I think he's going to speak in that prophetic witness, as did the Popes before him. Terrence Sweeney Villanova, thank you so much for taking the time today. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Very excited. Go Wildcats. Go Pope Leo XIV. Thank you.
All right, Sean, go Wildcats. What's coming up next? Okay, next we're going to hear from a religious researcher about a fight the American Catholics are having right now, Noelle. What's the fight about? It's a fight between cradle Catholics, those who were born Catholic, and convert Catholics, those who are adopting Catholicism later in life, about the true meaning of the faith. Can't wait. Today Explained.
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So I'm Catherine Kalaitis, and I'm a research associate at the Institute of Orthodox Christian Studies, Cambridge. Sweet. But you are not in Cambridge. You are elsewhere. Yeah, I came for Coachella. I'm in Rome. Coachella. The Coachella of Catholicism. Exactly. Exactly. And how is it? Did it deliver? How was the headliner? The people who show up are going to be happy about it no matter what. The papacy inspires that kind of reverence for who you get.
It feels like the first ever American pope presents us with an opportunity to speak about Catholicism in America. How many Americans are Catholic? There's roughly 53 million Catholics in America.
Which is, you know, about 20 percent of the country. Are those numbers trending upwards or downwards in the United States? Do you know? It's trending downwards. The size of the Catholic Church is shrinking both in real numbers and as a percentage of the population. We might have hit the sort of zenith of Catholic representation in America. Not.
Not anymore. We just got an American pope. I guess so. Yeah, that's right. We won. But, you know, I think it's really interesting that you have a country that was, you know, oftentimes hostile towards Catholics, right? They killed Kennedy. People forget this. When Kennedy was running for president, his Catholicism was a genuine issue. I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant, nor Jewish,
where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches, or any other ecclesiastical source. And Catholics were accused of dual loyalty because of the Pope. You know, it was a real problem if your kid came home and wanted to marry a Catholic and all these things. That has largely disappeared.
in no small part because of the alliance between conservative Catholics and American evangelicals, right? Catholics were brought into the mainstream that way. And you've written about another issue in Catholicism in the United States, which is a growing tension between
cradle Catholics and converted Catholics? Tell us more about that. Yeah. So there has been, both to the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, this influx of largely politically conservative, largely white converts who were either from non-religious backgrounds, but largely from these conservative Protestant backgrounds. And
that convert even evangelical backgrounds that convert to the Catholic Church. The most famous example in America today is the vice president of the United States, J.D. Vance. I believe, Maureen, and maybe this is wrong, that I'm the first Catholic convert to ever be vice president of the United States. And I appreciate that. Thank you.
I appreciate you guys clapping because it turns out there are some people on the internet who don't like Catholic converts. And in fact...
There are some Catholics who appear not to like Catholic converts. I've learned that the hard way, but of course the gross maturity... These converts are very specific type, right? And probably, you know, their Catholicism is likely very different than the Catholicism you knew growing up. When I was a kid, we used to call new converts to the faith "baby Christians," and I recognize very much that I am a baby Catholic. If you grow up a Catholic in America or anywhere,
you're embedded in this cultural context that the church is part of. And while you might sort of learn your catechism as you prepare for your First Communion or for your Confirmation, you're not experiencing Catholic theology in a vacuum
And you're not coming to Catholic theology looking for a justification for your oftentimes very traditional worldview that has been created and that you're reacting to within the context of American cultural politics. I think that is the core difference. These are people who come to Catholicism looking for a certain paradigm that
that is completely part and parcel of the American cultural context and of the American culture wars of the past 50 plus years.
So it's kind of like if you were baptized into the Catholic Church as an infant, you might be sort of living your life as a Catholic based on vibes. Whereas if you're a convert like a J.D. Vance type, you might be like extremely into medieval theology. I saw someone online some years ago said something like,
Every lifelong Catholic I've ever met is like, I think we're supposed to give this food to poor people. And every adult convert is like, the archon of Constantinople's epistle on the Pentecostal rights of the Eucharist clearly states women shouldn't have driver's licenses. Absolutely. That is exactly the difference, right? If you think about your Nona's Catholicism, it was probably a lot about community, right?
and about going to Mass because it comforts you, and charity a lot. This is a Catholicism and a religiosity that is in many ways taking the most draconian and text-based aspects of evangelical Protestantism. It's a lot of Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine and quoting Latin stuff.
which is very divorced from the way most
cradle Catholics experience their Catholicism. You point out in your piece for Vox that while there aren't tons of Catholic converts out there, there are some particularly loud ones like our very online vice president. Are the converts creating tension in parishes around the country and dioceses around the country? Or is this something that you mostly experience online? I mean, I think online is a definite place that gets experienced the most.
oftentimes because cradle Catholics don't really run across these converts unless they're online. Parishes tend to be pretty divided between cradle and convert Catholics. So you have these kind of historical parishes in communities or largely immigrant parishes where cradle Catholics are going. And then you have these convert parishes, essentially. Yeah.
So in real life, these people aren't often encountering each other. And then they encounter each other online. And I think there's some real shock on the part of a lot of cradle Catholics and on the part of convert Catholics, right? Because I think there's some disappointment when you convert to this kind of
What you think is this idealized medieval whatever you've made up in your head. And then you encounter real people who just do not understand this thing the same way you do. Yeah, what's the draw for the converts? I mean, there's any number of religious sects you could glom on to if you're looking for some sort of sense of community or theology. Why Catholicism and why, you know, the theology of Thomas Aquinas? I think it's an anti-modernism thing.
So if you have come to believe that the problem with the world is modernity and change, looking to institutions that seem to defy modernity and change becomes appealing. I mean, if you think the problem is stuff changes, you're going to start looking for the things that change the least.
And yet it seems like the job of the Pope in this day and age is to bring modernity to the Catholic Church. And that puts the J.D. Vances and convert Catholics of the world at odds with the direction of the Catholic Church? I think to save not just the Catholic Church, but to save Christianity in the West, in Western Europe and North America.
the church is going to have to reform. What that reform looks like, I think both Pope Francis and now Pope Leo have a certain vision of that that maybe isn't progressive enough for the progressives, but is too progressive for the traditionalists. But the reality is that for the church to remain relevant in the places that has traditionally been powerful, right? It is going to have to change in some ways. And that means that
that to keep those cradle Catholics within the fold of the church, the converts, largely in America, are going to be disappointed.
And I read that the initial reaction out there in Vatican City when they announced Pope Leo was sort of confusion, ambivalence. It was some people saying, an American? I thought they'd never pick an American. And he wasn't one of the favorites and all this stuff. But then he came out and he spoke powerfully. ...to build bridges with dialogue, with encounter...
about his ambitions and, you know, sort of carrying the torch for Pope Francis and the need to build bridges. And people were sort of sold on that in the moment. Do you think Pope Leo can build stronger bridges between the cradle Catholics and the converts? So I think that his life is one of bridge building.
He is, if not a compromise candidate, he is an institutional candidate. He has served in a role that is essentially that of a diplomat, right, for all intents and purposes. And that is about negotiating within the institution various positions and interests and conflicts.
That is a very valuable skill for anybody, but I think for the Pope at this moment, that is an extraordinarily valuable skill. And because of that, he has the capacity within the institution, at least, to build those bridges, make those connections, and maybe sure up the fortress for whatever comes next.
And how do you think he does that? I think, you know, I mean, I'm glad I'm not Pope to do that. I think he will continue to pursue probably in less volatile terms,
Pope Francis's strategy of pastoral compassion paired with doctrinal conservatism. Those two things can coexist side by side, and perhaps the only way to keep Catholicism relevant and alive in these different and competing factions, when you have these big tent institutions like the Catholic Church, is an approach like that.
Catherine Kalaitis wrote about the cradles and the converts for Vox.com. The piece is titled The Hidden Religious Divide Erupting into Politics. At the end of our conversation, we asked her who's headlining day two of Catholic Coachella. Who?
I'm going to go have some drinks with some Franciscans. You have not drank, so you drink with priests. Any priest can drink you under the table, I guarantee it, and I don't know how hard you can go. Chin-chin, girl. Amanda Llewellyn and Avishai Artsy produced today's show. They had help from Jolie Myers, Laura Bullard, Gabrielle Burbay, Andrea Christen's daughter, Patrick Boyd, and the two of us. I'm Noelle King. I'm Sean Ramosroom. This was Chicago Pope. ♪♪
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