205. Why your team zones out when you talk (And how to fix it in 2 minutes), with Dr. Cheryl Robinson
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So I did write down a sentence that shows how you can tell when people want to sound impressive, but all that comes across is a bunch of nonsense. So per our synergistic approach,

I'll proactively interface with cross-functional stakeholders to ideate scalable solutions that ladder up to quarterly KPIs. And these are things that you hear recent graduates and newbies into industries say.

Poor communication costs American businesses $1.2 trillion a year. That's trillion with a T. For the average employee, that's around about $12,000 in wasted time and productivity every single year. And as you just heard, it's not about the major miscommunications. It's about the everyday corporate speak that makes smart people sound clueless.

Today, we're revealing the truth behind why some people sound authoritative at work, while others get completely ignored, or worse, people laugh at them behind their back.

This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist. My name is Al. I'm a business owner. And today we're giving you a communication masterclass that will change how you sound at work.

Our guest today is Dr. Cheryl Robinson. She's interviewed over 700 people for Forbes magazine, earned 35 editors picks and discovered exactly which words make you sound incompetent, even when you actually do know your stuff. After this short break, we're going to be kicking things off with a masterclass on how not to introduce yourself.

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Welcome back. Let's go and meet Dr. Cheryl Robinson. And as promised, we start with some tips on how not to introduce yourself. We're talking about communication, right? So here's a tip I'm going to give everyone. When people ask that question, tell us a little bit about you. They start with, well, 20 years ago, I worked at this company, no one cares.

So people should start with a snapshot. So hi, everyone. I'm Dr. Cheryl Robinson. I'm an international speaker, founder of Creative Renegade Media, and I am a regular contributor at Forbes, where I have interviewed over 700 individuals and have earned 35 editors' picks. So what that does, what a snapshot does,

is it leaves the other person room to ask questions, to get to know you more, because people care about what you're doing now and not what you were doing 20 years ago. But that snapshot, then when they ask you questions, well, how did you get to where you are?

Then you tell them about the 20 years ago and that shows them the foundation as to why you're doing what you're doing now. There's some lovely psychology here. What Dr. Cheryl just demonstrated is a clever use of both the primacy and recency effects.

which are both examples of cognitive bias. So in English, that basically means that our brains are wired to latch on to what we hear first. That's a primacy effect. So when someone leads with their current role, it gives us a clear anchor to make sense of who they are. But we're also more likely to remember what we hear

last. That's the recency effect. So in this scenario, end with a strong statement about how your journey shaped you to do what you do today better than anyone else, because that is what sticks. It's the middle bit, all those titles and milestones that we tend to lose because to be honest, they're just not that interesting. So if you want to leave a powerful impression, structure your story with intention, lead strong,

end strong and keep the middle bit short. And from a business perspective, this obviously saves everyone's time, including yours, because if you're a networking event, for example, you can have three meaningful conversations instead of just one where you ramble on. Plus, people are going to learn to avoid you. Dull people aren't interesting.

And here's the deeper issue Dr. Sherrill's addressing. Most workplace communication is driven by insecurity and overcompensation. People use complex language when they feel uncertain about their expertise, which backfires spectacularly because your colleagues are thinking, just tell me what you actually do. Let's hear exactly which words are sabotaging your credibility. Can we talk for a second about

about the words that kill your authority, because this was one of the things that we first came across you with. We're talking about particular specific words. I've got written down here that you once wrote, stop trying to sound impressive and start sounding useful. Can you start off by telling us what you mean by that? Yeah. When you listen to newbies and industries, recent graduates, they use a lot of fluff and jargon.

that should not be added into sentences. And you want to show the value that you bring and what current project for the company you're working on. So I did write down a sentence that shows how you can tell when people want to sound impressive.

But all that comes across is a bunch of nonsense. So per our synergistic discussion, I'll proactively interface with cross-functional stakeholders to ideate scalable solutions that ladder up to quarterly KPIs. And these are things that you hear often

recent graduates and newbies into industries say. There is so much in that sentence that could just be cut down to talking to our partners, and we'll get back to you on what we're working on. That is how you can break down that sentence.

And I wrote an article about how when people use fluff words or too many fluff words, too much jargon, that it makes you sound like you're new and not know what you are talking about. And as you climb the ladder, people get more to the point. Is it an insecurity, do you think, that people are trying to hide behind these fancy terms? One, I think it's insecurity.

Two, I think that it's just people thinking that they are, quote unquote, the best thing that's ever walked out of college.

And three, I think it's what they're taught. And when you have young professionals going to networking meetings for young professionals, this is what you hear all the time. But instead of going to young professional networking groups,

They should be going to just regular networking groups. And then they would understand, oh, people above me at different levels, they speak differently and they act differently. But when you have a room full of early 20-year-olds, that's all you're going to hear. So you think that's the correct way to do it. So what about another one of my bugbears, the corporate speak, the I'll circle back, we'll revisit in Q2 and all this?

bullshit. Tell me, you're an expert in this. Why do people talk like that when they clearly sound like an idiot? They do it because out of habit. And everything that we do, even as leaders, is rooted in habit. So if you...

have received praise at a meeting where that may have been one of your phrases, you're going to keep saying it because who doesn't like to be recognized, right? Who doesn't like the pat on the back of

But there is the corporate jargon that it needs to go. 100% needs to go. So imagine you are in one of those organizations where everyone else does talk like this. And they're saying, well, we do this, we deliver shareholder value for contextualized, etc. And then you just go, well, all I do is I just make sure that your sales graph goes up and to the right. I would feel like

People are going to think I'm stupid in that organization because I don't talk the same way as they do. So I feel differently. And I'm going to use a fluff jargon word that needs to go. But I would feel like a trailblazer in the corporate or in that corporation because I think so many people think it, but they are afraid to just say it.

And we've all been in meetings that should have only been an email. And how many times do people rely on the small talk when all you want to say is, here's why we're here. This is what we're doing. And you would be the hero of that meeting. So I always tell people that you can say, I bring value.

but where's the data? How do you bring value? So by saying, if everyone else is saying, well, I bring value to the stakeholders and this is what we're doing. When you come in and directly say, I've raised sales by 93% for X company and our projected rate is at another 50% for next month,

oh, OK, next, move on. People are going to applaud you because the meeting is going to go quicker. People often use big words when they're feeling insecure. Psychologically, it's a form of masking or self-protection. If we're not sure we belong in the room, then we try and prove it by sounding clever. But here's the catch. Research from Princeton shows that this has the opposite effect.

Overcomplicated language makes people think you're hiding something and that you're less intelligent. So if you want to build trust and credibility, keep it simple. Yeah, and we've already found out that senior executives become more direct and

As they gain the confidence because they know their time is valuable, they cut straight to the results. The highest performers don't say things like I strategically leverage cross-functional synergies to optimize revenue trajectories. They say I increase sales by 90%. Yeah, and communication isn't just about word choice. Dr. Cheryl's about to show that knowing when to stay quiet can be just as powerful.

Strategic silence is a leadership skill. Was that something you said? I did, yes. Being a great listener, there's value in that, especially in leadership, because it shows that you genuinely care about your team member and that you're giving them that space to share feedback, to express how they're feeling.

And a lot of leaders are used to just constantly speaking. And it's like being in a relationship, especially a new relationship where there's that awkward silence. And it's, should you say something? Shouldn't you say something? When studies show that if you can be comfortable talking,

not talking, being silent around someone, that means that your relationship is extremely strong because you could just be in each other's presence without having to fill that air. And I believe that to be true in leadership, that there is a time and place when you just need to take a step back,

and listen to what is going on around you because that's where you're going to learn the most valuable information that is going on with your team. If I'm a leader sitting in a meeting, there's six people of my team around us and we're all talking and I'm using this strategic silence to allow them to talk so I can listen. I think I might be concerned. They think I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know anything. So that's why he's staying quiet.

Am I thinking about this the wrong way? Yes and no. Because my follow-up question to you would be, what is your relationship with those team members? Have you built trust? Are they open with you in general? Do they support you? Do they manage up? And if you answered yes to all that, then no. I don't think that they think you're an idiot.

I think you're doing your leadership thing. You're assessing the situation. You're listening to what they're saying. And then you could be one of those quiet leaders who then all of a sudden say something so profound, the whole team goes, oh, yeah, we never thought of it that way. Yeah, this is what we need to do.

But now if you're one of those leaders who you just use the jargon, the fluff, whenever you talk, you never ask them how they're doing, what stress they might be under, what are some of their project challenges.

Yes, I think they would think you're an idiot if you're not saying anything. Let's imagine that someone is now sitting with their senior leadership. So there's all their bosses and their bosses' bosses, and they're at the table, and they're a little bit excited, intimidated, but they also want to play the strategic silence from Dr. Robinson's playbook. You shouldn't be silent the whole meeting. You shouldn't interrupt anything.

You also shouldn't use the jargon. And I think when you become a leader, you know when to interject. Or let me rewind. Good leaders know when to interject. And I don't think they see silence as weakness. They see it as you're waiting for your moment where you're the expertise to

to chime in as to what to do. I think a lot of times, and this is just my personal belief, is that when you get to those C-suite level positions, they do invite a lot of people to meetings and there's so many chefs in the kitchen.

that they don't know how to handle it. So if you're one to just be self-aware and know when to interject, I think they see that as great leadership and someone that they can trust because you're not just trying to fill the air. You're not just trying to BS them with fluff words that mean absolutely nothing.

But when you speak, it's valuable. So let me tell you a story. And I learned this early on. I interviewed this woman probably month three of having my column. So I was a newbie. I asked her, so briefly tell me how you got to where you are today. And typically people take about five minutes to share that story.

She took 45 minutes. Now, bad on me. I should have cut her off at marker 10, but I just let her talk because there were some key nuggets, you know, in there that of information. I was like, okay, but she talked and talked and talked.

And after that, at the 45 minutes when she was like, oh, so what are the other questions you have for me? I said, no, we're good because I was so zoned out at that point. But I said, I will never, ever do that to myself again. And the best interviews I have last 10 minutes, if they know how to share their stories, they

10 minutes, we're good, and we're moving on. Have you got any tips or any perhaps some magic phrases that people could use, which is a nice way to say, dude, just stop talking for a second? I feel like we should be so blunt. Deep in my heart, I wish people could be blunt. What I would say and what I do say during interviews when I need them to stop their train of thought is,

is I say, excuse me. I do say, this is interesting, and maybe we can talk about this later on in the interview. I would really like to talk about what you said five minutes ago about X. So in meetings,

I don't think it's rude because you know those ramblers. You know the people who like to share every minute detail. And it is, excuse me, thank you for sharing that. Can we now shift our focus to X? And when you add the can, you're opening up that question as if you're giving them the control.

even though you really had that control. And from my perspective, it is not rude because you can always tell them, we can talk about this afterwards for right now.

Let's talk about X. I have got a note down here that smart leaders skip small talk. Now, I understood that as like, hi, Sandra, how's your day being? How's day the dog? That's not what you mean by small talk, do you? No, it is. Small talk helps. Small talk definitely helps build relationships within the company. But it also, there's a time and place for it.

And if you're early to the meeting, I am chronically early all the time. So I plan my schedule so I have at least 15 minutes before my next meeting. That's when the small talk should happen. That's when, hey, what are you watching on Netflix? What's your latest favorite song? But as soon as that time comes, it should just be, we're all very busy.

We don't have that much time. Let's get to it. It's when the meeting starts and the leader opens up with, so what's everyone doing for the weekend? Oh, now you're in for the long haul. You know this half an hour meeting is going to turn into an hour meeting and now you have to push things back. So there's a time and place for the small talk and I

I believe people respect leaders more who are punctual. At least I do. So if I'm 10 minutes early to that meeting, yeah, I'm talking about Netflix. I'm talking about what I'm doing for the weekend. But when it comes to that meeting time, get to the point. Let's move on so that we can accomplish things. There are

have been studies where corporations have scheduled so many meetings, it leaves zero time for the employees to actually work on their projects. So there, I've interviewed a company where they said every single Wednesday,

no meetings on the book. They cannot meet with anybody, anyone, because that is their productivity day. Because all their other time is just overloaded with meetings. Is there anyone who, any organization you can think of which has nailed this meeting? I know that Basecamp is very famous for having asynchronous communication, no meetings. Is there any company you can think of that does this really, really well? Honestly, no, no.

I think that's one area of business that people, if someone could find an actual formula that works, I think they would be a gazillionaire after writing that book and that formula. Let's imagine the prime minister of the UK just suddenly appoints you the minister for meetings. And so you are allowed to set, you're allowed to set the criteria for a meeting. Then it's illegal to break some of your rules. What sort of things would you mandate? You have to be there at least five minutes early.

If you don't get to the point, we cut you off in two minutes. Because unless if it's this ginormous presentation that you're rehearsing for fundraising, people should be able to convey their message in two minutes. And if you cannot, you're getting cut off and you can share the rest of it in an email.

And no meeting should go over 15 minutes or in half an hour, depending on the level of severity of that meeting. Dr. Sherrill just revealed something really crucial about workplace dynamics. Comfortable silence signals established trust.

But only if that trust exists already. Without it, staying quiet can make you look like you're a bit out of your depth. This is about perceived competence. When people trust your expertise, they interpret your silence as thoughtful consideration or reflection. When they don't, the same silence reads as confusion or incompetence. Also, notice the psychological framing here.

can we creates collaborative language while establishing control it's what researchers call soft authority leading without triggering defensiveness after this short break we'll hear five of the most powerful words you can use in the workplace don't go anywhere

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Welcome back. So when you do speak, Dr. Cheryl says there are five specific words that instantly boost your credibility. One of the articles you wrote was about the five words that successful leaders use. And we even did this in one of our news roundups. I think that's how we met you in the first place. Can you just tell us what the five words are and why they are so important? Because, together, curious, noticed, and yet. And yet.

Because, think about it, if someone says, you're fired, and that's the end of the sentence, well, why? So you want to add that because, because it gives the why. And then when people have the why, they can get behind you. Maybe not why you're fired, but around other stuff.

Together shows the collaboration. We're all in this together. It's not me versus you. Curious, it's not, oh, that was the most stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone say.

which would not make you a popular leader. But if you say, wow, I'm really curious of how you got to that conclusion. Can you share more? That opens people up and lets them explain their why. And I like to use the word, oh, that's really interesting. Like when I'm very confused about something, that's very interesting. Tell me more about it.

noticed everyone wants to get recognized. Who doesn't? And the more you can, as a leader, you say, you know, I really noticed that you have been making more sales calls this month. That's amazing. That boosts their morale and then that makes them, their productivity level increase. And yet you

People, it's like, well, we can't do this project yet. And the yet shows them, hey, the company is open to doing it. We just have to figure out at what point versus no, we can't do this project. Well, why? Tell me, right? Like, where's the because? Where's the why? So those five words, if leaders can start putting that into their habits or making that a habit,

they're going to see their team increase in productivity and the trust as well. These five words trigger positive responses. Curious activates exploration rather than defensiveness. Noticed provides recognition, which releases dopamine.

because it satisfies our brain's need for curiosity and causation, yet it transforms rejection into possibility. And of course, you're also going to get better results because instead of arguing about decisions, you're actually building buy-in from your team. But workplace communication has become much more complex. We're managing generational language gaps, digital tone issues, and cultural communication habits that might be undermining your authority.

Yeah, what happens if you're a Gen Zer and you've got older colleagues? Should you be adjusting your language? What if you find yourself constantly apologizing at work, even though there's nothing really to apologize about? And do emojis have a place in the modern workplace? It irks me when women constantly apologize. And there are some men who feel the need to constantly apologize, but it's mainly women. Self-confidence, yes, I believe a big part is developed.

I believe a big part is also your personality. And when, since how many generations now are in the workforce? Four or five now at this point?

When you have the boomers, and do you call that the boomers in the UK? You do. Okay. So first time I heard boomer, I go, what are you talking about? But when you have the boomers, and especially women, and I've worked with the older generation, the women constantly apologize, because that's how they were brought up. And I'm that gen F, I'm that

and that bridge gap that they have of Gen X and millennials. So I have learned, I used to apologize all the time too, until someone pulled me aside in my mid-20s and said, stop saying you're sorry. There's nothing to be sorry about. It happened. You'll fix it. Move on. And that really stuck with me. So with the younger generations,

They like to come off confident. And some of them I think really are confident. The others, I don't think know how to navigate it. And I also think it's how you're brought up too. And what kind of work experience you have. But apologizing in the workplace. And that totally discredits your leadership. All you have to say is,

I apologize for this, or this happened. Here's how I'm fixing it. And you move on. We're all human. And when we can accept that, why are we apologizing for being human? No human is perfect. And when I mentor people,

younger people. That's what I say. Stop saying you're sorry. You're human. Shit happens. We've all been there. Move on. What I've noticed a lot of people are saying, things like they might come up and say, Cheryl, sorry, just a quick one. Is that undermining or is that okay? Because that's just the way we talk. Part of it is how we talk. If you're trying to be intentional and change your habit, so the Brits may be for...

generations and generations, that's saying sorry, even if you're not the one that did anything. I believe everything is based in habit. But first, you have to be intentional about the new habit. So there are people who you realize they're busy, you don't want to bother them. Instead of saying, I'm sorry, can you help me with this?

Because then it's like, oh, another interruption. You can go up to them and say, I know you're busy. When you have a moment, so you look at this, it takes the pressure off. One, as soon as you say you're sorry, you come across as weak. Two, now you feel bad for that person. And you're like, okay, now I got to drop what I'm doing. And I'm going to have to help them with this.

But if that person came to you saying, I know you're busy when you're validating that other person, you're saying, I understand. I'm right there with you. I need help when you have a second. So it's not urgent.

But I do need help with this. So when you can, and it takes down that wall, if you will, that is put up. I want to continue, if I can, to this generational thing.

multi-generational challenge we had a couple of questions on the workplace surgery around this and for those who've not heard the workplace surgery is basically where people write in ask questions i put them to liana liana's a psychologist replies and one of them was around the idea that they've got two or three sort of they call them gen zedders i'm guessing there was early 20s and then the majority of the workforce was sort of around about their sort of 40s 50s 60s

What these Gen Zers were doing were on group chat saying things like bet, cap, you know, all these sort of words that Gen Zers use all the time. And the other people in the office were getting annoyed going, just can you not just speak English? But the problem and the question I want to put to you is,

Who's at the fault here? Should Gen Z be using the language of us older people? Should we be adapting to the new language? How do we navigate this? This is tough. It is tough. I don't think that there is a right answer. There could be a good answer. And that is being self-aware, knowing if you're in a Slack channel with people

the whole company or team, and you know that the ages range, just be professional. When you're in a side Slack channel or WhatsApp group, and you know the people are your age or your counterparts, yeah, that's fine.

And even the older generations say things where younger generations go, what does this mean? And it's so ingrained in our vocabulary and how we talk. You have to be self-aware.

And that is what's lacking at all levels of the company is self-awareness. So the good answer for that is just be self-aware. And if you're in a large group chat, just talk professionally. You know, I have younger cousins. I go, what does no cap mean? What does spill the tea mean? Yeah. So out of the loop,

But I would never, I don't even use the lingo from my error when I know who I'm talking to or who's in that group chat. And that's what people have to be aware about. If we're told to bring our whole selves to work and then we're having to adapt to talk to different people, that feels like they're two sides of a coin. Bringing your whole self to work does mean that you're self-aware and professional. People...

Misconstrued what that means. Your whole self. Your whole self coming to work. Yeah, you could talk about your kids, your family. But if you're bringing your whole self, do you talk about your financial issues? Do you talk about the fight that you had with your best friend from grade school? Maybe. Maybe to a few people, but not to everybody.

So you're monitoring what you are saying or what you are sharing.

So I think that lingo, that professionalism, that is part of your whole self. And you should monitor that because you are monitoring everything else. Do you come to work letting everyone know in the company that, you know, for a woman, oh, I got my period. My cramps are horrible. I don't think I'm going to get this project done. No, you're definitely not doing that. So if you're

you're not doing that. You should be able to control how you speak and intentionally use words that everyone understands. Do you want to talk about emojis for a second? Is it cringe for someone older to use emojis, assuming they're using the right ones? Is it cringe for them to use them in text messages? When emails and text, you lose tone of voice.

You lose how the person says it and where you can hear their intentions, whether it's a joke or whether they're serious. And there's companies out there that tell people you must use emojis in your emails, in your email messaging. Yep. I'm not going to say which ones. They're very, very big brands.

But it's because so many leaders would message someone and the team member would be very upset because they thought the leader was mad at them or offensive or whatever the case may be. It's because we can't see their facial expressions. We can't hear their tones.

So they have to use emojis in their messaging so that people understand where they're coming from. And I think it's fabulous. Dr. Albert Moradians, he has the 70-38-55 principle rule where your message, 7% of your message is words.

38% is your voice and your tone, and 55% of your message is perceived by your body language. And when you're just talking about email or text Slack messages, you lose all of that. All you have left is that 7%, which is your words. So I think emojis is really good at helping get that message across.

Great leaders use something called contextual code switching. It's where we adapt our communication to the audience we're speaking to. And you do it all the time too, whether you realize it or not, the way you talk to your boss is different from the way you talk to your colleague or your best mate or your nan.

That is contextual code switching. And great leaders use it intentionally. It's not about being fake. It's a sign of emotional intelligence and genuine respect. Because the best leaders don't just want to be heard. They want to be understood. I remember Dr. Sheryl's rules about meeting. They're not about efficiency necessarily. They're about respect. When you protect people's time, they trust your leadership.

And this breeds reciprocity. When somebody respects your time, you're more likely to respect their authority. It's a fundamental principle of influence. Really, everything Dr. Cheryl has taught us comes down to one principle. Authority comes from making other people's lives easier, not from impressing them with overcomplicated vocabulary. You can, of course, find Dr. Cheryl on LinkedIn. Just search for Cheryl Robinson. And if you stick Forbes at the end of your search, she'll be the first one that comes up.

You can also go to drsherylrobinson.com where there's much more information about her. Let's just rejoin Dr. Cheryl for some final thoughts. If there was one thing that you wanted listeners to take away from this, just one change they could make, can you think of one? Be intentional with your words. Practice with a team member. Practice with your partner, friend, parent.

Be intentional. Take that pause before responding quickly. Take the pause. Say, what am I trying to get across? What words?

in tone, facial expressions is going to get me there, even if you have to use an emoji. And that's a point. Great communication isn't about sounding impressive or using all the buzzwords. It's about being intentional with your words so that other people feel valued and heard. So if you're a manager or a leader...

Ask yourself this, when was the last time you sat in a meeting and you really listened instead of just waiting for your turn to speak? And when you did speak, did you use words to be helpful or to make yourself look impressive? Because that's how authority is really built, not with impressive phrases or corporate jargon, but with respect. And respect is earned one conversation at a time. This is Truth, Lies and Work. We'll see you next week.