Ep 947 | Phil & Jase Won’t Back Down from America’s Surging Anti-Christian Movement
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I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. As we have explained before, Inside Baseball, we just finished the podcast with the Malones, and so we're starting a new podcast. But I was really...

impressed with their story. I mean, I've never even been around a real gymnast. No, and I was glad they were kind of transparent about it. You know, his dad was like, well, you know, when you're in the South, you play baseball, you play football, you run track.

Gymnastics? Eh, not so much. Yeah. More for girls. Yeah. But, you know, you see this guy, I mean, the dude's a man's man. Yep. No doubt about that. And what they do is incredible. And if you don't believe that, go try to get on one of those. Look, last night, Jace, he's in our living room.

And he's down on the floor teaching my grandkids these moves. And like I said, Doc has a little proclivity for it. He's really limber and does all these flips and stuff. But he would put his hands down on the floor and

and levitate the rest of his body up and then go into a full handstand. And look, I mean, it was muscle on muscle moving more muscle. I mean, the man is not only flexible, but you're about strong. Yeah. I mean, I can barely get up just to walk around. You know, I've got to grab a hold of something. But I'm watching this young man. I mean, it's a feat of strength what they do. It's amazing. I was genuinely impressed, and I think it just shows you –

how God works in mysterious ways. I mean, you kind of look at what we do. And the makeup of the human body.

Oh, you're exactly right. What you can do. And by the way, this is, I was, we never got here because we got into their story and just, you know, him going through his injury. And I'm so glad that JD talked about their mom and his wife, because that's a big part of their story. I was in the fact that it's kind of just dad raising his four kids to be great, you know, kids and really love the Lord is amazing. But I wanted to talk about the games themselves because, uh,

The Olympics have been around a long time, and then when we did 1 Corinthians, our study there, we talked about Paul in 1 Corinthians 9 talks about this strict training and running the race. He's given all these games analogy, and it's because there was some games that went on there just outside of Corinth on that little strip of land.

the Isthmus, they call it, that little piece of land. They had games there that they did in the off Olympic years. And so, and then there was another set of games that did the other year. So all the Greeks, you know, and then later the Romans, they were into the competition, the,

So this thing that Brody now has kind of brought into the unashamed world, it's been going on for a long time before Jesus even came on the earth. And what's amazing, that passage you mentioned, it says, this is 1 Corinthians 9, 24. Do you not know that in a race that all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way to get the prize. Everyone who competes in games goes into strict training. And you heard this guy say,

Three to six hours a day. Every day. And that doesn't include his PT and everything else. Four years, you know, to get ready for this. Yeah. But it says they do it to get a crown that will not last. You know, the bronze medal will not last. That's right. But we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

Therefore, I do not run like a man running aimlessly. I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I preach to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. But I just thought, here's a guy doing both. And so here's a little quote I had Jason in our notes. The winners of the Ithbean Games that we're talking about received a wreath of celery. Oh, wow.

You're talking about disposable. You put celery in the bottom of your fridge. It doesn't last long. You wear it, I guess. And then you snack on it. You wouldn't take a picture back then, but I guess someone would draw you. That could be the way you capture it. And then I guess you just eat it. You just make you some ranch dip. So then it says later the wreath was altered so that it consisted of pine leaves from the Isthmian pine tree.

And so, I mean, literally it was pine needles and celery. That was the crown. So, you know, again, it really makes that verse come to life because he says, this is a crown that won't last. Yeah, really. How long to pine needles and celery stalks? That is very quick. That's quick. But he's saying ours is this crown of glory, which is pretty amazing. I thought it was a neat story. I mean, it's revitalized how people can look at something and you kind of have a stereotype in your mind.

And then the Lord kind of turned that on its head in my view. No, and that's exactly right. And then his brothers, you know, they all grew up because they have a horse farm. And so they grew up around horses and roping and rodeoing and all that. And one of his brother next to him, Brody's brother, Connor, he's very good at all that. He's won a bunch of awards. So these are successful kids.

and what they do, but then obviously when you meet them, the heart of them and the dad, you can see why, you know? Yeah. I mean, y'all only got a snapshot of they've been here all weekend. Yeah. And, uh, just very authentic, real God loving, very humble. Yeah. So it was great. I mean, my, my daughter, you know, Mia, she was enrolled in, uh,

gymnastics and you know they do what they call tumbling and Missy was saying that was gonna happen where's my daughter who everybody's familiar with her story she's had so many surgeries and and it's just that's at the forefront of my mind and I that was one of them things I agreed to missy's like yeah I put her in gymnastics well the first time I saw her perform she took off running on the track at their school and

And then just started flipping just over and over and over again. And it literally terrified me. I thought, what in the world did I sign off on? Because I thought one slip up, one slip of the hand and we're back at the hospital. It's pretty incredible. She's always had her neck for that kind of stuff. But I noticed in her case, she

She had gone through so much, she was kind of fearless in that she just thought, well, the worst thing that happened is I have to go have a surgery. But I've already had a dozen of them. She said 10 or 12. That's not very... So why not just go run and turn and flip about 14 times without stopping, you know? Tough-minded little girl. Well, I know. And I'm just saying these people that do that, it doesn't seem that dangerous.

until you're a parent watching them do it, and you're thinking, boy, this is, I could see how injuries could happen. Well, I didn't ask him on the podcast, but last night I was asking him a lot about the women's team because they did great, and they've been historically really good. And this little Simone Bowles, who was all around and won all this stuff, and she won a lot at this Olympics. I was like, I mean, she's tiny. She's like four and a half feet tall. But she's a 27-year-old woman.

And she's married to an NFL football player. And it's amazing story, but I don't know anything about her personal life and all that. But I know when I watch her, I was like, she seems to be going higher and further than anybody else. He said, she's,

She's beyond. Some people just come along and they can just do this in a different level. That's what he described her. So it is pretty amazing when you see them jumping and flipping and doing the things they do. You would think they would get hurt a lot more than they do, but they really don't. They're just little small balls of muscle. Yeah, that's why I was bringing up when you were talking about the different events because I was going to say, well,

You see why they have different events. Like the ballots being...

That's not going to work for males. No. Because you know how this is going to end. And just like a pommel horse wouldn't work well for women. They don't have the upper body strength, which is another one of these things about keep everything male and female. That's better. But I was saying, if you get up on the balance beam, you're obviously not going to be able to stay there. There's going to be multiple falls. But the way that apparatus is set up, it's not set up for the physical anatomy of a male. I mean, Dad, you know a 2x4. So you flip a 2x4 over.

That's what we're talking about. I mean, and we're running and flipping and jumping and then doing flips off of it, off a two-by-four land saddle. Yeah. I mean, it's just amazing. I mean, having said that, in my world, in the duck hunting world, I wish I had his skills. I bet that joker can climb a tree. We're going to see him. We're going to see him. When they come back hunting, we've got to film him retrieving some ducks. We're going to see if we can put it in. Well, because most of our duck blinds are elevated. Yeah.

And they're basically a lot like the apparatuses he's flying around. He may can just take off running, Dad, in that blind and then just flip right out into the decoy. I think he could. Yeah, he didn't even have to. I think he could get on the, like, the elm hole. He could get on the top.

And he could just dismount. We're about to have, we're about to have. Because he wouldn't have to stick the landing because there's mud. We could launch a whole new Redneck Olympics and it could start with duck bind mounting and there could be all kinds of. Yeah, if you filmed that, people would watch that. This is duck hunting gymnastics.

It was born right here on Undisputed. When this happens, we don't know where it started. Where's Zach? Every time I have a TV or movie idea. He's gone. He's off doing Zach things. All right. So we got one of our favorite guys here in the studio. He's been here this weekend with us. And he's going to take Zach's spot and take us up a couple of notches.

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Phil, you guys got to check this out. Well, with this, we're sharing Jesus. That's it? On a, you know, media, public.

About a show. Well, neither one of us, none of us has to say is me in the next segment. That's a hard one. That's all behind us. Ismus. Ismus. You have to say it like you're from San Francisco. It works better. Exactly. So welcome Kyle Thompson to Unashamed. Kyle is, I thought about this. So we only have two sort of returning contributors on the Unashamed podcast. And they're both from Oklahoma.

What are the odds of that? Larry Bowles. There's something about Oklahoma. It's a great state. It's something special. It's that red dirt, baby. Come on. We love Oklahoma. And there's a lot of ducks there now, too. All the ducks have shifted over. Now, how long have you been hunting? Because is this a new phenomenon for you since you met us? Right. So I did not grow up in a family that hunted, fished, camped, any of that. He sends me pictures all the time of ducks. Right.

And you were born in Oklahoma? Born in Oklahoma, yeah. So I'm like, none of that makes sense. You're like a rarity. You're like a yuppie Oklahoma. Isn't that kind of weird? Oklahomian? But I had Oklahoman. But I had the same number of country friends as I had athlete friends, as church friends. And so I just never went with the country friends to do country stuff. And so I missed out on the hunting, the fishing, the camping, all the outdoor stuff. Well, what did you eat?

So food from a grocery store that somebody else butchered. I know it's like a lot of steaks. This man can eat some serious steak. Yeah. I mean, my steaks are usually like bicycle seat size. But, you know, now I'm actually trying to take care of the animals myself. But, you know, I have I have two boys. I've got a four year old and a two year old, and I didn't want them to grow up.

wanting to hunt but not hunting because I always wanted to hunt I always wanted to fish I always wanted to do all these things but I didn't really have anyone that could take me or show me or teach me and so I'm making all these like stupid little kid mistakes as you know my 20s and 30s so that I can like show my boys and so I can take my boys out places with these experienced hunters so that they can you know really get after it and learn all this stuff so yeah didn't do it as a kid but I'm doing it now so that yeah I mean the idea I that

two guys from Oklahoma, you know, but it's partly because of what you guys do. So you have a podcast, Undaunted Life, which is aimed at men, and I guess specifically Christian men. I mean, is that kind of, tell a little bit about it, because a lot of our listeners cross over and listen to you, and your stuff is amazing. Yeah, so it's Undaunted Life, a man's podcast, and it is explicitly for Christian men, and I kind of realized accidentally earlier this week that it's

It's the top podcast that's made just for Christian men. Now, we cover faith, culture, politics. It's not always gospel. It's not always what's going on in the news cycle. And we have interviews. We have Bible study. We have news cycle stuff. But basically, Undaunted Life is here to equip men to push back darkness. So we're going to talk about the stuff on the show that's going to lead to that end. So we might touch on a really, really controversial topic that we know most of these guys as pastors aren't going to be talking about. Yeah.

And so a guy actually came up because I went to church with y'all this weekend. And so I got to experience it. It was your first time at WFO. Yeah, first time and got to hear you preach. And that was amazing. But a guy came up to me afterwards who's a fan of Undaunted Life. And we got to talking a little bit. And he goes, the way that you say things, it kind of puts it.

It puts words to what I've been thinking and feeling my whole life. So whether I'm talking about Christian worship music, or I'm talking about how most men's ministries are just women's ministries repackaged for men. Right. And so it's like similar content. I've never heard that, but now that you say it, it's true. So it's women's content, but it has like wood or, you know,

metal or something. Motorcycles. Yeah, motorcycles. Look at that. And so it's all the aggro stuff, but it's just like pretending. And so I'll say things like that and a guy will be like, oh my gosh, I've never like been able to put words to that feeling. I always thought that I was weird. And so, but on the show, yeah, we, again, it's just faith culture politics. We try to cover it in a way that's unique, but we model similar to you guys. We do something on Sundays called the forging table where we just work through books of the Bible one hour at a time, one chapter at a time. And,

it's given guys permission to get in a group as non-theologians, non-professional Christians, and just to sit in a room and like reckon with what the scripture says. And Hey, this guy likes to read commentaries and that guy likes to, you know, just read it over and over and over. And this guy, you know, does something a little different. And so we just try to model that because we, we don't think they're getting it anywhere else. No, that's true. Which is really what we do, you know, that made me think back to when I first became a Christian, you know, I mean, I was 14 years old and, uh,

Phil and them kind of went in with some others and started this whole church. But there just wasn't, I mean, how many people went there? About 40 or 50. 40 or 50. It wasn't exciting. I mean, I'm a teenager. I'm going to public school. It just, it was difficult. And so after a couple of years. Most of them had been in very traditional churches. And so it was a little bit, you know, kind of like that. Well, after studying my Bible and getting to know Jesus better, which has been a theme in Ephesians.

I just realized, I think I'm supposed to live my Christian life out in the world. Yeah. And so that transition for me was difficult. But as people started coming to the Lord and as I got older, I started doing things that were unorthodox to Christians.

church ministries, I guess. So one of the things I did was we'd go to a pool hall and we'd have the new Christians there because that's where they went. And it wasn't, you know, they served alcohol. I mean, you could make a statement where there's a bar, but it wasn't a...

People just didn't go there as a honky-tonk type bar. The predominant thing there was pool tables. Well, you know who took me there for the very first time? Our preacher. Was our pastor at the new church. We moved from the little church.

He took me there. Because he had a real heart for taking Jesus into wherever. Right. Yeah. So that was the way he functioned. And it really helped me because I realized, and we went, Jesus with the tax collectors and sinners. So when we...

brought to the Lord the greatest pool player around in that area. He came to the Lord, and I was like, what do you do? Because his family wasn't Christians, none of his friends, and it was that we're teenagers, we're men, and I'm like, what do you do? He's like, I play pool. I was like, well, are you good? He's like, oh, yeah, ain't nobody within a hundred-mile radius can beat me. So we started taking him to the pool hall,

And we would, you know how people play pool to make money. And so we would pay $20. But if they lost, if our guy won, they didn't have to pay the $20. They just had to listen to a 20-minute show.

There you go. Seriously. So we would gather up and it was exciting. And you don't find that in the Bible. No. And so I'm sure, though, if somebody... You were talking about the retreats is what made me think about that. Somebody drove by and saw us walking out. They'd think, oh, my goodness. But, Jace, that's actually the point. It's because...

So y'all have heard me tell this, I probably told this on the show before, I became a Christian as a 15 year old. So right around the time I'm trying to learn what it means to be a man, I'm now trying to learn what it means to be a Christian. And so the conclusion I came to is that you just can't be both. Like you can't be a manly man and a godly man. Like those things are separate. The manly men are outside the church doing man stuff.

Godly men are inside the church, like, you know, wearing khakis and limp handshakes and like touching you while they pray on you. And it's like, it's just weird. And so it wasn't until I started like what you said, reading the scripture for myself. And I'm like,

This Middle Eastern Jewish construction worker guy seemed pretty rough. Like he seemed to say things that really got people flustered. He seemed to make demands of people's behavior and their hearts and to require change. And he didn't seem to be like this, you know, wispy haired Danish guy that we see in all the pictures that was just like, just wanted you to have a good time and didn't want you to feel condemned and just wanted you to just be fine. Almost androgynous.

is the picture they present. You know what I'm saying? That's that word for the day. I've never used that word in a sentence. Well, not being able to tell male or female, just softened. So we soften the lion of Judah so much to where we don't even notice that he's around anymore. And the thing is, is like, you know, I have this little thing that I have on my phone. It's a lion for them, lamb with them. And that's my reminder not to be harsh with my family.

Because the thing is, is my boys and my wife, they need to know that the lion's available because if they don't know that the lion is available, they're going to be anxious. They're not going to know, they're not going to feel secure. But if the lion is all they ever see and they never see the lamb, then they're going to feel just completely dominated and ran over and they're just terrified.

And so you get that from actually reading the scripture from yourself, but taking the gospel to the pool hall, for me, taking it to a jujitsu gym, taking it to a duck blind, taking it to those different places that you wouldn't see as a traditional place where ministry is being done, but that's where the gospel spreads. So that's where we got to take it. Oh, exactly. That's why I like that guy who won the bronze medal. I mean, I thought, okay. Yep. I mean, here's a spirit-filled guy who is unashamed of his faith.

in a world where I really just didn't think that was going to be possible, you know, and I was fascinated. But I told you that story. I remember one night we had a guy who was, he was, you know, drinking beer. We made the bet, you know, two out of three, 20 bucks a game or a 20 minute presentation. And my buddy who was a recent convert,

He broke and ran out both games. The guy never shot. Yeah. He never picked his pool stick up, which is, just think about this. Not only did you lose. You never even participated. You didn't have a chance. He could have been playing no one. You're out. But he was so impressed. I remember we walked out and he took it. Nobody said anything about drinking beer. And this guy fires his beer across the street, just throws it.

And he said, he hadn't heard what we were going to say yet. And it probably hit the back wall of Ms. K's... It was right by that. It was right by where Ms. K's... Right behind that. That's true. And I remember just thinking, he has no idea what...

what we're fixed to say but he's already ready to make a life change and all we did was but you know what he didn't hear didn't hear any funky language you know we we had fun he just witnessed something incredible that i'm sure he thought no man of god can

Can play pool like that. But as a guy who loves pool, what he saw was the best of what happened. But this guy also had to be a new believer. Well, and so we shared Jesus with this guy. And now we're on up into 12, 1 in the morning. We take him and baptize him. And I'm like, here's where we meet. Same church building where you met at.

Because it was a Saturday night. We'll see you in the morning. Well, he didn't show. And I thought, that's puzzling. Well, I never hear from him again. Time goes by. Years go by. And one morning, I think it was three or four years, one morning on Christmas Day, I get a knock at the door. And it's this guy. And I did not recognize him.

I thought, who are you? It's Christmas. And back then, we weren't famous or anything, so I didn't think it was a fan. There's nothing to be a fan of. And he's like, well, he had his Bible in his hand, so I took that as a good sign. And he said, you remember me? And I was like, nope. Nope.

And he said, I was that guy that night that threw my beer. I was like, well, his name was Bobby. I was like, well, Bobby, I'm still waiting on you to meet up the building here. It's been a few years. He said, well, you're not going to believe this. Next morning, the law came and got me and took me to jail. I've been in prison.

Okay. That's a decent excuse to miss church. Exactly. True story. So he literally became a son of God and then went to prison. And you know what he said? He's like, if there was ever any doubt that God works in people's lives, he's like, I just, as I'm sitting in my jail cell, I thought, well, thank you, Lord. So Zach, our good friends out at Focus on the Family, I can't.

I can't say enough good things about them. And they've been really sort of that standing in the gap group that has been there for families for really a long time. Yeah, they're great folks over there. I know you've become good friends with Jim and the whole team over there. Yeah, they're so good to work with. They've been with Lisa and I on a couple of our book projects. And they've got a new podcast that we'd love for you guys to check out. It's called Focus on the Family.

with Jim Daly. Every episode of this podcast is designed to help you confidently guide your loved ones through unique challenges they're faced by today's Christian families.

Culture has changed. The word of God, of course, doesn't. And we need to talk about it. With decades of trusted, compassionate stories of redemption, Jim Daly connects you to biblically sound advice on marriage and parenting that is relatable, practical, and interesting. It's not just another podcast. It's really a lifeline. So whether you're dealing with just everyday stuff in your family or you're looking for guidance on complex matters, Focus on the Family is there to support you every step of the way.

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Yeah, but I just thought, you know, I mean, we went off the rails there. But it was one of the most incredible things that I ever saw because here's the thing. I'm just, you know, it started at a pool hall. It was fun to us because our guys just destroying everybody and we're sharing Jesus. We were more into that part of it, but then it became real.

I mean, you talk about laughing, but the guy spent three or four years in prison. He's like, because I said, well, did you do it? He's like, oh, I was guilty. Yeah. But like, think about the people he was able to share Christ with while he was in there. So I had a, not a similar experience to that, but I was doing a speech in Chama, New Mexico. It's kind of a rough part of New Mexico. I think the majority of children in that community live with their grandparents because their parents are either incarcerated or have, you know, left them. And so I'm leaving New Mexico and I'm at this kind of sketchy gas station and

And all the credit card machines aren't working. And so I go inside and I get my, my gas moving or whatever. And then behind me, I hear, excuse me, sir. And I'm immediately thinking, okay, here we go. I'm going to get some sob story. Someone needs money, someone, whatever. And I turn around and it's this little guy and he's covered head to toe in tattoos.

And i'm kind of a weirdo. I love you know, whether to greet him or read him Well, and it well the funny thing is I decided to greet him and read him Yeah, because because i've watched all these prison shows i've watched all these gangland shows and all these prison gang shows Like and if i'm lying i'm dying. I literally recognized immediately that this guy was clicked up I knew which click and I had a pretty good idea what he was in for. Yeah, right And so I'm like, hey, what's up? How can I help you? And he's just like look

My you know, I only have a card my wife and son got in a car accident. They're in albuquerque right now I'm, just trying to get to him like can you help me out? And so it was like okay, this is something's going on here So I kind of help him get his gas going and i'm literally putting the gas thing in in his car for him And again, i'm keeping an eye on this guy and I just look at him and I go. Hey, man, were you clicked up? He's like, yeah, man. I was clicked up and he didn't tell me he had been in prison I was like, what were you in prison for?

And he told me, double murder. I went in in like 1998. He's like, I just got out. This is 2024. Right. So this guy was in for a very, very long time. And I'm like, all right, well, we're this far in. Let's just kind of go for the swing for the fences here. I go, hey, man, when you were in prison, did you ever have any chaplains or anybody tell you about Jesus? And he goes, man, whenever I was in and I was at my lowest point, one of the homies.

One of the homies told me about Jesus and gave me a Bible and I got baptized. And he's like, when the homie gave me the Bible, I told him, look, man, I'm illiterate. Like I can't, I can't read that Bible. And so one of the homies, one of the OGs of this particular clique would read the Bible to this guy so that he could learn the gospel so that he could be able to share with other inmates.

And you talk about this guy's life and you look at, you know, his tattoos and you look at some of the decisions that he's made and you just see where the gospel will shine through in a moment like that. He found Christ in prison or Christ found him, whatever your theological persuasion. But like he comes to Christ in prison in one of those moments. And I immediately thought, Phil, of the advice you gave me before I went and spoke up in Lewisburg, up in Pennsylvania, to where it's like you can be under lock and key, but you can still be free.

Right. Yeah. I gave that same message to the guys down here in Louisiana at Angola. And it's just it's one of those moments to where like, hey, for some of you guys, like life is going to befall you and circumstances are going to go differently for you. And even on our drive in today, Al, it's like one of these days doing a podcast like this might end up laying in one of us in prison. And we better be comfortable with the idea of having a prison ministry if it comes to that. Yeah. That's what we say. And I was thinking about your podcast. It doesn't say Undaunted Church.

It's his undaunted life. And that's so true because we've taken everything and tried to make it just about, you know, an established church or, and look, we all are members, we're all part of community and Christian community and churches. But what we're talking about on your podcast and on our podcast is living it every day and being Christ in whatever circumstance that he puts you in.

to be that guy or, you know, or to be that gal. So it's so important to realize that. And you're not shirking one for the other. You're saying both. And I want Christian community. Yes. I mean, I love our church. You were there yesterday. It's a great place. It's great people, but it,

It's everyday living is where we impact folks. It's like whether it's a pool hall, whether it's in prison, no matter where it is. I mean, it's kind of where we're at in Ephesians. It is. And I thought about that. I looked down at that text and I thought, man, that's exactly where we are in Ephesians 4-7. Yeah. Well, he starts off in 4-1 saying, as a prisoner for the Lord. Now, he was a prisoner because of his faith in Jesus, which is not too big a stretch even in our current culture. In America, you think, well, I'm not going to go to –

you know, prison because of my faith, which I do think it does happen in some weird ways, but across the globe, it's happening. And I think we, to be quite honest, this is what Kyle and I were talking about driving down here today because of what we're seeing in so much political anarchy in our culture. I can see the day where whoever's in power tries to put the other people in jail. It happens all around the world.

Why would it not happen in America? I mean, we're seeing it happen where you just go after somebody because you don't agree with them and put them in jail for something they may or may not have done. There's levels of persecution. And in America, we say the word persecution because someone maybe leaves a mean comment on our Facebook when we post a scripture. Yeah, that's not very personal.

Yes, that's persecution. But when you say that word, it means something to other people. Because if you're in Nigeria and you're in a village and Boko Haram comes to town, like they're not just going to burn your church to the ground. They're going to put all of you inside of it, lock the doors and then burn it down. And so it's like we're not under the same type of persecution. But there have been some things that have happened for me, like our credit card processor dropped us this year. And after a bunch of back and forth with them, it became apparent it's because they didn't like our message. They didn't like the things that we were saying. And they thought that...

Apparently they didn't listen to the show because they thought I was just gonna roll over and play dead and not say anything about it And it's just like again That's not the same thing as being concerned about your your family being killed or you know Your daughter's being taken or something like that But we all have to reckon we have to pre decide that when the persecution comes to our doorstep how we're gonna react because so many people are like well, I'll just see how it goes in the moment it's like

When the moment has come for you to act the time for preparation is gone and so you will fall to the level of your training or you will fall to the level of your cowardice or courage and you know 2020 I think was a wake-up call for a lot of pastors and a lot of people that allowed daddy government to tell them whether or not that they could come together as the body of Christ and I think there's a lot of places that aren't gonna allow for that anymore and I think there's gonna be

A lot of pastors that will acquiesce, and then there's a lot of pastors that will be opening vibrant prison ministries because it's like, yeah, you can arrest me, but you're not going to tell me what to do. We kept taking them and baptizing them. We told them. We said, the government says that you're not to even be here. I said, but I'm here to tell you.

Oh, God. Dad kept saying it's hard to baptize somebody six feet away. Yeah. Oh, I know. That was a good rant you were on, Phil. Phil was like, I know. He would say that as he was baptizing them. I know the government has said I'm supposed to be six feet away. And this could kill you. Yeah. But what we're doing here saves you, so that's way more important. Well, we went through all that, and you said, did anybody get sick? No. Yeah.

Well, I was telling Kyle, everybody got a pass for early because we didn't know what was going on and we thought it could be something that kills our kids. But now that we know and we know about government control, no. We're just like, no. We're not going there. We're not going under the thumb.

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Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. I appreciate you bringing that up a minute to go back to Brody. We were talking about him and being in that world of gymnastics. And I was asking his dad, I said, well, because Brody wasn't with us. I said, so what's Brody going to do, you know, going forward? He said, well, I don't think he's sure he's fixing to get married. And I said, what's his degree in at Stanford? You know, cause Stanford's a very accomplished university. He said, well, it's in like finance or something like that. And so he could do anything.

I said, what do you think he'll do? He said, well, you know, I'm not sure. He said, but I hope I'm his dad. So I hope he opens up a gym and teaches kids and then makes a difference in their lives seriously. And he said, you know, but he said, but I'm not going to, you know, try to force him to do that. He's a grown man and do what he wants to. He said, but I would love to see him do that. And then last night when I was watching him with all those kids in that living room,

I thought, man, dad's on to something because that's an opportunity to impact for kingdom reasons, something that people would really be, you know, and he's good at it. You know, my grandkids loved him. I mean, they just immediately flocked to him. So he's got something to do that. So I definitely, since he was on here, I'm definitely going to be praying that, you know, God guides him to something like that where he can implement that going forward. So, but that's another example of what we're talking about with the gifts and abilities that God gives you.

Yeah. And that's what this text is really saying, right? Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing is that, you know, when you see that, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling and for one as a prisoner. I do think he was talking about the overall, he was summing up the first three chapters, which overall, uh,

God has called all humans to a life in Christ because of who he is. And so then I think, you know, when he makes that mantra statement of saying, you know, be unified in the spirit through the bond of peace, there's one body, there's one spirit there. Just as you were called, there it is again to one hope when you were called because that called is in there a lot.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father of all who is overall and through all and in all. That's like the, the overall things that unifies, you know, the spirit, the

Jesus as Lord. And then it's like, but to each one. So then it's like, okay, you have this group of people, the kingdom of God, the body of Christ, the church, and we're unified in the call of Jesus. But then it's like, but each one of us, grace has been given as Christ has apportioned it. And then there's a kind of a difficult passage here.

Because it said he refers to, where's that at? In Psalm 68. He quotes that and it says, this is why it says when he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men. What does he ascend to mean except that he also descended to the lower earthly regions. He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens in order to fill the

the whole universe and just a little quick thing on the psalm 68 so you have this passage that is obviously about moses through the lord uh leading the people out of captivity right and then he but he's also using as it does in the old testament because it is about jesus coming

comparing that to the whole humanity being liberated from their bondage of spiritual captivity. Because we said, I mean, we studied Hebrews, that the whole situation with Moses and Sinai and Israelites and coming out of slavery was all just a shadow of what Jesus was going to do for all humanity. So this is like the new exodus, the new creation. The reason I said it was controversial is

is because if you go back and read this verse 8, when it says he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men, if you go back and read Psalm 68, it actually says he received gifts. And so every scholar in the world is like, oh no, Paul misquoted Psalm 68. So then you get into this verse,

apologetic argument over the scriptures. Was this a poem that, but when you think about, it's very difficult to read. The reason people don't hang out in the old Testament is because it is the story of Israel. It is God, you know, not being pleased because they rejected him and they weren't faithful and they were having wars and all these things were, were happening. And in that moment, you have David, uh,

you know, singing these psalms saying, why don't you protect us from our enemies and all these things? But then it's flavored with this futuristic language about there's one coming and

That is going to redeem us and all this. So that's why it's kind of hard to wrap your head around. To me, my take, you've probably read it also, Al. Paul's capturing the transition, I believe, that happened in that

Yes, he received gifts because they were thankful that he would lead them against their enemies and all that. But this plan involving Jesus and this new liberation would be one where he would give gifts. And I think it's a reflection of the Holy Spirit because I think that's where the gifts come from. And, you know, Jesus being exalted, given gifts. And in this case, it's actually people that he says. He says, you know, give gifts. And then he gets into that next step.

uh section which is why i think it's the spirit because it says in verse 11 it was he who gave some to be apostles some to be prophets some to be evangelists some to be pastors and teachers well these are spirit-filled people and this list is not inclusive of all there's different lists that include other other people first corinthians 12 comes to mind you might have some others but

I mean, I was going to get y'all's take on that, but I guess I'll read the last verse just to kind of get the context. Then it gets into what we've been talking about. To prepare God's people, in verse 12, for works of service.

so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and the cunning and craftiness of men and their deceitful scheming. Instead,

Speaking the truth in love, which to your point, which is what we're discussing, we will in all things grow up into him who is the head that is Christ from him. The whole building, I mean, the whole body joined and held together by every supporting ligament grows and builds itself up.

In love, as each part does its work. So, like, that brings up the other controversy about this section of Scripture, verses 1 through 16, which is that sometimes having a disputatious nature is a positive as it pertains to the spreading of the gospel. And so what I was reminded of, even reading the section again this weekend, was what did Paul do when Peter went astray? Did he, you know...

go and just pray by himself and not make any actions and just didn't want to rock the boat and wanted to be known for what he's for and not what he was against. No, he opposed Peter to his face and he said, look, yeah, you have, you have created gospel plus, right? So, you know, $9.99 a month and you get gospel plus. That is what, you know, Peter had created at this moment.

And he's like, wait a minute. Yeah, you have added something to something that can't be made any sweeter. And so we opposed him. And how do we know that Peter accepted the rebuke? Because when we see in Acts, by the time we get to the Jerusalem council, Peter had fallen in line and opposed the circumcision party, opposed the Judaizers, and he was ready to go and he was on the team again. But some people would look at that and be like, well, that just didn't seem very Christ-like. You know, he went and he just opposed him and that was probably really uncomfortable. And like...

The thing is, is those things happen. We also see in Acts 15 where there was a dispute between Paul and Barnabas over Mark, because at some point earlier in one of those earlier journeys, Mark had quit for some reason. We don't know. Was he homesick? Did he get sick? Was he tired of walking around? We don't know. And so they're ready to go again. And Barnabas is like, hey, we're going to bring Mark. And Paul's like, no, we're not. And then we can see that they had conflict before.

for an elongated period of time and they ended up splitting. So Paul took Silas and Mark went with Barnabas and you would think, oh, this is a net negative. No, it became divide and conquer, right? We see all those different things. Like also look at, you know, when Saul was persecuting Christians and murdering them and basically being like, you know, first century Osama bin Laden, it caused Christians to spread out all throughout the area. And you know what they did as they were spreading?

They were setting up Ecclesias after they were spreading the gospel. And so it was one of those moments that if that persecution hadn't have happened, the gospel would have spread in a different way, but it didn't spread in a different way. It spread in that way. And so the dispute, if you're always default negative, default aggressive, looking for a fight and trying to be a Theo bro and constantly argue with people that don't have correct theology and they don't have the right, you know, thoughts on eschatology or whatever,

Like, okay, but at some point you are going to have to put some relational chips in the middle of the table and get after some people. And it's not for the sake of your ego. It's for the sake of the gospel.

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$45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speeds lower above 40 gigabytes. See details. You and I were talking on the way out here about the importance of understanding how you framed it and what you just said. That in the first century, there was no church.

Every place they went was new with the gospel. Nobody ever heard it before. Churches hadn't been established ever. And so now they're being established for the first time. When you fast forward 2,000 years and you read these texts, the church has been here for a pretty good while, 2,000 years. So now what happens is I think a lot of people take passages like this and they put it back to where all this happens in church only. Mm-hmm.

And so it doesn't apply to me outside. That's why you got my church life and they've got everything else. But think about it. We've missed the whole point of what he was saying. The reason why he said he took when each one of us grace has been given and then those gifts were given back to us, that's everybody. Right. That's every person. So we do it through the prism of church and we miss the context of what was happening in that day. Right.

And so I agree. So they kind of had the church concept in that. I think like you brought up Mark and you're like, well, you know, what was the problem?

But there was so much persecution, and we're talking about real persecution, in that people die and people go into prison. Because the Old Testament, even from these religious people, their method was, if we think you're violating the law, we'll stone you. Well, that's persecution to its highest form. If they deem you as some kind of insurrectionist to their faith, they'll kill you.

So here's this group of people saying, oh, yeah, we agree that that was the same God we're discussing. We're just telling you he became a man. And we have that little phrase, you know, speaking the truth in love. And most people go there and then include the whole Bible.

And then have all these theological disagreements. And well, I'm speaking the truth in love. But he went on to say, and we'll get to it at some point, but I want to read this because I think it's profound. In verse 20 of chapter 4,

He gets into this point about you, however, did not come to Christ, come to know Christ that way. And he was making a reference about some of the Gentiles had hard hearts and their thinking was wrong and they lost sensitivity in what was evil. But he says in verse 21, surely you heard of him. Now he's talking about Christ and were taught in him.

Because that's a major theme of Ephesians, that in Christ, in him, in Christ, in him. I think it's mentioned a dozen times in the first 10 or 12 verses. In accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. And so if you look at what he's dealing with here...

This opposition is coming up, one, from the Jews, because they're like, well, we've got this all figured out, and he's trying to introduce Jesus into that concept. And if you deny that Jesus was who he said he was, well, you're going to want to persecute those who are claiming that God became a man. They thought that was just absolutely crazy. And that's the backdrop. But I think we could...

implement that in our current temple church setting, because a lot of people have all this and you're like, well, where's Jesus in all this? And just to give you an example of what I'm saying, I mean, the last argument I had about a week ago was with a guy who

who he was telling me what they were doing i was going to go to visit one of their bible classes and he's like well you got to be a member of the church and uh i kind of hesitated because i thought well i'm pretty sure i'm a member of the church the lord added me to the church he's like well no you got to be a member of this church all you got to do you fill out a form i was like are you serious he's like well it's it's for church members only i was like

I'm a member of the church. I actually went to Acts 2 where it says the Lord added to the church. And so then it developed into an argument. I said, I think you got this backwards. I was like, you can't try to get people to come and join your church and then share Jesus.

Isn't that backwards? Aren't we supposed to be sharing Jesus and people come to Christ and the Lord adds them to the church? Wow, it's what you said from the pulpit yesterday. You're like, this isn't the church where you get cleaned up before you show up. Like, you just come on in the door. And that goes back to the speaking truth and love. I think most people think that means speak truth and love.

softly and that the loving way to do it is always soft and always more kind of casual, not caustic or causing any issues. Sometimes speaking the truth in love is big and bombastic and it creates some more issues. Like when iron sharpens iron, like what do you think happens when iron sharpens iron? Like, is that like a soft, quiet process? No, like this is a process where there are sparks, there's fires, there's discomfort, it's loud, it's uncomfortable. But I thought speaking the truth, it would have been easy just to say, okay, well you go do your thing.

But I think that's what was going on here. I mean, everybody has an idea of how life should go, and especially in the religious world, and people are very opinionated. And somehow or another, what comes out of the book of Ephesians was this unity in who Jesus as Lord is, and that we have his spirit in our inner life.

And so I do think a lot of the opposition was from a religious standpoint. But meanwhile, you know, to your point, Al, we're supposed to be sharing Jesus. This is available for humanity. God did this for all of humanity. And the reason we have the spirit is to be Jesus. And the picture, the picture he shows is a picture of diversity and difference. And yet you find unity in that. The way I outlined those, those verses you had, was there's one gift that,

of a diversified people. There's one in the idea that we're all brought together in Christ, but then he turns around and has diversified gifts for one people. We're all different. So we're one, and yet we all have a different gift. So I think I spent many years as a pastor and to our pastor friends out there listening, the work you do in the church is blessed work and amazing work. And I did it for many years and it blesses people and it finds people in a lot of these texts apply directly to that.

But when you think of it in terms of a kingdom, that then all of a sudden a lot of other people get to use their gifts, not just through a church setting. And that's why I think of Undaunted Life or Unashamed Podcast or whatever different ways God's using to impact people. In fact, I looked it up. I want to read this for you. But in what you said, a church setting...

does not even line up with what the church is. I mean, the church setting is people who have the spirit. Yes, right. And so like, to go back to my pool hall- And by the way, they're prepared for the works of service. Church leadership only prepares them to do it. That's a key point. That's exactly where I was going. Look, at that, the nights we spent at the pool hall-

The church was actually meeting in a pool hall. Yes. It's an ecclesiam. Yeah, exactly. I'd have been different if, you know, a guy, because usually, you know, if you get somebody, which I just had a confrontation, and this is a good story for, I mean, this happened two days ago, and I'll...

Tell it where, you know, we won't identify me because I'm not going to betray the confidence in one of these conversations. You tell it in 30 seconds. We're out of time. But the conversation went a lot like this. I shared the gospel with a person who's not a Christian. And he's like, hey, part of his defense was I saw one of your members the night at the bar. You know, he was trying to pick up some woman.

I was like, well, what's that got to do with you and Jesus? I got off that. So we're having one conversation. But however, the next time I saw the fella that was brought up. Different conversation. I had a very uncomfortable conversation and it did not go well. Yeah. And I basically just said, look, I'm sharing Jesus with a person. He saw you. He was like, well, yeah, I mean, I go there just, you know, I go there to share my faith.

And, you know, he kind of went that. I was like, you don't have to justify anything to me. I've shared Jesus in various settings. I said, but I just wanted you to know that somebody was using you for an excuse on why Jesus was not appealing. Do with it what you will. But I just felt as a brother in Christ.

I needed to bring that up. And it was not easy. It was uncomfortable. But it was required. It didn't go well. And I thought, but this is out of love. I don't want this guy. What if this is true? I'm not judging him. I just said, look, I just wanted to let you know that's what happened. And I didn't go any further from that. And that's called speaking the truth in love. So we're out of time. But I wanted to read this because I looked it up, Kyle. Because we're Unashamed Podcast, your undaunted life podcast.

Undoubted means not intimidated or discouraged by difficulty, danger, or disappointment.

I mean, what a great title for what you do. If we're going to push people to have a resilient life, not strong lives, because strength always wanes over time. Father time is undefeated. But you can have the ability to bounce back spiritually, mentally, and physically, and that's what we're here to try to help guys do. I love it. So Undaunted Life, check Kyle out. Great stuff. It's always good having you, brother. Thanks for having me. All right. See you next time. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed Podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes.

And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes. And for even more content that you won't get anywhere else, subscribe to BlazeTV at blazetv.com slash unashamed.