The Poetic Wealth of Nikki Giovanni
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I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday story from Up First. I always like summer best. You can eat fresh corn from Daddy's garden, and okra, and greens, and cabbage, and lots of barbecue, and buttermilk, and homemade ice cream at the church picnics.

These are the words of the great African-American poet Nikki Giovanni from her poem, Knoxville, Tennessee. She died earlier this week at the age of 81. Nikki Giovanni was called many things. The poet of the Black Revolution, activist, spoken word artist, cultural icon, children's book author, professor, Christian, radiant voice of Black joy and struggle.

To me, she was also an unapologetic truth teller. And some of her words and poems, I could feel them at a molecular level. That's how much I related to them. Giovanni grew up with an alcoholic, abusive father in a house without indoor plumbing.

And while she was never afraid to explore those hardships in her poetry, she also celebrated what was beautiful about community, food, and family. Earlier this year, my colleague and host of the podcast, Wild Card, Rachel Martin, spoke to Nikki Giovanni. Today, we bring you this incredible conversation.

Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind? No. Well, I'm surprised by that answer. Huh? No, because it gets you caught up in your life, and that's not what you're looking for. Your life is not about your life. Your life is about your duty. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation.

Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. My guest this week is poet Nikki Giovanni. When you look at the stars and then you think about the other life forms, you think, well, there is something else. I can't quit now. There is something else.

There are so many words I could use to describe my guest today. Poet, revolutionary, queer icon, feminist, space enthusiast, mother and grandmother, legend. Nikki Giovanni is all those things. But she is also a woman who figured out really early that she didn't have to apologize to anyone for who she was or for what she wanted from her life.

She can write poems that look directly at all the pain and hatred in the world. And she can write children's books about feeling safe and loved. She can also conjure what it will look like when humans set up shop on Mars and black women lead the way. Nikki Giovanni has just been doing it her own way all along and writing it down so the rest of us can start to see beyond ourselves and whatever hard thing we happen to be stuck in at any particular moment.

Nikki Giovanni, welcome to Wildcard. I'm so glad you're here. Oh, thanks, Rachel. I'm glad to be here. So I understand you turned

You turned 81 on June 7th, am I right? 81. I can't believe it. I used to say all the time, I really liked old age. It was a good idea. But 80 really kicked my butt. And I'm hoping that 81 is a lot better. I just got out of the hospital about a week ago. I'm just old. And I was dehydrated. And I had to go to London twice.

And I like London, but flying back and forth is, I know I could have swam, you know, I would have been better off. There you go. There you go. So are you a person who enjoys a good birthday party? Did you have one?

I am not, and I did. I just have... No, you know, parties are work, no matter what anybody says. But we played bid whiz. I have a bid whiz group. And we played... I don't know what that is. That's a card game? It's like bridge, only for more intelligence. Okay.

If you do, say so yourself. We're going to get letters on that one. And my dear friend, whom I love so much, Javon Jackson, came down. And Javon doesn't go anyplace without his saxophone. So he plays sax. He plays dinner sax.

And so that was very nice because there was no work I didn't have to do. That sounds like a good birthday. Yeah, I was glad to be out of the hospital, and I was glad to be with friends, and I didn't have to get dressed. I did shower, but I didn't have to be dressed. I get it. I get it. I'm so glad you're out of the hospital. I'm glad that you're doing better. Thank you.

Are you a game person? What do you think about this? Oh, I love games. You do? Oh, sure. The Weakest Link, Jeopardy, The Wall. Yeah. All right. I'm into it. So let me explain how this is going to go. Okay? Okay. I've got a deck of cards in front of me and each one has a question on it that I would love for you to answer.

I'm going to hold up only three cards at a time. And then you, Nikki, are going to choose one at random to answer. Okay. There are two rules. You get one skip. If you use your skip, I will swap in another question from the deck. Okay. And rule number two, you get one flip. So you could put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do.

And we're breaking it up into three rounds. Okay. Memories, insights, and beliefs with a few questions in each round. And because it's a game, there's a prize when you make it to the end. Ginger cookies. Ginger cookies. How did you know? Oh, I wish I'd made you fresh ginger cookies. I love ginger cookies. Soft kind or crispy? Soft. Soft. Always soft. Like my grandmother. It's not ginger cookies. I should just tell you right now so you can emotionally prepare. I'm leaving. I'll see you later. Bye.

Okay, so this is the memories round. Three cards to choose from. One, two, or three? Of course, two. Of course, two. You said that like everybody knows it's two. It's the best number. Well, I'm a baby sister, so I'm number two. I get it. Okay. Were you ever obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid? Yes, I wanted to know why Mars was red.

And my obsession was that there was a war on Mars and that they had developed atomic energy so that Mars burned itself up. And as I lay in bed for most of my life, actually, to look out the window, I have seen Mars, which is why I talk about it a lot. And I would like to go to Mars because I think that as a black woman, my sisters and I could build a community.

And I love that you have planted that idea in our collective consciousness and have written a lot about it. When did Mars come into your head? Do you remember? Like as a kid? How did you even... I didn't think about Mars as a kid. How did it capture your imagination? I'm a baby sister. I shared a bedroom with my big sister. She wanted the bed...

by the wall. I don't know why, but that gave me the bed by the window. And so I would look out the window and watch the stars. And the stars haven't changed. So you have to ask yourself, what are they telling us? What am I learning? Did fixing your gaze upward make you feel safer? I mean, you had a tough home life. You've talked and written a lot about that. Did thinking about the planets, the cosmos, the universe change?

Did that help you escape whatever was going on at home? Well, my parents had what I would call, in nice words, troubled marriage. And what space let me know is that this could not be the end. And thank God I did have a grandmother. And I went ultimately to live with my grandmother. But...

When you start to look at the stars and then you think about the other life forms and you think, well, there is something else that I can't quit now. There is something else. Three new cards. Okay. Same drill. You pick one, two or three. I guess I should take one. Okay. Let's do one. What's something you thought was normal about your childhood that you now realize was unusual?

Probably the most unusual thing about my childhood was that I recognized that my parents' marriage was not my business because it was unpleasant. Saturday night at 11 o'clock, I was listening to my father beat my mother. So that's unpleasant. But you also recognize it has nothing to do with you. It was none of my business.

And I didn't believe Ozzie and Harriet or Father Knows Best. I didn't believe any of that. I still don't think that there's such a thing as a happy family. Because that wasn't your norm. So you assumed that all families to some degree were broken in that way. Yeah, they're crazy. And so the best thing you can do, sometimes you need to walk away. You need to find friends and get rid of the family because the family drives you crazy. Just because you happen to be born.

We've got to take a quick break, but when we come back, I ask Nikki if she is afraid of anything. And her answer may surprise you.

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Now we move into the second round. Oh. The insights round. This is stuff you're learning now, stuff you're working through now. Okay, three new cards. One, two, or three. Remember, you have a skip and a flip. You don't have to use them. One, two, or three. Well, let's go for two again. Okay. What emotion do you understand better than all the others? Patience. Patience.

I'm incredibly patient. It takes a lot to really push me. Where does that come from? Well, I don't know. I'm the baby sister of two. So that teaches you, one, you're always watching your big sister because they're always so wonderful. They're prettier. They're more intelligent. Everything. In your mind, yes. And you want to say, well, one day I'll grow up or whatever. But...

Most of my friends are older. I have very few friends who are my age. I'm 81. Right. It's a long life already, Nikki, 81. And most of your friends are older than that. Some good longevity. Well, I'm hoping that Aunt Sarah, who was my mother's great aunt, and nobody liked Sarah, by the way. She was a despicable person. But she lived to be 100.

So I do want that dream that lets you live to be 100. I think it'd be interesting to see what's happening at 100. My kids asked me that recently, if I wanted to, you know, not just to 100, but like, would I want to live forever? And then, you know, that's an interesting question to talk about with kids and how having a finite end to life sometimes creates appreciation because you think things are going to end, you know?

But I said I would do it with some caveats. I just want my health. I want my body to still work. I don't want things falling apart on me. Things are going to fall apart. And so that's, again, one of the things that you can hear in my breathing. It's because of the pneumonia. Okay.

And that'll go away. This will get well. But I'm not afraid of, you know, being blind. I have a friend who's losing her sight and it makes her very uncomfortable. I think it's what an opportunity to now see the world in a different way.

I mean, look at Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder. So you say, well, they couldn't see, but look at what they created. So obviously they saw something. And I'm not afraid. As I said, 80 kicked my butt. I mean, if it could be wrong with me, it was wrong with me. And I was thinking, okay, well, you know, I had cancer. I had lung cancer and I had breast cancer. And I said, whatever happens, I don't want to read anything.

I don't want to be sitting – well, I'll be sitting in hell because I don't think I'm going to heaven. But I don't want to be sitting in hell. And they say she fought cancer for, you know, 20 years. I'm not fighting any disease. I'm learning to live with it. And I want the disease to live with me. So every morning that I wake up, me and cancer, we're in good shape. And I say, well, let's take a shower. Go about our day. Let's do our life. Yeah. And one day we won't. And then that means –

that I'll be transitioned. I'll be in another place. And that's what, you know, I'm talking about my grandmother, but that's what I think about grandmother, about Sister Althea, who was my eighth grade teacher, and I loved her so much. But I don't think they're not dead because they will never be forgotten for me

And I find myself, if I'm not careful, and sometimes even if I am talking to them or they're talking to me, you know, you're never alone when you have somebody like that around you. Yeah. Are you afraid of anything? Well, I'm very cautious around ostrich when I was on, you know. Nikki, what are you talking about? You're afraid of ostriches? Well, yeah. You ever been on safari? They are mean. No, they are mean. And that kick will kill you.

Ask a lion. If you had to put a lion against an ostrich, the lion is gone. That's why you don't see lions. That was just like not where I thought we were going to go. Oh. No, I like it. I like it. I mean, it's real. That is your fear, the ostrich. Yes. You have to be very careful around them. I'm not afraid of lions because lions are an intelligent being that unless you're threatening them, they're not going to bother you. Right. But the only ostriches I've had

In relation, you know, it's been unpleasant. And I'm lucky that they didn't get to me or they would have killed Thomas and my son and I on safari. You have to be careful around ostriches. People need to know that. That is a good and unexpected public service announcement that you have provided, Nikki Giovanni. Okay, next question. Three more cards. One, two, or three? Let's do three. Three. Okay.

In what ways do you choose to find joy? Cooking. Cooking. I love to cook. Do you? I really do. I cooked with my grandmother. And my mother could cook, but not as well as my grandmother. And I didn't cook with mommy. I watched mommy cook. But I cooked with grandmother. And I would be the one. She used to be the one. I hope nobody's upset. But...

You know, you'd go and get the chicken. We lived in Knoxville. And so you'd have to go. Yeah, you'd get good chicken. Chicken was unfortunately for the chicken alive. And so grandmother would wring its neck. And then I would be the one to have to pluck it. And I learned to pluck the chicken. But I also learned to cook chitlins because I learned to turn the chitlins or intestine. I learned to turn them inside out and pull the fat out. But I also learned to break chicken.

string beans and to do when you do that you want to pull the string out so I love every every time I'm cooking something I'm thinking about grandmother and how she did it and what I love that you know it's like she's with me yeah it's like it you know but I do it makes it always makes me happy and um I like other people's cooking sometime but mostly if I have my way I do my own

You said that sometimes you catch yourself, or maybe it's not catching yourself, just sometimes you do just talk out loud to your mom or your grandmother. Does it happen when you're cooking? I don't know if I'm talking out loud so much as remembering. And you go and I made some lamb chops that I have to tell you were incredible. And I was trying to remember what it was that grandmother did. It was grandmother's grandmother. And I remembered, oh, it was she put a little cinnamon on it.

And so I put a little cinnamon and a little apple vinegar. Yes. Oh, God. They were so good. I thought, oh. You know, and I don't think I said aloud to grandmother, you know, look what I've done. But, you know, it's one of those, like, I didn't share. I have people. You just ate it for yourself. I didn't. You didn't invite people. They should go get somebody else. If they're hungry, go to Wendy's.

We've got another quick break, but when we come back, Nikki tells me about her belief system. Well, I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there's so many fools out there, but I am a Christian. This message comes from Energia, where everyone can invest directly in solar energy projects across the world's most profitable renewable markets. Since inception, Energia has helped investors realize a 12% return while earning steady monthly dividends. It's

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Make your money do more at Energia.com slash NPR. That's Energia, E-N-E-R-G-E-A dot com. Past performance is not indicative of future results. All investments carry risk, including the potential loss of principal. So now this is the beliefs round. Beliefs. One, two, three. Okay, three. Three. Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind? No. Why?

Wow, I'm surprised by that answer. No, because it gets you caught up in your life, and that's not what you're... Your life is not about your life. Your life is about your duty.

And so, no, I don't think about it, you know. Have you seen people get too caught up in preemptively analyzing their legacy? Oh, I've seen a lot. I know a lot of famous people, and they're all, you know, I wonder what my stamp would look like. I'll be dead, so it doesn't matter. No, I'm serious. Someone did not say that to you. Yeah. Oh, wow. And so you just look, no, no. I'm just glad when me and cancer wake up.

And now when me and cancer and pneumonia wake up, one day we won't. And I don't know, maybe I'll be sad, maybe not. I don't know. It's interesting. My friend Toni Morrison, whom I do and still do love so very much, and my favorite Toni Morrison, among other things, is Sula. And when Sula is dying, she says, oh, wait till I tell Nell, because Nell is her best friend. And she says, wait till I tell Nell. It doesn't hurt. Wait till I tell Nell.

Let me ask this question a different way then, though. I get what you're saying, that you don't want to get wrapped up in your ego. You don't want to think about, you know, whoa, I'm so important. People are going to remember me. What are they going to write on my tombstone? What are they going to, what all the great accolades are going to give me? But are there moments when you think back on your life and allow yourself moments to feel proud?

Oh, there are moments that I feel proud because I've worked hard. And I think the word that means, as you probably also have heard in this conversation, a lot to me is duty. Yeah.

And when I went to the opening of the African American Museum in D.C., you go around and around. I certainly recommend anybody doing it. And I had forgotten because a lot of those things I don't handle and I'm not interested in. I forgot we gave permission to use my poetry and we gave permission to use my – it's not something – if you start paying attention to that, you'll be crazy. And when I turned to the right, there was a photograph of me.

And I just automatically, and it brings tears to my eyes, I automatically just turn over my shoulder to my left to say, look, Grandmother, I did my duty. And it still amazes me that I did. I mean, I just, it's like she was there. I did my duty. And that's what matters to me. That's beautiful. This is the last one. Okay. Last question. Okay.

One, two, or three? Let's go two again. What belief helps you make sense of the world? Well, I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there's so many fools out there, but I am a Christian. And I think Jesus is a really interesting guy. I really am fascinated by the way he conducted his life. And I think 90% of all black women you would run into

Of Christians. We believe that he may not come. There's an expression that black women have, and I share that expression. He may not come when you call, but he always comes on time. So we've learned to wait on the Lord. And I think that that's the most important thing.

Do you pray? Oh, no. No, none of that. No, no. So how does that— I tell them go to church. Don't go to church. No. Don't pray. But there's still something about Jesus, the Trinity, God, a Christian God who you're into. Well, he's a very interesting guy. And, of course, when he did come from the— There are lots of interesting guys, Nikki, but like— No, there are not. Let's face that one.

But, you know, when he came out of the tomb, he went to Mary Magdalene. So the first thing he went to was a black woman. So you have to appreciate that. And I think that what he said to her was, you know, I've got to go. I've got things to do. But you call me. I'll be there. But just wait on the Lord. And all of the black women I know believe that. And it made sense to me. You may as well. He'll come when you call. That's why I have patience.

No question about it. You know, you wait. You want the Lord to do something. But I'm not asking for, you know, lottery numbers. You know, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not asking for, you know. Do Jesus help me win the super lotto? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, none of that. Please let me get well, you know. I don't, you know, I'm worried about this cancer. I didn't ask for any of that because that's a foolish thing to ask for. What you're asking for is let me.

continue my life of duty with grace. And that's all. If I can gracefully do what I have to do, I'm happy. Do you think there's such a thing as heaven, Nikki? Mm-hmm.

There's a heaven, and my grandmother's sitting up there. I'm going to hell because I hate my father, and I'm going to sit down and tell him why. But I'm sure grandmother and mommy will talk to Jesus or God, whoever's there. Let her come up and visit. And everybody knows I like champagne, so I'm sure they'll have a glass of champagne. And we'll sit there and talk. Well, you've got to go now. You've been here for two days. Yeah.

Do you actually think that? It doesn't matter what I actually think. It doesn't matter. What matters is what gets me through the next day. Well, you won the game, Nikki. So the prize, alas, is not ginger cookies. I know. It is a trip in our memory time machines.

So as your prize, you get to revisit one moment from your past that you would not change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger a little longer in. What moment do you choose? That's not only hard, but it's personal. And so I know what I would, but it's none of your business.

I want you to be in it now, though. Can you go there now in your mind? I go there quite a bit. You do. You don't need me to take you there. I haven't been well right now. I'm getting better, but I haven't been well. And so I stay in that place.

spot right now and uh, yeah, it works. My old ladies come through, you know, no matter what's going on, my old ladies are, I mean, I'm in the hospital. To me, I love hospitals because they're grandmothers, you know, and they come in the morning and they say, how's my baby doing today? But it's like all of these, not all, but a couple of old ladies that I've really loved and they're right there. They say, you know, you'll be all right. Don't worry about it. Well,

You don't owe me anything. You don't have to take me to your moment. But I'm glad that you can go there easily these days. Yeah. They're with me. Yeah. Well, it was my great pleasure to get to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. Oh, thank you. I hope I didn't sound too crazy, but life is a good idea. And wait till you get to be 70. You're going to love it.

Nikki Giovanni, poet, author, revolutionary, amazing human. Thank you so much for talking with me. Thank you. If you want to hear more from Nikki Giovanni, we've got a bonus question you can hear by signing up for Wildcard Plus. I asked her what her thoughts are on marriage. Well, first of all, it takes patience, of which I have a lot. And secondly, well, it's a good tax write-off, by the way. Oh, Nikki! Ha ha ha!

You'll also hear Ted Danson talk about adjusting to the world of adult responsibility. And you'll hear my reflections on how those conversations affected me personally. Wildcard Plus is the best way to support our show and support public radio at the same time. Go to plus.npr.org slash wildcard to join today.

Make sure to follow NPR's Wildcard podcast wherever you listen. This episode of Wildcard was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Barclay Walsh and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo, Justine Yan, Jenny Schmidt, and Liana Simstrom.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. We'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend. This message comes from NPR sponsor Merrill. Whatever your financial goals are, you want a straightforward path there. But the real world doesn't usually work that way. Merrill understands that.

That's why, with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Go to ml.com slash bullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner & Smith Incorporated, registered broker-dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC.

This message comes from NPR sponsor Merrill. Whatever your financial goals are, you want a straightforward path there. But the real world doesn't usually work that way. Merrill understands that.

That's why, with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Go to ml.com slash bullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner & Smith, Inc., registered broker-dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC.

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