Dear Prudence with Sam, Saeed, and Zach
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Hey, listeners, Sam, Saeed, and Zach here. And we have a very special announcement. Before we start the episode, Saeed, Zach, can you give us a drumroll sound? I

I'm just going to go. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, that was good. That was good. This summer, Vibe Check is going to have not one, but two live events. They're both coming up very, very soon. We are so excited. Pride is our month and we are in full effect. First, Boston, you can catch us on Thursday, June 22nd at WBUR City Space.

And then New York, our girlies there will be able to see you live in color in person on Friday, June 23rd at 92nd Street Y with special guest... Drumroll, drumroll, drumroll, drumroll, drumroll. Eee!

Pin Badgley. We're so excited to see him. Pin Badgley. Pin Badgley. What are y'all going to wear? Oh my goodness. I got something to die for, you know. I'm going to wear my best human skin suit. Can't wait. Can't wait. Listeners, fun fact.

these are our first live events ever, ever as a group of three people coming together. So please come out and see us. We can't wait to see you in real life. It's going to be such a good kiki. Click the links in our episode description for tickets to the show. We can't wait to see you there.

Hey, listeners, we have a very special episode for you right now. What you're about to hear is Saeed, Zach, and I guesting on Dear Prudence. This is an advice show by Slate. It's hosted by a friend of mine, Janae Desmond-Harris. We love giving advice and spilling tea, so y'all are going to love it. Enjoy. Welcome to Dear Prudence. I'm your prudence, Janae Desmond-Harris.

Today, I'll be answering letters about sharing food with ungrateful people, wanting to date a friend's crush, and a woman having an affair with a robot. Here to help me out are the co-hosts of Stitcher's Vibe Check, Sam Sanders, Saeed Jones, and Zach Stafford. Thanks guys for joining me. Thank you for having us. I'm already like ready to go because I was reading that one about the robot. Definitely a robot. We're already gagged.

I can't wait. I'm really happy to have all of you. And we're going to start off, before we answer the letters, getting into it a little bit the way you do on your podcast with a vibe check. Just let me know how you're doing. Accountability. Yeah, it's important. There you go. There you go. So let's start with Sam. Sam, what's your vibe? How are you doing? My name is Sam Sanders. And my vibe, as I was telling my co-host earlier this week...

My vibe is so ready for summer. I think we're going to have a full-fledged summer this year after years of the pandemic foolishness. And what's getting me ready for this summer season is

is like summer blockbusters entering my life again. I saw Guardians of the Galaxy earlier this week. I'm going to go see Fast and Furious 10,012 this weekend. I'm ready for Barbie. I'm ready for summer blockbusters. And that means summer to me. So my vibe is like, yay, hooray, summer. I love the idea of just sitting in an air conditioned movie theater. Yeah.

- True. - Yes. - It sounds really good. It's getting hot here. Yeah. - It is, it's great. - I do Alamo Drafthouse. So it's like a gourmet meal as well. You get you a boozy milkshake on top of that. Can't go wrong, baby, can't go wrong. - Yeah, I can't even sit in a regular movie theater anymore with like the non-reclining chairs and no food except popcorn. - I need a reclining chair.

I need a gourmet menu. Yeah. All that. All that. I love the whole, actually, I have to admit, I barely ever go to movies, but when I do, I want the whole comfortable food experience. Well, you have a kiddo, right? It's kind of hard to go if you're not going to a children's movie. This is true. Yeah. And honestly, I wouldn't even take him to a children's movie at this point. He screams, he squeals for no reason. So nobody would enjoy that. Not even other kids. Okay. Saeed, what is your vibe?

Hi, it's Saeed Jones. My vibe today... So I've had... It's just a lot's been going on this last month for me, but fortunately it is my secret favorite time of the year here in Columbus, Ohio, where I live because it's peony season. And I had some time this morning. I knew I wanted to go to like a coffee shop and get a little bit of work, but...

I just made time this morning to walk around my neighborhood, take the long way there and back, literally just looking for peonies in people's gardens. And I found some this morning. They were so beautiful. And I just, I don't know, it's just like a thing I've done since I've moved here. The neighborhoods that make up where I live, a lot of gardeners. And I just, I don't know, I just, it's like, it's simple and beautiful. And peonies are beautiful.

very dramatic flowers um very operatic flowers that aren't around for very long so i don't know it's it's a fun little exercise that like i love to mark this time of the year and then then comes like like the lilac trees but yeah i'm feeling good feeling a little spring spring breeze moment going for a walk sounds so great do you take a peony or two no like do you take one or two i mean you know is that a

I don't know. I will say because I think I've written a bit about it for like my sub stack and stuff. And so people will. So my dog passed away a couple of weeks ago. I heard on the pod. I'm so sorry. Thank you, Janae. That's really sweet. Yeah. So it's like obviously like I'm just I'm looking for love. I'm looking for beauty and peace where I can find it. And so.

It didn't even like occur to me that peony season, all this was happening at the same time. But people have been sending me pictures of their peony flowers in their gardens or where they're finding it. And I'm just like, ah, this is so lovely. Like this little random thing I wrote about over a year ago. And just like, you know, social media, there's not a lot of...

a lot of silver linings for us to point to but it's been just like a little sweet thing yeah yeah find some beauty anyway zach how's it going what's your vibe all right hi my vibe is i want to say frenetic i'm in new york city and new york and spring energy people are walking people are moving they're grooving they're living they're outside

And I live in L.A. most of the time. That's where I live with my partner. And I used to live here. So I come back for work a lot. And I just feel like I've been plugged back into my old life before 2020. And it's like making me feel a little jittery. Like I have gotten so much done today in a while. I worked out. I went for a walk. I saw some colleagues like I've been on the Zooms. It's great. So New York is a bit addictive to me to where it like it really feeds my like got to stay busy mindset. So I say I had peace in L.A.,

I could do New York for more than a few days because I'm like, they're taking too much of my money and too much of my time. I always feel like I live 25 hours a day when I'm in New York. It's like Vegas almost. Yeah. Yeah. Days get longer. You lose. It's just like you're excited and it's wonderful. And then you're just like, oh God, I need a glass of water and some rest. Yeah. It's wild. I just, Jenna, do you live here in New York? Right? No, I'm actually in California. I'm in the Bay area. Okay.

You do have a literal glow. You got a glow. No, honestly. We're loving it. You do have a glow. Some tinted moisturizer. I have told people when I moved out here, it's really, really good for your mental and physical health. Really good. Just something about it being nice outside every day. Not every day. You know, it does get too hot. We don't have air conditioning. That's the whole thing. But the beauty just kind of, it adds a lot to your day without you having to do much. I tell people, especially in Southern California, people are working.

And they get the same amount of work done that I think East Coast people do. But work is always item two or three on the priority list. It's never the first priority. People will be working and like take a break midday to like hike for two hours.

Exactly. You do have, and you also get a sense of, I think boundaries. Like I have better boundaries living in LA because there's no way I'm waking up at 5am to be on the 8am news cycle of New York. Like I'm waking up when I wake up, I'll catch up when I catch up and you also will go to bed and I'll have a few hours to myself. So it gives you a sense of like boundary practicing that I didn't have in New York, which is why I need to leave. I leave in 24 hours. Come back to us, Zach. Come back.

We're going to go to a break, but Saeed, Zach, and I will dive into your questions after a short break. Welcome back. You're listening to Dear Prudence, and I'm here with Sam Sanders, Saeed Jones, and Zach Stafford. Are you guys ready for the first letter? Been ready. I'm so excited. So ready. I know you are. You've all been talking about it for half an hour. We have. Let's go ahead and listen to it. It's called Better Than a Robot. Better Than a Robot

My wife and I have a solid marriage, and together we're raising two wonderful children. I must confess, however, that I'm not always as attentive a listener as my wife would prefer, and there are instances when I lose track of the details in our conversations or forget something she's mentioned. We're both software engineers, and our work involves interacting with large language models. Recently, my wife has taken this a step further, forming a rapport with one of these AI tools.

It addresses her by a specific pet name, and she's crafted an intriguing persona for it, including physical descriptions. She's open about interactions with this tool, sharing her conversations with me, asserting that she has nothing to conceal. While the exchanges aren't usually sexual, they're definitely flirty, and I can't help but notice the AI's unfailing patience and flawless memory, which outshine my own abilities.

My wife used this as a clever approach to address the perceived communication gap between us. I've always admired her pragmatic nature and I understand her perspective, yet I find myself grappling with unexpected feelings of jealousy towards this robotic entity. Despite the fact that I can't pinpoint any particular harm it's causing our marriage, I can't shake off the sense of feeling replaced and insecure.

Good googly moogly. My God. So just to give everyone, I want to give a visual of what happened during this letter. Saeed was clutching his chest. Sam's eyes were bugging out and he was kind of frozen. And Zach was gazing at the floor, shaking his head. I'm overwhelmed with excitement. The first word that came to my mind was divorce. Really? Say more.

I just feel like, I feel like this spouse that is doing the thing with the AI, they're letting the other partner know what they want, which is something else. I'm sorry. I just feel like I was in this situation with my partner. I feel like as soon as you start realizing you like the AI, you have to tell your partner and have a serious sit down conversation.

And if you're not having that conversation and the partner keeps doing it, what are they telling you? What are they telling you? That's where I'm at right now, but I want to hear what my sisters think too. I don't think we're at divorce yet, but I do think, I do think your wife is telling you she is primed to have an affair with the first actual person who offers her some actual conversation. Well,

Well, I would say she is having an affair with... An emotional affair with... It's not a sentient being, but, you know, a robotic AI being. But she is going to somewhere else to have needs met that she's not getting met at home. And it's not crossing a physical line. But I think emotionally she is engaging in behaviors that rightfully make this writer, this person writing it, uncomfortable and feeling like they...

It sounds like they feel like they're getting cheated on by AI, which we don't have the language for yet. I think in 10 years we're going to have language for that. But I think the partner is saying what they need out of a relationship. And I'm really interested to know if the writer is even changing their behaviors or have they just become really kind of...

stubborn in their ways in which they interact with their wife to where they've had to create AI to fulfill the needs. Right. Well, it sounds to me like the letter just thinks these communication problems he has are just kind of like permanent, unchangeable qualities. And I just want to throw out that maybe you could work on those things.

A little bit for the sake of keeping the marriage and, you know, keeping your wife away from the robots. I don't think his spouse is having an affair. It feels to me that it is an open relationship, essentially. Right. I mean, she's telling he knows it's happening. She's being very clear. And it seems that, like you said, it's like he said, it's not sexual. It's flirty, which to me seems to indicate he's either gotten to see or occasionally gets to see the kinds of things they talk about.

So it's open. I mean, there's some kind of understanding. I think so. To me, it feels like open relationship meets thought experiment that has consent from both partners. And yeah, Jenea, I think you're right. It's kind of like, it feels like he's talking about like his...

of paying attention to conversation, his lack of responding to emotional bids as if it's like he has a memory problem. And I'm like, it doesn't sound like you have like a mental ailment. It sounds like you just aren't an attentive partner and your partner is smart enough to go like, oh, well, let's create a situation where you get to see what that looks like. So yeah, I think it's like thought experiment meets open relationship with AI, which is fascinating. And...

She, I agree with you, Jhené, she's given him an opportunity, but I do think there's a clock ticking in her head. - Well, I guess my question is like, what do you do as a partner? I guess my thing is like, if I am the letter writer,

My first thought is like, I can only stay in this relationship with you and work on these things if you stop it with this AI. You don't like that. I'm like, so you're threatened by the AI? I don't see a scenario in which I'd feel comfortable with this. Yes! Sam is bothered. I am bothered. It's just funny how Sam was so intense he waved his finger and said stop it with the AI right now. I wouldn't feel comfortable and secure in that relationship if the AI stayed after I knew how close they were getting.

I like if I were this letter writer, I'd be like, I need you to take a break with this thing for at least a few weeks while we work on some stuff. And then if you do bring this AI back, there needs to be some parameters. I don't think I want my partner flirting with AI. I don't know. I think the AI is more of just like a soft gap. I think it's one step above like reading romance novels or something. Okay. I don't think it's terrible. But one thing that struck me was that these AI tools, they're amazing tools.

technological advancements, but they're also really bad when it comes to writing, right? Yeah. Like college professors know when they've written an essay. I tried to get ChatGPT to write a condolence note for me, and it was just stilted,

Corny, flat. The fact that she's being satisfied by this really kind of basic. It shows how much this other partner isn't doing what they need to be doing. Yeah. And how much of an opportunity there is just to simply be like, how was your day? You look nice. The bar is low. The bar is low. That's what I'm trying to say. The bar is low. Yeah. Exactly. It sounds like this person writing the letter in is dealing with some a bit

of narcissism and can't see themselves of needing to change or not being perfect already or whatever. So as their partners showing them literally modeling behaviors that to your point are really like small, like AI is not that great. Like I don't want to have an affair with AI right now, maybe in the future.

Potentially. Not the right now. Not the qualifier. Currently, I do not have any interest in chat GBT being my BF. You know, like that's not of interest to me. But if she's getting fulfilled from that, you know, he can really make some substantial changes real fast to make this work. And at least it's not, you know, I've heard stories of people having affairs via, you know, video games through those chat functions or through avatars online. So there's not, to your point, another real person on the other end. So the stakes aren't as high as it could be.

there was a real person. It's interesting to me too, because when you kind of set up the letter and like where my mind went was like, like sexual, and I don't even know how that would work. But in terms of like, basically like, I guess I imagined her like having sexual fantasies and talks with this AI in that context. And it's interesting that when

hearing the letter and actually getting the details that it's like, no, this AI is just being like a partner. It's just, that is, whoa, way more. If like, if I had to choose what would freak me out more, it would be someone saying, oh yeah, they're just like a nice partner and I appreciate feeling heard and listened to. And that's way more intense and intimate to me, I think, than like, like sexy talk with, with AI.

Yeah. You know, it's I think if it were just sexy talk with the A.I., I would put it in the same category as watching porn. And it's like, sure, go ahead, whatever. But something about the like connection with this A.I., I don't know. I probably feel the most reservation about this out of the whole group, but I don't like it.

I don't like it. I don't like it. But see, what's interesting is, and I agree. I mean, I had a visceral, I was like, whoa, what do you mean? Like the AI remembers things that you, but to me, the alert in my system goes, is that how I've been failing my partner? It's not. To me, the response is not, you need to stop doing that. It's, what do I need to start doing? Yeah.

That's exactly it. The letter writer is too worried about trying to figure out. He says, I can't pinpoint any particular harm it's causing our marriage. He's trying to figure out if it's okay to be jealous or if this is an actual violation of any rules. And those are the wrong questions. Well, a lot of the questions should be inward facing. What am I doing? What am I not doing? Yeah, what is this telling me? So this is a man that wrote in? I've decided it is. It feels like a man.

It feels very much like a man. So this man says. And Sam has, and for context, Sam has a very visceral reaction to straight men not doing enough for their partners. That's true. Sam, don't play. I think I do too. Which again, Sam was like, divorce? We're like, wait, hey, hold up. I speak in absolute. I give ultimatums and I always think straight men should be doing more work.

We did a different show where a couple literally was brought in for us to give advice on cooking. And Sam just went right in on him. And on video, I was like, to this man, you're trash. Oh, God. I love you guys, but are you qualified? No, we're not. We're not. We absolutely are. I will say this, though. I think it is a moment for this letter writer.

to ask a lot of questions of themselves and maybe fewer about the partner and the AI. What is this whole situation saying about what kind of partner you might need to be and what kind of partner you perhaps want to be? Look inside yourself, you know, like you are not fulfilling some basic needs in this relationship. It's less about the AI and more about that.

And Sam, just real quick, since I guess you have a history of being hard on straight men who aren't fulfilling needs. How does a partner like this turn into someone who's better? Like, are there exercises that he can do? Is there a guidebook? How does he begin to meet her needs? Listen and actually listen. I think a lot of us, I think most of us are never really taught how to listen.

We learn how to perform conversation. We learn how to sound interested or look interested. But I think a lot of people and a lot of straight men don't ever make themselves listen sharply and intently. And I want them to think about what that feels like, what it means. Maybe ask some women or queer people in his life how to do it because we know because we have to do it.

But I think it's like he needs to learn some new skills around listening and learning from his partner. It's interesting because his jealousy kind of activated him and he seems to have done a close read of her interactions with the bot. He has it in him. He has it in him. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, he can. He just needs to get motivated. I guess I would say it's interesting, right? Because these are two, they're both...

like data, AI, language scientists. It seems like very intelligent people. I remember doing an event where someone who explained that he had recently, it was like an older person, had recently gotten like his PhD in literature. And I was like, what does this got to do with anything? And he just went on and on and on. And then was explaining that he'd been volunteering at an LGBT center and had been asked to leave because he had been misgendering people as they came in.

and he was so hurt and upset and da da da. And then so I was like, wait a minute, I was like five minutes ago at the beginning of your question, you mentioned that you have a PhD in literature. That's very difficult.

And so I think with the scientists, it's kind of like, look, like, how did you how do you do your job? You observe. Maybe it's not always listening, but you're observing attempts. You're making notes. You're like kind of bearing. You don't just like you're not walking in to your lab or your office every day with a blank slate. Right. You're being detail oriented because you care. Yeah.

- Exactly. So it's like, I think it helps for people. Sure, I mean, sure it'd be great, like sit down with a queer person or a woman, but I think for this person, it's like, think about whatever your area of expertise is, how you use those skills in your professional comfort zone, and then you need to apply them at home.

you know. Yeah, I like that. Great advice. How do you listen at work? Attentively. They listen when they want. They listen when they want. Elon Musk gets up and suddenly you're, you know, all ears.

Wow. Also, I will say, as soon as we're done with this call, I'm texting my boyfriend and saying, what will never enter this relationship chat is an AI situation. You are really over this AI situation. You said, welcome to the WGA writer's strike. I need a clause in the contract, honey. We need to codify this into relationship law. No AI on my watch. Right?

Anyway, in conclusion, letter writer, these jealous feelings are telling you something. You need to address them by being a better spouse, by listening the way you listen when Elon Musk speaks or whoever else you care about. And do it before she pops up with an actual human for you to be jealous of. Or you walk in on her having full-on AI interactive sex. Yes.

I don't even know exactly how it would work. But anyway, we're going to move on. And our next question is titled, Paige finally turned.

I had a very severe and serious heartbreak not so very recently, which I am ashamed to accept has made me dysfunctional in more than one way. It affects me to the extent that I can't even talk to anyone or stop being doubtful of everyone. I have to keep myself closed off, even though I feel like doing the opposite or else I just stop to live in the moment. I

I am trying though. So out of all the various ways I am trying, one is about restarting. While it is still scary, I would like to regain the belief I once had. So recently I have found an eye candy who takes stuff out of my mind just by a glance of him. I would like to talk to him, but I don't know if I should. The thing is, one of my very good friends likes him very much.

I truly feel like I am crossing an unreturnable border of the land of friendship and sisterhood by even thinking about it and doing an unforgivable sin by writing about this. But it had to get out. It's been months and I haven't said this to a single soul.

While I would like to talk to him, even though I don't know about what, and see for myself, I do not want to do this to my friend. I want to write more, but I don't know how else to continue. It's been a few days since I've slept properly and tonight, now, the time is early four in the morning. Please advise me on what to do or suggest some words of solace.

Oh, love. She's gone. Poor baby. Eye candy. Poor baby. She doesn't even know him. I'm really sorry that they're even having this experience. She doesn't even know what to say if she talks to him. It is really rough. Also, it's just like an everyday heartbreak that shouldn't lead you to ruin a friendship, right? Yeah. With someone who is only being described as eye candy.

She doesn't even know this guy. She thinks he's attractive. Her friend, I assume, knows him and actually likes him. I think we can just give sort of like the conclusion here. No, do not. Do not steal this guy out from under your breath. Sinead's like, I'm not even going to entertain you thirsty queens because she can see the look on her face. I'm like, who was getting in a fight with a friend over Jason Momoa? That was why I was thinking the whole, I was like, focus on the letter. Focus on the letter, Saeed. No, I guess, yeah, you're right. But you know, my reason actually is a little bit different. It's that

If you're at the point where you're, you know, just making it through the day and really just like having organic conversations with people feels like difficult and still very challenging. I don't think you're ready for obviously like a relationship, but certainly not something that's going to be inherently complicated. You know what I mean? It's kind of like you need to comfortably ease into like,

interaction flirting 101 and this sounds like an advanced graduate course you know what I mean in terms of socializing

And to add to that, you know, if you want like something that is low stakes and could be fun and exhilarating, it can give you kind of the same dopamine reaction to thinking about engaging with your friend's crush. There's this website called Chat Roulette and other versions of it where you are just you're on a Zoom and it shows you random people around the world that you can talk to flirt with. Some people can be inappropriate. So be careful how you enter this chat room. But it's just a chat room and chat rooms are really great places where

whether it's a Reddit chat room or chat roulette, where you can engage in like really low stakes banter with strangers, flirt with them, kind of practice in real time with people. Practice the talking with folks. So I think in practice the flirting and you could enter like there's even like, you know, more like fun flirty dating chat rooms that you can get on to do that. So I'd say keep it online, practice there, but don't ruin a friendship over a stranger. I love that idea. I didn't know about that and I'm going to start suggesting it more. Yeah.

The thing I was most worried about with this listener letter is that they were saying it's been a few days since they've slept properly. And I'm like, how do we get you to a place where you have enough peace to be able to rest? And I think that there's a way for them to get there without trying to steal someone's crush. I think maybe what needs to happen first is just like,

tell your friend what's going on. Get it off your chest and just say, listen, you saw them first. You have a better connection. Have it. But I won't be able to have peace until I tell you that this is going on. And maybe just clearing the air in that way will help this person rest. Like, I want you to be able to rest. You know what I'm saying? I agree. I think crushes can feel so powerful and all-encompassing. And sometimes the way to get rid of them is just to kind of name them. Yeah.

and acknowledge them instead of like all the suppression is what's keeping you and the turmoil and the secrecy is what's keeping you up at night literally. Confession can be therapeutic. Yeah, that's true. There's a TikTok meme going around that a crush is just a lack of information.

I was just going to say that. Yes, it is. And it absolutely applies here. Because, and then, Janae, again, you get right, you're like, all you've said about him is, I can't, you didn't say he was nice. You didn't say, like, you saw him at an event and his question was just, you don't know nothing about this man. Yeah, and yeah, I think to the point of the sleep, that's really where I, it just, it sounds like this person is in that space and we've all been there, we'll be there again. It's deeply human. But, like, punishing yourself

for your thoughts, you are allowed and should think whatever you want to think. But the fact that you are, I mean, this is your friend, you mentioned you invoke sisterhood. I talk with my sister, Sam and Zach about everything, you know, so it'd be like, that man is fine. What do you think? And you can say that. You know what I mean? Like that is something I want you to feel absolutely comfortable talking with your friend about because that's your sister, you know?

Well, and like I want there to be some work on this person's self-esteem and like self-badgering. Early on in this letter, they wrote that they are ashamed that something has made them dysfunctional. Let go of that language. You're not broken. You're not broken. You're okay. Like you are okay. All of your thoughts are okay. Maybe talking about it would help you feel better. But there's a lot of shame I feel in this letter. Yeah.

And there's a lot of, self-hatred is too harsh of a term, but...

you got to love you as well. You're not dysfunctional. You have nothing to be ashamed of. You're okay. It's just a weird thing to deal with right now. Right. I want to kind of walk a thin line between telling, like being dismissive. Like you're obviously young. I can tell by the way this sounds and you know, you have a heartbreak and you're going to forget it, but you don't remember this person's name in two years. You definitely won't remember the eye candy's name. And also just saying like, this is serious. Yeah.

And it really hurts. And also it's something that everyone goes through.

What's difficult about those moments is that, and that kind of potent heartbreak or grief or whatever, or infatuation, is that it's so potent, it feels like forever. Like you can't see the borders of it, you know? And particularly when you're young and you're going through a lot of those initial kind of life experiences. And so you can't really contextualize it. And so I think that's why I can like,

knock you low. I'm so sorry that you feel this way. It really, it sucks. But yeah, I think it's important to go. It hurts and it's intense, but it won't be this way forever. I'm not permanently...

thrown out of my capacity, no matter how heartbroken I am. This is just the blues and I gotta sing it out for a little while. - And I think there's a North Star in the very first sentence of this letter where the writer writes, "I had a very severe and serious heartbreak not so very recently, which I'm ashamed of," and goes on to say, "I now have a crush." And what I'm hearing through all that is,

I loved being in love. I loved being close to someone. I loved having someone. I now don't. And I'm dealing with the grief of not having someone. And I really, really one day want to have someone again. And that's what you're searching for right now. And I think you've got to do that self-work to heal and know that that next person is going to come. I promise you.

There are all those feelings that are just looking for a place to land, right? Yeah. Like the feeling of being connected, the feeling of being cared for, the feeling of seeing a future. And I think one thing that you realize as you get older is that like romantic relationships are great and important, but also you can check a lot of those boxes through platonic friendships, right?

Like a lot of the way, if you imagine, okay, if the crush likes me, how will that work out? How is it that I want to feel? A lot of those feelings you can get other ways. And so I just want to encourage the letter writer again to preserve this actual friendship, the person who you describe as a sister, because you need people like that. Dating partners will come and go. But in the long run, you need people like that more than you need people who are eye candy.

Like I said, like these potent intense emotions can like throw our perspective so off course. We forget like what we have like right in front of us, you know. But I think like the very person who can probably help you get through this is your friend, you know. Yeah. And edibles. If you're not sleeping, get a good edible. Sorry. I was going to say magnesium. Heavy THC. Tea. A bath. And drugs too.

You're listening to Dear Prudence. And when we come back, more letters from you and hopefully some helpful advice. Stay tuned.

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Welcome back to Dear Prudence. I'm here with my guests, Sam Sanders, Saeed Jones, and Zach Stafford to answer your letters. Guys, are you ready to tackle our next one? Yes, let's do it. Let's do it. Okay, it's titled Stuck in a Shell. I'm a gay teenager living in a progressive area. I'm extremely grateful that I have never experienced any targeted homophobia.

Unfortunately, I'm facing a difficult situation with a person who has recently inserted himself into the close friend group I'm a part of. Because of this, I have to avoid accidentally slipping up around him. This person has forced his bigoted views upon the people of the group, and he has even verbally disparaged others. As a result, we all walk on eggshells to avoid conflict.

I worry that over time his behavior will make others feel unsafe to share their views when he's around. I'm unsure how to address this situation without outing myself to him or causing tension, especially because I struggle with anxiety and the idea of confrontation scares me.

You know, is there a time and a place for bullying? Never. Like the friend group gets together and bullies this guy out? Yeah. I was like, Sam, this man needs to be bullied. A teenager needs to be bullied by his new friends that he's inserted himself into. I just, I have more questions than answers on this one. Because it's in the close friend group. That's the first thing. I was like, okay, how is this person? When they say recently inserted himself into the close friend group, how? My first guess is that he's dating one of the other friends. Yeah. Yeah.

I also have more questions about them saying I have to avoid slipping up around him. About what? Slipping up about what? I want to know more about that. And then, I don't know, I think they're worried about having to out themselves or not. But also, if you're saying that this person has bigoted views that they're bringing to the group, you can say no to bigoted views without addressing your sexuality. You can just say, that was pretty bigoted. Please don't say that. Yeah.

You know, and like that person doesn't know if you are just an ally or part of the family or whatever. But you could it's I feel like especially in a group of quote unquote close friends, it's OK to say what you said was not right. It was not nice. Please don't say it. And I wonder if this letter writer can get to a point where they feel that they can find a way to say that.

without, I suppose, giving away details about themselves that they don't want to. But I do think that there is a way, especially amongst a friend group, to say that's not nice and to quote Saeed, you know, that's not what we do here.

You know what I'm saying? Right. I love that's not what we do here, especially because the bad guy was evidently floating around looking for a group of friends. So he's in a vulnerable position here. You hold all the cards. Yeah. You and your friends are in a much stronger position. You have each other. And what's the worst thing that happens if you confront him? You send him back out to find some bigots to hang out with, right? Yeah. Like this person should be ejected. Your friend group

especially in your teenage years where you're beginning to have these really close friends that will become potentially lifelong friends, you're allowed to put boundaries around who can be in those spaces and who can't because these are your safe spaces. This is where you learn to be the person you want to be. And if he's preventing that, this person, because of his own bigoted views, which I could do a whole armchair reading of

What my bullies in high school, when they bullied me, they eventually came out as gay themselves. So I don't know what's going on with this kid, but there may be some feelings there. But that's not for you to worry about. What you should worry about is protecting yourself and your safety. And if this person doesn't make you feel safe, you don't need to be around them. So, you know, if you can't say something to this person, think about the friend group. Is there a person that would say something on behalf of y'all? Is there someone that would advocate on behalf of y'all? Kind of think about the safety there. I'm worried that you're in a close friend group

And you feel so alone in how you feel. I'm worried that no one else has spoken up already, it seems like. So I guess I would say maybe even before direct confrontation with this person, and I have some thoughts on some things you could say, but before that,

You with the friend that you vibe with, we all, always in a group, there's someone that's a little bit easier for you to talk to one-on-one. And you turn and go, isn't it weird that they said da-da-da? Or did you, what did you think about that? You know, and maybe you get some context. Maybe they go, damn, I was waiting for you to say something. You know what I mean? Like, that's a powerful moment. And then, yeah, you got, look, you've been here longer, buddy. You know, like, gather your allies. Y'all, like, gotta check him. And then the direct thing is,

You know, I think just saying like, what do you mean by that? I don't get it. What'd that mean? You know what I mean? Like, just like just some questions. It doesn't even necessarily have to be a, that made me uncomfortable. It's like someone says a racist joke and you go, huh?

What's that mean? You know what I mean? Force them to explain it, you know? But yeah, more than anything, just remember like your friends are there. And if they are your friends, and I hope they are, you should not have to deal with this on your own because they should be freaking out a little too. Yeah, I do like that. These friends can step up too. That's smart. Yeah. And you also have an opportunity here to really...

someone in a really positive way. I was just home and saw a lot of my high school friends and a few of them brought up to me how back in high school in Tennessee and podunk town nowhere, I would actively tell people not to say the word gay as an insult a lot. I'd

I'd be like, yeah, and I wasn't out. I'd be like, that's not, why are you calling them gay? That's, what do you mean by that? What are you trying to do with that word? Like I would challenge it, as Saeed's saying, without outing myself. And these people are in their 30s coming up to me being like, girl, I remember when you challenged me on this. And I have always remembered that to this day. So you do have an opportunity, if you want to take it, to maybe help someone get on a better path, which is amazing. And maybe that's what this person is looking for too, because they did enter your group, potentially for a reason, I would think. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and hopefully, should this letter writer start to model that behavior, a gentle calling out, the other friends might do it too. You know, the goal is that they would support this person and say, we don't do that here. You know, I think it's, and this is the thing,

where it's like you never tell anybody when to come out or how to come out. You got to do it in your own path. But part of the equation here is being comfortable to live your truth in that regard. And it's a process that you go through on your own timeline. But I do think once you're on the other side of that, moments like this become infinitely easier to handle.

I also wonder if the letter writer would find it easier to tackle if they thought about this not as something they were speaking up about to help themselves, but rather something they're speaking up about to help all the other gay people that this guy is going to encounter throughout his life. So that sort of takes it away from like the should I come out? Is it just me?

Do I want to be the weird one and like you're doing a service to the world if you get if you get this guy on a better path and it's not just about you and whether you're out and like how the how the words are hitting you. Yeah, and I want to say like I want to acknowledge for this letter writer. All this shit is hard. It's hard being a teenager period. It's even harder being a gay teenager. It's even harder being someone who still has to figure out how to come out and

it's even harder to have to deal with homophobia in a place that you say is progressive. Isn't that fucking annoying? So I want to acknowledge, like...

You're going through it. I see and hear that. I'm sorry. Like, it's not fun. And like, it's hard. Like, you can see this letter and say, oh, it's just it's just kids at school. But it's hard. Yeah. And it's it's not your fault. It's so weird. Like, like misogyny, you know, racism, anti-trans. It's such a weird thing it does to us.

Whether it's a microaggression or just like aggression, aggression. That so often someone says something hurtful. And one of the immediate kind of things that can happen in our brains is, what did I do to bring that on? Uh-huh. Why?

wild again it's particularly when you're a young person you know it's like it can take a while for you to kind of get hip to that but yeah it's not your fault and yeah compassionately maybe this kid's just as lost as you are and you know I'm grateful that I

I was raised in a household and in a family where I was having a lot of people where they'd be like, we don't, why would you say that? That will hurt people's feelings. That was hurtful to say, and you don't want to go to school and act that way. Maybe this person hasn't.

at kind of so yeah maybe you're gonna be the best thing that ever happens to this new friend but it's okay if that doesn't work out because you know it's also like not your fault and not to like be corny but it will get better high school is a time when you sort of are stuck with the friends you have like there are some options but you kind of get what you get

And in college or work or your next stage of life, you'll get to start from scratch and really handpick people. And you will absolutely not even have to deal with this kind of thing if you don't want to. So hang in there. Amen.

Hang in there. You got this. Also, all of this reminds me, you couldn't pay me to go back to high school. My God. What if hell is you die and you open your eyes and you're holding books and you're 13 years old? And you're back in high school. No! Circles of hell is like the really bad people go to the seventh grade. Oh, no. In PE class, we're going to go to a short break. We'll be right back.

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This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden. I'm Janae, and you're listening to Dear Prudence. We have reached our last question. Are you guys ready? I mean, are they ready? This is quite a group of aunties here. You know what I mean? Okay, everyone brace yourself. This letter is titled, Thankless.

Okay.

"'It is baked chicken and not fried. There are mashed potatoes, but no gravy. Grandma only wants to eat chicken wings, and it's all dark meat. One of the kids hates corn. One only eats chicken tenders. His mom hates buffalo wings. Sorry, I brought you over three pounds free then, and you still ate them.'

I'm tired of it. The food is always gone by the end, but sitting there and listening to them bitch and bitch and bitch makes me want to chuck the food in the trash. My boyfriend tells me that his family is allowed to have preferences. I told them I preferred them to shut up and maybe say thank you once in a while.

If they don't want to eat the free food, don't. But the constant complaining gets to me. The last time his aunt bitched the mac and cheese was dried out, so I add a cup of water and put it in the microwave. It came out fine, and I sarcastically asked if it matched Her Majesty's expectations. I got a lot of pushback over that.

The levels of animosity here are so high. Woo!

You were like, I just have to process that moment. Let me tell you something. I bring you free food once and you don't like it. I am bringing it to you again. I think this is a good chance for this person to say, what do I owe this relationship? What do I owe this man's family? What do I owe my relationship with all of them? And I bet the real answer is you owe them a lot less than you think you do. You just do.

Exactly. What struck me about it was the dynamics I'm hearing here remind me a lot of things I read in letters from people who have really terrible in-laws, meaning the relatives of people who they are married to and legally bound to and have spent a number of years with. So that's a really tough situation, right? Because often you have kids and do you want to get divorced and can you afford to get divorced? The great news here is you're just dating.

You can end this. Yeah. Yeah. Just stating. And it didn't seem... I mean, correct me if I missed a detail, but I wasn't getting... I absolutely agree with all of you. I didn't get any indication that the boyfriend was especially great beyond this one dynamic. Yeah. Well...

I also feel like she might actually be wanting a boyfriend who doesn't live at home with his family. How about that? I didn't even think about that part. I was just thinking about his failure to stand up to her. Yeah. Or even acknowledge her experience. I mean, this is about dry mac and cheese and buffalo wings and everything else, but...

Imagine these dynamics when things get more serious down the road, when it's about like how to raise your children or are the in-laws coming to live with you? You don't want to be navigating those things with someone who behaves like your boyfriend does and says, well, you know, they're allowed to have their opinions. I mean,

my family is allowed to have preferences absolutely killed me yeah that was just like the cluelessness of that statement it just seems like the boyfriend where i do janae what you're saying get a new boyfriend i'm kind of co-signing that now because if you don't have a partner that doesn't see and celebrate your labor and how you try to take care of them and their family then you don't need to be there they're not ready to accept that type of love yet from you so why give it to them oh

Oh, you were on a journey to this point? I gotta tell you, we were halfway through the letter and I was like waiting for Sam to be like, even though they're just dating, divorce him, girl. Because yeah, there's just no way. The side was like, I'm done. There's just no, I mean, maybe the same. And look, and if the sex was banging, she would have said the sex was banging. She didn't. She would have lied with us. I'm like, get out of there.

Also, I'll say this. This whole thing reminds me of something someone much smarter than me once said. They said, you don't have to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm. When the level of care you're providing to people is causing you harm...

reconsider providing the care especially if it's not an obligation it's not an obligation i want to push back a little on the more independent boyfriend part because life is so expensive and layoffs and tough times and a lot of people need to live with their families but you could live with your family without making your dating partner like a servant to them yeah and having boundaries exactly yeah like because i'm just like what the he the

If it was like, look, this would be, like you said, like if they had kids or if you needed to live with your boyfriend and his family under their roof because you can't afford your own place right now. That's a lot more complicated. But like, I'm not seeing that here. Yeah. And I just think just like with the friend group. I don't know. It is a major issue.

major flag to me if you are in a dicey situation with someone who should be an ally whether it's a close friend or a boyfriend and they're either not advocating for you or at least when it's just the two of you alone they're not turning to you in some way and going that was crazy right like you should not be alone together right or thank you for dealing with them yeah jail to this man jail

to this man I'm absolutely done with the boyfriend I don't see it for him the only thing I felt kind of bad about was that there are kids there and I was like I want the kids to have the food from the deli but you can't stay in a relationship that where you're not being treated well that's not working for you

I don't know. I guess there was a way to have nipped us in the bud sooner. As soon as you complain about the food I bring you, I ain't bringing you no more. Seems like she's been continually bringing them food in spite of the complaining. Cut that off. Whatever you do, cut it off. And you could even, she could even be like, y'all. Oh man, I have such bad news. I got in trouble with my boss. Like you don't even have to like, you can literally just be like, it's out of my hands and I'm so sorry. And that's just the end of it. You know? Oh,

Oh, I would have said, oh, I didn't bring anything. Unfortunately, they only had stuff that you didn't like. So I didn't want to bother you with it. Snaps to that. Listen, take this deli food, go to your apartment, smoke a joint,

Put on Sleepless in Seattle. I don't know. Have a night of self-care away from that boyfriend and away from his family. Take some time for you. Has Sam ended every letter with a call to do drugs? Yes. This episode is brought to you by THC.

Those are all the questions we have for this week. As always, I do hope we've been helpful. I think we had to have been helpful. There were four of us, right? One of them only eats chicken tenders. Sorry, I'm going back to this letter. One of them only eats chicken tenders.

Oh my God. Thank you, Sam, Saeed, and Zach for all your help. I really appreciate it. Great to be here. Listen and subscribe to Vibe Check, a weekly podcast where Sam, Saeed, and Zach make sense of what's going on in news and culture and how it all feels. It's your favorite group chat come to life. New episodes are available every Wednesday.

Do you need help getting along with partners, relatives, coworkers, and people in general? Write to me. Go to slate.com forward slash prudie. That's slate.com forward slash prudie.

The Dear Prudence column publishes every Thursday. If you want to hear your question answered on the podcast, we are looking for letter writers who would be comfortable recording their questions for the show. And you can stay anonymous. Dear Prudence is produced by Sierra Spragley-Rix, with a special thanks to Brandon Nix. Editorial help from Paula De Verona. Daisy Rosario is Senior Supervising Producer, and Alicia Montgomery is Slate's VP of Audio.

I'm your dear prudence, Jenae Desmond-Harris. Until next time.

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