Deep Dive
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It's Thursday, April 24th. I'm Josie Duffy Rice, in for Jane Koston, and this is What A Day. The show-wondering of Makeup Studio is code for Open Bar. Diva of defense Pete Hegseth reportedly ordered officials to spend thousands to give the Pentagon's green room a glow-up by adding a makeup studio. I'm no mathematician, but I don't think a director's chair, a mirror, and a makeup light cost several thousands of dollars.
On today's show, the Trump administration steps closer to admitting a trade war with China may not be in our best interest. And the Department of Veterans Affairs is tackling all that anti-Christian bias that we are always hearing about. But let's start with Russia's war in Ukraine. On Wednesday, Vice President J.D. Vance encouraged the two countries to agree to a peace proposal and said that the U.S. would, quote, walk away from their role in negotiations if the two countries refuse to accept America's terms.
He spoke to reporters from India, where he's on a diplomatic trip. We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process. We've engaged in an extraordinary amount of diplomacy, of on-the-ground work. We've really tried to understand things from the perspective of both the Ukrainians and the Russians. What do Ukrainians care the most about? What do the Russians care the most about?
I feel like the Ukrainians care the most about not being taken over by Russia. And what Russia cares most about is taking over Ukraine.
And that feels a little unreconcilable to me. It feels like pretty mutually exclusive objectives. And it feels like maybe the White House also knows this, because while Vance says that they're ostensibly talking to both countries, the real target seemed to be Ukraine. According to The New York Times, the Trump administration's proposal, quote, closely aligns with longstanding Russian goals. It includes a freeze of the war's current boundaries, requiring Ukraine to basically give up 20 percent of the country's territory.
It also requires Ukraine to have to accept Russia's annexation of Crimea and agree to not join NATO. Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office Thursday evening, President Donald Trump made his own objectives for the deal clear. Well, everything is good. I just want to see the war end. I don't care. If they're both happy, they both signed an agreement.
I have no favorites. I don't want to have any favorites. I want to have a deal done. I want to save their lives. But it's pretty clear that Trump does have a favorite because the proposal, or more accurately, threat, puts Ukraine in a particularly tough position. A position Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky seems unwilling to accept.
Just hours before Vance's comments, Zelensky said Ukraine will not agree to a ban on joining NATO, nor agree to cede Crimea to Russia, calling it a constitutional violation.
So to better understand why the Trump administration wants to strong arm Ukraine over Russia and what it says about Trump's views on power, I spoke with Matt Duss. He's the executive vice president of the Center for International Policy, a progressive think tank. He's also the former foreign policy advisor to Vermont independent Senator Bernie Sanders. Matt, welcome to What A Day. Thank you. Very glad to be here.
So let's start with the parameters of the deal that was supposed to be negotiated on Wednesday. The U.S. wants to basically freeze the battle lines that exist today, which would cede a huge swath of eastern Ukraine to Russian control. It wants Ukraine to recognize Ukraine's
the Crimean Peninsula, which Russia illegally annexed in 2014 as Russian territory. And it wants Ukraine to give up its goal of joining NATO. And in exchange, Ukraine would get some security assurances and some help rebuilding. So what's your take on this deal? I mean, listen, let's just first say, like, I think everyone, no one more than the Ukrainians wants this war to end. But in general, this is a deal that seems to give Russia an awful lot.
and Ukraine relatively little. I mean, you say security assurances, there are, as I've seen the agreement, there are no hard security guarantees. Obviously, the agreement not to join NATO. And let's say, I don't think anyone seriously thought, you know, Ukraine was ever going to join NATO, but there are some security guarantees short of NATO membership. I think that could make this a better situation and make it a better agreement for Ukraine to agree to.
Yeah, it's not exactly clear to me what Russia has to give up in this deal. Right. Is there something I'm missing there? What do they actually have to sacrifice? No.
No, you're not. I mean, what Trump has said in his statement, I think on Truth Social, whatever it was, I mean, and others in the administration have talked about swaps of land. It's like, what is Russia swapping? I think it's this is a one sided swap is that Ukraine is giving up portions, you know, of, you know, basically the the eastern third of its country, including Crimea. Right. In exchange for an end to the war for now. And again, that is a good thing.
But I think the key, the key thing to keep in mind here is, you know, Putin, as far as I've seen, has not given up on his ultimate goal. What I think people understand as his ultimate goal, because he had described it as such of ending Ukraine's independence. His vision of a kind of Russian imperium or the new Russia or Russia's historic entitlement includes Ukraine as part of that territory. And he's, he's,
not given any evidence that he has changed that view. So the question would be, what is stopping Putin from simply restarting the war in the future? Zelensky insists that Ukraine will never recognize Crimea as part of Russia. He said that mere hours before this statement by Vance came down. Is that...
little fantastical at this point like realistically, what are Ukraine's chances of reclaiming that territory do you think? Right, I think that's a great question. I think the chances are very slim, but you know it's not unheard of to kind of have some kind of vague language in an agreement to end the war where Ukraine does not officially recognize, you know, Russia's sovereignty over Crimea, but you know commits not to trying to retake it or you know, there's some wiggle room there.
But as of right now, Trump and others in his administration really just seem to be putting the screws to Zelensky and the Ukrainians to accept a peace that could very well be temporary. Yeah, to that point, you know, from a diplomatic stance, Trump promised he was going to kind of immediately end this war during the campaign. Really, anybody who's been kind of even casually following the war knew that that was not going to be an easy task.
But now what Vance is threatening is basically that the U.S. will just walk away from talks entirely if Russia and Ukraine don't agree to those terms. And obviously those terms are harder to swallow for Ukraine than for Russia. And we're only three months into the term. So what do you make of this? Like, what does this say about the Trump administration? And what do you think that this says about the kind of role of the U.S. in the future here in this war? Yeah.
Well, first, yes. I mean, Trump during the campaign and previously has said, you know, it'll be very easy to make peace. I can do it in a day. It turns out it's a bit more difficult than that. You know, we obviously had the kind of, you know, what we've seen over the past few weeks, especially the notorious Oval Office meeting with Zelensky, where, you know, Vance and then Trump both kind of went after Zelensky to say, you basically need to do what we say because you don't have any cards.
I think Zelensky in the wake of that meeting very wisely showed that he is interested in peace. He is ready to negotiate a real peace. He's been engaged in the kind of in the talks, like, for instance, that have been going on in London with the United States, UK, France and Germany. It is the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, who decided not to attend those talks. Right.
The concern that Ukrainians have had, and this was something that was actually shared by the Biden administration, is that Putin wants this to be something that is negotiated between Russia and the United States.
He believes that Russia is a great power and the United States is a great power. And it is the job of great powers, the right and the entitlement of great powers to simply determine the future of less powerful countries. And unfortunately, it seems that Donald Trump also shares this view. But I think that not only is that, I think, unethical and unjust, it will not lead to more stability. It will lead potentially to more war.
Yeah, it's interesting you say that because we saw Trump lash out at Zelensky on Truth Social on Wednesday saying he was prolonging the, quote, killing field. How do you sort of see Trump's repeated insults against Zelensky and apparently, you know, favoring of Putin in these negotiations as kind of part of this broader worldview? I mean, you mentioned earlier that this comes down to just sheer power, basically. And that is sort of how he's been playing this.
Right. I mean, it is it is very notable that he he has been telling a story about this war. That is a lie. He has said that, you know, the Ukrainians started this war. Zelensky started what is Russia that started this war. Now, I think it is possible to have a real discussion about, you know, Russia's own, you know, legitimate security concerns, Putin's own, you know, concerns about Russia's security and and the arrangement of Europe without, you know, acquiescing to Putin's version of events.
So you're an advisor, a former advisor of Senator Bernie Sanders on foreign policy. He's an independent but votes with Democrats. So what do you think that Democrats can do to counter this perspective, this worldview more in this particular situation, but also more broadly? Because this does sort of seem to be the operating ideology of the administration. Yeah.
Well, I think what Democrats can do is to just uphold international law. I mean, the right of countries not to be invaded by their more powerful neighbors and have chunks of their land stolen is a pretty foundational concept in international law. And I think if we want to live in a world of rules...
instead of a world where might makes right. I think it is important to continue to press that point. I mean, unfortunately, I mean, we have a situation where the previous Democratic administration did not uphold those rules, did not uphold international law when it came to the Palestinians in Gaza. So I do think Democrats...
you know, need to do a bit of self-criticism here and acknowledge that the previous Democratic administration really failed in this respect. But as we kind of look forward and try to articulate a vision of America's role in the world, a more peaceful, stable world where people live with dignity and real security, I think upholding these rules for all, for friends and foes alike, is really the way to go.
So Ukraine is in a pretty tough spot right now. It is reliant on U.S. aid to keep up this war. It is in this existential standoff with Putin. And now Vance is saying, and the administration is saying, like, take it or leave it. You know, if you don't take this, we're out. Right. So what do you think that Ukraine is going to do? What kind of options do they really have here? I mean, you're right. They're in a very tough spot. Yeah.
I think what could help the Ukrainians is for the Europeans to really step up, as we've seen some of them doing. Not enough. And it's been very slow. But I think it is starting to dawn on our European partners that they really are going to need to do more. The question is whether they can do more quick enough, whether they can provide enough aid quick enough.
should the United States decide to walk away. And we should all understand what walk away means. It's to just kind of step back and let Russia continue to roll over Ukraine and achieve Putin's ultimate goal, which is to end Ukraine as an independent country. Matt, thank you so much for joining us. Very glad to be here. Thank you.
That was my conversation with Matt Dess, Executive Vice President at the Center for International Policy and former Foreign Policy Advisor to Senator Sanders. We will get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. What a Day is brought to you by Aura Frames. Sweaters. Candles.
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Here's what else we're following today. Headlines.
I've given over half of my life to House and Senate Congressional Service. I've always tried to stand up to power on behalf of the people of Illinois and our country.
The number two Democrat in the Senate is retiring. Illinois' Dick Durbin announced on Wednesday he plans to step down at the end of his term next year. And he's not exaggerating when he says he spent more than half of his life in Washington. The 80-year-old has been in Congress for over four decades, mainly in the Senate. And no shade of the senator, but that is longer than almost anyone who works on this show has been alive.
Durbin posted a video about his decision to step down on social media. It's time to pass the torch. And although I won't seek re-election, I'll continue to fight every single day for the Illinoisans who gave a kid from East St. Louis a chance to serve. The music choice on that clip is very 80-year-old. He even got a shout out from former President Barack Obama. Illinois couldn't have asked for a better representative. I couldn't have had a better friend on this amazing journey we've been on together.
Durbin's decision to step down follows the anemic fundraising numbers he posted last week, a little more than $40,000 in the first few months of the year. At that point, the writing was pretty much on the proverbial wall. And while Illinois remains a solidly blue state, Durbin's seat is yet another that Democrats will have to defend in the midterms.
On top of keeping the seats also being vacated by Democrats in New Hampshire and Michigan, they'll need to defend incumbents in swing states like Georgia and Virginia, not to mention ousting a few Republicans in the process if they actually want to win a majority.
A federal judge on Tuesday ordered the White House to submit more information about the deportation of Kilmar Abrego-Garcia, the Maryland man who was wrongly sent to a prison in El Salvador last month. While the White House has admitted that Abrego-Garcia was deported due to a so-called administrative error,
Officials have not indicated any plans to comply with the Supreme Court's order to, quote, facilitate his release from the El Salvador prison. Last week, U.S. District Judge Paula Zinnis ordered Trump officials to answer questions about what they are doing to free him, if they're doing anything at all. The Department of Justice responded in a legal filing on Tuesday, saying that the White House has engaged in, quote, appropriate diplomatic discussions with Salvadoran officials.
But they did not elaborate any further. As you've probably heard, Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen traveled to El Salvador and met with Abrego Garcia last week. This week, a group of House Democrats, including Representatives Maxwell Frost, Robert Garcia, Maxine Dexter, and Yasemin Ansari, also traveled to the Central American country. Representative Ansari spoke to Wednesday's Matt Berg about their visit.
She said lawmakers met with the country's U.S. ambassador to share their concerns about Abrego Garcia's detention, but the Salvadoran government rejected their request to see him. We had really hoped to meet with him because although...
Senator Van Hollen had confirmed proof of life. The lawyer made very clear that this is something that we need regularly to ensure that he is safe and healthy. Ansari said the trip to El Salvador sends an important message to the White House. I think that this administration wants the story to die and to ensure that it does not die, we have to keep putting attention on it. And I think the most, the most like,
like real and authentic way to put attention on it is to directly go to where this is happening. The group also asked to visit a Venezuelan man who they say was also wrongfully deported, Andre Jose Hernandez Romero, a gay makeup artist who is seeking asylum. The Democratic members of Congress say they were also not able to speak to him nor get any proof of life.
The ongoing trade war between the U.S. and China is maybe, just maybe, not good for us in the long run. Trump's tariffs on Chinese goods top out at 145 percent. China has retaliated with a 125 percent tax on U.S. goods. During a speech at the Institute of International Finance on Wednesday, Treasury Secretary Scott Besant topped up the opportunity for the two countries to make a deal. If they want to rebalance, let's do it together.
Besson's speech came after The Wall Street Journal reported that the Trump administration may reduce its steep tariffs on Chinese goods.
CNBC reported Tuesday Bessent told investors that he expects a, quote, de-escalation in trade tensions between the U.S. and China in the, quote, very near future. But some folks aren't willing to wait and see. A dozen states filed a lawsuit in federal court on Wednesday over Trump's trade war. The states allege that the president's terror policy has been dictated by his, quote, whims rather than the sound exercise of lawful authority.
And they're asking the court to declare Trump's tariffs illegal and block U.S. officials from enforcing them. We're excited to be here for the launch of the task force to eradicate anti-Christian bias as outlined in the president's executive order.
If you are confused by this announcement from Attorney General Pam Bondi, let me back up for just a moment. Remember in February when President Trump issued that executive order assembling a task force meant to weed out anti-Christian policies from the Biden administration? Do you remember that?
It was weird for so many reasons, including the fact that former President Joe Biden is Catholic, a denomination that falls under the umbrella of Christianity. Also, the fact that Christians are by far the largest faith group in the country. But back to the point, that order names the attorney general chair of the task force to eradicate anti-Christian bias.
Just a reminder that these are the same people who stopped funding cancer research and stopped feeding malnourished kids because they said it was a waste of your money. On Tuesday, Bondi convened the group's inaugural meeting with other government representatives. Together, this task force will identify any unlawful anti-Christian policies, practices or conduct across the government.
Seek input from the faith-based organizations and state governments to end anti-Christian bias.
The Department of Veterans Affairs followed suit with Secretary Doug Collins urging employees to report any internal instance of anti-Christian discrimination. The AP reviewed the email that Collins sent asking for, quote, names, dates and locations of any alleged incidents like unofficial understandings hostile to Christian views, adverse responses to requests for religious exemption under the previous vaccine mandates and reprimands for displaying Christian imagery or symbols.
This is a reminder, you can't say happy holidays anymore. The war on Christmas is over. You say happy holidays, they're going to get you. The VA is not the only department that got the president's memo. The State Department made similar requests earlier this month to its employees in line with Trump's executive order. And that's the news. ♪
Before we go, the Trump crowd has found a new target, America's universities. Under the guise of fighting anti-Semitism and gutting DEI, the right is threatening campus funding, calling in immigration authorities, and turning academic freedom into a battleground.
On today's new episode of Assembly Required, Stacey Abrams talks to Wesleyan University President Michael Roth and Barnard Professor Nara Milonich about what's at stake and how students and faculty can fight back from reading local student newspapers to raising your voice in your college's community. Tune into Assembly Required now on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. That is all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, pray you don't end up on the anti-Christian bias task force hit list, and tell your friends to listen.
And if you're into reading and not just Trump's God Bless the USA Bible, available for $60, like me, What A Day is also a nightly newsletter. So check it out and subscribe at Cricut.com slash subscribe. I'm Josie Duffy Rice, and wishing people happy holidays is a form of resistance.
Waterday is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Fore. Our producer is Michelle Alloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, and Julia Clare. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gillyard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
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