How Mark Rutte is trying to save NATO
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Welcome to The World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. Today with me, Tom Noonan and Alex Dibble. The Secretary General of NATO is busy at the best of times, in times that are not the best, even more so.

Every day, Mark Ritter wakes up and sets about trying to hold NATO together. That task has been made more difficult by the United States. Donald Trump and his team have said the US won't prop up and defend NATO allies that the US doesn't feel are pulling their weight.

But many are confused by what appears to be mixed messages, because this was the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio at a NATO meeting in Brussels yesterday. As we speak right now, the United States is as active in NATO as it has ever been. And some of this hysteria and hyperbole that I see in the global media and some domestic media in the United States about NATO is unwarranted. The United States President perhaps made clear.

He supports NATO. We're going to remain in NATO. He's made clear. But we want NATO to be stronger. We want NATO to be more viable. And the only way NATO can get stronger and more viable is if our partners have more capability. So at best, we have confusion which enemies can exploit. And at worst, the alliance which has kept the West safe since the end of the Second World War is beginning to fracture.

How is Mark Rutter then trying to hold it all together? Our guest today is Rose Gottemüller, a former American diplomat who was NATO's Deputy Secretary General between 2016 and 2019 throughout much of the first Trump administration. Rose, talk us through what Mark Rutter is doing to try to keep Donald Trump on side.

He's got several strains of activity going, which are, I think, all equally important. First of all, he's keeping his lines of communication open with Donald Trump in the White House. And I thought the White House meeting a couple of weeks ago, he came in to force some criticism as, you know, being too accommodating to the president, but...

I think he showed his skill at being a good communicator with this president. And it does take some skill to communicate with this president. And so, you know, honestly, I thought it was a good White House meeting overall. So Trump needs to be handled and handled very deftly. And it does seem to me that Ruta is doing that very, very well. But he also is reaching out

strongly to the Europeans and used this term that I thought was very interesting when he said that whoever tries to challenge this fierce alliance will be sorry, or words to that effect. But I noted his use of the word this fierce alliance, and I thought, that's very good, you know. It's very good to be clear that the Allies are gathering together and committed to

to the continuing joint defense of Europe and are portraying themselves as very capable in military terms. Indeed, a fierce alliance. So he's, Rutte is really doing, I think, a good job in getting out the message that, yes, we'll continue to work in every way we can with the Americans, but

Also, we are ready to continue to work to develop our own skills, our own capacity and capability, and be ready to defend ourselves come what may. And it's interesting that you point out that Mark Rutter's role is as much trying to corral Europe and keep them on side as much as it is to focus on the Americans. Do you think that has played a role in the recent defence spending push in so many of NATO's European members?

So the allies have been on notice for some time in Europe that the United States could be changing its focus to the Indo-Pacific. So that does seem to be the case with this administration as well. This should not be any surprise to the allies. They've had wake-up calls before, but now truly they're responding to those wake-up calls. And I think that that's the most important thing.

at this moment, is that the response to the wake-up call seems to be ever heightened. And oh, by the way, that's also meant that NATO and the European Union are working more closely together and cooperating more closely together in a coherent way and a mutually beneficial way. When I was DSG, again, five years ago, Deputy Secretary General of NATO, often it seemed to me that the two institutions were butting heads more than cooperating.

But I don't see that so much these days. They seem to have developed the capacity and the mechanisms to be able to work together effectively in a kind of division of labor way. And also the leaders of the two organizations are really intertwined. They're really working together well, communicate constantly. You see with Ursula von der Leyen talking to Rutte and

etc. There's a constant communication link going on. It's helpful, of course, that all those leaders know each other very well. They've been working together very well for the last decade or more. But I do think that in terms of NATO-EU cooperation, we've never been at a better place than we are right now. Rose, it feels like Mark Rutter's role in all this then is sort of as a go-between, trying to bridge that gap between the US and Europe.

What sort of message do you think he should be feeding back to Donald Trump from the European allies?

I think for Mr. Trump, the continuing emphasis on more defense expenditure, more capacity. And recently, I think because the European allies realized perhaps in the future they won't be able to count on the United States for these key enablers, so-called. These are things like ISR, intelligence surveillance, reconnaissance capabilities, and

Things like the tanking capabilities for tankers for retanking aircraft on flight, different kinds of satellite capabilities for communications. I think the allies are just realizing now we have got to get these capabilities ourselves. It may take us 10 years, but we just can't count on the Americans being ready to provide us with that kind of backup in enabling our armed forces to operate effectively.

And so that kind of message also is very good for Mr. Trump to hear that, yeah, we're really developing ourselves as an independent capability and capacity. And I think the more, frankly, the more the allies talk in that way,

more independent capability and capacity, more ability to do it ourselves, the more they can actually count on the Trump administration being ready to continue to be involved in Europe and continue to be working together with the European NATO allies as well as with Canada. And we saw that, I think, also expressed in Pete Hegs' memorandum to the Pentagon that was leaked when he said, what we want in Europe is not dependence on

but allies. And what they mean by allies, they mean true allies, true allies that have all the military capability, all the defense capacity available to do what needs to be done. And then the United States can come in behind that as an equal ally to participate, but not as the ally who actually provides all the capability.

And Mark Rutter has repeated what NATO members said last year, which is that Ukraine is on an irreversible path to membership. Many feel, at least, like the Trump administration has been less enthusiastic than that. What's your view? And do you think the US position will soften over time?

Well, there's a great deal of nuance in how this has been batted back and forth over the last couple of weeks. I like to tell people to read very carefully Mr. Hegseth's speech at the Defense Ministerial, which was on the Thursday before the Munich Security Conference. Obviously, it created a great deal of uproar at the time. But when I read it, I said, oh, this isn't too bad.

What Hegseth said, very precisely, was that NATO membership for Ukraine cannot be on the table for this war termination package.

I said, great, of course. We understood that NATO membership cannot be achieved in a day. It is a process that the Ukrainians will go through. Meanwhile, the Ukrainians have gotten the go-ahead from Moscow to proceed with accession talks to the European Union, and those accession talks began last June.

To me, this is hugely ironic because it was the EU agreement in 2012 that the Russians tried to prevent that from happening. And then the Maidan protests and the first invasion of Ukraine, the seizure of Crimea back 10 plus years ago. So it was the EU that was the initial barrier. But now the Russians are saying EU membership for NATO's fine. I mean, for Ukraine is fine.

And now I'm saying everything that the Ukrainians do to get through their EU accession process. And as you know, they have to go through several chapters, very difficult on governance, on fighting corruption, on dealing with the common agricultural policy. All of these steps will also prepare Ukraine for NATO membership.

So I would never give up on NATO membership for Ukraine, even if it cannot be part of this war termination package. And it should prepare for NATO membership in the way it's been doing by building up its armed forces, showing its very capable ability to fight if it has to. I mean, it's the most operationally ready army in Europe today.

So that's one part. But then the other part is on the governance side, anti-corruption, etc. So working on that with the EU will prepare it for NATO membership as well.

Rose, thank you. That's Rose Gotemuller, former NATO Deputy Secretary General. And while NATO foreign ministers discuss and try to agree on defence spending in Brussels, their presidents and prime ministers are currently arguing about tariffs. We've spent the last couple of days looking at why China could be the winner from Liberation Day.

and whether the world could sue Trump over his tariffs. Both episodes are well worth 10 minutes of your time. That's it from us. Thank you for taking 10 minutes to stay on top of the world with the help of The Times. We'll see you tomorrow.

This episode is sponsored by Womble Bond Dickinson, an international law firm of more than 1,300 lawyers across 37 offices in the United States and United Kingdom. In today's complex world, new problems need new perspectives. Womble Bond Dickinson thrives on change, bringing together people with different skill sets and experiences to give their clients a competitive edge.

Across a range of markets, they support businesses and private clients on critical challenges, from energy transition, digital transformation, and cross-border investment, to corporate finance, dispute resolution, and personal wealth planning. All with a mix of minds you won't find anywhere else. Womblebong Dickinson. A point of view like no other.

Discover more at WombleBoneDickinson.com.

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