Trump warned Ukraine can keep fighting without US support
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Welcome to The World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. I'm Stuart Willey with Toby Gillis. Donald Trump has blamed Ukraine for starting the war in 2022, insisting Volodymyr Zelensky could have struck a deal to ensure it never happened.

He's also encouraged the Ukrainian president to announce an election, claiming his approval ratings are 4%, even as a Ukrainian opinion poll has them at 57%. Zelensky says Trump is living in a bubble of disinformation fed by the Kremlin, as relations between the two appear to sour increasingly. So can they ever find an accord?

And is Mr. Trump right about either element? Our guest today is the Ukrainian MP, Alex Goncharenko. Alex, in your mind, is there any deal Zelensky could have put to the Ukrainian people back in 2022 that they'd have accepted?

Ukrainians never wanted this war. We never wanted it from the first day till today, after 1000 days of the war, even more. We want peace. But the problem is that Russia from the very first day, their aim was to wipe out Ukraine from the map of the world. That's all.

Russia is not interested in all this blah blah blah about NATO and everything else. Finland and Sweden joined NATO and now Russia has more than 1,000 borders between Finland and Russia is bigger than border between Ukraine and Russia.

So Finland joined NATO, so what? For example, and I can give you many more examples. So Russia just want to take back Ukraine as a part of Russia, as a part of the empire, just to take Ukrainian people to attack then Baltic states, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Moldova, Finland, and so on. That's all what Russia wants. That is absolutely for sure.

In the aftermath of Donald Trump's comments, do you get a sense any of that feeling around a deal with Russia is changing?

First of all, I think we need to be quite cold-blooded towards talking and words and all this stuff because there is a lot of this happening and the easiest thing for us to be, you know, offended or something like this, but we are not in kindergarten. We are too young.

two adults, we're dying here every day. So that's not the thing we need. We need American allies in order to survive and in order to protect our countries. And I'm sure that America also needs us. And I'm sure that the worst thing United States and civilized world can receive is success of Putin. Because success of Putin will just embolden not only him alone, but other dictators and tyrants too.

and that would be a bloodshed throughout the whole planet. Do we want peace? Yes, we do. We want peace. Do I like the fact that Ukrainians are not at the table for the moment? No, I don't like it. But what do I need? I need to sit at the table or I need the result? I need the result. So I think that's the time to say clearly what is acceptable for Ukraine and what is unacceptable. And I think we need to say that the most important for us should be first,

Ukrainian territories, yes, today they are occupied by Russia. Yes, today it looks like we can't regain control over them. Yes, it looks like they will be controlled by Russia for some time, but they are Ukrainian territories. And the day will come, this empire will fall apart like it happened before, and we will take back our territories.

So no recognition of this to be Russia. That's the first thing. Second thing is security guarantees, because in other case they will attack again. Third thing is our sovereignty. I mean the right of Ukrainian people to decide on our own behalf where do we want to go. We want to be member of European Union. We want to ask us to take to NATO.

Yeah, it's right of NATO to take us or not, but we should have our own right to decide where we want to go. And it's time to seize Russian assets because we need this money right now. So that's, I think, should be our red lines. And we should say this openly. And we should say, President Trump, we believe in you as a negotiator. That's something which for us is essential, crucial. So please make a deal.

and give us these things, and we will praise you as the best negotiator in the world. And if Trump comes back and says, we've done a deal, and those red lines aren't met, for example, it appears he doesn't want to offer US security guarantees just now. In this case, we just need to tell with all respect, but it's not American Marines who are fighting in Ukraine, and it's not American Marines who stop Russians, it's Ukrainian army.

From what I already told you, it's already a compromised position. I mean, we're not telling kick off Russians completely from any inch of our territory and things like this, because I want to be realistic how it looks like for the moment. But if there is no security guarantees, this war will be back very soon. And how you as the president of the United States will look like. And when we're saying the word red line, it is red line. So it's something we shall crossable.

Do you feel sure, Alex, that the talks with Russia will go the way that many think they'll go? I mean, some think Trump might actually have been deliberately warm towards Putin just in order to get him to the table at all. And they might come down harder when they're actually round the table.

Yeah, it's absolutely possible. Maybe that is his strategy. I just don't know. The only thing here we should understand is that the fact of negotiations themselves, they help Putin. So, I mean, if the negotiations will be successful, just more or less just terms, that would be great for all of us, for Ukraine, for the civilized world.

But if it will be just negotiations with no result for some time, it helps Putin. He's out of international isolation. He feels emboldened. He shows to Russian people and to his allies that he is respected. He is a very important guy and so on and so on. So, I mean...

Here, maybe that's also a trick of Putin. Maybe he is there at the table not to find any solution, but just to be at the table because it suits him for the moment and to win time. Alex, suppose Trump doesn't get a deal that he's satisfied with and then just walks away. He's had enough and U.S. involvement is over. Is there any way Ukraine could continue this war or win the war?

In one question you used two different terms. Are you able to continue the war, you asked, and then you said, are you able to win the war? Yeah, are we able to win the war without the United States? Answer is no. Are we able to continue the war without the United States? Yes.

And to have kind of a stalemate and not to give Russia much more Ukrainian land. Yes, we can. Again, just we are not Afghanistan. We are fighting on our own ourselves.

Ukrainian troops are fighting, not American. And we started this war having almost no Western weaponry, just American javelins and British and lost. That's all we had. But believe me, it's good for guerrilla fighting, not for a full conventional war like it happened. But we fought this war. So are we able? Yes, we are. But it's a very bad scenario. It's a bad scenario for everybody. So we need...

to do everything we can in order to prevent this scenario to happen.

Now, away from any potential deal, Trump also called for a Ukrainian election. If you believe a recent poll, Zelensky is actually very popular on the ground in Ukraine. Does that actually make an election worthwhile for him to reinforce his position or just a distraction from the war? First, that will not be just a distraction. That is physically impossible.

I just want people to understand this. And by the way, I don't like comment of Zelensky on this. When he said, no, I don't have four, I have 57. Sorry, it's not the time to tell who has bigger.

something. It's not the time. And it doesn't matter. Zelensky is legitimate president of Ukraine till the next elections. Ukraine is democracy. We will have elections. But when? When the hostilities will end and when there will be security guarantees that Russia will not attack us right now. Because in other case, we will go to elections and Russia will go on tents to Kyiv again. That's what will happen.

So physically we can't have elections today. It's physically impossible.

Because everyday missile attacks, drone attacks, we can have elections only in shelters. How many people will go to shelters? We don't have enough from shelters. What to do on the front line? And so on and so on. So we physically can't have elections. So that would be the right answer to President Trump saying, you are absolutely right. Democracy, we are democracy. We need to have elections. But when? The circumstances will allow this. We just need security. That's all.

and we will go to elections. It's just not the moment.

OK, Alex Goncharenko, Ukrainian MP, thank you for your insight. Now, one of the concerns swirling around the potential outcome of this critical moment in the Ukraine war is that it ends with nothing better than a fragile ceasefire, a so-called frozen war in which neither side is satisfied. That's an issue we took a deep dive into on last Monday's World in 10. Do go back and listen. But for now, thank you for taking 10 minutes to stay on top of the world with the help of The Times. And we'll see you tomorrow.

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