Episode 30: Interview with Bryan Green; Author, Podcast Host & Entrepreneur of Go Be More
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Always focus on doing the highest quality work at the level you can do it now and focus on changing it and improving it later when you know you're ready. Welcome to Chasing Life podcast where we talk about fitness, running, career and life tips to inspire you to live your best life. I'm your host Sarah Kane and I hope you enjoy today's episode.

Welcome to another episode of Chasing Life. I'm your host, Sarah, and today's guest is Brian Green. Brian is a former collegiate runner turned author, podcast host, and entrepreneur. During this episode, we talk about his book, Make the Leap, which provides athletes and coaches a step-by-step guide to thinking more effectively about all aspects of training.

We also discussed his two podcasts, how we each got started with podcasting, what life lessons we have learned from these projects, and his inspiration with co-founding Gobi Moore, an apparel company. It was so easy to talk to Brian that we talked for over an hour, and we really found that we had a lot in common, a lot of things that we could connect with, and so I hope you enjoy our conversation.

As a reminder, if you aren't already subscribed to the show to please do so, and it helps other listeners to be able to find my content. Better yet, take a screenshot and share this on social media and tag me at Chasing Life Podcast. Hope you enjoy our conversation. Hi.

Hi, Brian. Thank you for being here. My pleasure. I'm very excited to be here. It's nice to put a face to the name too, because I've listened to your voice on your podcast. So I recognize your voice, but now I have a- It's funny, right? I listen to a lot of podcasts and I feel like I know the people and I realized that if I met them, I wouldn't, they wouldn't know me in the same way, right? It's a very-

one directional sort of thing right so it's great to meet you in this sense as well I very much recognize that feeling that you have in the same way yeah I think it's the same way like you know growing up with radio DJs too you listen to their voice on the radio all the time and then for me I kind

kind of an audio person. And so I'll recognize a person's voice before I can think of their name. Yeah. I relate to that as well. I'm thinking of myself as being very visual in the sense that when I see somebody, I'm like, oh, I've seen that person before, but I'm not very good at placing things perfectly. It's just sort of like, no, I know we've met, but I have no idea where that kind of thing happens to me a lot. So, and then on top of that, I'm just terrible with names.

I relate to that very much as well. And I'll tell you a little thing. I have made a commitment to myself to stop saying that I'm terrible with names. I feel like it's not an easy thing for me. I'm trying to reframe it in a different way, right? It's a little bit of a challenge. It's not my strong suit or something, but I felt like for a long time I would meet someone

And I would be like, I just want you to know I'm really terrible with names. And I would like basically say it as an excuse for why I was going to forget their name. Right. And that's one of those things where I've decided, oh, here's a small thing. I can change the way I approach this and I can actually own it a little bit and be a little bit better. It doesn't always work. I still struggle, I guess. But yeah, it's one of those little things, you know, where I relate to that very much because I feel so bad when I'm

speaking to somebody for the fifth time and I'm thinking to myself, I can't ask them anymore. This is way too awkward at this point. No, I think that's a good point though, of just trying to have that more positive thought process instead of just making an excuse for your whole life of like, well, I'm terrible with names, so I'm not going to bother trying to get better at it. If you say, I'm going to work on trying to get better at remembering people's names, then that improves the cycle of it all.

That's it. I mean, it's a small thing, but you got to start somewhere, right? So you might as well start with accepting that it's difficult, but doable, right? And then when you start there, now you have a strategy, you can move forward. If you just basically say like, well, I suck. Okay, there's no reason to put any effort in anymore. It's so funny. It's a small thing, has nothing to do with running. And yet the same principles that I write about in the book, you're talking about how you, your fixed mindset or something like that. If you have a fixed mindset about remembering people's names, you just basically be like, I just don't want to look bad.

in a situation where I have to, whereas if you have a more of a growth mindset, you can say to yourself, you know what? Like I can do this. I just need to figure out a strategy that works for me and I need to own it and I need to treat it like a process. And yeah, that's a great comparison too, of the fixed first growth mindset. Isn't just about athletics or,

being successful in your career, but just life in general. Absolutely. I think it's one of those things where I don't think anybody has a fixed mindset or has a growth mindset. I think what we have is a fixed mindset about some things and a growth mindset about some things. And I think we think both of them are completely normal for the things that we think about, right? Where we apply them. I'm guilty of it a hundred percent. In fact, I think part of, you know, my whole journey in

Gobi Moore and writing the book has been a journey of overcoming my default, which was more of a fixed mindset and trying to build a growth mindset in some areas where I maybe didn't have it by default, if that makes sense. Yeah. I feel like we just kind of like dove right in without me even giving you a chance to introduce yourself. So you are an author of Make the Leap book. Can you tell our listeners what inspired you to

write that book and maybe your background that as a runner to writing that book to share with other athletes. Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start with as a runner because I think of myself as a very talented runner. Running came very easy to me. I was very good very quickly without

putting a ton of effort in. I was very quickly became one of the best in my area and all that kind of stuff. But you know, there's a difference between being like 99th percentile and 99.9th percentile sort of thing, right? So like I was very good for my like high school level, but I wasn't really elite in any sense. And a lot of instances, my early success kind of masked the fact I was not putting in the kind of effort I could have put in. I was not treating it as seriously as I could have. I wasn't getting nearly

my potential out of myself in the sport. And I didn't even a hundred percent appreciate that. I didn't really even understand that that's what I was doing. I thought, well, I show up, I run every day. I go to practice, you know, that kind of thing. And so I went to UCLA, I joined the team and I was, you know, the fifth or sixth guy on the cross country team. I was happy. I was making the team and stuff, but I saw all these guys I used to run against in high school who were suddenly way better than me. And it really kind of challenged me. I was like, that doesn't make any sense because we're just as good as each other. And now they're

much better than me. And around that same time, as I was sort of realizing that something in my framework for how I thought about my running was wrong, I started taking classes in education, social psychology, learning theory, all these other areas. And

in getting introduced into these frameworks for how learning happens and how a lot of ways to think about being more successful. And I realized I don't really do any of this stuff. Like I'm sort of like, I'm really like sabotaging myself in some sense by the way I approach things. And I really made a conscious effort to apply those into my training. And the funny thing is that our professors, our teachers all wanted us to do it in our classwork. And I didn't really do it in my classwork. I just put it all of it into my running because that's what I was so more passionate about. Right. And I saw

really immediate improvements. And that just kind of led me down this path of believing that these concepts work, of course, because I'd seen it once. After college, I didn't run competitively very seriously. I joined some local running teams. I did stuff like that. But I moved to Japan and I decided to try to learn Japanese. And I said, well, I'll just use all the same principles that I used to get better at running. And then it helped me to learn Japanese and then got a career. I started working in tech and I

started using it to learn new software and just whatever. Like I just had this mindset that this framework that whenever I was struggling, I would fall back on them. And I started feeling like this should be a book. This should be out there in some sense for people to use. I looked for the book. I assumed somebody else had kind of already written it. I sort of, you know, I did that thing where you just assume. And when I didn't find it, I said, I kind of said, you know, like this is something I could do. Like I can write this. I believe it. I understand it.

I'm passionate about it. I always kind of wanted to write a book. So why don't I just do it? 10 years later, I finally convinced myself to sort of like really do it right. It took me a long time, but that's how the book came about. And the idea was to write a book for the athlete who might be more like me, who was

talented and had a lot of potential and was willing to do the work, but just might not have a framework to base their training in. Right. And now after this long sort of journey, the book is written, it's out. And now it's about getting it in people's hands and trying to, you know, get people to read it and get the feedback.

Yeah, and I have the book in my hands, and I just loved it. I read 100 pages the first day I got it. You were able to sort of plow through it. I look at it as a book. You can go deep on it if you want, but I tried to write it for younger people who are getting into the sport. They're like maybe upperclassmen in high school or they're junior college or they're just starting college because...

I feel like they don't get taught a lot of this type of stuff in classes. You learn a lot of content and you don't necessarily learn a lot of frameworks or strategies or stuff, right? And my ultimate goal is that it's accessible.

as a book that you could just read through and ideally just plow through it in some sense and then come back to it when there's the thing you want to really dive into. You don't have to feel like you're wading through some academic book. So that was my goal in trying to, I don't know the right way to put it, but like the tone, you know, the content, how I tried to think it through. I'm new to it all, so I'm not really an expert in any of it, but that was the intent. Yeah, no, I thought you did great. And even though I've been writing for 10 years, had a lot of topics that I could relate to. One of the ones that I...

I really connected with was the hidden training program. Can you talk a little bit about that? I stole this from educational psychology, right? There's a concept called the hidden curriculum. The hidden curriculum is all these things that nobody formally teaches you, but that you have to learn to be successful. Right. And I realized that this is the exact same concept in training. Like your coach is going to give you intervals and they're going to give you weight training and stretching routines. And some of these things that they're going to do for you that are going to help you. These are the core things you need to do.

But if you really want to be successful, and this is my definition of the hidden training program is what do you really need to do to be successful? Like you got to do more than that. That's the bare minimum, what your coaches are giving you. It's the core. But if you're not

looking more broadly at what you need to do for your situation to be successful, then you're not going to be as successful as you need to be. And to put it in the context of like my experience in college is I started looking at my lifestyle and I said, you know what? I'm not really being as diligent as I should be about some of these ancillary activities like sit-ups and core work and stretching.

I'm still going out at night with friends and I'm waking up in the morning feeling really tired. These are little things, but they're not little things because they add up big time over the course of a season or a career. I think one of the things I've been coming to realize from getting feedback from people and really thinking about it even more since I published the book is that the hidden training program is kind of the same for everybody in that it's like, it's kind of, a lot of people say, oh yeah, it's like your lifestyle. And I think that's kind of true, but

More recently, I've been starting to notice that it's, I think it's actually really different for different people. Like everybody has a different thing that they need to do in their situation to get the most out of themselves. It might be overcoming something in their environment. It might be, you know, some relationships that they have to sort of improve. It might be their own psychological challenges that they're working through. Those are the kinds of things that

in my mind fall under the hidden training program. And they're not necessarily the same. They're not uniform for everybody. Like it can be very specific to you. Like you might have issues and challenges in your hidden training program that I just don't have. And that's normal, right? Yeah, I agree. Some of the things that I feel like I could work on is my nutrition. I have a bit of a sweet tooth. And so although I meal prep and anybody who knows me knows I religiously meal prep every week. But outside of that, I also...

get excited if I find a bag of jelly beans in my cupboard and then I devour it that day. So that kind of thing I had to really think about and say, okay, well, yeah, my race might be six months away, but if I have a bag of jelly beans every week, like that's probably not really helping my muscle recovery, um,

And in the long run, that's not going to help me or just being conscious of sleep. I think that's an excellent point of, well, all runners may understand kind of the core of our training being the workouts outside of that. You know, we all have different factors. Like I don't have any kids to juggle and somebody might, you know, trying to figure out what schedule works best for them for their running. And so that was a really big point that I could relate to a lot and realize that I could improve. Yeah.

Well, and you know, it's a real luxurious thing to be able to focus 100% of your time on one particular goal, but most of us don't have that luxury, right? We have a job, we have our goals for our training, we have our family, we have our whatever the other things are. And we're always balancing those things. I use a model in the book called the momentum model, where you sort of just try to look at your forces, what forces are moving you toward your goal, and what forces are moving you against your goal. And sometimes, you know,

Something you really care about is actually like a negative force towards one of your other goals. Like that's just the reality of our life is, is it could be the case of your job. You're passionate about your job. You love your job. You want to get better at it. You want to ascend. You want to take on more leadership and you also want to train for triathlons. Well, yeah.

That is not a bad thing in and of itself, but that's a reality that you have to deal with because, you know, just because something is positive doesn't mean it's also pushing you towards where you want to get to. Right. And those things,

types of things. Nutrition is a good, is a great example. When you're talking about the hidden training program and stuff, I often talk about nutrition and sleep because those two things I think are sleep is uniformly underappreciated, I think in general by most people, especially young people. And nutrition is one of those, those

those classic ones where you can go as far as you want to go, right? And everybody has their sweet tooth or their weakness. And some people are really into it and they want to count every calorie and they want to do all the stuff. And other people just, what they really need is just really simple rules that they can follow that keep them more or less on track because that's what's going to work for them. But that's a great example for me. I think of nutrition is a great one where I think it is part of everybody's hidden training program. And yet the way you approach it could be completely

completely different. So another point that I really liked was the think better, train better. Can you expand a little bit on that? I was trying to find out, come up with something catchy, to be perfectly honest, like something that really like that stands out. And that's general in that, in the sense that I think

don't think everybody has the same problems in terms of how they approach training. Some people are great at goal setting and some people are terrible at it. And some people are great at crafting an environment that keeps them disciplined. And some people are terrible at it. Some people are great at recognizing our hidden training program and other people are terrible at it. Right. And

So we all can be different in what we need. So think better, train better was my way of saying, let's start with how you're thinking about training. And I'm going to use in this book, I'm going to give you a bunch of different ways to think about different aspects of training. And what I expect is that anybody reading the book, some of them will feel like obvious, like, yeah, of course, that's what I already do. Some people are going to plow through certain chapters and be like, that just totally makes sense. And then they're going to go to another chapter and go like, ooh.

maybe I never thought about that that way before, right? And two different people will look at those two different chapters in completely opposite ways, right? So I will say one thing, and here's a little mental model I use right in the beginning of the book. I literally do think of our brains as little mini factories. And the whole point of our brain is to make predictions about the world and to set expectations about what's going to come to understand reality because that's how you navigate. And if you are using...

frameworks, I use the general frameworks or a mindset. Let's say a fixed mindset where you believe you're completely limited by your talent and you don't have the ability to improve beyond what your talent limits you to. That fundamentally changes how you think about

whatever challenge you're facing. You're not going to put the same kind of energy into it literally because of the way you think about it. And so as a simple framework, I like to start there and just say, your brain is a factory that's going to be running 24-7 no matter what you do. You might as well figure out how to improve the machinery or improve the inputs or improve the processes you're doing in your daily life in order to get better results. Because

it's all starting there. No matter what, no matter what you want, that's where it starts. Right. I think that's very helpful. And for me, I've been diving into more sports psychology in the last few months just to say, okay, my training is there, but what more can I do to help improve my mindset around it? The most recent marathon I ran, did I hold myself back because I was afraid of what my legs would feel like? And so I'm thinking like, okay, if I really want to achieve something,

a big goal. My current big goal is qualifying for Boston. And so it's like, what can I do? I can work on the strength. I can work on the running, but if my mind isn't the right place to believe that I could actually run the times that I need to, then I'm going to be holding myself back. Even if my body is in the shape that it needs to. And yes, the reality of something like that, that is a fantastic goal. And I have no doubt that you can do that.

Like from the outside, I don't even know you because I just assume that of course you can do it. You've got the ability, you've got all the, everything you need. I think there's a lot about,

picking that goal and going for it. The goal itself, qualifying for Boston is a fantastic goal. So what's the time you have to run? Can you remind me? Is it like? Yeah. So for my age, I'll be training for a 335. Okay, perfect. So 335. Yeah. Something like 335. You can look at that as a time. You can look at that as a certain fitness level. You can look at it as qualifying for Boston. You can look at, you can define that goal however you want. But I think at the end of the day, whether that goal works for you or not is really based off of how you

plan for the goal, like how you strategize towards the goal and how choosing that goal forces you to identify the things that are going to keep you from achieving it. And so I have this little saying that in the book, goals are worthless, but goal setting is everything. And

I kind of like it because it's provocative and stuff, but I also like the fact that there is some truth to it. Qualifying for Boston is you could change the goal and just be like, no, I want to run a 325. Okay, 325 is an equally good goal. There's no reason not to choose that goal. If you tell me which of the two should I go for, I'd be like, I don't know, whichever one motivates you to train harder and to do the work. And that's where I feel like we sometimes get a little bit hung up on

picking a goal and then assuming that because we picked the goal that we've done the work, right? That it's going to have that effect that we need. And the reality of it is, I think actually, if the goal doesn't resonate with you in some way that literally drives you, that resonates internally, that lights a fire in you. If it doesn't include some component of a plan where you identify potential roadblocks and obstacles, if it doesn't connect with your values as a person and as your priorities as a person, all these little things

If you pick a goal like that and it doesn't resonate in those ways, you're not going to achieve it and it's not going to help you to get where you want to go. There's a little bit more to goal setting than I think just picking something that sounds really cool. Right. I think that's a great point. I've had outside of my job or running, um,

that you just pick a goal because somebody tells you that that's the goal you should go for. And then you struggle to get it because you're like, well, somebody tells me I should do that. And so I should work toward it. And then you're struggling so much because it's not one that aligns with your values where like Boston, when that became within my realm, I

I feel like all fires are going now. And so even if it's say two years out because of the cycle of everything, I'm still like, okay, well that's two years. I will dedicate the next two years to working toward this goal. And, and even though I've been running for 10 years, I have just gotten a running training journal. I've gotten like,

running recovery sandals, like all these things. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to add all of these tiny little things and, you know, identify myself more as a runner, even though people who know me already know that I run, but it's like, okay, I'm going for this really big goal now. So I got to do everything I can for it. But this is something that really lights a fire with me and connects with me. And so it makes it easier to put in the work toward it because one, it seems achievable to me. And two, it's,

it really supports my values. So yeah. No, the thing I hear from you too, is it seems achievable, but difficult, which is what a good goal should be. Right. It can't be just like, oh, well, my goal is to go outside and run three miles. Like, well, whatever, like that's not a goal. Right. So I think there's an aspect to it that, that it fits that perfectly. The clear sign to me that it's the right type of goal is that you're changing your behavior in order to achieve it. Like you're buying journals or you're, you're doing new things because that's fundamentally what your goal should be doing for you.

your goal should be driving behavioral change, not just something you think about at night and then just live your life as you're always living it. Right. One of the things you said that stood out to me is the fact that you are already identified as a runner. Like you may be self-identified as a runner and your friends self-identified with you as a runner and you're sort of going more into it. And there's another concept in the book, but it's, it sounds to me like you're just engaging more in the sport. One of the big things for me, this was what unlocked my running is,

was actually saying to myself realizing like I am actually not that engaged in this sport like I go to practice every day I run and then I don't think about running for the rest of the day like I don't do anything I don't follow the pros I don't read books about running I don't like back when I was training I would like go to practice and work my butt off and then I would go home and literally like not put a lot of effort or time into thinking about running this idea of being engaged

was critical for me. It was probably the one idea that fundamentally shifted the most for me in terms of

how I thought about my running was doing a little more to understand the sport or to participate a little bit more in some other aspect of the sport, or I don't know, learn the history, whatever the thing is that you, that drives you because all these little activities you do, they serve to define you. And when they, when you start to define yourself more, you get more committed. And when you're getting more committed, you do better work because you want to be more

quality oriented and you want to live up to those expectations that you're setting for yourself. And this is feedback loop that feeds on itself. And the more you

do this stuff, it contributes to success in tiny little ways throughout your day, throughout your week. And I want to say, this is not a running concept. Like if you're at work and you're going to work and you're putting, and you're leaving work and you're never thinking about your work, there might be a little bit of a problem there because I don't, you know, I don't want to recommend that everybody 24 seven think about their work, that you'd be obsessed with it, but there's some amount of engagement. You want to be mentally inspired and challenged and into it in order to keep reaching a higher level at what you're doing. Right.

Yeah. And I think you're absolutely right about becoming more engaged because I've read more running books in the last six months or even three months than I have in the previous 10 years. And I really wasn't following a lot of pro runners or even subscribe to a running magazine. I could follow them on a Facebook page and read an article here and there, but not having it as a part of my daily or regular routine.

weekly, I guess, reading, if you will. So I'm definitely more engaged now. Even though I would do the workouts, I would sign up for the races. But outside of that, I wasn't doing a lot to connect with the sport. Yeah. And I would say to most people listening, like I'm not really advocating that you go like full bore, get obsessed with running or whatever other thing. It's more just that there's like a spectrum, like a continuum, right? And if you can nudge yourself a little bit farther along by...

finding that one aspect of the sport that's really interesting. You know what I like to do personally? It's not even just about running. Like for me, I'm more interested in psychology than running at this point. Like that's more what I'm interested in, but I use running as an area to apply the ideas I learn in psychology. So I will read about some new thing that's

maybe written about organizational psychology or some nerdy thing that I read some article, right? And I'll say, huh, I wonder if that applies to a running team or I'll wonder if I could take that nugget from this thing and apply it in running. And I do it in other places too. Like I kind of feel like as much as, you know, it's fun to talk about it in the running context, engaging doesn't have to mean only focusing on

running. It can be literally taking something that you're already doing and that you're interested in and passionate about and trying to find connections to other things and using what you already have learned about running to maybe give you a better way of thinking about your work or giving you a better way to think about your family life, or, or, or maybe you're looking at, you know, community organizing, organizing something. And I always feel like there's so many of the main concepts that I

try to base my life around. They're fundamental enough that they kind of apply anywhere. Like they're not running specific, right? But the fact that I can apply them in running helps me to think about how to apply them somewhere else. Yeah, because running is...

Yeah, something that you're passionate about. And so you can help to make that connection and then expand it elsewhere too. I joked like the frameworks in the book are really good for one particular aspect of your life where it requires a lot of focus and dedication and hard work over time. I feel like if you read my book, you're going to get a lot of ideas that are going to hopefully help you do that better. It's not really going to give you any insight into like the US political system. It's not going to give you any insight into lots of other areas of our life that might be really important and that we might care about. But

I think there are core fundamental principles that really are transferable across a lot of domains. Yeah, I agree. Especially one of your key points, I mean, the name of the book is Make the Leap. Can you kind of expand on that concept?

Yeah, I'd love to. So this was probably the thing that I had to figure out before I was ready to write the book, because I had this idea and I didn't know how to frame it. Actually, I had to learn a little bit about some sort of math and technology adoption. And suddenly it all kind of clicked with me in some sense. So there's this idea of compounding.

And people have heard about this. You learn about it when you learn about investing and finance and stuff, right? And it's this idea that if you take your interest, you get your 1% or something and you put it back in. And then the next time you get 1.01 and you get a little bit more every time it gets a little bit more, a little bit more.

And if you do this long enough, what happens is all of those little increases keep going up and up and up. And suddenly you start to get these crazy big gains. And I always understood it, but I never applied it to running because the reality is you can't just go from doing tiny little gains to suddenly being like the fastest person in the world. It just doesn't happen. Right. So it didn't, it didn't apply, but.

Actually, I do believe this concept is really critical and it fits with my experience and it fits with most of the people that when I speak with their running is that we do have this experience of your training for a long time and you're doing good work and you're making small improvements every day.

And you don't really see a lot of improvement though. You're just sort of training. And then suddenly, all of a sudden things seem to click. And next thing you know, you're like, oh, I just ran a big PR or, oh, it's all suddenly easier now. I do this loop and now all of a sudden this loop is, I'm doing it faster and I don't even, I don't know what changed. That feeling, that sense is what I call a leap. And I think it's a very normal part of training. And the reality is it is based off of

the idea of compounding and the idea of tiny gains on a day-by-day basis can lead to big jumps in the future. The only difference is there's kind of a limit on how high you could jump. That's where I think I had to understand. And that limit is sort of what you're, what I call it, your short-term potential. It's sort of like, this is as good as you're going to get in the amount of time you have if you do everything right. We don't just improve linearly up to that point. We sort of improve slowly, almost invisibly. And then we like suddenly improve and then we plateau again. And

When I started working that out, looking at my friends who had run, I looked at myself, I realized there's kind of three phases. You have a build phase, a leap phase, and a sustain phase. And the build phase is just you're doing the work, but you're not really seeing the benefits right away, right? You're just sort of laying the groundwork, right? You're building. Then the leap phase is suddenly the improvements all happen. And you're like, whoa, look at me. I'm running so much faster. And then the sustain phase is...

oh, I leveled off again and now I'm sort of, I plateaued. And when you look at somebody's career, what often you find is that there's long build phases and then a little leap and then they sustain, they plateau. And then,

They decide, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to change some aspect. I'm going to train a little bit better. I'm going to train a little bit harder. I'm going to train a little bit. I'm going to improve my hidden training program. I'm going to do these things. And then they start to build again. And then they make another leap. And you keep doing this cycle. Every time you increase your quality and every time you increase the overall quality of the training you're doing,

You transition from a sustain phase to a build phase and you can kind of keep doing this. The leaps get smaller, you know, like as you get better and better, the leaps get smaller and they might take longer to get to. But here's the thing. The key thing about it is I really think for me, what I like about this concept is not only that it matches the data you see when people train and run, it's that it helps to

internalize and not get frustrated by the fact that you might be doing a lot of work and not seeing a lot of benefits right now. The benefits do come and they often come quickly and surprisingly, but you don't exactly know when they're going to come and you have to kind of have some faith that they're going to come. And this is this, for me, this framework helps me to

trust that the work I'm doing, it's going to result in the results that I'm trying to get to. Yes, I agree. One of the things that pops right into my mind and a reminder is trust the process. And that's sometimes really hard for runners. And I think people in general, like you want to almost see the instantaneous results, but running in particular, it takes time to see improvements. And I know like for my running, I went from

10 minute miles to now imagining qualifying for Boston, which is like eight minute miles. And so, but that's been progressed over 10 years and it's all a matter of just trusting the process. And again, not knowing when I was going to hit that leap, which is what happened with my most recent marathon was I dropped a PR by 13 minutes. And then all of a sudden now like Boston qualifying is in my realm of possibilities. And so, yeah, that was like a really cool thing to see happen. But yeah,

again, what you just said, like just trusting that the work that you're putting in is going to pay off. Yeah. I'm so impressed by that. And I think like probably you go back through your 10 years and the, the challenge is when I, even I'll speak to pros and I'll say like, Oh, did you ever have this? And I was like, no, no, it's just really linear. It just kind of goes along. It's just, and then you go look and it's like,

It's like, well, maybe, but, but the thing is that all, like all these leaps, they can kind of look linear over time if you're doing them consistently and you're just sort of charting them out when you're really looking at a lot of it. The simple truth is if you are training the same way, exactly the same way for 10 years, you're probably going to get marginally better results. You're not going to get that much better.

The real way to progress is to train to the level you can train with high quality today. Do what you can, like, don't try to overdo it. Do the best high quality training you can in this moment. And then trust the process, do the work,

get to the point where you make even a small leap and you get that, that benefits from it and then reevaluate and, and find some little area to improve a little bit more and how big these changes you make and how much you invest in it. That's just depends on how much you care. Like at a certain point, like the pros are going to be looking to find every tiny little thing they can because they're

it's make or break for their entire career, their sponsors, all this stuff, you know, where they finish. And maybe for you and me, it's like, okay, well, this is one of many things in my life. I can identify a few key areas that I think will make more of a difference and that I would be excited to do, right? I'm not going to put myself, make myself miserable trying to do them and just increase the quality where I can. And then as I get used to doing that and it becomes a new routine,

Now I take it a little step back and say, Oh, maybe I can do this. Right. And that's the way we should train. It's actually the way the pros do train pro coach never takes a young runner. And he's like, you know, we're going to train you like the old veterans right now. Like they build them up, always focus on doing the highest quality work at the level you can do it now and focus on changing it and improving it later when you know you're ready.

Thank you. I think that's a great reminder. I have a question about your background. I know you're training for Boston. What do you do for a career? So my full-time job is working actually at a university doing their finance and HR work. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So my education background is business administration. And actually one of my favorite courses was organizational behavior because it has that psychology component to it. Maybe I should have dived a little bit more into that now that I'm recognizing my interest in it later in life. But you know what?

You always can. I actually, that's one of those things where I wanted to ask you that because then the other question was sort of, I'm curious why you chose to start the podcast. That's a good question. I would say seven, eight years ago, I started a blog. I guess I wanted to just share my running and fitness journey so that other people, especially women would maybe either feel less alone or just feel like they could relate to my story and realize that they could do what I'm doing too. And that blog kind of,

went to the wayside, you know, what was blog posts are now Instagram posts. I have been listening to podcasts for like six years now. I used to commute 40 minutes to work. And so that's when I really started getting more into them. And then over the last year,

I just kind of kept having this feeling of like, well, you can share your story. And I would hear other people on the podcast and I'm like, well, I can do that. So I just kind of like took the leap, um, August of 2020 that I published my first episode. I had no idea really what I was doing and I've definitely learned a lot along the way, but.

To me, it's been an opportunity, especially when I have guests, of just connecting with people and hearing their stories and having a platform to share other people's stories. And so I've really enjoyed that, especially with the pandemic and being isolated from social activities from people. This is a way for me to meet and connect.

just talk with people about topics that I enjoy. And so it's really just brought a lot of kind of fulfillment into my days. You said you got to know me, who I am by listening to some of our podcasts. And it was funny you say that is, I was a podcast listener for like 10 years and I was always listening to them. And I had the same thing, a commute. I had my friends who I would listen to. They don't know me, but I know them sort of thing, right? I always wanted to do it. And I literally, I'm not a good starter. I'm a good executor.

in a sense, but I'm a really slow starter. As a point of weakness for myself, let's say, is I'm not the best at like overcoming that initial friction of just getting something started. Like I see all the friction, I think like that's,

It's exhausting. And I don't do it. It's something I'm working on. We started our company, Gobi Moore. I'm going to talk about this a little bit because it's about the podcast. The only way to get to it is to talk about the company. My buddy, John, is a 352 miler. He was a US Olympic alternate in the mile. He was a great runner. He's featured in the book a little bit because I used part of his career as some of the examples. But he wanted to start this company called Gobi Moore, where it was inspirational clothing.

And I had all these ideas about self-improvement and all these concepts that I, you know, mental models and all these other psychology stuff that I wanted to do. And I had no plan for where or how to do it in some sense. And I started talking and we realized we had this great combination and we wanted to start the company. One of the things John does, and he's fantastic at it, is he's a public speaker. So he goes out and speaks to schools. He speaks to organizations. And we're like, we'll put a lot of our marketing around John speaking, right? Like going out and doing stuff and meeting people and we'll bring the clothes. We'll do all this stuff. We'll work it out.

And then we get this whole plan in place and then COVID hits and like, there's like everything gets canceled. And we kind of looked at each other and we were like, well, now what? It was one of these moments of like, we don't have a marketing plan anymore because COVID has basically stopped it. And we kind of just said, why don't we start a podcast? And I needed that little bit of a

something to push me to go over the edge to actually do the work and get it started. But I am loving doing podcasting. And I kind of knew I was going to love it for 10 years because I would listen to people going like, I wish I could do this, right? Like that's how I would feel. And I never got myself started because of some sort of, I would hold myself back insecurities about it. I don't know. It's, I don't know what to do. It's too much work, friction, blah, blah, blah. Now that I'm doing it, everything you said, it's

It's like, I'm connecting with people, people that I've admired from afar for a long time. Sometimes they've come on the show and I'm just like, I can't believe I get to speak with you. This is amazing. And other times it's just a side project that I learn new skills. Like I'm getting better at something. I see the improvement. It took a lot of episodes before I started to feel really comfortable with my voice, like with everything. Right. And all of a sudden I'm like,

oh, actually, I feel pretty good now. I feel like I can do this. Anyway, I bring this up because I'm always curious why you started yours and if you get the same benefits that I do out of doing it. Yeah. Thank you for asking me that. Yeah. A lot of the things that you said is it took me a little while to find my groove at probably almost six months in. Once I started interviewing people and publishing on a regular basis, then I realized that it really added a lot of creativity to my day because my day job is...

like sit and stare at spreadsheets all day and just stare at the computer where exactly what you said, this is a side project for me that has brought me a lot of, like I've stayed up

to like midnight working on podcast episodes. And I don't mind doing that because I like it so much. And so it's been really enjoyable project. And I told myself a goal of do 100 podcast episodes, because that way it keeps me from kind of giving up and just throwing in the towel. And it also was inspiring me to continue to ask for guests to be on the show so that I have continuous content. My very first episode was only two minutes long. And it took me an hour to record it because I didn't know how to edit. So

I just kept trying to say it. And then, you know, there's been bloopers along the way. Recently, I shared the wrong intro for a guest. Like I had a previous guest intro and with whatever the current guest was. And I was just like, well, all these newbie things that you learn along the way, I've still enjoyed it. And I've enjoyed the feedback and the platform. So.

Yeah. So I was going to, I'm going to try to do this. I feel like the concepts of make the leap, I basically say like, you're going to build, you got to do the best work you can do in the amount of time and energy you have to do it. Like just focus on doing high quality work,

to the best of your ability. Then as that normalizes and it becomes easier to do, you can do a little more, you can do a little bit something extra, you can add in, you can do those little things and keep making these positive changes and just make it be a gradual progress. It's a process of getting better and improving your quality. I feel the same thing about podcasting. And so here's the trust the process. I feel the same way. You go through and you're like, well, I don't feel like at this point I should have more listeners. I feel like at this point I should do...

But here's the thing. You do the best you can with the amount of time you have. It's a side project. The first episodes we have are not as edited as well as they are now. That kind of thing, right? Because you look at it and you say, well, this is the best I could do. And you just do it and you go on. I think...

that the this mentality of an approach of trusting the process and focusing on quality and trying to build a feedback loop into your into your work as much as possible these are all these little things where you know it's a book about running make the leap is a book about running but I literally approach my podcast with the same mindset as I try to approach running and the

podcast is something I'm really passionate about now. And now it's all about these little things. It's like, what's my hidden training program for improving the podcast? Like, and those are like, what do I really need to do to be successful? It's like, I don't know if I need to find better guests. I think I need to do a little bit better job of connecting about some marketing here. I need to do a little bit more better job of getting myself on other people's podcasts like yours. I need to, you know, all these other things where it's like, ah, okay. Like

I'm doing a good job with what I'm doing now. What's the next little step I can do? And so anyway, I bring it up because as I don't train the way like I propose you need to train in the book, I'm kind of past that in my life. It's not my core thing right now to try to be an elite runner, but I very much take that same mindset. And I try to say, oh, all these projects I'm working on, like,

this is how I'm going to think about it. Right. It's a great reminder for me to kind of hear your story too, to realize that I'm not kind of alone. And it's not just me, this little podcast and other people have like a million listeners. Like there's a spectrum of that too. And there's other people kind of similar to me that are still working on growing their audience, but that doesn't prevent me from exactly what you do. I'm doing the best I can with the time that I have.

Yeah. And I'll say to the other thing is, you know what? I think we would all love to have a million listeners like deep at heart. Like we'd all love to be acknowledged as like the must listen to podcast, but it's also important to have the right listeners, right? I really try to focus on this too. It's like quality over quantity. Like if the right people are listening, that's great. And sometimes the thing you're doing today,

isn't the thing you're meant maybe to be doing long-term, but it's developing skills that might help you get there, right? And these are the kinds of things where like, I look at my podcast as no matter how big it gets,

it doesn't really matter. Like, I don't know, like, that's not, that's not really why I'm doing it. I'm kind of doing it to get better at certain skills to develop. I call it my skills network. It's like the different amount of skills I have and how they connect with each other. And if this particular project blows up and becomes like the thing that that's great. And if it doesn't,

hopefully something I learned in the process of doing it will contribute to what does become that thing. Right. Yeah. I think that's a great point too, of just kind of life in general as having the confidence to take a leap into something that you feel a calling toward, and then that will lead you to something else, which will lead you to something else. And I think that, yeah, I would have never learned the skills on how to use an audio editing tool unless I started a podcast. And even that though, I, I,

I had to watch some YouTube videos on learning more about it. Right. And, but it's an opportunity for me to learn. And so it's really been a great experience for me. And I will say, this is the way I look at something like that. You may not go down the path of having a career as a podcast audio engineer, right? Like you're not, maybe you're not going to go down that path, but you're

the amount of work you do to gain a certain basic competency or fluency in this field, like you may never become a master at it, right? Like you're an expert, but if you can just gain some strong fluency in the, in the field, you don't know where that's going to help you in the future on some project you're working on when somebody needs to get something done and you can actually have a conversation in those terms that that person understands in order to help solve a problem or something like that. Like all these things come that,

you don't know where they're going to help you in the future, but they always seem to come back in some way. It's also trusting the process. It's like, well, trust, it's going to help me in some way. I can't predict where, but it will. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Like the universe has your back. The universe conspires to create opportunities for you, right? And it's up to you to recognize them when they come. And it's up to you to have the skills that you need to take advantage of them when the time comes. I believe that it's frustrating sometimes when the universe is not conspiring fast enough to make things work. I think

It's a more healthy approach to life to say, you know what, I'm going to keep building skills and I'm going to keep setting myself up to be ready for opportunities and keep my eyes open for them and not get caught up in what I'm doing now is the only possible thing I can do. Right. Yeah. I love how we've segued from like talking about your book to like this motivational life, like just trust your life and try new things and take a leap. And if you want to start a podcast, start a podcast and don't worry about it. Well, to be honest,

I love the book. I want to promote the book. I hope everybody who listens to this, you know, checks it out and buys it. But at the end of the day, it's one other thing, right? And there's bigger things in our lives than, you know, individual projects. And thinking about your podcast, I listened to a bunch of them. I really liked the one with the sports psychologist, Megan Cannon. I really liked that one. And there's a couple of concepts that she had in there that I've been playing around with my mind with as well, like that I've taken from it. And you asked the question, you know, to her, like, what does chasing life mean to you? And I heard that question to her and I thought, oh my God,

what does that mean to me? Cause that was going to be one of my closing questions. So what you said just a second ago, I, and the reason it caught me is like, I sat down and I said to myself, you know, like I do have an opinion on this. Like, what is my thought on this? And then what you said, I was like, Oh my God, she just kind of said my answer. Like, so I was like, Oh, this is weird. Yeah. I find it interesting because you're

motto of Go Be More is similar to kind of what I believe about chasing life. So I'd love to hear what does chasing life mean to you? Yes, perfect. So I think we all have a sense of who we want to be. We might not know, but we

We have a feeling, we have certain things that we're obviously attracted to, things we're certain not attracted to, those kinds of things. And we have this idea about how we want people to think of us and how we want to be remembered and all that kind of stuff. And I call it a sense because for some people it's really strong and for other people it's a little bit weaker, right? But we all have it. And then there's another thing I think is that we all have our priorities.

And our priorities could be anything from, it could be your faith, it could be your family, it could be your health, it could be your craft. If you're an artist or something, maybe that's your thing. For me, chasing life means pursuing that sense of who you are

should be, but adhering to your priorities while you do it. What that means is that there's a lot of times you have to say no to stuff because it's not the right thing, because it doesn't align with who you want to be. And it doesn't align with priorities for how you want to live. And on the flip side of that, that also creates these opportunities when you have to make really difficult, tough decisions to say yes to something.

that is like jumping off the edge of the cliff and trusting that you're that you're going to survive the fall right and so to me chasing life is trying to be intentional around those two areas i'm struggling i struggle with it actually i really this is actually some an area that my being involved in go be more and working with my partner john who is he's an amazing inspirational person has forced me to confront some of these things in a way that i sort of

just sort of skated by without really doing right. And to put it in some sort of context, you know, I was working for a big company and I had a great job and I had a good salary. I wanted to live in Italy and we want, my wife wanted to live in Italy. We wanted to do it. Our kids were young. We wanted to have this experience. And I couldn't.

I couldn't stay at my job and go move to Italy. And I got to a point where which one do I want to do? This isn't, there's no, I don't even think there's like a right or wrong decision. I chose to go move to Italy because priority wise, I said, you know what? Like my priorities are life experiences and, and not money or not security in that sense. And that's created its own challenges down the way, right? Because you're giving up on certain things, but I kind of just really feel it's really important for people to make those types of decisions. Reaffirm your priorities, your,

via big, hard decisions. And I think it's when you're making those decisions is when you really are chasing life and not just living life. Yeah, I love that. I have loved asking that question to all of my guests because-

It's so interesting to get everyone's perspective, but I feel like they all kind of surround the similar values that I have of just not being afraid to chase a goal or whatever that goal might be. And, and that living intentionally of instead of just kind of skating by in life, but

pursuing something in life. You know, when you're growing and you're pursuing something, I feel like that's where your life has more meaning. And the fact that you moved to Italy, that's going to add more to your life than if you would have stayed in that job. And so just, yeah, that priority assessment and realizing like, well, this is my priority and what I want in my life. And so, yeah, not being afraid to go after it.

Yeah, I think it's really important. And every time you do it, it makes it easier the next time. And so just like anything else, living by your priorities is kind of a habit, right? Like it's kind of something you have to do every day or else it's not really, you're not really doing it. Right. And it doesn't mean it's easy because there's a lot of conflicts that you have to resolve with sometimes with this stuff. And you got to say no to certain things and you got to, I don't know, you put yourself in positions where it's hard to figure out what the right path is because it's not always clear. But

I feel like you're always better off if you're doing it intentionally than if you're just letting it all happen. And I feel a little bit good about being able to say that because for many years, I actively approached life with a, I'm just going to stumble along and pursue whatever opportunities come. I'm not going to have a plan. I'm just going to be open to everything. And I'm going to, you know, developing skills and being in positions to take on new opportunities and stuff.

but I think it was a little bit kind of immature too. And I think I, I had, I started to get more out of my own life and feel better about my life. When I transitioned, I kept some of the philosophies about developing skills and I, and I applied a little bit more of the philosophy of being intentional about them. Right. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And,

And that reminder for people too, of having the courage to chase those priorities and be okay with saying no to something, even if friends or family are saying, well, no, you should do this. And you're like, no, that doesn't really align with my priorities. And that makes it hard to make that decision because you maybe don't feel supported, but in your heart, you're like, I feel like this is the right thing for me. In a macro level, like it's going to inconvenience someone if you're chasing your life, right? So you've got to accept that at some point, right? And the second part of it is a lot of...

what saying no means is,

giving up on something you enjoy, right? Because it's not just saying no to something that you didn't want to do in the first place. Like I give a lot of credit to my not going out with friends for why I improved as a runner in college. I stopped. I just said, you know what? I'm just not doing it anymore. I enjoyed doing that. Like it was a fun thing to do. And I missed some pretty crazy opportunities. And I heard some stories that I was like, God, that would have been fun to do, right? But on the other side, I didn't lose that much. What I gained in feeling like,

I was being intentional and being priority driven and being the person that I aspired to be far outweighed what I felt like I was giving up. It doesn't change the fact that what I was giving up was something I actually enjoyed doing. Thank you for sharing that. It's not always easy to say no to things. So can you tell us a little bit more? You have the Go Be More podcast and then...

and Fueling the Pursuit. Can you tell us about each of those and maybe some memorable guests that you've had on them? So Fueling the Pursuit is a new project. We're actually working with UCAN, which is an energy supplement company, right? They have a product called Super Starch. It's amazing. And a lot of pro endurance athletes use it to maintain their nutrition and their fuel when they're training and competing. And I recommend it to anybody. It's a fantastic product. So they partnered with us. That podcast

We're interviewing many of their ambassadors, elite athletes, about the mindset of being an elite athlete, how they approach the sport.

And we've interviewed, you know, Mebka Flesky, Sarah Hall. I've interviewed some triathletes, Scott Panchik, a CrossFit star. Coming up, we have Maggie Steffens, who's a water polo player. And all the conversations are really different. I really, it's really fun because they're very different conversations because of their personalities. And that's, you know, it comes out once a week and it's been a joy to do in that regard. I would say that the episode, it's going to come out in a couple of weeks where the triathlete has probably been the most memorable, but I can't really point you to it yet because it hasn't come out yet.

Our podcast, we started back in April last year. It's about one year now. And we do a mix of what we call conversational episodes, where it's just John and me talking about a topic. Usually it's kind of like

me, the professor talking about some concept that is often related to the concepts of Make the Leap, but not always. And we have a conversation. We also bring on a lot of guests and, you know, John was an Olympic athlete. We've been very fortunate. We have contacts with tons of professional runners and people in the sport. And so we've had a great opportunity to meet a bunch of people who are very inspiring in their own lives.

But we've also had people who are performers or I don't know, we had a guy who builds robots in his garage who's really remarkable magician. You know, we've had some other people come on because they just have their own stories and they're, and they've been really interesting. Most memorable guests. I don't know. This is a hard one because I'm at like, like 70 guests now or something like that that we've done.

Probably the one that meant the most to me was interviewing my old coach. And part of that was, his name is Bob Larson. He's a legend in the sport. He was Meb Keflezighi's coach for 20 years. But the reason I had so much fun with it is that he has been at the forefront of a lot of the major trends in distance running.

in terms of threshold training he was kind of one of the first people to be doing it altitude training he was one of the first people to be doing it creating training groups for elite athletes he was one of the first people to be doing it like he's he's kind of been at the forefront of all this throughout a year of like 40 50 years and we got to really dive into

to that and like stories of the Olympics and stories of college track and field in the 80s and all sorts of stuff. So those are fun. Another episode, there's a guy named Tony Reed, who's always stood out to me. Tony Reed is the president of the National Black Marathoners Association. I think he's in his 70s. It was such a wide ranging discussion. He's run marathons on all seven continents, Africa, Australia, everywhere. And he's been a lifelong runner, but in a way that's different from like an elite athlete, like where he's just pursued it as a passion. We talked to him about

you know, segregation and growing up in St. Louis in the sixties and everything from that to his philosophies on work life balance and having these like hobbies you're pursuing as a passion outside of work and how that actually makes you better at your job, which he made these connections that have, they've literally stuck with me as part of the reason I'm bringing his up is that it's, you know, sometimes you have a conversation where somebody says something that, and, and it literally just sort of like fixes in your brain and it changes how you

think about stuff a little bit. And so that was one of those ones that, that stands out to me. He's an amazing guy. And I think it would be a cool episode for people to check out if that's, if they want to see like, you know, what we're doing on our podcast. Yeah. I'll definitely link those both. Thank you for the recommendations. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for giving me the platform to share some of them. Yeah, absolutely. It's, I mean, we've been talking for over an hour and

I know, I know. I really enjoyed our conversation. If you want to just wrap it up and tell people how they can find you, connect with you, check out your podcast, where they can find your book, all that stuff. Well, I would say on most of the social platforms,

I don't post a lot personally, like as an individual. I have an account for my book. It's at Make the Leap Book and on Instagram or Facebook, other platforms, you can find it there. The podcast at Go Be More Podcast, I think on most platforms, you can find very simply by searching for that.

Our website is gobimore.co. We sell clothes, right? And the reality is I want to promote our company, of course, Gobi More. And one of the things that I believe very strongly in is your environment has a much stronger effect on people.

your behavior than we tend to accept, that we want to believe, right? And that could be everything from the food you have in your fridge is the food you're likely to eat. And it could be the people you hang out with are going to influence your behavior. But a lot of it also is the triggers that we create in our lives dictate what we think about and what we act on, right? And one of the things I...

really believe is that clothing can boost your commitment like if you have clothes you like to wear especially if those clothes are associated with a certain behavior a certain activity you're going to wear them like i look at it this way you might want to do yoga if you enjoy doing yoga and you have clothes you like wearing when you do yoga it's a lot it's going to change how you feel about doing it right i feel the same way about our goals and our dreams and what it is that we want to pursue in our life we often have them but there's nothing that represents them right like

They just, maybe they're written down in a notebook somewhere, or maybe they're on your bathroom mirror, or maybe there's something there. But I think it's important to have like physical representations of things. And just like, it's more meaningful to put a wedding ring on your finger when you get married than it is to just say we're married, right? Like there's a, that wedding ring, it's a symbol, right? It means something. And so what I would like is for our clothes to be that for people who are pursuing whatever their goals are, whatever their go be more goal is.

I think everybody has one. And the way I view our clothes is that's what I want it to be. I want it to be the thing that for you represents what you're pursuing in your life, whether you're wearing it or whether you're just seeing it in your drawer, every time you see it, I want it to be a reminder. Like that's what I aspire for our company to become. So go be more.co and you can learn more about the podcast, everything there too. Well, thank you for that. And I love the idea behind your clothing too. I think there's a lot of power in the symbolism of,

Or, and it also kind of puts you in that correct mindset of when you put on your running clothes, you're going to go and run, right? Or there's a mentality of if you have an outfit that you like to wear, you feel more confident too. I think this is really important. People, we accept it, but we don't apply it everywhere, right? Like people wear power suits, like power suits are a thing. Like people buy a suit that they want to wear when they go into a really big, important business meeting. Not because the suit is the thing that's going to

make the meeting successful it's contributing to the confidence they need to make the meeting successful right right and if you have a favorite running outfit i i don't know about you i wear the same thing when i go for long runs i make sure that they're clean and ready to go when i'm going to do a long run because that's my favorite outfit that's what i want to wear if i'm going to go out for a long run something like that i just think we do this naturally and a lot of things there's superstitious people do it for various reasons there's lots of different areas

John and I talk about this all the time. Like people don't do this with their goals and dreams. They don't make it physical and concrete. I think clothing is one of many ways to do that. And so I think it's hopefully a comfortable way to do that. We can make comfortable clothing that also gives this other quality. And I checked out your site too. There's a lot of options. And we're trying to come out with more. You know, we're a little bit slower than I want to be sometimes, but that's part of learning how to do this business and learning how to grow and do the best you can in the time as you can. That's it.

As all these conversations come full circle here. Right, right. Yeah, I think that's a great way to wrap up what we're saying too. So thank you again so much for your time. And I'm glad that we've connected and that I found your book. Continue to follow all that you're doing through your podcasts and through your social media. Thank you as well. I appreciate this opportunity. It's really...

It's a fun conversation. I love these ideas. I love these topics. This is the kind of stuff I like talking about when we're on our podcast and stuff. So if people are interested, they can find me there. And I look forward to watching what you're doing too. I think you're doing great stuff. And I think you've got the right approach. How long is it going to take to hit the goals you have? I don't know. But that's just the process, right? Yeah. Thank you for that. All right. Thank you, Sarah.

I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Brian as much as I did. For more information about his apparel company, check out gobemore.co. For more information about his book, maketheleapbook.com. Use code CHASINGLIFE for 20% off your purchases.

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it on social media. Tag me at Sarah Chasing Life or at Chasing Life Podcast. If you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe and rate this podcast. That helps me to reach more listeners.