The Department of Justice V Google Ads: Part 1
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Causer .

media, hello one, welcome to Better off line. I'm your st.

And today they enjoyed by Jason kent, the C O, the trade association, D. C. And Jason, thank you for joining me.

Please to be here.

Thanks for me. So Jason is joining us today, and we'll be joining us more regularly to talk through the massive anti trust trial going on with google. The second of them, jon, what are you set the scene of what's going on?

Yeah sure. Thanks that yeah we just wrapped up getting the opinion on the first trial, which was the search trial um where judge ma decided uh and issued the opinion that google has a monopoly and search in a monopoly and search ex add text ads so this is trial number two is going to be starting on monday, the night in the easter district of Virginia and this one is focused on the ad tech part of google business and everything relate to so .

how does that how is that different? Because a lot of people see them kind of one mogens cent tty.

sure. yeah. I mean the advertising for people understand the advertising business for digital um has now become almost entirely a live kind of auction marketplace where if you think of all these add units across the web, they are being bought and sold in near real time to the highest bitter.

And google as a company has both the software and a lot of the data that powers the decision making. And so if you think about kind of on the bay side, a bunch of companies beating on advertising units that they want to um to get in front consumers. And on the other end, you've got the owners of those. It's whether be publishers or google itself. Um google is the largest play on both sides of those transactions, and they also run most of the actions too.

So what is happening in this trial?

So the department justice started investing in google back in twenty eighteen and they spent a few years doing IT the state attorney general LED by taxi pilot, a lawsuit back at the end of twenty twenty saying that google atteck business violated our trust laws and um since then the department justice filed its own lawsuit back in january of twenty twenty three so just eighteen months ago and they did in Virginia, where have known as the the nickname is the rocket docket because IT moves so fast. And so in less than eighty months, this one's gone to it's gone to the point where now about have a trial starting on monday and um will present the arguments to take about four four weeks and uh the look the judge there, the district judge will determine and is your opinion on whether or not uh the various uh charges that are in the complaint um he agrees with them and and whether not they'll be remedies .

for and what of the judges roughly .

speaking the judge judge branca, what are the charges yes. That google has a monopoly and at only three different areas of the advertising supply chain. And so that the software that publishers use, that's the software that runs the auction um and that's the software on the the byline um that's being used to bid on the on the ads um and and in those areas that they were also abuse that monopoly power.

how have they been abused again?

Let's get into IT, get into IT.

Where are you know let's .

see how the abuse I think I mean I think one thing is helpful. And and you know um for maybe unfortunately for google, their own employees and some of the discovery for the lawsuit did a comparison. The stock market when you think about this kind of live marketplace, maybe that saw flash boys and or read the book on high speed trading, this is is that plus maybe more intense and and say a little bit .

about what that means for those who might know.

sure. That means that if you think about these advertising units that sit there across the web, that there is incredibly high speed trading of those units are happening in, in, in small seconds, me. And that you know, in a bulk of of the eye, there are parties that are both biding on and and delivering on ad units based on a whole range of of targeting requirements and pricing.

Um and then there's rules around those options. And so if you think about kind of the way as stock market works, which is also what happens and in real time, people are buying and selling stock using machine entirely using machines that have been uh programmed to handle the beating. And in the marketplace, google is doing that for the entire supply chain, both the bike side on the sell side. And so um you the comparison that the google employee made in and also the assistance attorney general did when they announced the lawsuit was to the stock market as if google, you know, was both buying was leading an on the majority of the software with for buying and proceed and for running the actual actions themselves. And so what's happened so far.

you've been so you're quite close. You're about twenty minutes in the courthouse.

Maybe twin is like what else there's been a number of free they call pretrial emotions for a variety of things to kind of figure out the rules of the road for the trial when IT starts to mountain somebody. That's just logistics, something that's really important in terms of like what evidence will be allowed and not allowed, who will testify and not testify? And so what have .

you actually witness so far like what you've been in a few of these pretty al motions even yeah really well.

I had one thing. I start with the the the judge um because this is actually a little bit in the way here but this uh lawsuit originally started out IT was gone to go before a jury of americans to make the decisions. So you think about the just part of how to explain this topic to the average american um that that changed a few months ago based on an illegal manoeuvre that google did.

And so now the judge is gonna actually the one that will issue the verdict to make the decision. And you know my observation as he is incredible experience she's spent a judge for quite some time and SHE has had some no very, very significant cases over her career um loving from alcade terrorists down to to nine eleven related uh cases. So she's not intimidated all by anybody in the room, including google for sure.

Um and so in regard um you very open the mistake um he seems to only care about the law justice which is what you want to see from a judge. Um google like with the search trial, has the best and the brightest attorneys that are out there. Um no three or four firms working for them and theyve got half the room full of of their people.

Um this is really, really important. Them the just department wants to break up outcome. They want if they want to break up google. And so that's what the trials all about.

How do you think how do you see their chances?

Um I you know if you asked me and i'm sure I was on the record about this back a year ago, I would have said that the chances for this one were higher than the search the search lawsuit then they just won and so um also felt pretty optimistic about the search lawsuit once they finish closing arguments because I thought that a really good job explain their case.

This one I think is even more obvious going in I mean to put the real numbers around IT. I mean, they they the just departments analysis and the experts analysis is that google has over ninety percent of the software that publishers used to serve the ads. And then they ve got over.

They got ninety eight percent of the mobile queries. We learn that from the last decision and the so on the bright side, they've got you know almost you know ninety eight percent of the the advertising demand that's coming through from search ads. So like on both sides of the market, they've and then they generate the rules. So um it's a problem.

And as far as the original allegations go, can you kind of break those down at all and explain what the what the specific things that you would consider the most important parts of the trial are?

Yeah sure. Um you know that one that they took them the market power that they had on the advertising demand side um and that they use that in order to create market power dominance, if you will, in other parts of supply chain. And so one that things really important is that we now have a decision from the other court on that dominant on the demand side.

And so judge metal ari did the work of saying, no, he believes that google, they prove the case, just approve the case, that google has a monopoly in search and in search text dads, and they have used that. And so that decision is no longer just allegations as a relates to to google. And this case claims that they use that market power to to create dominance elsewhere.

And so they walk in and I think in a much Better place based on the prior opinion that came out in August. Um you know second thing i'll head on is that they tied you know that to other parts of business of the exchange in the and the answer business in order to um is so basically to force people to use the other products. So as an example, you know the argument of the allegation is that you weren't able to get access to any of that demand unless you use google's aex product.

Um and so you know the evidence looks pretty clear on that, but they're have to present that case. Um and I think a thora I hit on is that that the market itself is properly defined. That's always important for rain, I trust trials um in cases. And so this case is all about something called open web display advertising. And google will try to to blur that line is .

B I guess this year to explain .

that was not and that's OK. That's what bothers google is you it's not close platform. So not advertising on tiktok or not advertising on facebook. It's advertising that's available over the web browser in which companies can participate in auctions on the bright side or they can participate options on the cell side. And you know and these are options, they're happening for display advertising units on websites.

Perhaps it's it's a good time to actually take a step back and ask how does google make money from advertising? What are their advertising units? Because you mention there's the bidding process, but where do we see google advertising?

Well, they know a majority of advertising and it's become more and more over each year is actually on google's own properties. So interesting of that where they make the most money because they don't have to share with anybody else, right? And so so you've got the ads on search, you've got the ads on gmail, you've got the ads on youtube.

Um so it's on what they call their own and Operated properties. And then also, google serves ads across the rest of the web, and that's where they get a lot of scale on a lot of data. And then they take a percentage of the action on the by side percent of the action, sell side percent of the action, the action, and that all adds up so that they're taking allegedly thirty to thirty two percent of the revenue or just the technology that's being used in order .

to the survey. S does the suit suggest does that give any idea of what the baLance so that you said that most of their advertising goes through there are in properties? Does IT baLanced that how to .

told does IT explain? Yeah I think it's it's in there and certainly in the c violence.

Um you know I think you know this gets to kind of one of the arguments I think you will hear google make and that certainly their their proxies and kind of their advocates are making is that the part of the revenue that serves on other people's properties on sites is only about fifteen you know like fifteen percent or so of the revenue in its declining the last couple years. So it's not growing. It's flat to declining. It's not that material.

That's of property revenue.

That's revenue that's .

very bad for them.

but the common sense piece.

Well, yeah, but that's where they also have the lower margin because they don't they have to share with people um the common sense peace. Is that what? why? And if that wasn't that important to them, then theyd be offloading IT, right? Because why would you want to go? You sued by the thing I said, justice department and potentially broken up um if if is not the important to you um and then to that ignores that's just the revenue piece.

But I think it's important understand that, that like and this will come out. I became along of the documents that the data that they get from those options and from serving ads across the web and from tracking users across the web. I mean, there is an important moment in time that will come up in the trial.

I believe we're in twenty sixteen, google merged all of the ad tech data they have with all the search data they have with all the location data they have with all the android data and all the chrome browser data into one single profile, which they promise they would do. And they went hadn't did IT. And if you think about the value of that data underpants, that's really important.

So when you say unites those profiles is, is that that they have a profile on you on me, is that what do we just not know?

I mean, we expect that the whether it's a tononi mous indicator, a place holder for that user, but they know enough, that is this device which is attached to a person. And I know all the other information .

about person may resemble that because I see that in two thousand sixteen dropped back on P I. I in personally information. But is this separate to that? Is that the combination of everything else?

I mean, that's what the reporting was in two thousand and and sixteen and that's what the the evidence that starting to bubble up was was the project not is what we just learned but IT um but that they merged they dropped their ban on P I I being merged with search july engine from public public I think did the report and and so that that was removing the guard's basically at least in my mind and I think they'll be part of the the event.

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So within this, is there anything particularly surprising within the first few? What actually let me take that back, i'm sure the surprising stuff. But what happens now? So we are pushing this episode de out on september ninth, the day of the first trial. So what happens then and what happens after that?

yeah. So the first couple of weeks, the just department will present what they call their case. And chief, is there? No, it's their evidence. So they are going to have a slew of witnesses that have already been identified, both google employees, x google employees and ceos and in top, found of a lot competitive at tech companies, experts and said that probably have already have been deposed and will will now answer questions on the witness stand.

And you'll have a tonic exhibits that we've probably seen less than five percent of them might save at this point to prove their case and and google have a chance to ask questions to thorough and then no present their defense. Um I expect we'll take about four weeks told um I think important things for people to know going into the trial you I recovered that I think the judges is perfect for a case like this. So that's um very optimistic at this point. Also, I would say it's very important to know that there was an important, important hearing last week in which uh it's it's happened with multiple lawsuits against google where google guy in trouble for not reserve ing documents .

I was good say.

yeah yeah and so google at a point of number of years ago, issued a memo from their cheap lior and change their system so that any chat messages would buy, default, delete after twenty four hours is the way it's been alleged and unless the the employee actually proactively turned on their history and in turned off that program because they run allegation hold, then the evidence was lost and and so the judge um the judge very much um expressed her concern about this had happened and that probably a lot of evidence have been deleted and that throughout the trial she's gna have to take that in the account, whatever google send somebody up to understand that she's going to have to have own inferences on whether or not this is reliable testimony and whether not there's information exhibits that were not available to hurt because of this policy.

That's like really bad for you go going to do a trial. I already have one that well, I think that ultimately you could decide doing for that what they call adverse inference. You could easily decide that um that there has been evidence that's been merged in her mind and therefore um therefore google was trying to hide stuff that would have been criminating to them or prove the case .

of the doesn't quatia like appeal if he does that a lot or would that be very carefully used? They would .

probably carefully used I think you know interest and up judge meta had the same uh concern and decision uh you know coming out of the search opinion but he said that he didn't need IT you know he didn't actually need to rely on IT um that he was gonna find against google that he was an an apple an abusive power without IT so so he didn't need to have that intent SHE says the intense, really important occasions so we will see how how heavily SHE ways on IT of the day.

so on on the north, they are going. The department of justice will make their first will make begin making their case.

They will. They will you so .

has anything interesting come out yet as far as initial motion? And have we seen any of uh any of the exhibits provided in advance? sure.

Yeah, we've seen even dial the original complaint. We we've seen through reporting, we've seen some of the um the evidence and details on a lot of projects that google had. This ones a lot there's a lot of code name projects which will make IT hard to to keep up to but keep up with both. There's things like a pro and bernanke and all these like fancy names bell on each other, a little clever story behind them, ji ji blue. And behind those fancy code names are typically experiments they would call IT. We're google is testing making changes to its options um in order to drive some sort of outcome whether be more revenue proposal, be more market power or you know more business for google um you know driving more revenues, publishers or the advertisers like it's them playing with the options um and so we've seen some of the details of those. Uh, I think we're going to see now as some of the intent behind them and some of the communications internally about them.

i'd be interested. So did I blew that was the collusion with facebook, right?

That was the alleged collusion with facebook is very much still around.

I thought that, I thought that that got kind of dismissed in europe.

yeah. So google has made that communication arguments through some other proxies. IT actually was dismissed in the um the state s had their own case I mentioned was filed the end of twenty twenty in the eastern district of texas, which was then moved to new york, southern york and while I was there that um was dismissed from the case. I won't go into wire when that that was accurate um but I would that specific charge which um that cat potential criminal um uh criminal implications for them um was dismissed that the complaint then and the loss that then moved back to texas for a different reason and that discovery was reopened up about four months ago. I say on facebook and IT also LED to a deposition of of soon arcade the city of google because he has unique about um may also lid .

and what was the deal .

the deal has alleged was that google ji project jet I was as we understand IT was google's attempt to match or have their version of what's called header beating, which was this this coating layer at the top of a web page that opened up auction so that other parties could compete and participate in auction live auctions and IT was a threat to google business because that meant that uh publisher could could participate, put on their header of their web page this code which would allow them to open up the options to outside parties.

So didn't have to go through google. Um ji blue um so you think about that is a threat to google geni blue was a way to keep to do a deal with facebook as alleged so that facebook would not support headband, that facebook would instead not participate header beating, which would be bad for heater beating, and would instead you exchange value with google and that value has understood IT from the complaints was and the reporting was that facebook would get additional a matching of users in the auction that google ran and they would get speed preferences in the auction. So you think about the timing of bids .

but auction within google.

ad product within google.

So that is an obvious that's an obvious use of monopoly power that one feels. How was that be? I'm shocked that that hasn't .

caused more problems for them. Well, where I got to Smith IT was IT was nearly read by the judge as Normal. These are two copies that are competing with each other still at the end of the day and and they were both game of value exchange that that made sense for them and facebook was acting the best interest of of its business.

Um I don't IT was a questionable ruling, but what's important understand is that still IT is part of the conduct for the just department case starting next week. It's a part of the conduct for the da g case and sudarat now been opposed about IT in the last two months and the journey is all fluid. Liking them to depose facebook's project manager or on IT, who also breathed mark za berger, head of his men with arbeiter. And so no, it's very much in the in the documents when you dig in, there's stuff moving very quickly that facebook was trying to fight, was trying to fight and that project .

manage from facebook wait for as disgust listeners. Jones going to be back quite a few times in the next three weeks to discuss the stuff. I'm quite excited by this. And so what some other any other like notable projects on their notable like paro and such the invention .

yeah you know there's there's um there's a project in which a the the I know how much again to like the way options work, but IT actually okay. So allow these options and certainly google options further search ads from the very beginning of been second Price auction. So so the company that the bitter that bits the highest doesn't actually pay their bid.

They pay the the second highest bid plus of penny, right really how IT happens, right? So um there's all sorts of rational behind that. Um and so there's a project in which the actual Price that was paid was basically the third um the third highest and the dollar amounts they paid the second higher, i'm sorry.

Then they delivered the the the third highest and so they kept the the margin in between and then reinvested IT back into boosting other options. Basically bit IT was beran. I think that was the plane berni. And then there was another flavor of that. But IT basically was like, no rerouting some of the margin between the second, their highest back into the system to increase other bits that makes sense.

So I but sorry if I misunderstand how did that benefit google part my .

where is is um IT allowed them. The allegations are that by then rewriting that money back in and boosting other bids, IT allowed google system to win more options um so was the same money flowing but IT allowed them to win more auctions.

which help them take market here. That's it's crazy it's crazy that IT seems not just IT seems like a an out right con in so many places.

I mean, you know google will try to argue for each of these some sort of benefit to the advertisers or to the publishers on one side of the other. But I think ultimately, we will see and I think would be most damaged in google or this. There's likely to be evidence that will show both of those considerations going in to some math to say how does this help google, you know and so you know you if you're able to see both sides of the transaction, you have a clear conflict of interest and you're able to to manipulate the both sides, the business rather than acting the best interests of both sides, the business individually in a way to be APP yourself.

So do we know yet who's gonna to post or .

across examined? Yeah we have we have a witness is for sure yes.

who you looking forward to?

Um you know there's a couple x googlers that um actually tried to get their testimonies uh clashed but uh that didn't happen today. Um I mean that so uh last week I guess now so. But there is a few x employees that know a lot about the advice of around long time.

I think I like sola, others a guiding Chris, a scot Spencer, um they just know a lot. And um you know neal mohan, who ran the delic business that was then brought by a google and around the add d business for a long time. Um I think we'll be super interesting. I think the facebook witness that I mentioned um just together the answer whether jet blue was a problem or not once and pro think be interesting um so there's a long as there's no there's key players from the ad tech business that have competed and go over the years or tried to the guy that ran p nexus, the the guy that runs index exchange. Um these are like, you know people that are very, very knowledges in the entire history of the attic business that will be on the stand.

So there's a dumb question, how big a deal is this hot as far as history of the tech industry goes, how big is this?

Well, I mean, the google and I trust themselves actually use the the description of the assistant to general counter he he described IT as on the the mount rushmore of ana trust cases um I think with standard oil A T N T and microsoft google um you know this is their advertising business and you know the actual artie revenue businesses two hundred and fifty billion dollars Scott of a trillion dollars though argue this is just the right take part of the business so they will say it's thirty or forty billion um no as I mentioned, like the data fuels and I think this enables the rest of their business in anyway so um this is a really big deal and this is you know this is what funds journalism, entertainment across the the internet.

Could that not in turn? I'm not i'm not I think google should get broken up. But is there a world where this is Better for journalism .

if they get broken up? I think absolutely. Yeah, I think there's short term concerns in any break up outcome because it's gonna a headache and you know the benefits are going to take some time to to start to play out. But yeah, just if we just use the comment sense, you think about the stock market or any sort of marketplace having a company that's on the bright side and the cell side and developing the rules, ultimately, they are going to take more, more money out of the supply, right? And so um to a world in which the company on the buyside or the company the self I have to act in the best interest of the advertiser or would be the small, small moment pop store by advertising or the publisher on the other end being the local newspaper or national player whatever you know, having to act in their best interest um is a really, really important and common sense sort of marketplace rule where do you actually have competition Better serving the best interests of the parties?

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Do you think that this could kill google? Because I have this ongoing theory about this company that they can't survive with, that they may not place I just I done anything in the sense that they make more than half of their revenue from from search, which they have a monopoly on, click to ads, which they have a monopoly on, where they hold all the data and completely rig the dice for themselves. I don't see how google survives this in its current form. I don't even mean just breaking the mmp I just been if they are no longer allowed to rig dice, quite how theyve been rigged.

M yeah um took one minute you know in a break up scenario, then I think your answers right that they don't survive IT. And you and maybe it's best for shareholders anyway. If you if you study you know eight and t and others and want to royal tetra, you know IT could release more value anyway. If there's a youtube separated or any the attack business is separated, um how rely are they? I mean, that takes me back a little bit and to the search trial. And my my biggest observation out of the search trial, and I been a long time studying and being in the courtroom that I think hasn't mentally appreciated yet, is that how important google scale in terms of search queries is? And so they have ninety eight percent of the mobile search queries, eighty percent and that a ba search market of .

the queried themselves .

being asked in the search prompts on mobile.

And and just to be clear, you mean across every single search engine.

across general search engine.

is the way that is completely insane.

And so and you think about the scale of that and importantly for what they call tail query. So a tail query for the listeners that they're not aware is a query that's never been asked before, right?

And that makes up like what some amount like this support the large amount of fifteen percent is what know?

What we learned in a the U. K. Investigation of google is a fifteen percent. The queries any given day are till queries. And you know, those are things i've never been asked before in a search prompt.

And so judge meta used several times during the the trial and the fall used the example of Taylor swift and travel's cell thy like that there was a moment in time where nobody had ever put those two names together in a prop before right, and how quick IT was after the he start gaining. But but IT was a new query. Unless you actually had some context for IT, you didn't know what that meant. And so if you take that to the fifteen percent of the billions of queries, there happened, you know, given a week on google, there are ability to understand those queries and because of their scale and to decide what to do with them in terms of driving clicks where they go to satisfy the users and of target advertising is extraordinary relative to anyone else, including nineteen times on mobile, nineteen times more than the rest of the market combined. Um and the rest of market includes microsoft, right, a three trillion dollar company ies.

So so I just step this massive data advantage that no one else could possibly have, right?

And it's in particularly valuable in terms of recency of data inquiries like the new stuff .

that being yeah, so you can anticipate what ads people might be right .

or just where they want to go on the internet when that search happens.

And but how can they use that, that help themselves?

Well, one IT and locks them in because there's nothing more frustrating than searching for something this a new fresh search you it's typically ancient. It's typically related the news right IT means that are happy in society and the given day um that probably journalists are actually the one's doing all the work and Carrying the cost and bird enough.

And then you know if the search engine doesn't know the answer or to give you back results that aren't good, you get frustrated. So right, you end up back on google because they're Better at IT um and they just lock that in. So know that ninety eight percent, if you take that apply into the future, and particularly A I world where ever we talks about the AI world, how valuable capital is, right? So and how valuable computers, amazon that a these companies have enormous compute, microsoft, google um enormous capital.

But what they don't have is what google has, which is that, that query scale. And so google's ability, when he wants to, to entrench itself even further is pretty significant terms of training large language models and and you are being able to respond appropriate to approve in the eye world. Um and so they could ultimately, I think based on what I ve seen, they could squash even microsoft t an open eye when they want to, right? And so so do you think that they do?

Do you think that this could have wide or ramifications than just google?

I I think I could yeah I mean, I think if you're watching this in your microsoft or your apple, for sure, you're thinking really hard about how this could unlock opportunity for you. So I I think this is a big one.

So what are you excited about? What what is the part of the trial as we go into this? What are you really looking forward to as a sports fan.

as a sport that, you know, I think the the the great chAllenge, and I think the justice partment did a phenomenal job this and the search trial is is being able to tell the story and explain IT to the judge in the room right into the public, explain their case. And I think if they did that in the complaint very, very well.

Um I think people should know as much as as much as there's a reputation that goes back a long time that that people in D C, whether be lawmakers or regulators don't really understand technology. I would just really strongly suggest that they are wrong on this one. And the eternities that are involved and they were involved in the search trial and now involved in this ad tech trial, they really have done their homework.

Um these are you know these are really, really strong uh yeah strong um in complete technical books that can dive in and understand how things work and theyve spye done their homework over the years. Um the questions that they were asking back in twenty eighteen, we are already pretty impressive. Mean, they are the questions that at the top of tech company, people wouldn't be asking, you know people in in the install would be asking.

And then they've been you know studying that for for now almost five in five years before they file their lawsuit. And so i'm really expected how they present their case until the story for sure. Um you know one thing that also will be in as the chill I I guess I describe as the chill over the room. Um you I I I don't think it's a secret that I was involved or or you had means with the just department over the years on this on this case.

And one of them, I told them very early on, was that probably the greatest symptom would just be the lack of people willing to talk to them, right? That everybody does business with google and and google probably the most important business partner for most companies in terms of their news and information being found, in terms of advertising being delivered. A um so you're going to have a law witnesses that under superiors and and are there because they were ordered by the court to be there and they have to testify the facts um and that will be entering to see. I don't think we'll be talking much in the press about about these issues.

And do you think you've kind of hinted that the press hasn't been cover had been covering IT, just to be clear. But why do you think that this is this feels like IT should be the only story everywhere, but it's quite, quite out there again. People are still covering IT.

Yeah I mean, I think the the chill piece plays into that too. And and so you know both um I don't say they're fearful of coverage, but least some of the trade press google is important advertiser for their events further further publications the dc press googles and probably won the biggest sponsors of of their their sites and their newsletters. And so that doesn't motivate them um probably to be there.

And then on top of that, um the the resources are constrained because google sucked up along the revenue. So right, most users don't have enough for back. We're not the day where all the local chicago, L A, new york, all these difference publishers could all send their reporters so they instead rely on like the associated ss or some sort of wire reporter brime. yeah.

So that's difficult. It's a difference. I find it's quite difficult to anise because even like asking you how was google used its monopoly, it's a multifaceted wer IT almost feels like people don't really realize how big google is despite knowing IT nineteen eight.

You just i'm clear to repeat, this is nineteen eight percent of all searches on mobile. That is insane. Yeah yeah.

That is like ford, every every single truck being made by ford other than like a tiny amount. But also every road also been met IT boggles the mind. Yeah yeah.

And then the data that comes, we'll talk about the revenue from that. But then the the data is what understands all of this and it's in the case throughout and and the importance of that data and the .

scale IT almost feels as if the money isn't quite as important or is but just the money is not enough. Alias.

I agree, I agree. I mean, I think the data pieces is everybody is important and and and IT informs and gives unique advantages that no one else has. If you think about being able to merge that mobile query data with the attack data, with the browser data, you know with the android data.

So um yeah so the press um I think i'm optimistic that they're be more trade press because this is advertising specific that will show up at this for the first week and that will be good. Um on the flip side, I think also it's important to that this course house is fairly unique and that IT does any devices in the building. Any any do you put? You just don't bring them.

I want to bring the ability. So jesus, so there's no dreaming. There's no recording. There's nothing.

Is there a live broadcaster? anything?

There is an overflow room where they will have a broadcast into the other room for people that are in the overflow room.

But you can't bring a device to record that .

you are other device into the building.

What's that rationality with them?

I think it's old school core rules and um you know IT does IT limits the ability for the public to watch the witnesses and and so I think that way this course houses you know this this maybe extreme from a google perspective. I mean it's. IT sees a lot of very sense cases.

It's in northern gini. So think the CIA the pantai on like this judge know as I mentioned, dale was a pretty sensitive matters, criminal matters over the years. And so so I think that's the way that they're used to Operating. And I was kind of amusing moment this morning when google try to put in the last minute request to have uh, extra laptop or two in the room for the lawyers to go to look up stuff really quickly exhibits and SHE denied.

Oh, so it's going to be it's going to be like, just to be clear, regular lawyers also print out stuff anyway, but it's going to be just completely analogue the whole way down.

Google will be allowed in the just will be allowed to have a device and a backup device to put exhibits up on the screens so that people in the court room will be able to see visual exhibits on the screens.

So I have to write down a lot yes.

to write down a lie and SHE SHE said that google wasn't allowed to have any other devices beyond those um because he said not the way we do things here.

So so just a for our listeners. Jason will will be joining me every week to go through the happenings of this case. So I feel like it's the most important thing happening in tech, but also being one of the more difficult things to pull upon.

I agree, agree. Well, thank you for the interest.

Yeah of course. So Jason, where can people find you because you're going to be following along and dropping stuff on twitter as well?

Yeah I will be an image and underscore, can't K I N T I also do a plug .

if you don't .

mind for, please. That's to ask U S google 点 com， U S G GLE com. There's a coalition of organizations they are trying to make sure that the public interest has met to. And so there's there's exhibits are being posted there and witnesses in all sorts of documents that as they come out. So I think the goal that of that websites to make sure that is some of the chAllenges the third trial are, are overcome for this one.

Well, Jason, good luck in there. Bring a pen on paper and we ll speak next. We can get update. Thanks so much.

Thank you for listening to Better off offline. The editor um composer of the battle offline theme song is matter sales y you can check out more of his music and audio projects.

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