How to make dating not suck (w/ Logan Ury)
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You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. When it comes to dating and love, I am unbelievably clueless. That's not because I've had bad luck, actually. In fact, it's kind of the opposite. My wife and I started dating in college, and while it wasn't my plan or hers for us to find a spouse while we were still teenagers...

It basically just happened that way. We never broke up. So as a result, I've got nothing to offer when friends ask for dating advice. I'm like, have you tried living in a nearby dormitory? Or what if you just never broke up with the person who you were dating last? That's not very helpful advice. Luckily, though, after today, I am going to be able to send them this episode, which has so many more helpful and practical tips.

And that is because today's guest, Logan Urie, is a dating expert. She's the author of How to Not Die Alone, The Surprising Science That Will Help You Find Love, and she's the dating coach on the new Netflix show The Later Daters, which follows singles in their 50s, 60s, and 70s as they seek out love and companionship.

I think that as you listen to Logan, you're going to find, like I did, that whatever age you are and whatever your current relationship status is, she has some really interesting and new perspectives on relationships and dating and romance. Here's a clip. People are so hard on themselves around dating. But the truth is that we're born knowing how to love, but we're not born knowing how to date.

And what that means is that dating is a skill and you can get better at it. And so for someone out there who feels like I'm alone and I have been for a long time and I'm giving up on my dreams of finding somebody, you really can develop the skills that will help you find the relationship of your dreams. We'll be right back with more from Logan. Don't go away because you're going to love her.

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Our third and final event of 2024 about moving forward together took place on November 20th at the historic Reading Terminal Market. Hosted by TED curator Whitney Pennington Rogers, we featured TED Talks and a moderated Q&A with world champion debater Julia Darr and head of curiosity at the Eames Institute, Scott Shijioka. Thanks to Visit Philadelphia and our supporting partners Bank of America, Comcast NBCUniversal and Highmark.

Go to visitphilly.com slash TED to learn more about this event and to hear about the exciting things we have coming up in 2025.

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On today's episode, we're talking love, dating and relationships with Logan Urie. Hi, I'm Logan Urie. I am a behavioral scientist turned dating coach. I work as the director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge. I'm the onscreen expert for the new Netflix show, The Later Daters, and I wrote the bestselling book, How to Not Die Alone.

What do you think are the biggest roadblocks to people in connecting and dating? I've found that people suffer from dating blind spots. So these patterns of behavior or ways of thinking that hold them back from finding love, but that they can't identify on their own. So for example, when I work with a new coaching client, before our first session, they ask their friends and family, why do you think I'm single?

And for most people, this is the first time they've ever done that with a broader group. And they bring back to me the answers. And sometimes it's things like, oh, you're perfect. There's just no one else out there that's good enough for you or it'll happen when it happens. But oftentimes people do hear things like, I think you're too picky. I don't think you ever got over your ex. I think you bury yourself in work because you're afraid of rejection. And so I think we're

whether it's people doing that exercise on their own or doing it through work with me, that really there are these things that are holding us back that we are not able to identify on our own. For me...

I started dating my wife when we were in college. So I kind of feel like whenever people, sometimes people ask me, cause they're like, oh, you have a relationship that you've been in a successful relationship for a long time. What are your tips? And I'm like, my tips are the same as like your great, great grandfather's. Like you go to school, you meet a girl and then you never break up. Like that's so unhelpful. And so I kind of feel like I am just truly clueless when it comes to even the dating landscape, what modern dating is like.

You're right. So what feels so hard about dating right now is how do you know if you're choosing the right person? And for anyone who has that instinct, it makes sense because for most of human history, we were not choosing who we married. It was really an economic institution where it happened

because of convenience or for one person to trade camels or sheep. And that actually marriage did not become about love until not that long ago. And dating as we know it in terms of two individuals on their own meeting, that happened around 1890 when women were really getting out of the home and working more. And so if you add in apps, which have only been around for about

10 or 11 years, all of this is really new. And so if somebody out there is feeling like it's really hard to meet someone and I don't know how to do it and why am I the one who should know who I should spend the rest of my life with? You are not alone. A lot of people are struggling with that and dating is challenging. What was your experience dating like? So similar to you, I met my husband in college. However, it wasn't like...

We just met and have been dating ever since. So we met in college. And I know because he added me on Facebook, which at the time was, of course, you know, a little bit of flirtation. And then seven years later, after not really seeing each other again, we met.

at Google where we were both working and we just saw each other as friends. We would talk about our dating lives. I was chasing after this other guy. He was doing his own thing. And then he was tutoring me in a statistical programming language called R. And then I was, you know, really lusting after this guy. I met at Burning Man. It didn't work out. I went to a dating coach. The coach really helped me identify who I was.

who I am, what I want, who I should be with. And I realized this guy from Burning Man actually kind of sucks. And this guy at work who has been teaching me R is extremely nice, makes me feel all the ways that I want to feel. And could I convince him to ask me out on a date? And so we started dating eight years after we first met.

Oh, wow. And I love falling in love over programming language is so hilarious. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We call R our love language. That's incredible. Oh, I love that so much. You literally have a love language and it is a programming language. And I have to say, I'm quite bad at R. I don't think I could get anything in it, but I did get a long term relationship and a baby out of it.

What better execution of a program could there be? That's what you're looking for. I agree. When I talk to friends about dating, it seems like a lot of the struggle around dating is like having had a bad experience and then trying to put yourself back out there again. And it's so hard when you get your heart crushed to then think about like trying to build something with someone again. What advice do you have for people who are out there who are listening who are just like, I just...

Can't imagine getting back into the dating world after a breakup It's so interesting because before you said breakup or heartbreak where my head was going was just how people are often feeling very burned out Right now and so it's not necessarily. Oh, I had my heart broken, but it's just like I've been doing this for a long time I have been on dates I've gotten my hopes up then I've been disappointed or I've been ghosted and so I just really do have a lot of empathy for people who are like it hasn't worked the last 50 times why should it work now and

And so anyone, whether you haven't been dating in a while or you're getting over a heartbreak or you've just been in the game for a long time, I think it can make people feel really lonely and really pessimistic.

And so I would say dating has always been hard. Look at sex in the city. Look at things that came way before the apps. I think that dating is challenging. It's I'm presenting myself to you. You're presenting yourself to me. And then at any point, one of us can just press the eject button and reject the other person. And so I think just acknowledging how vulnerable it is, how difficult it is to face rejection, all of those things are true. But also being on the other side of it, it's worth it.

I'm so glad that I'm married. I'm so glad that I have this loving partner, that we're building a family together, that I'm going through life with this person. And so I would say, yes, dating is challenging and there can be really high highs and really low lows. But if you have a goal of finding somebody, then it's worth it to keep trying.

I wonder, like, is the path to happiness actually finding love and a partner? Or is that just something that we are kind of told is like the one acceptable way to find fulfillment in your life?

So I think there's a lot of ways that people can be fulfilled. One of my favorite topics is this idea of other significant others. And this comes from research from the excellent relationship scientist at Northwestern, Eli Finkel. And this is the idea that we now expect so much from our partners. We expect them to be our career coach. We expect them to be our tennis partner. We expect them to be the perfect co-parent, our lover, all of these things. And that

Almost all of the time, our partner is not really qualified or interested in playing all those roles. So we ask for everything from one person and then we get disappointed. And we need to change this by actually having a community of people that we rely on for this type of stuff. And so the research behind

other significant others or OSOs is that if you can make a list of some of the different needs in your life and the different people who you go to for those needs, then people who have a longer list of different people, those relationships actually tend to be a lot happier.

I honestly have thought about this at pretty much every stage of my life is that I understand that not everyone has this experience or that everyone loves this experience. But for me, the like experience of being at a college campus where I could walk across campus.

the green and know that I'd probably run into a few people I knew just by doing that, that is something that I think I've been chasing for my entire adult life. It's like, how can I move into closer proximity to friends so that when I go to the grocery store, I'm going to run into someone? Or how can I make it so that when I'm out for a walk, I cross paths with someone? The classic cliche of, I need to borrow a cup of sugar because I'm baking. How can I make that real? I've always wanted that. And I think it does go to the idea of like,

So many people want to date because they want that companionship. They want that feeling of like, there's someone who knows me and cares about me around. And I think it's really powerful what you brought up is that there are also other ways of filling that need or close to that need. It's not like that's the only need you get from dating. Yeah. And I think a criticism that I've encountered for the last few years with my book coming out is people say, your book's called How to Not Die Alone. Why do you think everyone needs to find love? It's like,

No, if I wrote a book called How to Speak German or How to Barbecue, I'm not saying the world needs to speak German or barbecue, but if you would like to learn how to do that, read this book on those skills. So my book is for people who are looking to find that

long-term romantic relationship and want some help. But I don't feel like everyone who doesn't have a romantic relationship is missing out or that their lives would instantly be so much better if they found it. But as someone who has been in a relationship for 10 years and feels like it's a pretty defining part of my life, I want to help people who also want that to get it. One of the goals for me when I sit down with someone is...

I want to connect with them. I want to have a genuine connection with this person. And I want that because that's more fun for me. I also want that because that makes a better podcast episode. So we've already kind of done the first level of screening where I'm not just like sitting down with people and going like, oh, two minutes in, got nothing to talk about. But when you do sit down with someone where you want to really be with them and talk to them, a challenge that I find a lot is how do you talk to a person in a way that you

are vulnerable and authentic, but also gives them space to speak. But then the second part is how do you get this person to say things that aren't just their shtick? The thing they've said in 400 dates before where they're on autopilot. How do you get them to say something where it's a new experience for them too? How do you get off autopilot and into the genuine moment?

My friend Kristen Berman calls it press play. It's like there's a tape in your head and you know the answers and you press play. And the point is that nobody enjoys press play conversations. Like I would say even for me at this point in talking about my work, it's like I can do the press play answers very easily. But am I connecting the dots or having new thoughts around them? No, not really. So if we take the premise that it's not fun, novel, memorable, etc. should be

in press play mode, then how can you avoid it?

The people that I know who have been really successful with dating, it's not just what somebody might think, oh, the tallest guy or the most attractive people. I think, yes, of course, that helps in the dating world. But it's also somebody who can really create a new experience with somebody and someone who's a great conversationalist. And so I think bringing it back to your podcast analogy, it's what makes a really great podcast interview. It's somebody who's curious and

and somebody who's interested, not interesting.

Chris, I think if you spent the whole podcast telling everyone how interesting you are or bringing the attention back to yourself to make jokes, I don't think this podcast would exist anymore because people wouldn't enjoy it. And I don't think the guests would really enjoy it. But what you do to make podcast guests feel comfortable is ask a lot of questions and really make them feel interesting. So that's the first tip is be interested, not interesting. The best conversationalists are really people who

make you feel fascinating. The second tip is this idea of support versus shift responses. So a shift response is that somebody says something like, oh, I have an upcoming trip to Michigan. And then the shift response, shifting it back to yourself is, oh, I've been to Michigan before. Here's what I did when I was there. And you feel like you're

compiling and adding on to the conversation, but actually you're redirecting it to you. A support response sounds like, how did you choose Michigan? Have you ever been there before? What are you most excited about doing there? And so I think just somebody practicing support versus shift responses and really paying attention to how often in life do you feel like, oh, well, I'm having a great conversation because I keep saying how I relate. It's like,

No, it's actually less about how you relate and more about helping that person explore who they are and have a new conversation that they haven't had.

I love that. I love those tips to get out of press play mode. So ironically, I'm going to ask you to do something that I bet is press play mode for you. I find your three dating tendencies to be such a useful framework. So maybe let's do a little bit of press play on that and then we can talk about how they apply. So the three dating tendencies is a framework that I came up with from working with a bunch of clients and just feeling like there's these common themes or personas that are coming out.

in terms of what's holding people back, but that they can't identify on their own. So the first one is the romanticizer. And for anyone out there listening who says things like, I just haven't met my soulmate yet. I'm waiting for love to happen to me. I really want that happily ever after. I want the romantic we met story. You might be a romanticizer. And so romanticizers are very focused on

the way that the relationship started and they believe there's one person out there for them and they expect that relationships will be effortless and that if the relationship ends up requiring work, they think, oh, this must not be the right person for me. And for the romanticizers, it's really about shifting them from what psychologist Renee Franny calls the soulmate mindset, the idea that love is all about finding the right person to the work it out mindset, which is the idea that

Great relationships require work and that if you're putting in work, that's a good thing. And so romanticizers often get mad at me because they feel like I'm bursting their bubble around their love story. But I say, what's romantic is that you met someone and you committed to them. Who cares how you met?

And the day you met, if you're together for 50 years, is 0.0055% of your total relationship. So let's get you out of the soulmate mindset. Let's turn off the Hallmark channel and really get you out there creating this relationship of your dreams.

And the second one is the maximizer. And I would say the majority of my clients, because I live in the Bay Area and I work with a lot of people in New York, are maximizers. And these are the people who are like, I can research my way to finding the perfect person. If I was going to buy a vacuum, I would look on Wirecutter. And if I'm going to find the perfect person, of course, I'm going to do all my research.

And I think the instinct there to try on different people and get to know yourself is good, but they definitely push it too far where they feel like, okay, well, I've met all these great people. I need to keep going to find the perfect person. And they miss out on the fact that,

Of course, you want to find someone great, but that it's really up to you to put the work in to build this great relationship. It's not just about finding the perfect person. And so for the maximizers, they often need to understand you've likely already met someone who you could have created a great relationship with. How can you find someone great, invest in it and really build that relationship and not spend decades of your life trying to find this perfect person who is very unlikely to exist? Yeah.

And then the third type is the hesitator. And I definitely have a lot of empathy for the hesitator. So these are people who are actually not dating at all and they have unrealistic expectations of themselves. So this is the kind of person who feels like they are not lovable yet and they do not want to put themselves out there because they feel like no one would love them in their current state. So this is the kind of person who says,

I need to lose weight. I need a more impressive job. I need to clean my apartment. I need to move to a better city. And what they don't understand is that they're underestimating the opportunity cost of not dating. So the opportunity cost here is that you don't get to figure out what kind of person you want to be with and you don't improve your dating skills. And so for the hesitator, it's really about understanding you're never 100 percent ready for anything.

These are skills that you can develop, and it's much better to put yourself out there and start learning than to just sit around waiting for this day when you'll magically feel ready to start dating. We're going to take a quick break and we will be right back after this.

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We are back with dating coach Logan Urie, who just described some tendencies that we may have when it comes to dating. But what if you're a person who doesn't have a lot of dating options? So let's talk about some. I asked Logan for advice. So if you are on Hinge and you are getting a lot of options.

Of course, you are in a lucky position and you get to choose among these people and actually Hinge just released this new feature where when you hit the limit of conversations, you actually have to reply to your matches or close out of them before you can match with new people. So some people have too many options and they actually need help navigating that.

Of course, there's the other side of the equation, which is people who aren't getting enough matches. For them, the number one thing that they can do is really improve their profile. When I have a client and I look at their profile, I'm like, this profile is boring and it does not match the person that I'm seeing in front of me. So really people investing in their photos, in their prompts, having a mixture of humor and vulnerability. And it's a vulnerable exercise. It's basically saying, here's my online billboard telling people

You why you should love me. Yeah, that's freaking scary. I get it. But it also does matter. So investing in your profile is the first thing you can do. And then also being proactive about sending likes, sending comments, and really putting out there telling the algorithm, this is who I'm interested in.

And then finally, I think a piece that people underestimate is consistency. You really do have to be consistent if you're going to find success with this. So being consistent means logging in and checking your messages, following up with people, not canceling dates, letting people know if you're interested or not after those dates. And really the people who just go on these dating binges and go on a bunch of dates in the week,

burn themselves out, delete the app, a few months later, download it again. I feel like those cycles don't feel good. But if you can actually date in a sustainable way that you can maintain over time, I think those are the people that are most successful at actually turning the process of dating into the goal they want, which is finally never having to date again. It seems like those same tips apply just as much in dating off of the apps, right? Like being consistent, following up, something that

I've thought about a lot in the non-romantic way, but I think applies just as much to the romantic ways. It's just be consistent in joining an organization or doing an activity or just even being in a place, right? Like if you go to the same coffee shop and

every day at the same time, eventually you'll start to see familiar faces at the very least. And that's the start of the potential to meet those people to make friends. But I imagine it's also the start of the potential to meet someone who you could go on a date with. I think that that's definitely true. One of my friends...

His advice on this is that people often say, oh, go to events. And he's like, but if you just go to a bunch of different events, there's no consistency. He's like, why don't you actually join one of those groups and put on the events? So his feeling is if you're back of house and you're part of the committee that's throwing those Shabbat dinners for people to meet, then you actually are meeting the people.

on the committee very often and you're meeting the people who come to the events very often. So that's his piece of advice. What is the way that you want to meet someone in the world? And if that event doesn't exist, can you create it? What is one thing that someone should do to prepare or while they are on a first date?

One thing that people should do is really try to incorporate a sense of play. Some of the most successful daters I know, what they're really good at is having novel, memorable experiences with their dates. And so if you just go on coffee walks, you're not going to have that good of a time necessarily, and neither is the person, but can you do something more interesting?

It could even just be, can you go to a bookstore and walk around and talk about the books that you're seeing? If it's the winter and you want to go to the park and ice skate, what are things that you could do together that will help you sort of break out of that press play autopilot mold, help you have a novel experience?

And if you say, oh, that's too much work for a first date. I don't even know if I like them. Great. Then make the novel experience the conversation. How can you bring in an interesting topic? How can you ask them questions that they haven't been asked before? How can you give those support responses that help them go deep? Because really what you're trying to do is you're trying to be the antidote to all the bad dates that they've ever been on.

And what's something that people should do if they are on, let's say, a date somewhere between 5 and 12? So you've been on a few and figuring each other out still. One thing that I would do if you've been on 5 to 12 dates is actually invite your friends to meet this person. But don't ask your friends, what did you think of her? Ask your friends, what did you think of me around her? Because your friends are not experts on that other person and they're not experts on your relationship, but they are experts on you.

And listen to the feedback that they give you around whether you seemed natural with that person, if you seemed comfortable, if you seemed anxious, really what side of you do they think that this person brought out? I love that. I want to ask you a question that is from...

a friend of one of our producers. So this question comes from a friend of mine who's so social and easy to talk to, but anytime he starts to like someone romantically, he just turns to pudding and cannot speak or act like a normal person. And it really hinders his ability to date. And he finds it really frustrating himself too, that he can't better control his brain or emotions in those moments. This person says,

Why do our brains sometimes do the opposite of what we want them to do when we develop a crush on someone? So, for example, like, why do I act so embarrassing when I'm around my crush and how can I get over that? So the basic thing here is understanding that our brains often act in irrational ways against our own best interest. So that's why, you know, people say, I want to lose weight. And then they immediately go out and eat everything they can at an all you can eat brunch. Or we say we want to save for retirement and then we get upset.

an email from Anthropologie and we buy a new lamp. So we're often acting against our own best interest, but I think nowhere is this more true than in matters of the heart. So first just wanna start by empathizing with this person. The second thing is that I think this is a place where attachment style really does get in the way. So for example, if you were anxiously attached and that means that you constantly have a fear that somebody is going to abandon you, then when that person doesn't respond to your text in the normal amount of time,

or somebody says that they're gonna get back to you and they don't, your brain really goes into the danger zone and you really start spiraling and thinking, they never liked me, this isn't gonna work out, people always leave me. And in those moments, you just don't feel like yourself. You really don't. It's like your brain is hijacked by these emotions.

And then you do what's called protest behavior, where you act out and you send them a million texts and then turn off your phone or you yell at them. And I just feel like some of the most embarrassing moments of my life, a few of them are going through my head right now, when I did protest behavior because of anxious attachment and somebody pulling away.

And for somebody who's avoidant attached, the same thing happens. They feel like someone's going to smother them. And when somebody starts studying too close or spending too much time at their house and they feel like, when is this person ever going to leave? Then they kind of go into their spiral mode, their danger zone, and they push people away. That's the first point that I wanted to make. The other thing I want to tell this person is that

this is actually a beautiful thing. Falling in love, having a crush, what an amazing, exciting feeling. When we look at brain scans, fMRIs of people falling in love, the same part of their brain lights up

when they think about that person as a drug addict who thinks about the drug that they're addicted to. So love is literally a drug and we are addicted to it, especially in those falling in love moments. So instead of saying, why am I falling into a puddle? Can he actually think I

I feel so excited that I get to experience this thing, that I fall hard, that I crush hard. And I'm going to be easier on myself about this and just understand that falling in love is a beautiful thing. And that if it does feel like your brain is being hijacked by your crush, you're right. OK, what about you're on a date and it's 10 minutes in, it's five minutes in and you just know this is not going to work?

what do you do? Do you just leave? Do you go through with the whole date? My initial advice is that if you are somebody who this often happens to, how can you actually date in a different way? So it might be that you need to screen people differently. Maybe you should be doing FaceTime dates or phone calls before you go on dates to make sure that you do have something in common with this person or that you're attracted to them. So that's one strategy to make sure that this happens to you less often. But another strategy is to actually rethink what you're looking for on the date. If you're looking for the spark,

if you're looking for instant chemistry, then you might be making a pretty big mistake because what we know from the research is that only 11% of happily married couples experience love at first sight. For many people, that spark grows over time. There's something called the mere exposure effect. The more that we're

exposed to something, the more familiar it is, the more we like it. And so I would actually challenge that person to think, how can I give these dates more of a chance? That being said, if you're truly not into it, give them one drink, give them 30 to 60 minutes, and then you can say, hey, it was lovely to meet you, but I actually have to get home. I have an early meeting or an early workout tomorrow. And I think you can just call it a night. Yeah.

What about you've been together for a while, a long time. What's a piece of advice when you're trying to decide like, okay, I'm going to commit, whether that is we're going to move in together or we're going to get married or whatever that commitment is. What's something that people should think about as they're taking their relationship to the next level? My

My biggest piece of advice around that would just be to have a really explicit conversation about what you both want and what you both think that this next step means. So specifically around moving in together, what I advise people is to have a conversation that says, does this mean that we're engaged to be engaged or does it mean that we're just moving in together? And if one of you thinks one thing and the other thinks something,

something else, then you probably aren't ready to move in together. So sometimes when people are in that falling in love stage, they just assume, well, this is what I think and believe. So I bet the other person thinks the same thing. And that can often lead to really challenging results. So have the conversation around what it means, what you both want. And if it's around getting married, you know, do you want kids? How many? What's the

what are we looking for later in life? And the sooner that you can have those conversations, the sooner you can make sure that this is the right person for you and that you're on the same page. I feel like all of the advice that you've given is applicable whatever life stage you're at. But I imagine that many people are kind of like me, where when you're imagining these people that we're talking about, you're imagining someone younger. And I think it's interesting to...

challenge that idea because I know that one of your newest project is actually all about people who are dating later in life and having these same feelings, having these same experiences and struggles, but they're not in their 20s or 30s. They're in their 60s or 70s or maybe even older. What is different if there is anything about trying to date when you are later in life?

I would say my bread and butter research and my experience was really with Gen Z and millennial daters. And then I had this opportunity to do the show for Netflix called The Later Daters. And when

One of the main reasons why I said yes is because of who the producers were. So it's the people who made Love on the Spectrum. It's the group that did Cheer and Chef's Table. And then it's Higher Ground and specifically Michelle Obama is the executive producer. But then once I started doing it, I feel so lucky that it was with this population of 55 plus daters because I really learned a lot from it. And I think the key thing that really came through for me is this idea that dating is a skill.

That you don't just wake up one day at 60 after being in three marriages and really know how to find someone. I think it's something where you really have to slow down, take a step back, look at your past relationship history, look at the red flags that you've ignored, look at how you've changed and what you want now and really make a conscious choice to date differently.

And so I think working with this older population, there's things that are clearly harder about it, such as the fact that people have more baggage. There's a smaller dating pool. But there's also advantages like you might know yourself more. You aren't going to be raising kids with these people, most likely. So it doesn't matter as much if you have the same religion or all of the same values that you might have wanted in somebody who you love.

raised a family with. I think there's a lot of creative ways to be together. There's this thing called LAT, living apart together. You don't necessarily need to combine your homes. You don't need to get married and combine your finances. I think there's a lot more relationship structures that people are exploring later in life. And so I think just this opportunity to work with this set of daters, it showed me what is...

universal about finding love, which is that we are looking for acceptance. We're looking for somebody to get close with, but also the things that are unique about dating in this time period.

What are the steps that you take to actually do that? So I think the first thing that I would do for that person is I would want them to make a list of what they really want right now. So where are you in life and what are you looking for? Are you looking for companionship? Are you looking for somebody to sleep with?

Are you looking for a travel partner? Are you looking for somebody who shares your hobbies? Really, what are you looking for right now? And really being open to that arrangement being different than the traditional marriage. Of course, you can pursue that, but also really think about how do I want to spend the next chapter of my life? So I think getting really clear on what you want and maybe even taking a look around and seeing what are the relationship structures that exist now that maybe did not exist a few decades ago.

Then the next thing I would do is do some form of relationship audit. I like to do this in a spreadsheet, but somebody can do it however they want. Really look back and say, the major relationships in my life or the people I've dated for a while, how did I meet them? What was good about our relationship? What was bad about our relationship? What side of me did they bring out? What are things from this relationship that I would want in a future relationship?

And make that list and take a look at it and say, what are some of the themes? Oh, I noticed that I've tended to meet all of these people through friends of friends. Okay, well, that's a clue for you for how you might meet the next person. Or I noticed that something that was bad in a lot of these relationships is that I didn't feel like I could be myself.

Okay, well, that's really important information for you to know in the future. When you are dating, how can you be in a relationship where you make sure you do feel like yourself? And so really looking at these things, and this is what I do as a coach, is the pattern recognition. And then you kind of have a sense of,

who you are, what you want, maybe what's been holding you back in the future, and then you make a plan. And so I think the next piece is just how can you start to meet more potential romantic matches? So I think it might be signing up for a dating app. You might sign up for a speed dating event. You could email a bunch of friends and say, hey, this is vulnerable, but do you know anyone who

might be interested in me. Here's a little bit about me and here's the kind of people I tend to be drawn to and really putting it all out there in terms of trying to find those connections. And then the next piece is really going on first dates, trying to design first dates that bring out the best side of you, that really help you reflect and

I have this list called the post-date eight. And these are questions that people can ask themselves after a date that really train you to look for not who is this person on paper, which doesn't matter, but how does this person make me feel and what's our dynamic? And then from there, I think it's about being consistent, going on dates, being a good communicator, trying to learn from those lessons of running away from red flags and running towards green flags, and then just trying to be the person who you will

would want to be in a relationship and trying to find someone who brings out the best side of you. And hopefully from there, just finding that person that really fulfills the type of relationship structure that you're looking for right now. If you are coming back to it from a long period of not having dated, or if you've been dating for a while, but never really gotten past that first, you know, first few dates, how much of dating is about changing who you are to make yourself the kind of person other people would want to be with?

And how much of it is not that and instead finding the person who wants to be with you or changing your strategy? Because I think that a lot of times people, when it's not working, it's hard to know if it's like, well, is this me or is this the other person or is this something else entirely?

So in my book, I have this thing called the wardrobe test, which is a way for you to determine whether or not you should break up with your partner. And it sounds a little glib when you hear it, but it's in context of a lot of other questions. But it's something that I use with my clients and I found is helpful. And we can just do it as an example. So, Chris, I want you to think about if...

Molly were a piece of clothing in your closet, something that you wear, what piece of clothing would she be? Wow. This is... Just gut. Just gut. The reason I'm saying this is so challenging is I have like six pieces of clothing total. It's okay. Okay. Real things that I own. She's a Uniqlo grade t-shirt because it's a dependable everyday thing that I like and wear all the time. But...

I don't think that captures the special. No, no, no. And it's not about like minimizing Molly's traits. It's just like clearly you've determined that at this point in your life, a big part of your daily wardrobe is your gray Uniqlo t-shirt and you just find yourself, you keep reaching for it. Absolutely. It works. It's comfortable. It's something I wear without even thinking about.

I think that's great. And, you know, I think that's an answer for someone who's in a loving relationship. And some of the answers that I've heard over the years that are more negative are things like my boyfriend is a wool sweater. It's keeps me warm, but it is itchy and I want to take it off. Or my boyfriend is a ratty sweatshirt or ratty T-shirt that I would wear to the gym, but hope nobody sees me. And it's like it sounds weird.

hyperbolic when I say it, but these are real answers that I've gotten. It's like a chance for somebody to just tune in to add a gut level. How do they feel about their partner and how does this person make them feel? And so I like the wardrobe test and I think it's worked for me. But then a few years ago, I was doing some sort of Zoom session and somebody in the audience was like,

What about a wardrobe test for yourself? Who are you? And so he was like, I feel like I am a sweatshirt with a broken zipper. He's like, I am not really functioning right now. I'm not doing well. I can't keep somebody warm. He just was being really hard on himself. And I thought that it was a really interesting point because so much of my book is about

identifying your blind spots and then making better decisions in who you should be with. But my book isn't necessarily about like how to make yourself more desirable as a partner. And I think that there is something to that. Of course, be yourself because if you pretend to be somebody else, that's eventually going to blow up in your face when the person realizes who you actually are and then it's not going to work out anyway. So it's like don't pretend to be the cool girl who loves sports and poker when you actually hate that because then you're going to end up in a relationship with someone who thinks you are that and you're not.

So I think the most basic answer is be yourself. But I think the more nuanced answer is that if you are someone who's not reliable, who isn't kind, who doesn't have their shit together, then why would somebody choose you? And what are the things that you can do to improve yourself? If you need to be in therapy to deal with some stuff that happened to you,

Please do that because that is going to make you a happier person and also make it easier for people to date you and not feel like they have to be your unpaid therapist. If you feel like you're just not very reliable and you constantly are breaking plans, well, who wants to date someone like that? That's very challenging. And so what are the things in your life? What are the...

What processes that you can create or what are the systems that you can set up that will help you be more reliable? And so I think it's that, yes, you should be yourself because you want people to meet the real you. But if you feel like there are parts of your life that would make it hard for somebody to want to commit to you, then I would encourage you to work on those things. It's funny to think about what I would be in the wardrobe test because I'm like, once again, it's a great T-shirt. And I do think that this just reveals how little I have in my wardrobe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Molly, if you're listening, we think that you're a sparkly dress and you're perfect. Yes, I got to get one of those in my wardrobe. That's what I need. That's what you need. Yeah. That's the best advice I've given you all hour. Absolutely. Buy a sparkly dress so that you have this in your wardrobe. Well, Logan, thank you so much for being on the show. This was incredible. I really could have talked to you for 10 hours and that's the sign of a great interview for me. So thank you so much for being here. Yay. Thanks, Chris. And thanks for being interested and interesting. I'll take it.

That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Logan Urie. Her book is called How to Not Die Alone, and her new Netflix show is called The Later Daters. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com.

How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team so talented that they make me swoon. On the TED side, we've got Daniela Balarezo, Ban Ban Cheng, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Lainey Lott, Antonia Leigh, and Joseph DeBrine. This episode was fact-checked with loving care by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas. On the PRX side, we've got hot dates all around Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Maggie Goreville, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course, thanks to you for going out on this audio date with our show.

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