The 12 Books of Christmas | Jordan Stephens on Love, Chaos and Becoming a Man
58:57 Share

This episode is sponsored by Oracle. Even if you think it's a bit overhyped, AI is suddenly everywhere. From self-driving cars to molecular medicine to business efficiency. If it's not in your industry yet, it's coming fast. But AI needs a lot of speed and computing power, so how do you compete without costs spiraling out of control? Time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, or OCI.

OCI is a blazing fast and secure platform for your infrastructure, database and application development, plus all your AI and machine learning workloads. OCI costs 50% less for compute and 80% less for networking. So you're saving a pile of money. Thousands of businesses have already upgraded to OCI, including MGM Resorts, Specialized Bikes and Fireworks AI.

Right now, Oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to OCI for new U.S. customers with minimum financial commitment. Offer ends 31st of December 2024. See if your company qualifies for this special offer at oracle.com. That's oracle.com.

The Yeti store has so many great gifts, we had to hire a cattle auctioneer to make the most of these next 30 seconds. All right, folks, let's get started with the Yeti French Press. Enjoy coffee that stays hot for hours in the French Press. 34 ounce for you, 6-4 for the crews of the Yeti French Press. Next, waterproof bags, bags waterproof. Submersible waterproof doubles, waterproof bag bags. For us, mostly waters to get a waterproof Yeti bag. Do I smell something cooking? Oh, new cast iron skillets, mate.

be passed down like mama's recipes. Take a steak, cornbread, cobbler's pot pie, and potatoes next level with three sizes of Yeti cast iron skillets. Gear, gifts, and product experts. Visit the Yeti store at Scottsdale Quarter today. This episode is brought to you by AWS. Amazon Q Business is the generative AI assistant that can securely understand your business data, summarize results, and streamline tasks. Learn what Amazon Q Business can do for you at aws.com slash learn more.

Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm Head of Programming, Conor Boyle. We're looking back at some of our favourite books of the year in our 12 books of Christmas.

Hey! How we doing, everyone? We good?

All right, just to clarify, I am the host for this conversation. Okay, this isn't the JLS Tribute Act. Has everyone read the book? All right, this guy in the front with the guns out, what's your name? Nat. Okay, do you read the book? Get out. Let's see what else we've got. Stripe top. Yeah, yeah, looking away with the glasses. You read the book? Oh yeah, actually there's a few of you with the glasses. Sorry, this is the visually impaired side of the crowd. Okay, forget that. Okay, cardigan, crochet game on fire. Have you read the book?

Okay, right, listen, all I'm saying is, I'm not judging you, God is, right? So everyone, thank you so much for coming out. I'm so excited to talk to Jordan. I think Jordan is a great man. He's really smart, he's very kind, he has a lot of love to give to the world. And I think when you read the book, you get a sense of that.

Jordan, if you don't know, is now an author. He's an actor. He's a musician. He's had five UK top tens. He was in Star Wars Rogue One. And I think his biggest achievement was actually being featured on the Shaun the Sheep, the movie soundtrack. So would you please put your hands together for Jordan Stevens? Keep it going. Keep it going. Oh, wow. Wow.

You're not wrong about Shaun the Sheep. Dude, that completely slipped my radar. That should be literally top of the LinkedIn. When we got an email saying, do you want to be part of an Aardman creation? We were like, 1,000%. Yeah, man. That's British legacy right there. Dude, 100%. And also, I used to eat Play-Doh. So that has a special...

That's a special connection for me. Also, you'll appreciate this. In that Shaun the Sheep soundtrack, I say something like, you can count on him, but don't fall asleep. Baz, ladies and gentlemen. That's what we call Baz. No, no. Oh, Baz. Bro, get me in Rizzle Kicks right now, bro. What's the other guy's name? Harley. Bro, drop Harley. Get me in Rizzle Kicks right now. Swear to God. We know about your rap ability.

But I'm thinking there's literally no other context in which I can drop a sheep-related bar like that. Dang. Do we have to talk about the book or should we just... I think we can stick on Shaun the Sheep for a little bit, but... Okay. So, right. The book...

Okay, I keep getting the name confused, but I know it's avoidance, drugs, heartbreak and dogs. Yes. ADH and D. Okay. Yes. So I guess the first question is, well, how do you feel, I guess? And I know everyone would have asked you this, but we were discussing a quote before the show. And I don't know who this quote came from, probably iSpice. And it is the two most valuable things you can leave on earth, a life or art experience.

Right? And, you know, as somebody who creates something, I know that you're probably very self-critical. Maybe you're not. Maybe you're super self-celebratory. I'm very, very self-critical. However, how do you feel the fact that you made this? I'm like, I just really can't get over that everyone's here. I think just...

Just to give an idea of why this is so trippy for me, is during the time in this book, I know this book literally, Munir's Wonder of One Up, it came out like fucking five days ago. I didn't expect to read it. But during the time that I'm exploring in this book, I actually went to an Intelligence Squared event. I didn't include that in the book, but a friend of mine took me to Intelligence Squared to see an author talk about their book. And that author, coincidentally, ended up helping me

write my book after me writing something for the guardian but that event was like the one of the first times in my life where i really thought whoa i would love to you know write a book and have people come and and and see me talk about it i guess in a way and so it's tripped out because then i went through all that shit and i wrote a book and everyone's fucking here like at intelligent squared so it's an incredible feeling i thank you all so much for coming i can't even really compute it but uh

I am so proud of myself for doing it, which is a big thing for me to say because I am critical of myself and I struggle to self-validate, but it's quite difficult. Even my most talented, nasty creative voice in my head struggles to argue with me having written a whole book. It's reached its limits of like, how do I make Jordan feel shit about this? He's like, I fucking can't, man. It's like a whole book.

like 73,000 words like well done fuck so yeah I'm glad and you know I do think that with your quote from the beginning I do consider that a lot I want to ice spices ice spice profound philosopher ice spice my intention with this is to create something that will exist after I die for sure that has to be the dream whether or not it happens is another thing but that

that's the beauty of words of writing you know like you can read a sentence that was written 100 years ago and feel as though you're in that moment that is a fucking magic you know so uh that is of course the goal so yeah well dude like i said um it's a huge achievement just to leave art i think but can you tell the story of what you consumed to celebrate because we know you're straight edge yeah so what do you do to celebrate such a massive achievement you eat a massive croissant

Now, we're not just talking, this wasn't like your average croissant. Show them how big it was. It was... Go on. No, yeah. You want me to show them my croissant? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not that big. And now the croissant. I wish. Was it the one... Actually, no, I don't, because that is an unfortunate gender conformant. That is a social norm I stand against. Average. Average. Average. Responsibly sized dick energy, bro. Some people were irresponsible dicks and shit, man. It's fucking... Yeah. Making porn. What are we like?

All right, let's get into it. So I've read the book. I went through it with a highlighter and I'm just going to ask the stuff that sort of really stuck out in my mind and hopefully it crosses over with some of the stuff other people were thinking. I guess there's a sort of everyone in these interviews is asking you what's it like to write a book, this, that and the other. That's sort of the base layer question. I actually would love to know what were some of the weirdest things you did to procrastinate? Because when you're trying to make a work of art,

Sometimes procrastination is part of the brain's way of thinking what to do next. Did you find yourself down any weird YouTube wormholes? Where did you go?

Listen, hey, I know Louis Theroux's looking for a replacement. I think I'm doing a pretty good job. Dude, what? 100%. Like, so, you know, there's a resistance. For me, I found there was resistance when writing a lot of the time. If I have a lot of time, hours and hours, I'll go to write and then I think, oh, I could do this instead or do that or da-da-da-da. And it is surprising how many urges there are that...

Look, listen, I'm always going down YouTube holes for sure. Let's just put that out of the way. I'm always, I'm fascinated with YouTube. I will spend hours, you know, just figuring things out, researching random court cases. I don't know what's going on. And so, yeah, of course, and then I'll realize that I should be on it. But I had to embrace that side of me. You know, like, I have, of course, been twice diagnosed with ADHD, but

nowadays it seems like this hot button topic because I think the existence we all live in crosses over with the symptoms of ADHD so you know so often so people are wanting to get this diagnosis now because just the nature of existence now is so instant and reward based that people are like fuck maybe I can't pay attention I don't think anybody can pay attention

So yeah, that pressure to remain focused was heavy. And yeah, I actually ended up just embracing it. I do need sometimes five, six hours, four hours of, you know, like kind of, I don't know what, and then eventually I'll hit a sweet spot. And then other times they're time pressured. A lot of the book I wrote an hour before I fell asleep for months. It was just before bed. I would just hit like two pages. I don't know why. I've never been able to do it since. I mean, maybe that's your mind when it's sort of so exhausted of willpower

where they call it willpower depletion, where you start off with this jug full of water and then every decision you make across the day depletes your willpower, such that probably by the end of the day, your mind was maybe freer than it was at the start when you've got all that pressure on you. Oh, right. Okay, I thought that was a really great theory, actually. That's deep. So... I agree. Some people in here haven't read the book, Zac Efron in the front row.

It was out, it's four days, it's like, it literally came out like last Thursday. Okay, well, there's Audible, all right? You don't have to read it, you can listen to it. So I'll try and give a picture of the book without spoiling anything. But for me anyway, it was the story of a man and his addiction, you know, his heartbreak, lots of the unresolved masculinity that he'd been grappling with. It involves family, it involves friendship, finding new love.

And what I really struggled with within the book was that essentially it felt like because somebody I know recently, a friend of mine, cheated. Obviously, within this book, there is a story of cheating.

And because of the stories we hear about your life and all the context we're given, ultimately, I think the cheater ends up absolved in a way, right? Because we get to love the person behind the act in your book. So the question I'm leading to is, you know, that was obviously something people might have felt towards the end. Oh, you know, maybe I empathize, but I doubt that was your main goal for the book.

So I suppose, what did you write the book for? Yeah. And does that balance out people getting to the end of the book and going, oh, actually, I forgive him for cheating? Because that's not what you're looking to justify, is it? No, not at all. The idea of the book is to exist in a space of moral ambiguity. And my actions run parallel with my own duality. Much of the book is me accepting and attempting to integrate

a you know I don't know shadow self or darker side of myself that if not looked at if not loved if not appreciated will act out that's how I ended up looking at it you know and I thought it was important to write a book where you know I'm coming to terms with betrayal and infidelity because for whatever reason in society you know of course having been um through that side of it I've been on both sides I was cheated on when I was younger but it's a little more serious when you're older and

Being the cheater is so painfully black and white, the discussion around it. Anybody who's ever cheated in the history of mankind has watched Esther Perel talk on YouTube, by the way. And Esther Perel is like, she's a, for those who don't know, pretending they don't know. Who is she? She's like a YouTuber or something. Yeah.

She's a relationship therapist, French woman. She had a TED Talk that went viral because she saw... And the TED Talk is called Why Happy People Cheat. Any show on television that's ever referenced cheating literally referenced Esther Perel. I Hate Susie, Billy Piper, talking about cheating, Esther Perel. Like, everybody will talk about Esther Perel because it's the only... She's like the only glimmer of hope in a space where everybody tells you you're a piece of shit. Like...

like every every idea once a cheat always a cheat I literally in the book right for those who haven't got there yeah sorry just a little spoiler I when dealing with the guilt and regret of having cheated I googled you know like can you ever get somebody back after cheating and the first response on a reddit thread was first thing you need to know is you've just ruined someone's life I was like sweet all right so uh and

But, you know, I think I was enticed by the reality that the conversation doesn't happen often. And also just the side of me that wants to kind of untangle life and see the patterns within it or like understand the inner workings of it. I think to myself, surely people aren't dealing with it in a way that...

is congruent to like a happier way of being. Like a lot of people are carrying trauma from that into another relationship, whether they have done it or they have received that betrayal is being carried and it's not being dealt with because it's got this black and white, good, bad element to it. So again, I'm not trying to assign any more moral label. It's just that this is an existence. This is the inner workings of it. This is having someone who is this cheat. This is

I felt I acted like that and this is how I've dealt with it. And, you know, I'd like to believe that my existence from this point is proof that those things can change and you can make healthier choices and often it's not what you think it is. That's really it. And also the other part of it is I told the truth. I took a little long to do it, but I did tell the truth. And that was another interesting part of it.

it. In this conversation you hear people talk about cheating they say you know if someone cheated on them they definitely want to know. I read that online but then equally the same amount of people said that if they cheated they'd never say. So people think that telling people that you've cheated is a selfish act. It's just so much it's just interesting. I don't think I don't have any answers it's just like

This happens to everybody since the dawn of love, the dawn of time, this has happened. It's happened continuously. Let's have a healthy conversation about it to make sure we don't hurt each other anymore and we can commit more effectively. And I know it feels good to do that. 100%. And I think also it's a really interesting conversation

to use the taboo to travel through into all of the themes which you cover in the book. Obviously, drugs is a huge part of this story. And ultimately, I think for me, from when I read the book, it was coming from a place of often escapism, but also I just want to be liked. I want to be accepted and I want approval and I want access into certain chambers where the drugs are going to take me.

can definitely hard relate to doing some of that stuff. So before we talk about the drugs, what I did want to ask you was, did you go through any... This is way before the book, maybe even. Did you go through any fashion phases or any things that you did in desperation to be liked that you look back at now and think, oh my God, how did I do that? Because I had a mohawk, bro. So the bar is... You had a mohawk? I had a mohawk. Don't Google it. Don't Google it. Phones are not allowed in church. I'll be watching every single one of you. I mean...

Did I make any fashion choices to be... No, I think fashion choices. I mean, I dyed my hair green once. Did you do anything cringeworthy aside from... What do you do for approval aside from the hardship? You know, make a duo with my best friend and sell a million records. Okay, we get it, Jordan. You were always cool. Fine, okay, whatever. That's not... Munya, Munya, don't be silly. Don't be silly. That is like, that is a sad reality that you have to live in that, again, duality.

from your point of view from the perception from a metric we can measure that's cool but I'm saying I've thrown myself into the into the spiky the spiky arms of like a crunching industry because I wanted to be the center of attention I want you know that's the only way I know how to communicate like here's something I did that's good tell me that's good so I can feel good about myself like that really and truly I know it's annoying to say because it's not like this idea that we're fed it's not the

best it's not the best it's not the best way to go about life some people who are famous don't feel like that i mean i don't know i don't know what you're how you feel about validation or being able to self-validate but you know the worst the worst time in my life creatively was after the second result kicks album this is before this happened in this book and we had had a great first album obviously when platinum which was like my life dream but obviously i didn't think about that i just wondered how i could get another platinum album which is ridiculous and

Second album did well by album standards, by original kick standards it didn't do as well. And because of that there was an added pressure. I promise you right now, the music I made in the four months after the label told me that we hadn't done as well as the first was the worst fucking music I've ever made in my life. And one day I'll send the music out just for Banner. Because it was me going, how do I make a hit?

Like, how do we claw? I didn't even want to be at Popperstein and suddenly I'm trying to maintain, I'm trying to fight against like fucking, I don't know, like random boy bands and shit. Like, I don't know what's going on. I'm trying to, I'm trying to compete and I'd lost myself entirely. You know what I mean? And, and, and it was, it's these, it's these feelings of loss that like I'm, I'm trying to, trying to compete with, you know. Was the book in any way sort of therapy in preparation for the return of Rizzlecakes perhaps? 100%.

The book is a point... The book, like, encapsulates the choices I had to make to get myself to a healthy space and meet Harley in this new world. This new world being, like, being an adult. Because it was, like, seven years, Harley's father, two children, and, like, I can't explain to you how incredible it's been to watch one of the people I love the most in the world just be an incredible dad in the wake of... You know, he has his own, you know, complex history. And...

I'm looking at boys and men in my own journey and I'm like, fuck, this is so beautiful that he's doing this. Meanwhile, I've gone sober, six years sober, you know, and I've made healthier choices. I've met an incredible woman and I'm feeling things I've never felt before. And then we've both turned to each other and been like, you want to make some alternative hip hop? And the market's pretty dry at the moment. I mean, there are these two lads got back together, Oasis. They're not real rascals. I don't know what they're on about.

He just says it all the time. But also, again, this is maybe a little... It sours the tone slightly, but in reality, I remember the worst way I tried to fit in was, you know, in the initial honeymoon stage with my ex, I remember the mad thing about that kind of connection where it's not particularly healthy, it's just this whirlwind of just codependency. I just... The things we're willing to accept about each other just don't match up, they don't line up. And I would just...

mold and shift myself in order to be a palette of like a version that would be accepted that would be validated by that you know like my outlook on relationships and life at that time was massively different to to us but and yet i wasn't i didn't have the wherewithal to be like okay well maybe you know this isn't the best idea because i i you know because i wanted to be accepted so desperately by a person you know this episode is sponsored by net suite

What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get ten answers. Inflations up or down, rates will rise or fall. Can someone please just invent a crystal ball? Well, until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle. The number one cloud ERP brings accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid platform.

With one unified business management suite, there's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data.

If I had needed this product, it's what I'd use. NetSuite by Oracle is just a really smart tool for businesses looking to make proactive moves and make the best out of future opportunities. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities.

And speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com. This guide is free to you at netsuite.com. That's netsuite.com.

You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called AutoQuote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

This episode is brought to you by GlobalX. Since 2008, GlobalX ETFs has been committed to empowering investors with unexplored intelligence solutions. GlobalX specializes in exchange-traded funds that offer exposure to the artificial intelligence ecosystem, including themes like data centers, robotics, semiconductors, and cloud computing. To learn more about GlobalX's entire suite of ETFs, from covered calls, fixed income, emerging markets, and more, visit globalxetfs.com.

So much of your perception at times feels like it's hard to know, you know, who is thinking, whether it's the drugs thinking for you in certain parts of the book. There's this one chapter where you describe, I forget what the name of the drug was, but it took you to like a different dimension. What was it called? DMT. DMT? What did you say? I thought you said Dimson. I was worried there for a second. Hey, listen, you can never be sure.

DMT. I couldn't tell you the scientific... Well, it's an acronym, but I can't.

What I wanted to ask you was like, obviously, you know, drugs are part of your story and, you know, some people believe everything happened for a reason and somehow you ended up here with all of the experiences you took. Yeah. We always talk about the negative effects of drugs and, you know, we're not condemning it here on stage, but I also wonder whether because of some of those experiences you described, where you literally went into another galaxy. Yeah, but DMT is not a drug, sorry. Okay. Well, uh, whatever, Dimson. Um,

Did you ever feel like, were there ever things you learnt from being on drugs, from going to those recesses of the human mind? All right, so we're going to have to split this because the drugs I'm talking to are predominantly the drugs, is alcohol and cocaine.

Like DMT in my eyes is a medicine, right? Again, disclaimer, I am not qualified to talk about DMT or like promote its use, but I would be disingenuous to say that I consider it a drug. And also for me to think of it as like a negative thing. I was fucking lucky to be introduced to a guy who was literally like a masseuse and part-time shaman, right?

he lived in north london like oh yeah i know the guy he's a good lad yeah yeah honestly it's as wild as it sounds and and like my experience with that medicine is out of this world and we hear about it listen it's being studied i can't remember what university is they're doing such great work with psychedelics and psilocybin and understanding mushroom use therapeutically it's a fantastic antidepressant it's an anti-anxiety there's another medicine called 5-meo-dmt you can look this up it's also something i did but not during this

book time it's the venom of a cane toad in Mexico called Bufo Alvarez I think again you hear about this this lick the toad thing it's like an echo of the reality obviously don't lick toads too late but

Then I was here. But there's a scientific paper that was done. I think it was 84 people did the study. It was hard because of the legislation. Varying mental states, right? One inhalation of 5-MeO-DMT on 84 people of varying mental states had a 100% success rate for the reduction of psychopathological symptoms,

within a month, regardless of the trip. So someone had a bad trip, good trip, didn't matter. If they inhaled this and went and just allowed it to take its course, they instantly fell within the month, less anxious, less depressed. And this is just stuff that's in nature. This is ancient teaching that's gone for time. And listen, I just really, I want to learn more about it. I think it's incredible. I think everybody doing the work in that space knows how powerful that stuff is. Cocaine is fucking expensive.

shit after 20 minutes and in London they did a test of all the cocaine in London I said was on paper the purest they found was 22% so it's like we're sniffing Benadryl rat poison talcum powder like what the fuck is happening? Lemsip definitely yeah and and

I wished. But, you know, we have a very wild culture. I said this recently, you know, we talk about, I heard on the radio talking about stop and searches. Fucking boys living on suburbs with a bit of weed getting stopped. If they're really serious about stop and searches, they'd go into fucking Soho and turn people over in a suit. They'd find about 75 grams of cocaine every night. Is that a clap? Oh, yeah. And they would have found me in 2015. Just to say, when they revoke your Soho House membership, I'll have that. Yeah, yeah.

It's already cancelled, my friend. Just don't need to go there anymore.

But Jordan, I guess like, what do you think? Coke and alcohol, I think are damaging for me personally. I'm six years sober. I really do believe that alcohol is a piece of shit. I understand that everybody engages it in different ways. People don't have like a bad use of it. Some people can do it casually and they feel okay and they can deal with the repercussions. But the whole industry, like the damaging effect it has on us as a society, the fact that it is the gateway drug. Listen, no one would be doing coke if they weren't drunk.

Who do you know is like, let me start with a line of coke. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Everyone's mashed up at a wedding being like, let's do a fucking line so I can sober up and get drunk again. Like, what's going on?

So anyway, I don't want to shame anyone because everyone comes to that journey at different times. And it is really popular in London and England. But I don't think that it's, for me, it would ruin every single intimate relationship that I was in. So that's why I stopped. Okay, but the DMT stuff you mentioned, like when you describe it in the book, I went to a different planet just reading the description. Yes. So as a deep thinker, what I'm asking is, like in that space, did you learn anything about the human condition? Because most of us probably aren't going to do it.

It was fucking wild, bro. Talk to me. So listen, this is the thing about DMT. I can't explain it. There's nothing that I'd experienced in life normally. Like in everyday life, since the moment I was born, nothing ever, ever I've ever seen, felt, heard, smelled, tasted, anything could have prepared me for what I experienced. And the thing is, let me just pull

pull this in and rein it in right every every time i engage with this stuff it's with a pinch of salt right i really try and remain grounded i don't want to think that something's going to fix me or cure me or like you know oh we we need to be in another dimension so we can communicate with aliens it's none of that right it's i smoked this tree bark and went to this infinite turquoise right where i left my body and i was in a suspended state of bliss even if that has a chemical reaction in my brain why is that not being studied every day

Like I literally was, I left, I breathed out. I breathed out. So the fourth time I tried it, right? I had to surrender to the experience. I breathed out and I left my physical body, which is a terrifying feeling until it's not a feeling because I'm not me. I'm just in, I'm in everything. All the kind of silly hippie stuff you hear, it's what I felt. I was connected to a complete singularity and I was just experiencing unbelievable joy and time didn't exist. And then I've come back

And I started laughing. And part-time masseuse was like, that's the cosmic giggle there. What is a cosmic giggle? Well, firstly, he knew I'd gone there because on the other three attempts, I hadn't quite gone there because I was fighting it because, I don't know, it's just, it's not that normal to leave your fucking body and die after smoking a fucking tree.

So I'd fight it and come back like seven, eight minutes into the trip. By this time, because I smoked more and I'd let go, I got to the point where I went, this is normally when I come back into my body. And then I saw, I was just so mad. I was separate to the thought. And the second I was separate to the thought, I was gone. So anyway, I've come back 15 minutes later and masseuse is like, yeah. And he went cosmic giggle because it's me, it's the body just dealing with the fact that like, what is this?

Like, what is this? Why do I care so much about, you know, I came out of that experience being like, why am I arguing with my mate about like something that happened with their partner? Like, you know what I mean? Like, why? These are just nothingness. These divisions that existed between me and people felt like nothing. And, and then you could fall into real YouTube rabbit holes about like, why is mushrooms illegal? Yeah.

why are these psychedelic experiences illegal why do we not get taught about this stuff because really it breeds unity yeah all it took was two months of me being stuck in London traffic and I was fucking fuming again

You have to integrate the experience. You're encouraged to do yoga and breathe and embody it. But I still was like 20, mid-20s. I was off my tits. I didn't know what was going on. I lasted about two months of peace and then I was fuming again. Well, that is my favorite chapter. And I think you really took me there. So I'm excited for people to read that. I think a lot of people with addiction will read this book.

yeah and can i say one thing about that sorry with the five meo dmt is used to treat heroin addicts this is another thing if you're in the south america it is one of the most effective ways i've seen of people becoming over which is the hardest addiction to overcome opiates so that's why it's not a drug it's medicine but we just don't know much about it so carry on for sure get it in boots asap this isn't a lie that

No, but you guys know what I mean, right? I don't know. Yeah, 100%. No, just because it's like, here's a tough subject to talk about because, again, I'm not a fucking shaman. I'm not here like, you know, and come to my retreat in Peru. But I do believe it's important for us to know there's more out there. You know what I mean? And it is by design what we're told is considered a drug. I mean, ADHD medication is speed, mate. It's meth. Yeah. It's methylphenidate. It's just the government sells it to me.

Sorry, I interrupted you. Yeah, I think a lot of people with addiction will read this book and I feel like some of them will get to the end and think, damn, this guy, he fought addiction and won.

But I think it's probably important to say, I don't know if that's true, but I suppose addiction is a lifelong thing. Yes, it is. And I wonder whether there are ever moments, even now, that you feel close to it at any time. A hundred percent. Oh, my God. So my friend is... I've got one friend in recovery. I couldn't go to recovery. So, again, recovery is AA, NA, you know, the 12 steps. It's a beautiful opportunity for people to recover in community. And you have chips. However...

Sorry, don't eat chips. You're given chips per every day, as in to say one day surprised you, two days surprised you. I could never do it because of my beliefs around mushrooms and, to be honest, weed when I was first sober because I just don't believe things from the earth are the same. But psychoactive is one of the rules. Fair enough. So I just speak to my friends in recovery who were going through the steps and he said that addiction was described to him as having six bins with five lids open.

So the whole thing with addiction is it's like a game almost where you put all your energy into putting the lid on one bin and you do leave one free. You just have to try and pick the best bin. For example, like...

I had moments during this book process, you know, it was like, there was chapters I wrote which were really tough to relive and like, I was reliving memories and I was aware of a previous version of myself. There have been times since the proof even when we've had to go through approvals and there have been tough decisions made and then the fear of just fucking releasing the book. I will, you know, I'll find myself stuffing my face with croissants. But, it's thinking like, ah,

It could be worse. It could be worse. And, you know, I wouldn't say, okay, I'm not addicted to croissants, but I was spiraling. I was spiraling and my nearest outlets were that. I don't even smoke cigarettes anymore, bro. And it's like that. So when I'm like grabbing things, I just look at it and go, even if I've developed an unhealthy reliance on it, if it's not damaging people in my life, I can accept it, you know? If I play Call of Duty for an extra hour, like, okay,

in the scheme of things like i can i'll take it you know i mean if i like if i obsess over something like that so yes i am an addict i'll always be an addict i have to watch it in my relationship all the time i'm naturally codependent i have to make realize that i am not the same body as my partner i'm not that person's full autonomous decisions you know same with my mom same with my dad's like i i have these egoic codependencies are desperate to reconnect constantly

It's my adult responsibility to be like, no, you know, we are separate beings. Things are okay. I'm okay. And I can exist outside of that. But the desire is always there.

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. ShopPay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha-ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit Shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. Run a restaurant and you learn pretty quick. The sound of a crisp fry starts way before the first bite.

As delivery into go keeps business booming, McCain's Sure Crisp fries keep orders crispy. Hey, delivery. After the trip, the crispiness comes through. McCain's Sure Crisp fries. Go the distance. See how far our fries can take your business at surecrisp.com slash delivery. And we're going to talk about, you know, the love and sort of relationship side and the implications from that book. A lot of the intimacy in the book is quite intense, of course. Sure seem I was cut out. Yeah.

But I think there's often a very sweet and naive side to intimacy. You know, that starts from when we're young men, which is the first kiss. I don't think I know this about you. Do you remember your first kiss? Mine was a nightmare, bar swap. Was it? Go on. No, you go first. No, you go first. This is a night with Jordan Stevens. That was like my first kiss. Okay. You go first. Are we recreating it? No, no, it's right. The story, Jordan, the story. So, me and you were in Zimbabwe. Yeah.

I told a joke, you cosmic giggles. Munya, everybody. Fuck's sake. Who's kiss? I want to know. I kissed someone also called Jordan. A girl called Jordan. Just say it. I kissed a girl called Jordan around the back of the school bins. And there were six of them, but only five of them had lids, isn't it? So good. Yeah, so we got in a one that didn't have a lid on.

Nah, it was. And it was really rushed. The thing is, the notable part of the first kiss isn't necessarily who or where it was. It was how old I was. How old were you? How old am I now? So it was last week. Mine was during Spider-Man 3. And the crucial error with that was... Are you serious? Are you being serious right now? Yeah, yeah. In the cinema, Spider-Man 3, scheduled it on MSN. And the problem was, I really wanted to watch Spider-Man 3.

Dude. So it was sort of the mouth was here, but the eyes were here. So yeah, arguably one of the best. I had to wait for the green goblin to pop up, not a euphemism, and then it happened. But it was terrible. But I felt so much pressure as a dude to get that right.

And, you know, I feel like this is stuff that you touch on all the time about, you know... You've even stopped using the term toxic masculinity, I read. I personally have, yeah. Talk to me about that a little bit, because I'm really interested in that. Oh, just because, I mean, we know what the term means... Well, sorry, I can't speak on behalf of other people. I think there is an understanding of what the term means, which is, you know, it's separate to masculinity. It is a toxic version of masculinity, and it's expressed in this macho culture. And...

and when i first i used toxic masculinity as a phrase years ago during me too which is the garden article that i wrote and then back then i felt like there was a decent handle on that term because me too was happening there was this kind of like real what's the word purge like a really good purge you know there was like this this i don't know how everyone else felt but there was at the

peak of it like this people were like fuck yeah maybe you know me included like this is fucked like what can we do to change things like yeah this is toxic let's not do this however recently obviously it's very important to me that I know I know the space I'm discussing when I write something like this so I wanted to know where young boys were at where men were at

I've spoken at Women of the World Festival for like the last maybe five years, six years. And I love it. I'm like, I would recommend men to go to that. If I could force men to go to that festival, I would. You get to see this incredible plethora of incredible women who are just discussing the female experience, which I just wish we did more as men and interrogate the experience, you know, critique it, you know, lift people, shine on, you know, put people to the forefront who are doing positive things.

Every single time I talk at this festival, the comments I get afterwards are from teachers or mothers saying...

I'm worried about my boys or I look after a class full of boys what can I do every year for five years yeah in those in that year in those in that time all that's happened is the manosphere and what we call the red pill community most notably Andrew Tate have like come further to the forefront so I'm just sitting there going how do we make different choices so those kind of people aren't

elevated because Andrew takes a joke we know he's anyone part of a brain knows he's a fucking joke I mean he shouldn't be taken as a joke but he is a ridiculous human being he was just a desperate retention piece of shit right but like the thing that we need to focus on is why why are people why are boys finding solace in something that toxic so I'm thinking to myself well

I just want boys to feel good in themselves. I want young men and boys to feel beautiful and wonderful and proud of the fact that they're boys, you know? And that's why I think these fuckers are grabbing attention because they're just going, it's okay if you're a boy or it's okay if you're a man. Like, literally, that's simple. Like, the advice that people will fight you with on entertainment is like, well, he says we should go to the gym. Like, what?

Do you know what I mean? He says we should, you know, he says that, you know, you can fight if you want or, you know, you can, it's just so, such like the bare minimum of like existence as a boy. But so we need to do better. So like, I worry that something like toxic masculinity is becoming meshed with masculinity now. And I don't want any boys to ever feel like they're just waiting to become toxic or their very being is toxic. That scares me. So no, I'd rather say hyper-masculinity. But the thing is,

This isn't to separate that conversation. Do you know what I mean? Like it is my responsibility. It's our responsibility as men in our culture, in our community to, like I say, interrogate the experience. We tell people that these aren't the men to follow. These men are not projecting a life of harmony and love, right? Like we have to do that. I would never want this to be a thing of like the focus being on the fucking word to describe these dickheads.

I'm just saying that like my outlook and what I think is the best way to move forward is to just encourage boys to have a real healthy relationship with themselves because then they, I believe they will make decisions from a place of a desire for love rather than a lack of it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, massively.

During a phase where you were being toxic in the book, one of the factors you attribute to that is actually time. Yeah. Now, that's so interesting to me because if you ask anyone in this room, I think most people in this room, we all want more time. We all assume if we had more time, we would be happier. Yeah, I know. We'd be more successful. So why do you sort of, why did you put that at the epicenter of the problem at many points in the book? Because, I think because of, again, the expectations of our,

Wait, let me just put it back to me. And to clarify as well, in the book, you basically say you were a young guy with too much time. Yeah, too much time. Time and money. Yes, because I believe that my experience of this culture we live in, the system, is it's all about productivity, movement, working, working, working, da-da-da-da-da-da, and being alone with the self.

Just being alone with self and feeling what you're feeling is a scary experience because we literally are never taught about it. Never in life. Like we go through eight, like what is, I don't know how many years of formal education is six, eight, I don't know, years and years learning about, oh, well, some things are important, but we learn about stuff. But one hour a week, I don't know if it's changed like PSC, but there was some lessons that you like vaguely touch on that. But it's like knowing how you're feeling, right?

Do you know what I mean? Like, okay, I had time and money because Rizzle Kicks had allowed me that. I didn't have to be working eight hours, nine hours a day every single day to survive. But I was experiencing a heartbreak that I had put to the side because I was working so much. And I'm sat there just experiencing all of it. I'm not taking, I'm not drinking. I'm not doing drugs. I'm just feeling like six or seven years worth of grief at once.

Yeah, that's fucking scary. And a lot of people who just want to cope, that's the kind of thing they'll say. Keep yourself busy. That's one thing. People are up there. They keep yourself busy. Get drunk. I was literally told by men. Two men told me, get drunk, fuck around.

To deal with the heartbreak. Which, listen, it works in the short term. The same thing will fucking happen again. It's just delaying the inevitable, you know? This is something I learned in the bridge, which I talk about an emotional trauma retreat I went on, which was the beautiful privilege that money allowed me and time allowed me was to go to workshops. Guys, I went to a boyfriend workshop course.

I had to learn how to be in a relationship. Like I literally was like, okay, how do I be a good person in a relationship? And I fucking learned. You couldn't learn. It's like we, this is the thing we all go through. Every single person in this room has to go through an intimate experience of love and connection. And where are we learning it? How do we know what the fuck to do? It affects all of us.

so like it sounds funny oh he went to a workshop on relationships why are we not all at relationship workshops because in school i'm thinking wouldn't that make more sense like this is why this person might be feeling like this this is why you might be feeling like this do you know i mean so that's what i mean by time attacking me is it's like in a world where everybody's working and moving and never never never never i was sat there smoking 100 fags a day being like this is unbelievably painful and no one has told me what the fuck happens which is why i wrote the book

It's like so much time, so few valuable lessons to fill it with in some instances. It's like, you know, the biggest lesson for me personally with pain, and I wonder if this differs slightly between men and women, just literally, like biologically, because I feel like pain is an inherent female experience, something that women have to constantly, I want to say battle, like come to terms with, you know what I mean? The hormonal imbalances that go through a woman's body are just like, we can't even compute, I don't think, as men.

But like, we do obviously still have to process and feel pain as men. But I think we think we can fix it. This is just, I'm generalizing for the sake of this. This is, this was ultimately my experience. I felt like I could fix it. Like, how do I, what do I do? Who do I pay? Like, who do I, what can I buy to eat that in a month is gone? It can't.

It is. And I worry if that's why pain can hit, especially men with certain statistics that we want to get into. I wonder if that's why, because you can't fix it and no one tells you that it fades. No one tells you that it fades and flashes and you just got to wait. You got to ride the flashes and then it does go.

I didn't know, man. I didn't know any of that, you know? So we've got about two more questions from me before we throw to our audience. One of the questions of one of the heroes of the book I have to bring up now is Cisco. The thong song specifically. I actually couldn't put the lyrics in so we had to pay for it. Which you, more or less to paraphrase, quote that Cisco helped you unleash the dragon, right? Do I say that? Yeah, you do say that. I feel like you said that. Pretty much.

How much of the story to give away? Basically, a performance involving Cisco is almost like a gateway to you realising you're an entertainer. Cisco is my gateway drug, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I found that really cool reading because it's funny how adults always say, you know, music influences young men, and it does. But for you, it influenced you positively. I guess, yeah, I just want to imagine, young Jordan, how much music did influence you. Because I remember...

sat at home, I would memorise all the lyrics to 50 Cent by just jumping back in the YouTube video so that when it came on at the school prom, I was the guy who knew all the words. Obviously, I grew up in Norwich, so no one even knew what 50 Cent was. Everyone knows 50 Cent. Everyone was like, why is this man speaking in tongues in the middle of prom? But yeah, how important was music to you and Jordan? Send him back. All right, so I'll have rather crikey.

Did a little DM tree trip there, didn't you? Into the body of a conservative. Yeah, I mean, look, I spend a lot of the book dissecting my childhood, you know, interrogating my mum and my dad, my relationships between them, you know, cutting ties, severing loyalties. You know, I'm really going for it because I just really want people to have a little bit more of an understanding of

you know, different choices that can be made. But it would be wonderful to honour many of the beautiful times I had in my childhood and like a massive part of that for me was music, you know, from my mum and my dad. My dad is an incredible musician. Also didn't teach me the guitar so actually fucking for that, that was actually really annoying.

Because, like, why do I not know the guitar? But he's an incredible musician and, you know, I would go to his studio every now and again and he would be... He was looking after his studio in Fulham and he would have all these cool bands in and he was just like, you know, I just was like, whoa, music. And my mum, she would write these song lyrics and they'd be scattered all over the living room floor and I would pick up these lyrics and I'd look at them and I can still... I mean, my mum has these incredible demos which one day I'll maybe secretly release or something, but...

I know every lyric to every song that my mum recorded when I was a boy. And I was in the 90s and she was ahead of her time, shout out.

And so, you know, music naturally became like a form of escape for me. I say that to also say, for whatever reason, in spite of my quite vast musical knowledge because of my mum's CD collection, which went from literally Gangstar to Nirvana to Beck to Sneaker Pimps to, you know, my mum was the first person to show me Dizzy Rascal when I was in my teens. First person to show me Plan B. My mum also found Royal Blood.

for real like she went to a she didn't find them obviously but she she went to a gig at the prince albert and brian which is a tiny venue and texted me afterwards like hey you should check these guys out they're called royal blood and then like a year later they were fucking astronomical so she's got an incredible taste in music i'm not sure my mom played me cisco but i did decide that i wanted to be him when i was seven and so i dyed my afro silver which was obviously gray

And yeah, I was looking like Trevor McDonald out there, the talent show for real. Literally. And I was in the Brent local, Brent talent competition, you know, and I mean, that's where to, yeah, that's where to debut, isn't it? That's where to find it, yeah. And I was lip syncing Thong Song. I had no fucking idea what he was talking about.

I did help you unleash the dragon, though. So I mean, it's a full circle. My mum pushed me on stage, not literally, but I mean, like she encouraged me to go and she said I really enjoy it. And long story short, the curtains shut and I came back out of the curtains and started clapping the crowd. So the dragon had been unleashed. Yeah. And, you know, it is validating. It's beautiful being in front of crowds and audiences. It's just, you know, finding healthy ways to to integrate that with the everyday being, you know. Have your parents read the book? Yeah. And?

uh look um since making like slightly better choices in my life i have a much better relationship with my mom and dad i love them both a lot they've both been through a lot individually and one thing i hope people get from the book is you know like i'm saying it's morally ambiguous it's not about perfection or some self-help shit it's like it's

I know that of my mum and dad. I know they've gone through tough times. They've done the absolute best they can with what they have, like without a doubt. Do you know what I mean? And like my mum put all her love into me being a creative child. You have to understand this. Okay, let me give you an example of how fucked life can be, right? My mum pretty much selflessly devoted herself in my childhood to just make me sure that I believed in myself creatively. She devoted her whole self and anyone who knows I can attest to that, right?

when I became an adult what was one of the most difficult things for me to deal with was the fact that she didn't look after herself do you understand how complex that is that I've grown up as a boy I needed to see her looking after herself but other than that she devoted herself to me do you know what I'm saying but how are we supposed to know that shit

I sat down with my mum during some of the hardest bits in the book. I sat with her and read her the parts. And I said what you said in the beginning. I went, look, I want to, like, be as raw as possible so we can be part of, like, this, some thing shifting. If, you know, that's the hope. We have to dream that. And my mum was on board because she, again, she is, like, an incredibly devoted, loyal mother who, you know, deserves the world, you know? And I just, the issue was I wanted to be, make her happy as a boy and that wasn't my responsibility. Oh. APPLAUSE

There she is. So, yeah. So, my mum read it, obviously. She's going to say, yes.

Happy about it. And my dad read it and, you know, my dad gave me wicked feedback too. You know, it's tough, but it's tough because these are people's lives and there's some things I can't say because it's not my story. I just have to talk about my engagement with it. But I believe that I've been fair and I believe that people can understand it's my flawed, like, perception of a situation and it's an attempt to...

untangle some wires and just look at them and discuss i'm not set on any of this you know people want to have a suggestion you know feedback on it i'm here to talk about it you know well bro i just think that how raw and honest you were through the entire book is what makes it you you know that's how i know you i think that's in some ways to me what it truly means to be a man is just to just to be honest and to to be human and so i think you really smashed out of the park

My last question for you is, I think it was in maybe the Guardian interview, you used the phrase something like layers of intergenerational emotional trauma or something like that and sort of chipping away at it. Yeah. It sort of reminded me of like a mortgage payment almost. So I guess what I wanted to ask was how, to end off, how far are you into paying that debt and how are you going to try and minimize that for future Jordans if there ever are future Jordans?

Right, listen. I'm going to say it straight up. I'm broody as fuck. Your mum? No, no. Who's my mum sat next to, you prick? Trevor McDonald. I'm super broody. I really desperately, I say desperately, I feel like I'm prepared to be a dad. But my God, Munya, the one thing that I know about being a dad at now is I don't know shit.

Like I won't be ready. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm not going to be perfect. There's no way of doing that. Right. All I can do right now is make sure I look after myself and I make sure that I keep myself in a decent space as decent space as possible. And that includes allowing myself to be a fucking human being and make mistakes. I know that.

And I've also had... This is another thing. I've got men around me who are currently being great fathers. I'm watching it happen in real time. You know what I mean? I will be tapped into a community of people who are breaking generational traumas. And this is generational trauma that is as a result of systems outside of these people's control. Do you know what I mean? There's so much pressure on people nowadays. So much pressure. Time is barely there. I don't want to get into a political rant about things, but there's a lot of pressure. And I understand that. I have deep empathy. So...

Yeah, I want to be a good dad and I know that I'm not going to be a perfect dad and that should be good as long as the kids support Arsenal. Are we going to clap for that? We're in North London, mate. Let's give it up for Jordan one time because, as ever... Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by myself, Connor Boyle, with production and editing by Mark Roberts and Bea Duncan.

Experience holiday cheer at Tanger Outlets with savings up to 70% off your favorite brands. From fragrances to accessories and the latest styles.

Discover the best gifts for everyone on your list. Save big at Nike Factory Store, Michael Kors, Under Armour, Coach, Polo Ralph Lauren, Kate Spade New York, and so many more. Unwrap the best at Tanger Outlets. Hundreds of brands, endless gifting options. Plan your trip at Tanger.com.

Experience holiday cheer at Tanger Outlets with savings up to 70% off your favorite brands. From fragrances to accessories and the latest styles.

Discover the best gifts for everyone on your list. Save big at Nike Factory Store, Michael Kors, Under Armour, Coach, Paula Ralph Lauren, Kate Spade New York, and so many more. Unwrap the best at Tanger Outlets. Hundreds of brands, endless gifting options. Plan your trip at Tanger.com.

Experience holiday cheer at Tanger Outlets with savings up to 70% off your favorite brands. From fragrances to accessories and the latest styles.

Discover the best gifts for everyone on your list. Save big at Nike Factory Store, Michael Kors, Under Armour, Coach, Polo Ralph Lauren, Kate Spade New York, and so many more. Unwrap the best at Tanger Outlets. Hundreds of brands, endless gifting options. Plan your trip at Tanger.com.

This holiday season, surprise everyone on your list with the best gifts. Tickets to see their favorite artists live. Choose from thousands of concerts and comedy shows, including Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Matt Matthews, Metallica, Thomas Rhett, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Sarah Silverman, and so many more. Share a memory together.

or give a gift they'll never forget. Find the most exciting gift for every fan at LiveNation.com slash gifts. That's LiveNation.com slash gifts.