How to Have the Manners and Charm of a Proper English Gentleman
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Turn your big business idea into reality with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash manliness. That's shopify.com slash manliness. If you're heading out on the open road this summer for some road trips, I've put together a special AOM playlist to ride shotgun with you. The theme, summertime and road trips. We got episodes on mastering the grill,

building the perfect burger, planning epic road trips, exploring America's national parks, and even an episode on the history of road trips in America. These episodes are going to upgrade your summer, also help you become the most interesting guy at your next cookout with some conversation fodder. If you want to check this playlist out, go to aom.is slash road trip. That's aom.is slash road trip. Drive smart, eat well, enjoy the summer. Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

The British just seem like a classier bunch. Part of it is that winning accent, but it's also because English culture has long been steeped in the tradition of learning and practicing etiquette. Here to share some of the essentials of modern etiquette that are important no matter which side of the pond you live on is William Hanson, a British etiquette expert and the author of Just Good Manners. William shares the difference between manners and etiquette and why young people are especially interested in both.

He then takes us through how to introduce yourself and others, the history behind the no elbows on the table mantra, the rules of small talk, some overlooked guidelines for table manners, how to enter a conversational circle at a party, considerations for elevator etiquette, and much more. Whether you're dining at a fancy restaurant or just want to navigate social situations with more confidence, William's insights will help you present yourself with a nosh of a proper English gentleman. After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash etiquette. ♪

All right, William Hanson, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me. So you are a professional etiquette teacher. How did you become an etiquette teacher?

Well, it wasn't something I necessarily sort of woke up one day and thought, right, that's it. I'm going to become an etiquette teacher. It wasn't a profession I was even aware really existed. As a child growing up, I wanted to either be the Archbishop of Canterbury, for whatever reason, or a spy or a newsreader. That's the trajectory I was heading in, I had decided. But then my grandmother gave me this book of etiquette for

Christmas when I was 12. And sort of after a few sort of, have I read any type questions? I thought, well, I bet I just better read a bit and then I can tell her I've read it. And it was actually very interesting and very funny. And I bought more books on the subject. And then when I was

16, 17 at my school, they came up to me and said, oh, we're looking for someone to teach the younger years how to set a table. Do you think you could do that? And I said, well, when do you want me to do it? And they said, oh, Tuesday afternoons. And I said, oh, instead of playing sport? They said, yes. So I didn't need to be asked twice, really. And that's how the teaching side of things started.

And so you got a new book out called Just Good Manners, where you take Americans and just anybody through the ins and outs of British etiquette. And we're going to dig into that because I think it's applicable to whatever country you live in. But I thought it was really interesting. You talk about the history of etiquette education in the United Kingdom. Can you tell us a bit about that? Because I didn't know about this.

Yes, I think, you know, Britain has always, or England even, we should say before it sort of became Britain, has always sort of led the way in education, in manners and etiquette and civility. Swiss finishing schools as well were very popular and they basically did the same thing, but they just had the mountains for the skiing. That's what they could offer that we in Britain couldn't.

But, you know, even going back to sort of the Dickensian England, not that long ago in the grand scheme of things, but men would sort of go on what was called the Grand Tour around Europe.

just before they settled down. And whilst that was happening, the ladies were being finished. And you would have sort of characters like Dickens portrays one in Little Dorrit called Mrs. General, who is there sort of taking these group of sisters under her wing, finishing them and telling them sort of how to behave and what was expected of them. So this sort of education has always existed, certainly in the last 300 years or so. Okay.

And you're the director of one of like the last English etiquette schools, correct?

Yes. So sort of at the height of the 20th century, which is when these finishing schools, we still had presentation at court, which is when young girls would curtsy in front of the king and queen, as it were, before they were sort of eligible to be married, a completely outdated practice, and one that Queen Elizabeth sort of quite quickly, when she ascended the throne, knocked on the head because she thought it was ridiculous. But you had finishing schools such as Winkfield Place or Lucy Clayton. And Lucy Clayton actually in 2001 sort of

regenerated into the English Manor, which is the company I'm now very pleased to run and own. So at the beginning of the book, you make a distinction between manners and etiquette. And I've seen this distinction before, but what do you think is the difference between etiquette and manners? I would say manners are the top-line fundamental requirement for being a human being, wherever you are in the world. Treat people with civility, charm, grace, decorum, respect,

How we do that is by using a set of rules. Most of the time, the etiquette is correct. Sometimes it isn't. We actually have to break the rule of etiquette. But etiquette is, it can change from country to country. And what is considered polite in one country can be very different and actually impolite in another. So you use the set of rules according to your environment.

Yeah, and a lot of people, when I see them make this distinction between manners and etiquette, manners is just sort of how you comport yourself with other people to make sure things go smoothly, etiquette are the specific rules. They often say, well, you know, manners are more important than etiquette. And you make the case, well, maybe not.

Yeah, I would say I think it is impossible to be a well-mannered person without knowing something about etiquette. You don't necessarily need to know that a dinner napkin at its largest is 26 inches, for example. I think you will be able to get through life without knowing that pearl of wisdom. But I

I would say following the rules of etiquette makes you a more well-mannered person. You can be a well-mannered person without knowing etiquette, but I think you can be an even more well-mannered person if you use the two. I think they work together. Yeah, I agree with that. Because I think what etiquette does, it gives you something concrete to do. Because oftentimes people just don't know what to do in certain situations. Like, I don't know, what am I supposed to do? Well, here, follow these rules. You can be well-mannered by following these simple rules.

Exactly. I don't know about you, Brett, but as a child, I liked to know what was expected of me. Because as a child, of course, we're all petrified, or most children are petrified of being told off or grounded or whatever the form of punishment is. And so we sort of want to know when we go to this person's house, what are we doing? What are we expected? How am I meant to behave at school, for example? We were given parameters and boundaries. And that's sort of all it is really,

in adult life. I think adults thrive with parameters and boundaries and knowing what is expected of them because we all want to get it right. And we've bizarrely got to a point in life where so many people will say, oh, I'd rather

who knows etiquette anymore? And actually what they're doing rather badly is masking the fact that they don't know the rules themselves. And so they are sort of saying it doesn't matter because actually they don't know and they don't want to admit their sort of blissful ignorance. It's something I've noticed. And I think you noticed this as well with your career because I think you're really popular on TikTok. I feel like a lot of young people crave that knowledge of etiquette because they want to know

how to act in the world with other people in a way that's well-mannered and smooth. Yes, absolutely. I think there are so many sort of ways now for people to be sort of

rightly so in some instances, called out or flagged down for bad behavior. And so younger generations who have grown up knowing that actually they can't really be an awful human being and get away with it are more conscious of it. One of my biggest demographics on my social media videos is Gen Z. And actually when the Gen Z people come and sort of say hi to me in the street, if they pass me, whether it's in London or New York or wherever, they're so nice and so...

and polite and cautious about coming up to me, whereas some millennial followers that I have, and I am a millennial myself, will sort of charge up to me and almost say,

and demand immediately without sort of being conscious that I may not be working, I might be out in a social capacity and demand that I do a photograph with them. I don't mind doing a photograph, but sort of ask me nicely. So Gen Z get a bit of a bad rap, but actually from what I've seen, I think it's quite good that they are interested in how to behave and just sort of

being aware of how their actions affect other people, which is really all it is. So let's dig in to some of the rules of etiquette that you highlight in your book that can help us guide our social interactions. I think a lot of it is just

primarily about interacting with other people. Yes. And making those interactions as smooth and as comfortable and as pleasant as possible. Let's start off with introductions. What's the best way to introduce yourself? Well, I think this, when I was writing Jessica Manners, this was one of the things that I found sort of faintly interesting was that in the etiquette books, the Emily Post original edition from the 1920s, for example, there is nothing about introducing yourself because it used to be the etiquette that it was incredibly taboo to introduce yourself.

But there was lots of advice about introducing other people. Whereas now etiquette books, just good manners aside, will have information about how to introduce yourself, but nothing about introducing other people. And certainly a lot of Brits or people that have spent too much time in Britain and sort of picked up some bad British habits when they go to introduce themselves to someone, whether it's on the street or at a cocktail party or whatever, apologize for introducing them.

themselves. Maybe that's because we in Britain are programmed to know that it's not really good form historically to introduce yourself, although absolutely fine now. But they'll say, oh, sorry to interrupt, or oh, sorry to come up to you today.

And actually, well, I don't know anything about you, but I have just, I do now know that you've just interrupted me and that you're apologizing. So already I've noticed that you're apologizing and you're interrupting me, whereas I may not have noticed actually. So just, I think something positive and upbeat. Hello, my name is William. Very lovely to meet you, for example, is all you need to do. And say your name clearly as well. It is so important to say your name, but so few people actually bother to say their names when they're introducing themselves. Yeah.

which is extraordinary behavior because otherwise I don't know what to call you.

Okay, so be positive, be upbeat, don't apologize, say your name clearly. You mentioned people don't know how to introduce other people. And I've noticed that as well. Whenever I'm interacting with individuals and let's say they're with their spouse or you're going over to a friend's house and their grandmother's there, no one knows how to introduce people to other people. So I end up usually just having to introduce myself. So what is the proper protocol on making introductions?

So it can get quite complicated. And actually, when I started teaching etiquette 18 years ago, this was the bit that I would in class dread coming to teach because it can be quite wordy. But what you don't need to do is you don't need to say both parties' names twice. So if you've got Bill and Ben, for example, you don't need to say, Bill, this is Ben, Ben, this is Bill. You don't need to reverse it. And the example I would give you

is to sort of show you why that is wrong, is if you take the head of state in any country, in Britain it would be the king, the president in America. Let's take the president, for example, whoever that president is. If I said, Mr. President, may I introduce Bill?

That is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I put the president first. I'm giving him the respect as head of state. But if I then switch it, Bill, this is the president. That second time I have elevated Bill and relegated the president,

which in a diplomatic context is completely the wrong thing to do. So you only need to say the most important person's name first. How you define who that most important person is, is up to you. And it depends on context. In a professional setting, the CEO of the company is probably going to be more important than the interns.

A client to a company is going to be more important than the CEO. Socially, you probably now would go on age rather than looking at gender. So granny being 85 is going to be sort of elevated above Annie, who's 18. Okay, that makes sense. And then you also talk about whenever you make an introduction to add some context to the introduction. Yes.

None of us really like making small talk, if we're completely honest. I mean, small talk with complete strangers, for some, is absolute purgatory. So you can make life easy for the two people that you are introducing by saying, Bill, this is Ben. Ben's just flown in from Sydney. And Bill, I believe, didn't your mother used to live in Australia? If you can find a link, that's perfect, because then they do have common ground. But if not, you just say,

Ben just flew in from Sydney, leave it at that. And then hopefully one of them goes, oh gosh, I've always wanted to go. And it just says something. But if you just say the names and do the introduction, people just stare at each other. Like, great, you've introduced me, but who are you? Yeah. We typically shake hands when meeting someone new. This is the art of manliness. We got to talk about the etiquette on handshaking. Yes.

I mean, handshaking, which of course, you know, slightly went out of fashion during the pandemic, but is thankfully now back. It's probably the only physical contact you will have with most people. And I think, and I don't know about you, Brett, you can tell so much about someone by the quality of the handshake. Do you judge someone? Of course. If I get the limp fish, it's an immediate like, yeah, I don't know, guy.

it's an ick to use a modern parlance. Already in the first couple of seconds whilst we're judging a new person, I've met them and it's a limp fish handshake, as you say, and it's unpleasant. Similarly, if it's a bone crusher, you think, wow, why are they having to overcompensate and come across as overly assertive?

So the handshake is so important. And I, again, in the book, when I was writing, I thought, well, actually, maybe, you know, maybe I'm being a bit harsh on people that have bad handshakes, because I can remember, I think my parents telling me how to shake a hand, aged five, maybe, roughly around age five, but then no parent, I mean, maybe there are parents out there that

sort of are the exceptions that prove the rule. No parent then revisits that handshaking lesson when their child is now 15. And actually the strength of their handshake is going to be very different

for what they were doing when they were five. You're sort of told what to do and then nobody revises it. And actually having a good handshake is often half the battle, particularly in business. No, I agree. Handshake is important. It's something I've taught my kids. And I like a good firm handshake from men and women alike. I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to that sort of thing. Oh, absolutely. And I would, again, one of the things I've enjoyed doing, writing the book, is sort of tracking where the change is happening.

have come in and what these changes are. And again, if you read the original Emily Post or books published in the 1920s, ladies didn't massively shake hands. The hostess might have shook hands with guests, but other than that, ladies didn't do it. Now, anyone of any gender, business or professional, everybody shakes hands. Everyone should take off their right glove if they're wearing gloves, so it's flesh to flesh. Obviously, if you're in absolute minus 40 degrees Celsius temperatures, fine.

fine you can keep your glove on there are always sort of caveats to it but yes a handshake is pretty so this is related introductions but this has happened to me a few times it's whenever you encounter someone you've met before but you can't remember their name you're not really acquaintances but you know of each other how do you make those what we call reintroductions to each other

Yes, I think a lot of people sort of can get quite offended that the other person hasn't remembered you, but actually, you know...

sometimes we aren't, we're the most memorable and interesting person in our own lives because we're there. We're the only person that is sort of the world expert on ourselves, but other people may not necessarily remember you like you remember them. So just say your name quickly. Hello, so lovely to see you again. It's William, of course. What have you been up to since I saw you at Brett's, for example?

just help them out rather than sort of expect them to remember every detail about you. Obviously, if they can remember everything about you, that's fantastic. Actually, a really simple trick I often do in restaurants or hotels I go to a lot is I just write down the staff's name in a note on my phone. And so when I'm going back in,

I can remember that Grant is the tall waiter with the ear piercing. And so when I go in again, I say, "Oh, hello, Grant. How are you?" And generally, you find you get a thousand times better service when you actually bother to learn their names. It also helps, I think, trains your brain to remember people's names better as well. I like that. That's a classy move. I'm going to start doing that. What happens if you forget someone's name? Any tips on navigating that?

Yeah, I mean, apologize and move on quite quickly. So Brett, if I called you Ben, for example, and you say, oh, no, it's Brett. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, Brett, I'd probably say using your correct name and then move on. But again, it's quite a British thing to make that into a drama and to overreact.

to over-apologize. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Oh, that happens all the time. And the more of an issue I make it, the more of an issue it becomes. So just sort of say sorry, say the correct name, make a mental note not to get it wrong again, and move on. Yeah, that's something I've learned after reading your book. British people like to apologize. Very apologetic. We do.

I mean, look, hey, it's better to over-apologize than not apologize at all. But it can go the other way as well. Let's talk about small talk. Any etiquette to small talk? Are there topics that are taboo that you definitely don't want to go there?

Yeah, I would say this is something that has not changed very recently. Sex, money, politics, health and religion still remain for small talk. And this is conversation with people you do not know well. I'm not saying when you're talking to very good friends. But with strangers, avoid sex, money, politics, health or religion.

to begin with, because you just don't know what people's opinions are, what makes them engage, what disengages them, what offends them. And it's so much better to sort of play it safe. And some cultures just

just don't get small talk. The Germans absolutely don't get it. The Dutch sort of get it, but aren't particularly good at it. But think about small talk as the slip road onto a major highway. If you didn't have that slip road and you were joining the conversational highway going at 70 miles an hour, you

you would crash. And so you need that slip road to just sort of build your speed up into a slightly more interesting conversation. That is the point of small talk. I'm not pretending it is fascinating, but it is needed in order to have a proper conversation with someone. Okay. For our American listeners, a slip road in England is what we call an on-ramp over here. And that's the metaphor I always use for small talk. Some people say they hate small talk and they just want to jump to the big talk.

But you've got to take the on-ramp of small talk to get up to speed into that deeper conversation. So what are your go-to topics for small talk? I mean, look, in Britain, we're obsessed with talking about the weather. I was being interviewed yesterday. It was a British journalist. We spent five minutes talking about the weather at the start of the interview. But in Britain, our weather, we often can have three or four seasons in a day. If you're in gorgeous California or you're in the Middle East, where the weather is sort of fairly consistent overall,

The weather's not going to be spoken about. But beyond the weather, I just will talk about the environment that you are in there and then. You're trying to find a shared experience or something in common with that environment.

person. And if you have nothing else in common, you don't sort of have lots of hobbies in common. What you do have is the room you're in. Gosh, what a beautiful ceiling. Aren't the band fantastic? Something upbeat and positive is what we want. Talk about the canapes. How do you know the host? That's safe and better small talk than, gosh, well, it's a lovely sunny day, isn't it? In America, we're obsessed with work.

So often work is a topic of small talk. Like, hey, what do you do? In Britain, that's apparently, that's frowned upon to talk about work and small talk. Yeah, well, I'll be honest, your American tendencies are sort of creeping in. And I think particularly younger generations are slightly more work focused and find it less taboo.

But people really shouldn't be defined by their jobs. I mean, I do speak as someone who's an etiquette coach, so I've got a slight vested interest in this and pushing my own personal agenda. But if I go to a party this evening, I'm going in my social capacity. Whether I'm a dentist, a tax lawyer, or an etiquette coach has got no bearing on whether my friend has invited me to that party. And as much as I love my job, I mean, I have no other talent, so I don't know what else I'd do. I don't want to talk about it.

all the time, actually. There's more to me than my job. And so certainly to begin with, and again, when you say to people you're an etiquette coach, people sort of either freeze or start panicking. I'd quite like to talk about something else. Thank you very much. Yeah. Or if you ask someone about their job, they hate their job. Oh, and then you'll say, oh God, I don't really care, really. Especially if you meet someone that, yeah, and they start moaning about their job and you think, well, I

I was just asking it to be polite. I don't really need a whole rundown. What do you do when you're engaging in small talk and let's say the conversation starts going into some of those taboo topics you mentioned earlier? Any way to navigate that deftly?

Well, I mean, hopefully, most of the conversation is listening and being able to pick up on what you're being given back. And if you're asking a question, especially if you think it's controversial and you're not getting much back from the other person, it is probably time to move on. But if often it's other people witnessing or listening into the conversation that...

will have to sort of step in and can see the car crash, to use another driving analogy, about to happen. And so, I mean, it's such a cliche, but it works, is just stepping in and going, well, what lovely weather we're having today, and saying it very pointedly. I've only ever had to do it once at a dinner I was hosting. And that should be a clue to the people that had started to get a bit heated, but also to the other guests. We need to move this on. Everyone needs to step in and help me here.

Let's say you're at a cocktail party, a mingling event where they're, and you're going there by yourself. You don't know anyone and there's already established little circles of conversation going on. How do you enter a conversational group with class and it's smoothly? This is hard to explain on an audio podcast, but generally you want to, first of all, before you actually move in, make sure there are what we call an open body language group.

And usually that means there's a great big gap for you that you can go and stand in. If there's no gap, don't try and approach them. And because it's, they've sort of subconsciously or consciously closed that gap off. And so you're not going to get much success, but really just basically if you, I mean, if you know somebody in that group, much easier, you just make eye contact with them and hope they bring you in. But if you don't know anyone in that group, it's a shallow, basically, I hate to say it. It's as shallow as,

picking the one that looks like you. So that could be you're tall and blonde, they're tall and blonde. It's a group of women and one man. Look at the male, for example, or man in a tie, man in a tie. Just anything that sort of, you will have most success joining a group if you basically pick the person who looks most like you, smile at them, make a really nice positive signal. If you get a smile back, you step forward and do your approach and would say, oh, hello, may I join? My name is William.

Again, don't say sorry to interrupt. If you don't get a smile back and they sort of look away or close the gap, you just move on and try and find someone else. That tip of looking for people that look like you, you talk about in the book, there was this, you went to a party where the invitation had ambiguous instructions on dress code. And it was either you could, it was a black tie and

Or like 1970s apparel. And like, so you, you know, you're the etiquette guy. You went black tie. Of course you're gonna go black tie. But there was like only three other guys that went black tie. You guys just ended up talking to each other the entire night.

We did, because again, it's shallow and people don't know many other people. They don't want to take risks. If you've got a group of mice, you've got a group of cats. Okay, the cats might want to play with the mice, but the mice don't want to play with the cats. And it's the same. So I didn't know there were two dress codes. I was someone's guest. I was going on secondhand information without having seen the invitation. I

I always ask to see The Invitation now after that drama. But yes, there were, you know, in a room full of 100 people, there were three of us in black tie, tuxedo. And it was quite boring after a while because no one else wanted to talk to us. And it's sort of playground stuff, but it does happen. I'm sure a lot of people have had this happen to them when they're at a party and they start talking to someone and this someone does not want to let go of you, but you want to go talk to other people.

How do you politely break away from someone who's talking your ear off? Well, ideally, you want to introduce them to someone else and pair them off. It's not great to leave someone standing on their own. If they've said something objectionable or you absolutely have to go because you're going to miss your flight or something, then fair enough. But try to pair them off with someone else. Brett, it's been so lovely talking to you. I've just seen someone over there I've got to go and get and speak to before they leave. Have you met Susan, however? No.

And I've sort of seen Susan floating around and I grab her as she comes past and go, Susan, may I introduce Brett? Brett has just flown in from Sydney. And Susan, I believe your mother is from Australia. I'll leave you two talking and off you go. So that's what you ideally want to do. But if there is no one, you're going to have to leave them standing on their own. But you can make it sound like you are the boar. So I would say something like that.

Well, Brett, look, I know I've monopolized so much of your time this evening, and I know there are lots of other people you want to go and talk to, but maybe we'll see each other in a few weeks' time at that fundraiser. Shake hands and off we go. We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

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Upfront payment of $45 for three-month five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and extra fees. See Mint Mobile for details. And now back to the show. So I think we've handled introductions. We've handled small talk. Let's talk about table manners. Let's start with this question. Why do the British have what seems like such complicated and fastidious rules of table etiquette?

Well, I would say, I mean, thankfully it's not the case anymore in Britain. We have such a wide and varied cuisine. But historically, our food was always a bit rubbish. And I think a lot of these rules might have been developed just to sort of slow down eating it. You didn't want to rush it because it wasn't very tasty. And so we came up with these sort of rules to have very small mouthfuls and small portions and...

We had a lot of alcohol with our food, different alcohol for each course. And also, you know, in Britain, we like a rule. We like structure. And I think British dining is the most complicated compared to European, which is a different thing from British dining, we should say. And that's not a Brexit thing. It's always been that way in sort of etiquette land. We've

we do like to overcomplicate things sometimes. And you recommend that people learn British etiquette because that'll basically cover your bases.

Yeah, and that's something I picked up from my great friend and colleague, Micah Meyer, who's the leading expert in America in etiquette. And she teaches British dining as the sort of the gold standard, because if you can do the top standard, you can easily do the bottom standard, whatever that one is. I guess it's like driving. I mean, I know it varies now, but if you learn to drive on a stick, you can drive an automatic. But if you learn just on an automatic, you can't drive on a stick. And so it's probably best to learn the hardest one. And then

And then you're covered for all bases. So I think most of us growing up heard the rule, no elbows on the table. And you talk about the history of why we have that rule. So what is the history of the rule? No elbows on the table.

Yes, and this is what people seem to forget, particularly with etiquette and dining etiquette, is that we have not just come up with these rules to annoy people. There is a rich history behind all of our cultures, and the no elbows on the table one goes back to sort of medieval Britain and Europe.

where the tables were not secure tables like we're fortunate to eat from today they were created from benches and sheets of wood twice a day when people were eating two meals a day back then not three and if you put your elbows on the table because of the way the food would be laid out down the center of the table well balanced if you put your elbows on the table the table would tip

and it would not be secure. And so thus it became the etiquette to not put your elbows on the table because you didn't want the food dropping onto the floor. I would say now we as humans, we're sort of so ingrained knowing with all our ancestors have learned not to do that. We sort of subconsciously or consciously know it as well. And so

something we still follow even though our tables are by and large secure yeah and it also doesn't look good when you're at a nice dinner to have your elbows on the table yeah it's horrid you can't i mean it's actually very difficult to eat with your elbows on the table i challenge anyone to do it nicely maybe at the end of a dinner when you're sort of chatting over a cup of

tea or coffee with your host, maybe having a little bit of a chocolate or something, I can sort of see that it's okay in that instance, especially if your host is doing it. But formally and actually whilst there's proper food on the table in the middle, then no, elbows off. When you're a guest at a dinner, when should you start eating?

So once the host has started, basically, is the rule. If there's a guest of honor, you would wait until the guest of honor has started. But generally on most meals that we have, there isn't a guest of honor. And so once the host starts and they should be served last, then you may pick up your cutlery and begin. I think everyone knows that when you're out to eat, you don't start eating your dish until everyone has been served.

But if it's like an informal dinner at your home with friends and family, do you need to wait until everyone's gotten their food to start eating? I mean, is that the rule? Oh, yes. Yes. Everyone's got to have food in front of them and be ready to go. And they're not still waiting for potatoes or sprouts or anything like that. You wait until everyone's got it. And then, and that's when the host then picks up their cutlery as a signal, we may now begin. If you're a host of a dinner, how should you pace your own eating?

Yes, you want to sort of identify the slowest eater around the table. And obviously for family dinners, you can probably work out who that is quite quickly because you dine with them quite a lot. Growing up in my household, my parents were hosting, it was always granny. Granny would do a lot of talking.

but not a lot of eating. And so my father was always sort of there dissecting a singular garden pea or something because that's all he had got on his plate whilst granny still talked and did less eating. But host starts first, but host finishes last. And that's a huge discipline. And the idea is that

You don't leave one person still eating with the rest of the table staring at them. So the host of picks who is the slowest follows them so that they can match pace. And so they are included and are not feeling like they're holding things up, even though, let's be honest, they might be. Let's talk dinner place settings. This is how you got your start as an etiquette teacher. First thing you did was teach how to do dinner place settings.

I'm sure if you've been to a fancy dinner, you see this layout and you're like, oh my gosh, which fork am I supposed to use? Which one's the bread plate? There's that whole advice that was in the Titanic. You know, start from the outside and work your way in with the silverware. Does that really do the trick or are there nuances to that? That does generally do the trick. I mean, all of these dining etiquette rules...

only work if the table's been set nicely. But working on the provisor, the table is set nicely and correctly, that one generally works. However, in American dining etiquette, there is what's called the American informal play setting, where a teaspoon used for the dessert will actually precede

the dinner knife. Some American etiquette books often will show both, the sort of the standard place setting with outside in, and then this American informal. And the outside in rule does not work at all, because it's sort of zigzagging all over the shop. So I'm very against the American informal one, because I don't think it helps people. And the whole point of etiquette is it's meant to sort of help people, whereas this is one exception to many. And also nobody that I have spoken to, and please, if you're listening to this, you know where that

rule came from, please tell me because my colleagues and I, even the American ones, just can't work it out. Who came up with that? What was the logic behind that? And I think with any rule, if you can't find the logic behind it, it's probably time to ditch it. Yeah. What's the etiquette of napkins? And apparently you're a big napkin aficionado. Yes, I've got an unhealthy amount of napkins for a grown man of my age, but I love a good quality napkin.

I've yet to get to the stage in life where I take my own napkin to restaurant, but I'm sure it'll happen at some point because in Britain, I don't know what it's like in America as much, but some places are obsessed with paper napkins and I'm just not convinced. I don't think it doesn't need to be paper because it's bad for the environment. So a perfectly serviceable linen napkin that can be reused is I think a bit better. But yes, napkins on the lap, not around the neck.

historically you had different types of napkin for different types of meals the larger the meal the larger the napkin today it's very unlikely unless you're me that you have different sizes of napkin which is fine just as long as it's sort of clean and ironed that's all i ask should you put your napkin in your lap as soon as you sit down

Not the second you sit down unless food is sort of hovering behind you ready to be placed down. I would sort of within the first minute is when you can do it. You don't want to look too keen. What do you do with your napkin if you need to leave the table for the restroom, for example?

Then it would go on the chair. And again, some people get sort of, when I say this sometimes in class, people will recoil because, oh, what the chair is so dirty. Well, if the chair's got arms, put it on the arm of the chair. Never put it on the back of the chair because then we can see it.

But actually, if you're worried that the chair is that dirty, what sort of establishments are you dining in? So just rethink where you're going. So yes, seat of chair or arm of chair, and then on the table when you're leaving, but you're not coming back. Okay, that's what you do with it when you're done. You put it on the table. Yes, absolutely. I'm not coming back. Goodbye. Thanks so much. And really, everyone should do that at the same time as well.

What do you do with your silverware when you're done? So it depends if you're eating what is in America called continental style, which is not a term we have over here. But if you're eating continental style or you're eating zigzag style, continental style, again, many American etiquette coaches advocate for that.

knife in right hand, fork in left hand. You would sort of place them in a triangle on the plate when you're resting with the bridge of the fork going over the knife, almost creating like a pizza wedge shape in front of you. And that is just to show I'm paused. I'm just going to take a sip of my drink. I'm

Whereas when you're finished, they would go together. And different countries have slightly different angles. In Britain, we do 6.30. If you imagine the cutlery is the hands of a clock. With Americans, it's generally 5.25. Some Europeans, it's 4.20. Some it's 3.15. I don't really care. As long as they've gone together, that's all the way staff are looking for. They're not going to look at your cutlery and go, well,

well, they've done it in the Dutch way and we're here in California, so we're not going to clear that plate. They're not looking for that. As long as it is together, that's what they want to know. Well, let's go back to handling utensils, how to hold them. So you mentioned the two styles, the continental style and...

in the zigzag style. So the continental style is when you got your knife in your right hand, your fork in your left hand, and you got the tongs or the face of the fork pointed down, right? Yeah. Yeah. And they work together. And in Britain or continental style, we let go of both of them when we're resting. But other than that, we have got one in each hand. They're almost extensions of our hands. Whereas in zigzag style, you might cut one or two pieces up with the

up with the knife, place the knife down on the upper edge of the plate, turn the fork over into the dominant hand, stab and eat, and then transfer it back, pick up the knife, cut another bit, set the knife down, transfer the fork. I mean, that's an aerobic exercise, Brett. Yeah. No, I don't like the zigzag style. I like where you just use the utensils as extensions of your hands for the duration of the dinner.

I think it's a lot easier, but some people insist it isn't. But, you know, to each their own. As long as the food's going in their mouth and not all over the shop. Yeah. The other benefit of it, too, is it allows you to take up less space because your elbows are tucked in. You can keep your elbows tucked in. You don't have to have your elbows all jutting out and bugging the other person. Yeah. And that's key as well because, you know, some dining tables are really tightly packed. Now, in American dining, you prefer...

round tables and actually at the state banquets at the White House used to be straight edge tables like we have in Britain a lot more but Jacqueline Kennedy switched them over to round tables and that seems to be how it's stayed at a state level at the White House and it's

The beauty of a round table, other than being more sociable, is that you are less restricted and you aren't immediately sitting next to somebody where you could elbow them. But on a big, grand, straight-edge table, you do have to be very conscious of where your elbows are going. Let's say you're at a dinner where you're being served family style. So all the dishes are on the table and you got to pass them around to make sure everyone gets serving. What are the rules of passing dishes?

So I have to be honest, Britain is the only country that makes things difficult and passes things in the opposite direction to every other country. In Britain, we pass things round to the left, so clockwise round the table, whereas in America, in India, in the Middle East, in Africa, every other country, Europe, the plates or the dishes go counterclockwise to the right. That said, I would say most Brits don't know that rule. I'm just telling you from an etiquette profession rule

rule that's the rule I think as long as you are offering the people each side of you no one really cares whether it goes to the left or to the right I thought that was interesting you talk about in Britain it's kind of faux pas maybe it used to be not so much anymore but to ask someone to pass you a dish like directly hey can you pass me the potatoes

Oh, no, that's a slap in the face in Britain, traditionally, because you're sort of saying, look, William, if you had said that to me, the subtext to that is, William, you have not seen that I'm sitting here surrounded by no potatoes. You have failed because, again, good manners are about other people. And so we've developed this very passive aggressive way in Britain. And we sort of say it now as a bit of a joke, but I can assure you it does work in practice.

If you had, and I know you wouldn't Brett, but let's for sake of argument say that you didn't pass me the potatoes, I would say, Brett, would you like any potatoes? And you might say, no, thank you, William, but would you like some potatoes? Oh, yes, I think that I would actually. And then they get passed. When I read that, it reminded me, I think the Dowager did that a few times in Down Abbey. Or I just imagine the Dowager's just saying some sort of passive aggressive thing like that.

Well, exactly. And you know, I think someone asked me a few weeks ago, do you think passive aggression is a good thing? And I think, you know, it's better than active aggression. Yeah, that's right. There's also etiquette on passing the salt and pepper. What's the rules of passing salt and pepper?

Yes. So salt and pepper travel together is the mnemonic that we teach children, but it works beautifully for adults as well. They are, they're a married couple in effect, and you don't want to split them up. So if someone says, please could you pass the salt, you would pass both the salt and the pepper together in one hand, if they'll fit in one hand, but two hands is fine. And I think that goes back to necessity when salt and pepper pots used to be teeny tiny. They weren't great big mills or grinders like we have now. They were much

smaller and so you didn't sort of want to split them up because then you might not find them tell us about salt cellars I never heard of these things until I read about them in your book yeah the salt cellars are sort of small little little dishes so I guess a lot of salt what do you have what do you what does your salt and pepper look like in your house they're just shakers that we yeah yeah

Yeah, which is sort of the more contemporary style. But going back to the Downton or even pre-Downton era, salt was served in a little, it would often be a silver little pot, but with an inlay of blue glass. Because if you put salt directly on silver, it will erode the silver and it doesn't taste then very good and it doesn't do the silver much good either. So you'd have this sort of blue little glass pot.

inlay that sat in there and that's where the salt was and a tiny little silver spoon that you would spoon out granules of salt and put it on a in a neat little pile on the edge of your plate and you would sort of add a couple of granules then using the tip of your knife sounds terribly complicated onto whatever was loaded up on the floor are these still used today

I would say this one is being slightly relaxed. Most restaurants you go to now, you don't get salt cellars. I would say salt cellars now you would see in a very grand private house, if at all. But most restaurants, it's a salt shaker with one hole in it. Pepper has several holes. And yeah, you can apply it more or less wherever, but try and taste the food first.

All right. But if our listeners, they ever have a dinner at a manor, they know what to do when they see a saltwater. They do know what to do. All right. Exactly. Any other rules that a guest at a dinner party or maybe even an extended stay in someone's home should follow to show proper hospitality, proper manners?

Yes, I mean, I think it obviously depends on context and whether you know them well or not. But, you know, particularly I get so many, I do a podcast as well, and so many letters we get in about, oh, I had my family to stay. They stayed with us for an entire week and they didn't once offer to cook or they didn't take us out for a dinner to say thank you.

Yes, it's an awful lot of work having someone to stay in your house for anything over one night. And even that can be quite tricky. So if you are going to stay, don't assume that your hosts will be entertaining you all three meals of every day either and the stuff in between.

but do offer to take them out to say thank you, to give them a night off cooking. I mean, that's, I don't know about you, most hosts don't want other people cooking in their own kitchen. No, I wouldn't like that. You can get quite territorial. Yeah. But please, let's order takeout or let's go out for a nice meal in a restaurant. It's on us. Just something to acknowledge the effort that they're going to. Take a nice gift, write them a decent length thank you letter afterwards.

What's a good gift to bring as a guest? What's your go-to? Because I think a lot of people say like wine or maybe that's not a good one. Yeah, and if...

I mean, it's a good one if you know that they like Italian Merlot, for example. If you know that that's their favorite wine, take them a couple of bottles. And it should be a couple of bottles if you're staying for several nights. It might even be a case of wine if you're staying for a week plus. But if you don't quite know what they drink, or indeed if they drink, and more and more people aren't drinking now, particularly with the younger generations, alcohol is probably not the best thing.

So chocolates, I mean, the practice of post-test gifts goes back to Chicago in the 30s and chocolates were the absolute sort of that was all that was acceptable. Most people like chocolates or can quite easily re-gift them if they don't. But ideally, you want to take something personal and personalized to them. You know, one I heard, and I would like if I got this, was just like a nice bottle of olive oil. Because I use olive oil a lot. Ooh.

Do you know, olive oil is becoming such a popular gift over here as well in London, and it's great. I mean, a good quality, particularly if it's Italian olive oil. I mean, over here, it might be easier to get that than with you. Yeah, it's a nice novel thing. It doesn't matter if you drink. I don't think many people are allergic to oil. So it ticks a lot of boxes.

Yeah, and it often comes in a nice bottle that presents well too. So I like that. Let's talk about elevators. Is there an etiquette for elevators? Oh, yes. If you're in a really old building in Chicago or New York or London, the

the elevator is probably going to be a little bit tighter than in a great big new build somewhere in Los Angeles. And so the senior person, whether that's the senior in the business or a lady or granny, whoever, would go into the elevator first. The person who gets out of the elevator first when it arrives at the floor is the person closest to the elevator doors. And that's the person who got in last. It winds me up in hotels where they're taking you to your room and you turn up at the

floor seven and they put their hand in front of the lift doors and you sort of have to edge past them because they want you to go first but that's all very well but i don't know where i'm going i've not been to this hotel before so i actually want i want the hotelier to get out of the lift put their hand across the lift doors from the other side of the lift and point me in the right direction much more courteous than sort of awkwardly edging edging past them

Is small talk appropriate in an elevator or should you just keep to yourself? I was having a heated debate about this only a few hours ago. No, in Britain, it's so taboo to speak in an elevator. I'm going to film a social media video, I think, that just sort of has a group of us saying nothing in an elevator. And then I'll just say at the end, we're British. We don't talk in elevators or lifts as we call them over here. But look, if you and I got in an elevator and we knew each other and there was no one else, you can absolutely speak in an elevator.

But with everyone else, Brits are so private with their conversation and thoughts, we couldn't possibly have someone else overhear what we're thinking or saying. So there is normally this very awkward silence in an elevator. Well, I prefer the silence too. I'm a big fan. Yeah, absolutely. So the British are famous for queuing, standing in line. Any etiquette for line standing? Yes. I mean, just sort of,

It's so democratic. It's first come, first served. It's so straightforward. We get very irritated when someone tries to jump the queue. And so...

etiquette rule number one is if you don't like the rules, don't play the game, basically. So if you don't want to queue, don't queue. And I think you are going to be shot down in flames in Britain if you sort of try to jump the queue. And I would say, actually, that's one of the commonalities between Britain and America. I mean, I think we are sort of the Olympic gold medalists of queuing in Britain, but I would say you're probably the silver medalists in America. Where it doesn't even get bronze is the Europeans. And actually, when you go to Disney in Paris, obviously American concept,

as Brits, I've been to a lot of the Disney's. The American ones are great because everyone follows the queuing, standing in line protocol. But in Euro Disney or Disney Paris, as it's now called, yeah, it's a little bit of a free-for-all and it's quite stressful. How do you handle line jumpers? Let's say someone tries to break that sacred social order. Should you call them out?

Oh, yes. No, we would. And I think we would sort of call them out, probably giving them the benefit of the doubt to begin with. We might say something like, oh, actually, the back of the queue is just here, for example, because it might be an innocent mistake. If they then go, no, no, I'm going to join it from here, then, well, that's a war crime. Is it proper to save places in line?

Can you do that? If it's not a busy queue, you could perhaps do it for maybe like a minute. But I would be very careful. If in doubt, don't. So I would probably not advise that. Yeah, I agree. It has to be done in moderation. Well, William, this has been a great conversation and we only scratched the surface of what's in this book. Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

Yes, the book is out now, Just Good Manners, published by Gallery at Simon & Schuster. It's available in all formats. There's an audio book. So if you're not sick of my voice after this interview, there's more of it on audiobook, ebook, and hardback in all good bookshops. And any other place on the internet where they can learn about you? Oh, yes. There's my Instagram at William Hanson, TikTok at William Hanson Etiquette, or my website, williamhansen.com. Fantastic. Well, William Hanson, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much, Brett.

My guest today was William Hansen. He's the author of the book, Just Good Manners. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about his work at his website, williamhansen.co.uk. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash etiquette where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast. Make sure to check out our website at artofmanics.com where you can find our podcast archives and make sure to sign up for a new newsletter. It's called Dying Breed. You can sign up at dyingbreed.net. It's a great way to support the show directly. As always, thank you for the continued support. Until next time, this is Brett McKay reminding you to not only listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

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