Will AI replace me? with AJ. Jacobs (from Fixable)
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Frances, I have a big thought to get us started today, which I've been thinking about a lot, which is that it's clear that the AI revolution is going to come for all of us. It's maybe more precise to say most of us, but the vast majority of us are not going to be untouched or unscathed by this phenomenon.

clearly highly disruptive technology. How do we even think about this, knowing that most of what's going to happen to us is still in this category of known unknowns? Yeah, so I would say that a pessimistic view is resistance is futile. An optimistic view is awesome. I'm going to get to move stuff that I really shouldn't have been doing anyway off my plate.

It is coming. And so resistance is futile. And I think it's going to be great. I remember when computers became a thing and instead of writing on paper, I got to have a word processor. And a lot of people were hesitant about using the word processor. But then all of us started using it and it became good. AI is going to be another step function change. Those of us that become early adopters are going to do better than late adopters. But here's the thing. All of us are going to adopt AI.

So my advice is to not put a catastrophic label on it. Right. And rather, start playing with it and having fun. I love to use ChatGPT for research. As you know, I don't like the blank page. In fact, I will hide from the blank page and go to great lengths to avoid it. ChatGPT means I never have a blank page. I can ask it a well-formulated question.

And it gives me something. It's not great, but I'm not looking for great. I'm looking for non-blank page. And then I get to riff off of that. And so it really empowers people like me that don't like to be the first draft. Yeah. I mean, we get to see a lot of organizations deal with

disruptive change on a more micro level. So disruptive change that affects the organization personally or the humans in an organization personally. I think the pattern that we observe that applies to this massive, arguably species level disruption is that staying in a fetal position doesn't get you very far. It may be an appropriate initial response, but I think the

that we can unclench as people and start to really deal sleeves up with the practical implications of this technology for our lives, I think the better. And I'll tell you why I love the prospect of this particular one. It has the potential to do things more efficiently and higher quality. And I love breaking the trade-off between quality and efficiency. Love, love, love. Yeah, I think the optimistic, exciting,

perspective on this change, which is one we still have the opportunity to create, is that it honors human beings in a way that no other technology has before. Let's deploy human beings to do the things that we are really great at and that no machine will ever be able to do.

I'm Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach. And I'm Frances Fry. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School. And this is Fixable from the TED Audio Collective. On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens quickly. Anything is fixable, and good solutions are often just a single conversation away. Who do we have today? Frances, today we have the honor of speaking with bestselling author A.J. Jacobs. He's a

who is famous for running some rather extraordinary experiments on his own life and then writing up the results for the rest of us to learn from and enjoy. So, for example, he spent a year of his life attempting to follow every rule in the Bible. Whoa. And it's a big swing.

And he's currently doing something not dissimilar, which is working on a book about living by an originalist interpretation of the American Constitution. Holy moly. Yeah. And he has a really interesting question for us today. So let's listen to his voicemail. Hello, Frances and Anne. This is A.J. Jacobs. I am a writer. I write nonfiction books. And I am stressing out, possibly freaking out,

because of robots, automation, anxiety, chat GBT4. I'm very nervous about it replacing me.

I consider myself someone who generates a lot of ideas. Not all of them are good. Most of them are bad, actually. But some of them I think are good. And ChatGBT is just a machine devoted to generating ideas. So am I going to be replaced? That is a genuine worry. And I need your help. Thank you. Well, this is...

This is a feeling that a lot of people are walking around with right now, given the heat and light around this technology. Some would say the hype. But I think we're now hitting kind of anxiety at scale. What's your reaction, Francesc?

You know, a colleague of ours has long said all ambiguous information is interpreted negatively and there's ambiguity about chat GPT. And so we go, oh my gosh, it's going to replace us. I don't think AI is going to replace very many people. I think what's going to happen though, is that we're going to be doing our jobs differently. And that I guess is its own form of anxiety, but it's not a replacement anxiety to me because

I just can't wait. There are so many things I want to outsource. Oh, my gosh. So many things I want to outsource. And so I have a very positive frame. I think we're going to have a big step function of innovation. And I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for AJ.

Yeah, I mean, I think to your point, the thing we know about AI right now is that we don't know what's going to happen. And in the absence of that clarity, we fill it in as human beings and typically fill it in negatively, I think, in these moments of technological disruption. So let's see if we can be helpful in getting him into a place where he can productively engage with ambiguity.

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AJ Jacobs, welcome to Fixable. Thank you. I am delighted to be on Fixable. It's an honor to host you. So before we jump in, we want to just talk a little bit about your work because what you do is so interesting. So you've written a number of fantastic, best-selling books. Thank you for saying that.

Is this fair to say that the general genre here is you running lifestyle experiments? Do you like the word lifestyle experiments? Sure. Whatever you want to call them. But like you said, I run an experiment. So for instance-

I felt I needed more gratitude in my life, so I did one where I tried to thank a thousand people who had anything to do with my morning cup of coffee. So I went around the world in person thanking the farmer and the barista and the truck driver and the logo designer. So that was called Thanks a Thousand because I literally thanked a thousand people. I did another one called The Year of Living Biblically where I tried to actually follow God

the rules of the Bible as literally as possible. So the famous ones like the Ten Commandments, but also ones like you can't shave the corners of your beard. And I didn't know where the corners were, so I just let the whole thing grow. So that kind of thing. Yeah. And your latest book, AJ, The Puzzler, you go deep on puzzles and try to figure out why we love them so much as a species. Yeah.

Absolutely accurate. Yes. And it's about my love of all types of puzzles and like crosswords and Rubik's and everything else. And it's got puzzles in it. And actually, it's being turned into a podcast called The Puzzler. So that'll be out in October from iHeart. Very cool. One of us on this call, one of your hosts really loves puzzles.

It's a puzzle which one it is. I'm guessing it is. It's Francis. It's Francis. I thought so. I love puzzles, but I will say I draw the limit at escape rooms. I don't know if escape rooms count as puzzles, but I don't want to be, I don't want my liberty to be based on my puzzling expertise. But from the comfort of my couch, I'm,

Bring it. You're on the crossword end of the spectrum. Well, I will tell you a secret. They don't actually lock the door because that would be illegal. So you could just walk out of an escape room. Yeah, you know what I'm not going to do?

Walk into an escape room. I see no value proposition in that whole thing. But I like the public service announcement you just gave to other people who are going to do it. It's really helpful. What draws you, do you think, to these big, messy, immersive projects?

Well, a lot of it has to do with curiosity, which is, along with gratitude, my favorite, my absolute favorite emotion or drive.

It's pretty magical.

It's often I learn great stuff that I still use and take away with me. And then there are incredibly unpleasant parts as well. But that is what hopefully makes it a good book. Because if it were all fun and games, like who wants to read about that? They want to see me tortured a little. So I do do that as well. What's most meaningful to you about this work?

Well, I guess there are two things. One would be those moments when it's wonderful, like, for instance, thanking the barista and even just having her tell me how much it means to have someone make eye contact with her. You know, that's so simple. And then on the other side, I do love it.

in almost a masochistic way when something goes extremely wrong, but in a way that I know will be fun for others to read about. Like, in the Bible, it says that if you take it really literally, the Old Testament, Leviticus talks about

how you should not touch women when they were menstruating. And it goes further, though. It says that if a woman sits on a seat while she is menstruating, then the seat becomes impure. And my wife thought that was offensive, which it probably is. So she sat in every seat in our apartment while she was menstruating.

And I had to stand for the entire year. So that, I was like, that was good. She was clever. She got me. This is a marriage that's working, I think, AJ. So far, she stayed with me. Wow. Let me ask the opposite. So when you mentioned up top there were moments that have been painful for

But are there parts of these projects that are less meaningful to you, that are downright boring? Well, one that comes to mind is actually writing them. I hate writing, which I, you know, I'm a writer, which is, I know, maybe a wrong choice of profession in some ways. But I love...

The other parts of being a writer: I love the research, I love talking to people, I love reading these obscure books, I love talking about the book after it is written, but I hate the actual writing part. Sitting alone in a room with no one else, it's very depressing.

So if there's a way to make that go faster, I don't know if AI can help with that. I mean, that might be the part that I have to do myself. But that's the first thing that comes to mind of the part I really don't like. So let's get into your problem. Tell us in your words what it is you're worried about.

Well, I'm worried about being replaced by a robot, that I will no longer be useful to this world, and that a robot could do my job better. And of course, I'm not the first to point this out. I mean, for years, people were talking about how robots were going to replace factory workers, and that the secret was to get into a creative field.

job because that is safe. Of course, robots can't do that. But then ChatGPT came out and it is remarkable. And I went on it. Actually, a friend of mine was the one who first said, I asked ChatGPT to come up with some book ideas in the style of A.J. Jacobs. And here are the answers. And I actually went on and did it myself. And first of all,

So many ideas. Just unbelievable quantity. And it was mixed. Some of them were not good at all, but a few of them were scarily good. Like,

I'm not sure I would do them, but they were really interesting. You know, one was called My Topsy Turvy Life by A.J. Jacobs. Everything backwards. I eat dessert first, eat dinner for breakfast, sleep. Wear clothes inside out or backwards. There you go. You're as good as Chat GBT. And what was your reaction to seeing this list?

I was alarmed. I mean, I was amazed. I thought this is unbelievable technology, but also alarmed. I thought that humans were the only ones who could come up with creative ideas, but I do genuinely think a lot of creativity is sort of mixing and matching existing ideas. And that's what ChatGPT does. You reveal in your...

choices and your writing, a very creative, resilient, adaptive person. So if I think about the spectrum of humanity and the people who are going to do well in a world where AI gets integrated into our work lives,

I would imagine you like right up there with the people who are most graceful about figuring out how to use this tool and adopting it quickly and early and using it to make their lives better. So help me make sense of that.

I'm getting older. I think, you know, it's harder to get. Oh, you're so old, AJ. Yeah. We see you getting stuck in your ways. Well, yeah, I fight it every day. I fight it because I know that that is the temptation. Like, that is, you know, I'm...

I put in all this work and I figured out how to write a book and I'm going to stick with this and I'm not going to change. I fight that because that is the comfortable thing to do. But it is hard. It gets harder and harder. So, Frances, summarize where we are in the storyline here. Yeah. So what I love about where we are is that for everyone, AJ included,

When there is an external shock of a technological revolution, what does it mean for us? And one of the points, AJ, that you make is that the younger are better than the older. Right.

When we're older and successful, we look to amortize the stuff we've done and the stuff we know. And younger people aren't looking to amortize. They're looking to collect. It's sort of, it's a little bit like the growth mindset and the fixed mindset. But it's the amortized mindset. It's that I've gotten good at something and now where else can I apply it? Right. Yeah, I love that. And yeah, I have spent decades learning how to write books and

And I want to keep writing books, but I'm worried, will there be a market for books? Because the chat GPT AI is so prolific, it's just going to flood the market with ideas and writing. So will there be any room for a human?

And then I don't want to dwell too much on this dystopian future in your head, AJ, but tell us a little bit. Is it a world where there is no room for...

creation because the robots are doing all parts of, for example, the types of projects, immersive projects that you do? Is that the fear? I guess that is the dystopia. I mean, in one sense, I do feel a little lucky because my books are so immersive in first person that

So it would be hard for a robot to have his wife get angry at him for, you know. Yeah, I'm just going back to the scene in the apartment. Exactly. So in that sense, I do feel a little lucky. I mean, I think I would be even more nervous if my job were, you know, writing biographies of Harry Truman, which I'm worried that AI might be able to do as well.

This is an anxiety that's widely shared in the creative community and beyond. And people are stopping access to their work because they don't want the AI to be able to use their creative vision to make other stuff. Right. And to have all these models trained on their work, which is definitely an unresolved issue here. So I want to start, and this is partly just to open up

this conversation up spiritually. Let's just get in the sandbox of how the robots could help you, AJ, with the current work that you're doing. So, Frances, where does your head go with this? You've played with this technology a little bit more than I have. Yeah. So, I like, and I do this in my profession, because there's teaching, teaching plans, case writing, and

And where my mind goes to is, what do I like least, which is what Anne took you down, and can robots help me with what I like least? So I don't go to where I'm threatened the most. I go to what do I like the least. And I hate a blank sheet of paper. So for me, I can ask ChatGPT to give me a one-page...

summary of the airline industry. And please make sure you cover this, this, and this. And ChatGPT is better than any research associate I've ever worked with in terms of precisely what you ask. Now, the art is asking the right, precise questions. So what I would do for AJ is, you said what you really don't like is writing alone. Right. Right.

Can ChatGPT be a partner to you in writing? I love that idea. I mean, that is, I don't know why I haven't done that sooner. So thank you. I feel that, like you say, the blank pages, it's much easier to work with the clay once the clay is out there than to try to create the clay out of thin air.

So that is great. I am going to try that. What you might do is you all the parts you love are the parts that chat GPT can't do. It can't do original research. Right. Chat GPT can only aggregate and summarize and predict existing things.

Right. You have all, you love all the new stuff. Like those are the, the, the original conversations and all of that. And so put all of your original research in there and then ask it to synthesize and find what are the five themes that,

that millennials would find surprising in these notes. I just made that up. But you will have an endless list of those questions for it. That's interesting. Now you have a thought partner. If you were going to describe that theme, describe that theme in one paragraph, two paragraphs, and three pages. Wow. I never thought of using it as sort of almost a proxy audience for

to see, but that is really interesting. So AJ, I want to go further in what we challenge you to do. I think you are uniquely positioned both because you genuinely feel this anxiety and because of this incredible body of work and, and skillset you have developed over decades to

in bringing the rest of us down this path. I like that. I want to propose as your next project, just to get your reaction to this, why not... Go right at it. Why not your next book being How One Man Stopped Fearing AI and Made Peace with the Robots? Why not run at this and help the rest of us figure it out?

I love it. I am in. If my publisher is in, I think it's a great idea. Like you say, run at it. Lean in. Sometimes the best...

writing is when it's conflicted and it's an area of conflict and you don't know what to make of it. And I think this could be great. Yeah. I'm a little scared of it, but I am. That sounds like that's a requirement for it being a compelling, you were probably a little scared to live by the Bible for a year. Yes. Oh yeah. Terrified. I was terrified of that. I was terrified of

the reaction, because it's a very controversial topic. And this one, yeah, I'm also terrified, like, you know, if the dystopia is real and we don't say nice things about artificial intelligence, it'll get back at us. And what I'm excited about this for, and this is my idea, so AJ, take this for the grain of salt, but what I'm excited for you about this is it's so central to where your fellow humans are

Right now. Right. In terms of stakes and relevance, it's this beautiful combination of what you can uniquely do and where the rest of the species is right now in terms of anxiety. And that intersection feels so powerful to me. Well, that is great. Yes. Because my favorite kinds of projects are ones where, like you say, the stakes are high, where it's not just me.

trying to do something. It's trying to do something that will resonate with millions and hopefully help them negotiate their own relationship with AI or gratitude or religion, whatever.

And I don't want to project, but I think, you know, you are pulling on this thread with so much grace and gratitude and curiosity. And these are all the emotions we're going to need as a species to resolve these issues. But that's not the emotions that are showing up in the current conversation. Well, I am trying to do it with curiosity. And actually, the puzzle book taught me a good way to frame my life, which was...

try to look at problems as puzzles, because problem is such a negative word. And puzzles... Oh, I love it. Oh, thanks. I love it. I came up with it and then I heard... We're changing the fixable tagline. Don't bring us your problems, bring us your puzzles. Yes. Let's try to solve it together. Can I tell you one thing? I thought it would be interesting to ask ChatGPT...

what advice it had for me about the dangers of chat GPT. So I did that literally just 10 minutes before because I couldn't get on. It was too busy. So I haven't digested it. I'm ready to go head to head versus chat GPT. All right. Let's see. And so you're not intimidated that it's going to replace you. I'm not. I'm not.

We're overconfident advice givers. I'm not saying it's accurate. I'm not saying that it's a feature and not a bug, but I'm not worried. Okay, good. All right, here it is. The prompt was, what advice do you have for author A.J. Jacobs for how he can adapt to a world with AI?

So it says, leverage the unique style was the number one. Experiential exploration of AI, Jacobs could consider doing a deep... Wait a second. Shut up.

I think this is what you suggested, Anne. I love it. Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah, that part and part Francis. That is awesome. That is hilarious. Well, here's what I would say, AJ. When you heard us speak and when you read that and be as honest as you can, what's your reaction to the two different things?

Well, I am still drawn to humans. And even if you said the exact same thing, it would mean a lot more coming from you. I don't know if that's rational, but I still think you have the edge. AJ, do you feel like we have solved the puzzle?

One thing about real life I find and puzzles that are different is that you never fully solve it. You make progress and that's okay. So we've made a lot of progress. I don't think that anyone will ever solve AI fully, but I feel so much more optimistic. I'm going to try to stay in that mindset of optimism. This is an exciting new venture.

Let's not treat it like it's fearful. It can go either way. It could be great for humanity or it could be terrible. So let's work to make it great. Awesome. We're in. Listen, if this is my next book, you are going to get a huge acknowledgement.

And I'm going to be coming back to you for advice. We are so rooting for you. You can attribute it to us or your search, or chat GPT. We don't care. We need no credit. We need no credit. We're totally rooting for you. Love it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, thank you. You really have made me feel much more optimistic.

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Frances, what do you think people listening who are not writers can learn from this conversation? I do think that there is something about the framing of when there is an external shock. Do we look at it from fear or from optimism?

And perhaps we just, you know, it's easy to do the fear one. So maybe get all of that out. And then like for tomorrow, let's do it with only optimism. You know, our greatest form of compliment to someone is that they have their can-do lesbian spirit, right? That their inner lesbian comes out. Oh my gosh, AJ Jacobs had such a beautiful inner lesbian. And yet even he got daunted by AI, which is why I loved your recommendation so much.

So how do we get a can-do spirit towards whatever the external shock is that comes across? And I think an important caveat is that by can-do, we do not mean to ignore the risks and threats. I think it's to be in motion as opposed to paralyzed by fear and anxiety, which is a normal human response. And yet...

In our experience, we walk into a lot of organizations where there's a lot of anxiety about change or some kind of disruption.

The antidote to that fear and anxiety is action. It is to be in motion, not only to metabolize some of that fear, but to also get the resilient parts into the party. Because that, you know, we're not going to get to a solution by standing still or through fear and anxiety alone. And so we have to invite some other emotions forward.

into the conversation. You know, when we think about the revolution of AI and chat GPT being one manifestation of it, there are some jobs that are right in the crosshairs of it, right? Displacement is going to occur, but how do we make sure that it happens in such a way that we progress, that we are better? I mean, I think there's two categories. There's the displacement risk and then there's collateral damage.

And I think one of the lessons of our work is that progress is sustainable if we take care of the humans along the way. And I think it's a lesson that we learned the hard way and at too high a price for, you know, internet-driven innovation. And I think that's part of the reason why the world is very focused on these risks now.

And the truth is that we don't know. But how do we increase the probability of finding out and managing these risks? And what the other part of it that you made me think with that is, and I want us to have fair economics. So if AI is using my ideas...

to give someone else profit, I would like my share of that profit. I think the fight over the pie, we should not leave up to AI. We want to battle for the intellectual property parts of it. And I'm encouraged that that is front and center in the conversation, and I think we're going to solve it. It feels like a fixable problem. I think what we have an opportunity to do differently now

versus other kinds of innovation is really keep our eye on the prize of the unknown surprise risk that pops up along the way. Like, can we build systems that help us manage collateral damage that we can't yet even imagine? I think the answer is yes. And I think AJ Jacobs is part of that answer. I think he is too.

Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris. And me, Frances Fry. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lydia Jean Cott, Grace Rubinstein, Sarah Nix, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, Banban Chang, and Roxanne Heilash. This episode was mixed by Lluis at Story Yard. If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And tell a friend to check us out.

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