Our Hymn
01:05:16 Share

An Undeceptions podcast. Love it. I mean, Ben, you know, I've known Ben a while and I just really trust his writing and I trust his heart. And when he mentioned your name and then I remembered all the songs you've written, I thought, oh my goodness, this could be very, very special. Because we're trying to do something that's not been done, which is either because it's a great idea or because it's a terrible idea. And that is we want to

resurrect, transpose, give back to the church. This ancient hymn that hasn't been sung for 1800 years. You're listening to me having a go at convincing some pretty special musicians to take a third century hymn and transform it into a song for our times.

The Musos are feeling the weight. They know it's an important project. They're just not sure how it's going to work. So it's very special. So if we can somehow, sorry, let me correct myself. If you guys can somehow bring a beautiful melody that honors this ancient melody and honors, obviously, the words some anonymous theologian put together, what a gift this will be.

to the church to sing this again. Well, I mean, thank you. I am so blown away just reading your email. And then just look at those lyrics, like you said, just kind of sit with those lyrics. Is that the whole of the song or is that just a piece that was found? That's all we've got. That's all we've got. I mean, I guess just so I'm clear, do you think there was more or that was the whole song?

Some listeners will know we're talking about the First Hymn Project. We're trying to revive an 1800-year-old lyric and melody found on a papyrus fragment catalogued as P.O.X.E. 1786, and we're giving it back to the world to sing. You can hear more about that in episode 142, aptly called First Hymn.

The journey started with a simple idea eight years ago, looking down a microscope in Oxford. And it's taken more than two years of pretty hard work and a great team to bring the production to completion. And now we're just weeks away from the release of the song and the documentary.

We've traced P.O.X.E. 1786 from the deserts of Egypt to the dreaming spires of Oxford. We've dropped in on rehearsal spaces in Sydney and set up camp in music studios in Nashville. And we've ended our journey in a stadium arena in Texas. You'll get to see all of that on the big screen, or the small screen if you prefer, when the first hymn releases soon.

Today though, I want to take you behind the scenes to see how we took an ancient tune and lyric and redesigned it for contemporary singing.

It wasn't just a matter of translating the words and singing the original tune. I mean, I love the original melody, but it certainly isn't the sort of thing we like today. I mean, it was pop music in the 200s AD in Greco-Roman Egypt, but to our modern ear, you know, it's pretty bizarre.

So we had to find a way to honour the original meaning and vibe of Pioxy 1786 while producing a song that everyone can get behind. My job used to be as a singer-songwriter, but this mission was well above my pay grade. Hence the real musos I've been chatting with.

They say no one likes to know how the sausage is made. Well, I hope that's not true, because that's what this episode is all about. How we resurrected the first hymn. I'm John Dixon, and this is Undeceptions. Undeceptions

This season of Undeceptions is sponsored by Zondervan Academic. Get discounts on master lectures, video courses and exclusive samples of their books at zondervanacademic.com forward slash Undeceptions. Don't forget to write Undeceptions. Each episode here at Undeceptions, we explore some aspect of life, faith, philosophy, history, science, culture or ethics that

that's either much misunderstood or mostly forgotten. And with the help of people who know what they're talking about, we're trying to undeceive ourselves and let the truth... This part of the Pioxy 1786 story begins with a meeting between a piece of papyrus and a custom-built Collings acoustic guitar. ...and speak in his breath, come and praise him.

Praise Him, praise to the Father, to the Son, Holy Spirit. When I first thought about bringing this ancient song back to life, one musician was uppermost in my mind.

Ben Fielding has crossed the boundaries between Christian and secular music and achieved lasting success. There aren't many Australians who can live off writing songs for others to sing, but Ben is certainly one of them. He won a Grammy for his 2018 song, What a Beautiful Name. And he's also been awarded six Dove Awards. That's the Christian equivalent of a Grammy.

He's published over 200 songs and it's a delight to call him my mate. He was my first call. Mate, do you remember your initial reaction when I pitched the first hymn to you? I do because it was sort of this really overt sense mix of apprehension and excitement. I loved the idea immediately. I mean, the idea of...

like capturing the oldest hymn that we know of sung by early Christians and being able to give that a modern life to me, that's just, it's an amazing idea. And I was excited to kind of even hear more of the history of the hymn and on a personal level, but the apprehension was like, how do you do justice to something that is ancient? Like I knew there was going to be ancient malady, that we had this ancient Greek lyric. And so I think with any creative process, there's this sort of,

Sometimes the boundaries, the limitations can be really helpful because it forces you to work within limitation. But at the same time, they can feel daunting. So I think I had all of that going on at the same time and just hoping we did it justice. So are you saying you felt this sort of weight of responsibility with trying to bring this back to life? I think so. And I think normally in the creative process, like a song will...

rise and fall based on its own justification. The song sort of justifies its own existence. But in this case we were sort of setting out to say the song is going to exist. We're gonna have a modern version of the first hymn. So now our job is to make sure it's worth existing. So that's kind of the opposite way I would normally work. So it felt like a great responsibility because of the significance of the project but was also kind of asking me to do something that I wouldn't normally do in my creative process.

Our Father everlasting, the God of Israel.

Ben has shouldered this sort of responsibility once before. He's one of the geniuses behind the gold record-making The Creed, This I Believe, which, like the first hymn, is a translation of an ancient statement of faith into a modern worship song. It's the Apostles' Creed, an 83-word summary of Christianity, turned into a kind of pop song.

It's deservedly sung all over the world. In fact, I was at a conference in Finland, of all places, where it was sung in Finnish. The song has had over 140 million plays on Spotify when I checked just yesterday.

Although you've done this ancient to modern thing before with your amazing hit, This I Believe, which took the Apostles' Creed and, you know, represented it. Was this different or the same? I think the similarity is that you're working within like a pretty strict lyrical construct with the Creed, as you'll remember, really trying to stay true to the text. I mean, the Creed is

We're remembering this together because I played a small part, I mean a teeny weeny part, in bringing about this song, This I Believe. On January the 4th, 2014, I tweeted out that some great songwriters should do world Christianity a massive favor, I wrote, and put the Apostles' Creed to inspiring music.

One of Ben's creative team, hey Cass, I hope you're doing well, she replied almost immediately with, we'll have a go. And two months later, I met with them all for Brekkie to hear the first draft of what would become this massive hit. The text, I mean, the creed is...

something that people recite on a regular basis. So you can't deviate too far. The difference here with the first hymn is most people would probably be completely unfamiliar with the text. But then at the same time, we really wanted to stay true to the intent of the original hymn writer.

but also because it's a song as opposed to the Creed, wanting to stay true to the musical intent of the writer and trying to dig into the mind of that original hymn writer about where's the emphasis musically and lyrically and trying to bring that into our modern interpretation.

The original writer of the first hymn emphasises God as Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You can hear all about that in the first hymn episode from a few months ago. The first quarter of this papyrus has actually broken off, so the very beginning of the song is missing, sadly. But there was plenty to translate to give Ben something to work with. Sigato. Let all be silent.

Meadastra faesfora keladeston. The shining stars not sound forth. Potamon rotion passe. All rushing rivers still. Hum nunton dihimon. As we sing our hymn. Patera huion hagion neuma. To the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Passe dunamis epifonuntum.

As all powers cry out in answer. Amen, amen. Amen, amen. Might, praise and glory forever to God. The only giver of all good gifts. Amen, amen. Amen, amen.

The incomplete lyrics were one thing. The melody was another. It takes you straight back to Greco-Roman Egypt, one of my very happy places. SASTRA FAESTORA CHIENA DESTO AMOR RODION PASSE

Some of you might remember this is the original Greek version sung by Wheaton College Choir. We'll put a link in the show notes. I think it's beautiful. Classical musicologists recognise the melodic structure as typical of the Greek theatre or tavern music. It's just that it's not really pub music for us today. So that was Ben's and his co-writer's challenge.

You had a head start on working on this. Where did you begin? Like, what was the... Can you go to that first creative moment? You sat at a piano, you picked up a guitar. And what? Yeah, I think before I even sort of played anything, it was sort of trying to look at your translation of that original Greek.

And then just sort of conceptually trying to break down the lyric into blocks and kind of think about, well, how would you package this lyric in a modern sort of song format? So what's a verse and what's a chorus as in what's the sort of centerpiece of this original lyric that you could sort of repeat that would kind of, it would really be the heart and soul of the song. And then probably the thing that when I did sit down to play, the first thing that really sort of jumped out to me

was the line to the only giver of all good gifts. That felt to me like this centerpiece or like this culmination, but then it felt like there were other lyrics that could be a better chorus.

I sort of had in mind straight away that there would be like the chorus would be this sort of as we sing our praise to the God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But then the bridge would be this sort of culminative kind of moment that brings it all together around the one, the only giver of all good gifts. Was there a special moment

or a particular melodic line that leapt out to you, or do you love all your melodic lines equally? I think for me it was coming to that, to the only giver of all good gifts, and that line sort of wrote itself. I actually have like the original idea when I sort of sat there and I was playing this melody and thinking, actually you could sing to the only giver of all good gifts. I can show you, I've got like a voice note. I don't know if you'll be able to hear it, but

This is like literally the moment that I sort of started playing it. Yeah.

I didn't have all the other lyrics or whatever, but that was sort of this initial spark of inspiration. And it just felt like the right mix of being beautiful and pretty, but also I knew you could develop that into something that... Because we only had 80% or so of the original lyric, and so knew we were going to have to fill in a few lines, but it felt like we could really kind of do something with that.

The we Ben is referring to is his co-writer on the first hymn. It feels weird to call him simply the co-writer because as Ben would be the first to point out, this is one of the most sung singer-songwriters in the world today. So stay with us.

This episode of Undeceptions is brought to you by our season sponsor, Zondervan Academic, and their new book, Beautiful, Disappointing, Hopeful, by New York pastor Drew Heughan. Drew moved to Manhattan in September 2001 and was confronted by just how quickly life in a beautiful, hopeful city can be shattered by darkness and disappointment.

as he experienced the events of September 11. His book shows that Christianity provides not only the tools to celebrate and be grateful for life, but also to mourn, to lament in healthy ways. With its practices of gratitude, grief and grace, Drew argues that biblical Christianity is the best lens through which to process the highs and lows of life.

This is not happy, clappy Christianity. It's nitty gritty. You can grab a free chapter of Drew's book, Beautiful, Disappointing, Hopeful, as well as discounts on a bunch of other titles just by going to zondervanacademic.com forward slash undeceptions. zondervanacademic.com forward slash undeceptions. It's our car, sing with me.

That's Chris Tomlin, one of the most significant creators and performers in Christian music today. Chris has sold over 12 million records, and he has over 7 billion streams to his name. He's a Grammy winner with over 30 top 10 hits. It's estimated that 30 million people sing Chris's music in churches every week. Tomlin is a great musician, and he's a great singer.

Time magazine described him as potentially the most often sung artist in the world. So I asked him how he felt about all that. I want to ask you how this particular success feels for you. I don't just mean loads of people listen to your songs and stream them, but they gather together and sing them together. More than probably any artist in the world today. What's that feel like?

You know, I remember when I did that interview with Time and I saw that in the article and I was like, wow. I never really thought of it that way. But then it made me think of this. The perspective is the opposite for me. To me, that speaks to how massive the church is. That's what it says to me. Because when you think about

all the music out there and the pop artists and the big names. Their names are so much bigger than mine and they're like worldwide phenomenons, right? But the music of the church is so much bigger. It was the first time that I really, it just connected the dots for me because I was like, "It's true. You can be the biggest pop star in the world,

there's nothing bigger than the songs of the church. And nothing ever will be. And to be a part of that, but to be to those songs-- since I was a kid, I've had one goal, one mission, and that's to give people a voice to worship Him. And to see that happen has been beautiful.

The same Time magazine article tells how Chris constantly strives to bring this kind of music, what they call worship music, to the masses. Chris himself says he tries to craft songs in a way that, quote, a person who's tone deaf and can't clap on two and four can still sing. It's more than worship music. It's public Christianity. Can you sort of sketch...

how you think you got to this point of writing songs that millions of people sing? You know, it takes me to a story I share in my concerts now. I haven't shared it in years, but it takes me to a story when I was young. I was just in high school, just graduating high school, and got my first opportunity to play at this youth conference. I say youth conference. It was this little church's youth week, and I was asked—it was the first time I was invited to play music at anything. And

i said yes i'd love to do it and i didn't know what i was doing i didn't have any songs i was so great i never said a word to the audience i just i had all my songs on note cards on the stage i never looked at anybody just saying these little simple worship choruses and the guy speaking at the end of the week this is very very incredible moment in my life because

Again, it's the first thing I've ever done. At the end of the week, he comes to me and he says, "I want you to know two things." I said, "Okay." He said, "One, you have no idea what you're doing." I was like, "Thank you." And he said, "Two, you have no idea how God's going to use your songs all over the world." And I just remember looking at him like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't have any songs.

I'm singing other people's songs. And he said, as I've been watching you and praying this week, I feel like God is just kind of whispering to me, you're going to write songs one day, and they're going to be sung everywhere. And I just, and I never forget this. He put his hand on my head, just standing there, just kind of put his hand on my head to look straight in my eyes and said, God, make Chris a psalm writer for his generation. And it was like lightning went through me.

And it was a marking moment in my life. And I would have never dreamed it led to here, led to all these years of songs. I mean, 30 years now of writing songs, of touring, of playing music all over the world. And what an amazing thing. I come from a small little town, a nowhere town in Texas. We had a Dairy Queen and a stoplight. That was it. And I would have never dreamed that this would happen.

What made you think of Chris Tomlin as the perfect collaborator? I've known Chris for a lot of years and had great respect for him as a songwriter, as an artist. And I think, I mean, he's been prolific for so long. You think back to like those early songs, like even before How Great Is Our God, which just became an absolute anthem for the modern church.

And then, you know, most recently, like Holy Forever, which again is just this song that juggernaut song that's been a blessing to so many people. But I've also really respected Chris. To give you a sense of what we're talking about. How great is our God reached number one on the US Billboard Hot Christian Songs chart. It won Song of the Year at the 2006 Dove Awards and went platinum after a million certified sales.

Holy Forever also peaked at number one and was nominated for a Grammy in 2023. They're pretty fun bookends to an incredible career. But I've also really respected Chris as like a statesman kind of figure in music for the church. And he's been a champion of other people's songs. And I think he really understands when something has gravitas, something that the church needs to be singing.

But he's also this sort of neutral character. He's sort of like a Switzerland, you know, where I think people take what Chris does and I don't think he's at all a divisive kind of character. He's such a unifying person within the church. And so he felt like the perfect person to be able to carry something like this.

I know firsthand how difficult it is to get anything into the Chris Tomlin schedule. So how did you react when Ben Fielding rang you up and said, "Hey, you want to rewrite something from the 200s AD?" Well, I love Ben. Ben's been someone I've just admired for a long time, his songwriting and just a great friend for years. So when he called me and said, "Hey, you want to do this together?" I thought, "What an incredible, what an amazing opportunity, what a privilege to do this."

And then when I learned more about the song and learned more about where this came from and all that was happening, I was like, what a privilege. I mean, this is what I've given my life to, right? To write, to help people sing. And why would I not want to be a part of this if I can in any way? Did you feel intimidated at all, sort of resurrecting something that old? Or was it just excitement? Complete intimidation, complete. Like, I don't want to mess this up.

you know i think how can i what can i i don't want to take a wrong step this is precious this is a precious gift from believers early believers who literally gave their life for the gospel gave their life for the faith that i'm in now almost 2 000 years down the road standing in the long line of

And I thought, I just definitely handled this with great responsibility, I think. It wasn't like, "Oh yeah, that sounds great. Let's just write something." No, you don't approach something like that. It's very serious and prayerful and like, "God, how can I write something that could relate to today but hopefully capture the heart of what they were singing all those years ago?"

Hopefully we did that in a small way. When I left the conversation, it was now up to Ben and Chris. I mean, at one level, it was always going to be up to them, but now I had to leave them to it.

My initial idea was to throw them in a room together for days on end until they emerged with the new first hymn. But we realised that wasn't going to happen. Ben was in Sydney, Australia, and Chris was on tour around the US and elsewhere, or in Nashville, Tennessee. The chances of them being in the same physical space any time soon was next to zero.

It was starting to look like the whole process could take six months, a year, maybe longer. This was the time Director Mark lost his hair. But Chris and Ben found a novel way to solve the problem of distance.

So through the beauty of technology now, we didn't really even Zoom or FaceTime or anything like that. We were just sending little notes back and forth through our phone. I would sing something, send it to him, I was like, I think this, what about this, what about this melody for this lyric? And the lyric was already there. It's just trying to find how do we sing this lyric in a way that feels really fresh and today and singable and powerful and

And so we just kept going back and forth. It was beautiful looking at all the voice memos, listening to them now, where it started, where it came from. And so it was a different process for me. I'm not really good at that. A lot of people can get on a Zoom or they can write through technology back and forth. And it just never works for me. It never does. This was, I think, one of the only times. I always kind of have to be in the room feeling it was someone. This was just...

It was definitely God's Spirit connecting us through, you know, across the oceans, connecting us and writing this together. Anyway, just keen to hear how all these sorts of ideas hit you and not pressures about any of them. It's just really trying to work out how to make those lyrics that we do have feel natural and feel like they sit over kind of modern melodies. ♪ My powers cry out in answer ♪

I know you're a genius with this stuff but I just wanted to throw some initial thoughts at you. I'm loving your chorus and I wonder if the bridge could do something like this pick up the rhythm a little bit.

To the only giver of all good gifts, amen. To the only forgiver of all our sin, amen. Amen. To the only giver of all good gifts, amen. Amen. Amen. All powers are crying.

to the only giver of all good gifts ah to the only one who forgives our sin ah to the only god to the risen king to the one who died and rose again we sing our hymn

Oh

What's he like to work with? I mean, I think of two powerful creatives in a room together, you know, could be dicey. No, I mean, Chris is such a gentleman and I think he's brilliant. So I've got a lot of respect for him and for his instincts too. And so I think we think similarly enough and I knew that we would be able to reach sort of the common ground.

But I think with any collaboration, the strength of it is actually those points of difference where you could go this way and you get pulled back a little bit and vice versa. One really good example is the original bridge melody. Chris was like, "I just think it gets a bit too high, so we have to dial that back a little bit." Then his just instincts on those verses. I'm just really grateful for his input into the song because it definitely took it from something that was headed in a direction, Chris made it great.

November 2023 came around and I thought it might be time to head to Nashville to see what, if anything, had come of the songwriting.

I knew nothing of this online collaboration. I wouldn't have thought it was possible. So I headed to Nashville thinking this was going to be the beginning of the songwriting process. We had Chris and Ben in one place for just a couple of days, and I was excited to be a fly on the wall of this creative duo. We met in a writing and rehearsal space called The Barn. It's an old ranch converted into a musician's paradise.

When we sat down, I asked the obvious question. How long do you think you've got a full song? Okay. A complete song. So we got a little bit of a surprise for you, and that is we think we finished the song. What? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It happened so fast. How did that happen? I don't know. I mean, I've written lots of songs, Ben's written lots of songs, and rarely do they just...

I think the lyric was so much there that just several times back and forth, they're like, this feels really, really special. So we'd love to play it for you. Oh, man. Yeah. OK. Now I've got shivers. Let all be silent. The shining stars not sound. The rushing roosting. The mountains bow down in awe and wonder.

In reverence we come Who is worthy of all worship Who is seated on the throne All powers cry out in answer All glory and praise forever

I was stunned. You'll have to wait to see the film to see the look on my face and maybe a tear in the eye or, you know, got a piece of dirt in my eye. Yeah, that's what it was.

Here I was expecting a long, drawn-out process, and instead I was presented with a musical miracle as far as I'm concerned. I later asked Chris if he thought the miracle might extend a little further. You've had a lot of successful songs, but I'm allowed to ask you, does this first hymn feel special already? Or am I jinxing you by even asking this question? Yeah, I never know. I never ever really, really know anything

what a song is going to do. Sometimes I've thought I have and I've been completely wrong, but I just, you know, so I just try to approach it and say, "God, this is the best I can do at this moment." And you take this offering and if it could be used, that would be amazing.

To my continued surprise, the next day we headed out to the rolling hills outside Nashville to record this song I've just met. Nestled among the trees is Dark Horse Studios. It's a massive multi-story wooden edifice that perfectly blends into the surrounding bush, complete with timber towers and a dozen creative corners for musicians to hone their tunes. It's a wonderland.

Dozens of artists have turned out gold records here. Taylor Swift, Keith Urban, Hunter Hayes, Bella Fleck, inside the studio on this day, were some of the best session musicians Nashville has to offer. Which is to say, pretty much, some of the best musicians you'll find anywhere. They were all keen to help out this project. And to top it off, we had the award-winning composer-producer Jonathan Smith.

Under Jonathan's expert guidance, a beautiful track began to take shape.

I really always pray, "God, would you put your presence on these songs?" What I think marks the great songs is people sense God's presence on them. You know, we're not inventing new chords, we're not inventing new melodies. There's only 12 notes out there. But you say, "God, would your presence touch this and would people feel your presence with it?" And that's what I hope with this. You know, I can look back on some of my songs through the years and looking back,

Looking back, it maybe felt obvious, "Oh yeah, that was going to be a great song." I didn't know it at the time. And so this, I know the lyrics, I know the lyrics are incredible, so hopefully it's written in a way people can latch onto. And I hope, my hope and prayer is that it's just, it reignites a fire all over the world with this song again, just to...

Because I think the story is so powerful of connecting people, of people feeling connected to the early saints. You know, that's what a privilege.

This is not just a musical journey. It is spiritual. And if you're listening to this right now and you're not sure if you believe in Christianity, I still reckon you would have felt the spiritual power of this journey we've been on from Egypt to Oxford to Nashville and beyond. Spiritual songs have a weird power. I mean, I reckon all songs have power, but spiritual ones take us to another place, a

Think of those early spiritual blues songs sung by slaves, or a modern gospel choir, or King's College Cambridge choir. Go and put it on and you'll be elevated. And if you add centuries of history to a spiritual song, it can take on even greater force. I trust I'm not just projecting my own history nerd experience here.

After the break, we're going to set the first hymn in the broader context of ancient spiritual classics. This episode of Undeceptions is brought to you by Speak Life and their new video-based course, 321, presented by the wonderful Aussie, now living in England...

Glenn Scrivner. G'day, mate. Glenn is a fantastic public advocate for the Christian faith in the UK. And in this course, he walks you through the core beliefs of the Christian faith. Glenn provides a basic Christian perspective on life, the world, and our place in it. 321 is a fantastic new way to explore Christianity. And it's also a brilliant way to share and deepen your faith if you're already a believer. So we

So it's both for skeptics and for believers. You can do 321 online in just a couple of hours or you can space it out over a few weeks. I'm really excited about this because honestly, Glenn is an awesome bloke. Head to 321course.com forward slash underceptions to give it a go. There's no spam and no cost. That's 321course.com forward slash underceptions. You won't be disappointed. Music

I was hungry many times, my nature desired food, but I stopped and did not eat to become worthy of the blessing reserved for those who fast.

How special is that? It's an ancient hymn performed by the accomplished Arabic musician George Azawi. And you can hear that gorgeous melisma. That's a single syllable of lyric sung over multiple notes. But what's being sung is an English translation of an ancient Syriac lyric by Ephraim of Edessa.

He's from the 4th century, just a little over 100 years after the first hymn. Ephraim's words have survived. Sadly, his original melodies haven't. So the tune you're hearing is from the medieval period. Still, it's beautiful.

Ephraim, or Saint Ephraim as he's known in the Orthodox Church, was a real 4th century Christian deacon. Deacon is the role one takes before becoming a priest or elder in the ancient church. Ephraim lived in the important trade city of Edessa, near the border of the Roman and Persian empires.

We could do a whole show on Ephraim because he developed one of the first recorded medical ministries. In a famine of the year 373, he set up 300 beds in a public portico where he and others treated the sick. The wealthy of the city were so taken with him, they showered money on the project and it became a really big deal.

Sadly, he died from contracting something nasty from one of the patients. We have a lovely primary source that describes him as the supreme spiritual nerd and a friend of the sick and dying. Here's the report. MUSIC

He devoted his life to monastic philosophy, and although he received no instruction, he became "contrary to all expectation", so proficient in the learning and language of the Syrians that he comprehended with ease the most abstruse theorems of philosophy.

Later, the city of Edessa being severely visited by famine, he quitted the solitary cell in which he pursued philosophy and rebuked the rich for permitting the poor to die around them, instead of imparting to them their excess wealth.

Ephraim offered to undertake the distribution of their gifts. He had about 300 beds fitted up in the public porches, and here he tended to those who were ill and suffering from the effects of the famine, whether they were foreigners or natives of the surrounding country. On the cessation of the famine, he returned to the cell in which he had previously dwelt, and, after the lapse of a few days, he expired.

So many in the ancient church were nerds and social activists. I'm thinking of Basil the Great, Macrina the Younger, Saint Augustine and so on. Ephraim is a very cool example because he can add to his CV, hymn writer.

He put his philosophy, basically very precise theological argumentation, in poems and songs so the masses could understand and remember them. He wrote over 400 songs, all designed to ward off fashionable heresies and help people imbibe the ancient truths. In the Syrian Orthodox Church, his lyrics are still revered, and they're sung to new tunes.

Well, when I say new, I mean just, say, 800 years old. I think music and singing have been central to the experience of any ritual celebration, Christian or non-Christian, I think. Dr Maria Montero teaches in the music department at Baylor University in Texas. She's a specialist in the history and sociology of spiritual music. In the case of Christianity, I think we inherited those practices from God.

the Jews who were already doing that, we can see in the Bible reference to a lot of use of singing and instruments and choirs and even the command to sing. So this is a big part of our inheritance. And I think because of singing in music,

has great power in the ability even to form identity. I think that was very important for the Christians to continue that practice, kind of delineating who they are, sometimes in opposition to the majority around them.

And I think music has this ability to not just form but strengthen the community. So communal singing is very important. In the case of Christians, we also know that they were singing about God and Jesus and the new doctrines and ideas that they had learned now that they are following Jesus. So it is just a very central part of any kind of

virtual celebration, expressing their ideas, teaching, like I said, strengthening the community, remind themselves who they are, who God is, who Jesus is. In this documentary, we've spent a lot of time thinking about the lyrics, the content of this ancient hymn. Is this one of music's primary roles to be educational, to inform people about ideas?

Yes, I think music has many roles in the life of a church and a community, and definitely I think education is one of them, formation. And I think people remember songs more than they remember sermons.

and in a time especially when not everybody was reading, there were not books everywhere. So the words of the songs would be something that will stay deep in their memories. We know from my own research how missionaries, when they arrive in different places, new places, they were very concerned about

publishing some kind of collection of songs because once they were gone, until the next preacher would come around, the community could hold on to those words and remember what they were by singing. So I think, yes, I think that the church has many tasks and I think proclamation is one of them. Of course, worship and praise God, remind each other who they are and their place in the world, but also I think to learn the lessons, the doctrine.

Let's press pause. I've got a five-minute Jesus for you. In the modern world, at least in the modern sort of pop world, music has lost its educational roots. For us today, songs are more often emotional outlets. Sometimes they're not even that. They're just jingles or dance tracks. I know I sound like a snob.

This is not to say the ancient world didn't have jingles. I mentioned in a previous episode the marble monument near Ephesus that has a song scratched into it in ancient Greek, both words and music. It says, as long as you live, shine, let nothing at all grieve you. Life exists only for a short while and time demands its end. It's a kind of ditty.

It's often called a drinking song from the first century, but it might actually be a bit of a lament. It sort of sees the day because we're all going to die soon. So come to think of it, even the ancient jingle is a kind of philosophical lament.

Here's a real difference between modern and ancient music. Ancient music was very often seen as an emotional and mnemonic vehicle for ideas, a tool for remembering important themes. We have an Epicurean jingle from the first century BC that sort of rhymes in Greek and goes like this.

The translation is: You can see here that this song, what scholars actually call a jingle, is designed to teach doctrine and lock it in the student's head.

This is Epicurean Philosophy 101. Basically, the themes are don't fret about gods. They've got better things to do than think of you. Don't fear death because death is the complete dissolution of all body and consciousness, so why worry about it? And then pursue good experiences as the remedy to the pains and sorrows of life. That is Epicureanism in four lines. If the Epicurean student has this poem or hymn in the head...

the student won't be able to forget the core ideas of their school. Now, in case you're wondering why I'm mentioning all this, it's because ancient Christians also saw their singing as an educational tool. Not just education. The ancients often had this really nice balance between head and heart, between rote learning and creativity. Man, there's a whole episode in that one day.

But just think of the Book of Psalms, which is clearly the immediate back catalogue for early Christian music. The Psalms are Hebrew songs which do two things at the same time. They express the depths of emotion, whether sorrow or joy, and they teach the Jewish people about the character of God and his words. They are a psychological outlet, but they're also an educational tool.

early Christianity inherited this idea from Jesus and the Apostles. And the Apostle Paul makes the point explicit. Songs are for joy and thanksgiving as well as teaching one another. Here's his explicit instruction about singing to the church at Colossi in Turkey.

Now, so far it sounds like he's talking about a school, not a church. But then...

Go check it out. That's Colossians chapter 3. Songs are about creativity. They are about joy and spirituality. But they're also about letting ideas, the logos of Christ, dwell in our hearts and communities. They are a form of teaching. It's true some forms of Christianity are all head. And that's a problem.

And some are all heart. And that's a problem. Christian songs are meant to be about both. You can press play now. Ben and Chris have now composed their new first hymn. But all the way along, they felt like someone was looking over their shoulder. And I don't mean God. There's actually for this a kind of third composer, the original composer. Yes. Do you feel you ended up

with an affinity. I mean, few people in the world have had to enter into that original song more than you. Yes.

Yeah, I found myself right through the process trying to imagine this original hymn writer. What was it? Was it a he? Was it a she? Were they thinking? What were they doing? Who were they writing for? And so trying to picture the early church. And I remember you saying early in the process that the song was written from a melodic point of view, with this tavern style. It's a song that you might hear at the local pub. So that there was this

It made me really think about the original hymn writer was trying to write something that people would feel familiar with, that they could come in and they could be part of this song. They could sing it, they'd catch the melody. It's almost like the song, each line would sort of finish itself.

And then I thought, were they kind of doing sort of what I do, like trying to write songs that help people sing in worship? And so I had this sort of sense that maybe we're kind of a very like-minded people. And so that was kind of cool. And then definitely through the process, wanted to honor that original intent of the songwriter. Every artist hopes the audience will go, wow, great song. Yeah.

What's the thing you hope people will go away with from this song? I hope that their faith is lifted up in their hearts. Their faith grows as they sing this song because they realize, wow, I think this is one of those particular things that reminds us of the history of our faith and the story of our faith, and that our faith is not 30 minutes old.

It's thousands of years and that we stand in a long line of people who have stood and sung these songs of worship and to think that worship is eternal.

and to remember that we are part of something eternal. That worship was going on long before you and I got here. It was going on long before those ancient Egyptians were here. It's been going on forever, and it will go on forever. And we just continually join that song.

It's interesting. In the US, Christian music is so big, it can basically forget about the audience beyond the church walls. But all through this project, I was conscious that the first hymn seems to have been not just church praise, but public Christianity, an attempt to make sense of the Christian faith to the wider world.

So I asked my guests about this. Were you conscious of the sort of mainstream audience, you know, the audience that may not believe any of this theological stuff? Yeah. Because it's one of the things we emphasise in the documentary, the way that the song seems to be wanting to engage beyond the church. Were you conscious of that in your own rearrangement? I was, and in part it's because I think of our early conversation about that being the intent of the original hymn writer.

And so that was certainly on my mind, but at the same time sort of realizing that this is like unapologetically, like it's a Christian hymn.

And so thinking about what would obscure the message. And I think you can obscure the message of a Christian hymn in lots of ways. One would be to make the language too esoteric. And so it feels like only people that have been in church for years would understand what we're even singing about. So we didn't want to do that.

and you could obscure the message by going the other way and sort of softening the message and watering it down to the point where it sort of doesn't stand for anything. And I think any music that's compelling is honest and sincere, but it's communicating something that needs to be communicated. And so hopefully what we've done is we've created something that is approachable, but that's also honest.

Do you feel that church music also has a role in challenging or inspiring doubters?

who might just be listening in to what happens in church? I think so. I think music is very powerful and it moves emotions and sometimes, you know, I think it's interesting we have eyelids but we don't have ear lids. So sometimes we may hear something even if you are not planning on. That's different. We can always turn our face and not see something but we can sometimes not take a while for us not to listen. And I think it's interesting. I have heard stories of people that they were just attracted by the sound

And then they join in and then they understand, "Oh, this is what they're saying." And again, in my research in Brazilian hymnody, people that said, you know, they would not stay for the sermon. And sometimes the missionary says, "If I keep on preaching, people are going to be throwing things at me." But once I started playing and singing, a crowd would gather.

And then that was an amazing way for people to hear the gospel. And people that have told me in their own lives how, you know, they still remember that was that one line from that song. And they didn't understand anything about doctrine, about church, what's a Protestant, what's a Baptist, but that message of the song spoke to me.

What would you hope a skeptic who hears the song, watches the documentary, would gain personally? Well, I think firstly that Christians have believed and have been singing about the Lordship of Christ for centuries, millennia. And so it's an ancient truth that stood the test of time, which doesn't make it true, but at least makes it worth considering whether it might be. And secondly, that

the invitation of the hymn writer, which is, we live in a fallible world, fallible creation, certainly the fallibility of Christians and organized religion. But like the hymn writer invites us to do, let all of that be silent and let God, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the only giver of all good gifts, be at the center. So the invitation, I think, to the skeptic is to go,

What about if you just for a moment, just consider the goodness of God? We recorded this interview backstage at a venue in December last year.

Later that night, Chris and Ben would give the very first public performance of the new first hymn in front of more than 10,000 people and nine cameras so we could capture it for our documentary. Ben was calm enough. He's a very cool cat and he's done stadium gigs before. But I had to ask him how he was feeling about reaching this culmination of the first hymn project.

I can't believe here we are on the day. Yeah. You're about to perform this for the first time tonight. Yeah. Wow, I'll go back to that first conversation I had with you in the cafe. Yeah. How are you feeling today?

Yeah, to think back to that moment in the cafe where you were originally pitching the idea and to think that tonight in front of thousands of people, this song will be sung for the first time. It's been quite a journey and I couldn't be more excited to hear hopefully people singing this song back because that was certainly the intent was to give this song back to the modern church and then to imagine

early Christians singing this song, what, nearly 1800 years ago, that we can still sing today the same words in unity is unbelievable. ♪ To the only God, to the risen King ♪ ♪ To the one who died and rose again ♪ ♪ Amen, we sing amen ♪ ♪ To the only God ♪

I think this song connects us to the early days of the church starting. And I just hope in a day where it feels like the church being pushed down and pushed down and pushed down, it's a moment, I think, to remember where this song came from. In the midst of the church being persecuted and talking about pushed down, people losing their life. And yet, to stand there boldly

And to boldly say, no, this, we're worshiping the God of all creation. All powers bow to Him.

everything bows to Him, to the only giver of all good gifts. Amen. To how that kind of boldness in the midst of a culture that just wants to just like push away and when you're always going upstream, when you're always, it's completely counterculture to be a person of faith, to stand there and say in the midst of that,

I'm calling, I'm saying to the only one, to the one whose every power bows down to, that everything be silent before him. That is, what a powerful thing. Chris Tomlin, thank you so much. Yeah.

Years of imagining, months and months of hard work from my team and from Chris and Ben. For me, the first hymn represents Christianity before there were denominations. So it's a point of unity. It demonstrates that from the beginning, Christianity revolved around the triune God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The song is also testament to the confidence of the ancient church right in the middle of a period of persecution, in the middle of the 200s AD. At times they were being hunted down, but here they were singing with joy and exuberance and inviting all creation to stand still and take notice.

The song will drop internationally in just a few days, April 11. You'll be able to hear it on Spotify, Apple Music and all the places.

The documentary is making its way around the world in stages. It premieres in Los Angeles and Washington, D.C. next week. And if you're in the United States, you'll be able to stream it on demand from April 14. It'll reach Australia, my home, later in the year in July. We're hosting a whole bunch of cinema events around the country by August.

It'll be available pretty much everywhere. To stay up to date on when the first hymn will be available near you, sign up to thefirsthymmovie.com. Thefirsthymmovie.com. I can't wait for you to see it. See ya. We sing our hymns to our God, Father, Holy Spirit.

so

If you like what we're doing, why not consider becoming an Undeceptions Plus subscriber? For as little as $5 Aussie a month, you get a bunch of extras, including extended episodes. You'll also get extra bits of the interviews with some of our guests, access to our special Undeceptions Plus Facebook group. Plus, you'll get the first look at all the other super fun things that Undeceptions is doing.

So it's worth being part of the club. Head to underceptions.com forward slash plus to join today. And if you have questions about this or any other episode, you can head to our website and send us a question. Try recording your question so we can hear your beautiful voices on our next Q&A episode. We love hearing from you. See ya. Music

Undeceptions is hosted by me, John Dixon, produced by Kayleigh Payne and directed by Mark, where's my hair, Hadley. Alistair Belling is writer and researcher and drummer. Siobhan McInnes is our online librarian. Lindy Leveston remains my wonderful assistant. Santino DiMarco is chief finance and operations consultant, editing by Richard Humweep. Special thanks to our series sponsor, Zondervan, for making this Undeception possible. Undeceptions is the flagship podcast of Undeceptions.com, letting the truth out.

An Undeceptions Podcast.