What Trump's Win Means for Jan 6 Rioters
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It's Monday, January 6th. Happy New Year. I'm Jane Koston, and this is Why Today, the show that, unlike former Florida Representative Matt Gaetz, did not spend part of its winter break live-tweeting its own ethics report release. Because this show is good at a lot of things, but exceptionally good at not doing unethical things and then telling lots of people about them.

On today's show, President Joe Biden passes out medals and increases Social Security benefits for public sector workers. And we talked to a former D.C. Metropolitan Police officer who was at the Capitol on January 6th. Let's get into it. A lot happened while we were out for the holidays. Former President Jimmy Carter died. Fourteen people were killed in New Orleans in a terrorist attack on New Year's Day. Another five people died in a similar attack at a Christmas market in Germany.

Elon Musk got in a big fight online with a MAGA faithful over immigration visas for high-skill workers, and it all led to him saying to his detractors, quote, fuck yourself in the face. So that's fun. A new Congress was sworn in, with Republican majorities in both the House and Senate. And House Speaker Mike Johnson managed to hold on to his job, albeit barely, after a few Republican holdouts decided to vote for him.

That brings us to today, when Congress is set to certify the 2024 election results and incoming President Donald Trump's victory. It happens to fall on the four-year anniversary of January 6th, 2021, when a mob of violent insurrectionists stormed the Capitol to try to overturn Trump's loss in the 2020 election. ♪

It's a seemingly full circle moment, with Congress certifying Trump's victory four years to the day that he encouraged his supporters to fight for him. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. Since then, almost 1,500 people have been charged with crimes for their actions that day. Close to 900 of them pleaded guilty. And another 200 or so were found guilty at trial. More than 500 people served time in prison. Some are still serving time.

Not Trump, though. He's managed to avoid any real consequences for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. And as he heads back to the White House, it raises a lot of big questions about what comes next. Will he really pardon the rioters like he says he will? What does it mean that a sizable portion of the country thinks the insurrectionists are heroes? Will they successfully rewrite the story of what happened that day? Could it happen again? So to reflect on the anniversary, I spoke with Hannah Rosen. She

She's the host of Radio Atlantic and co-host of the Atlantic's narrative podcast, We Live Here Now. It's all about the so-called Justice for January 6th movement and its leaders. Hannah, welcome to What A Day. Thank you. Excited to be here. So you had a very unique experience of the Justice for January 6th movement because the mother of Ashley Babbitt, who was killed in the Capitol building on January 6th, and the wife of the first person sentenced for crimes that took place in that day moved in right by you.

First and foremost, what was that like for you? Well, we didn't know that she was there until my partner and I were walking our dogs and my partner yelled something at her car because the car was full of January 6th stickers. We didn't know someone was in the car. And then that person rolled down the window and said, justice for January 6th, right back at us. And then they had an altercation, you know? So that's how we figured out who lived in that house.

Now it's obvious because they have a big Justice for January 6th sign up. Now they're out. So, you know, if I walk down the block right now, two blocks from here, there's the Justice for January 6th sign on the house. And I have to ask.

What do you think that experience of eventually speaking to you, you talk about this in the podcast, and their experience of living in D.C., what do you think that's been like for them? Because they're still living there. Yeah, like my partner would talk to them a lot about what they were doing every day. And it was always like they're going to the Hill, they're going to the Supreme Court. I mean, they learned the inner workings of the D.C. government themselves.

more than I did. And I've lived here, you know, for a couple of decades. So, so part of it was just an education. Then they'd be surprised by normal city stuff, like heartbroken by homeless people, like why are there homeless people in the street? So they have a little bit of that, but they barely lived here. Like they did their work. They, I wouldn't say they went to a single restaurant, went to a movie. What they did was go to the DC jail every single night and

go to some hearing during the day. And that was the extent of their existence, except that they went to a tiny black church in our neighborhood across the street from them. That's like their one interaction with D.C., interestingly. And you mentioned that your neighbors are out now. They've got a big flag in front of their house. Do you think that's because Trump won the election?

I think it's one because Trump won the election. And I think it's two because we did this podcast about them that all our neighbors listen to. So it allowed them to, you know, come out of their shell a little bit. Not that they were in their shell, but, you know, they were trying not to make trouble. And now I think they're like, we're here.

we're not queer, whatever, finish the sentence. We're here and get over it. You know, January 6th is today. They put up the sign a few days ago, and I think they want people to pass by and remember their version of January 6th. Were you living in D.C. on January 6th? Yes, I was. Did speaking with your neighbors change in any way how you saw that day?

No, I would say all that happened was my brain broke because we lived it. We saw it. I live not far from the Capitol. I biked by that day. I mean, it was like living in a different city. Like there were barricades everywhere. We watched it on TV. You heard congressmen screaming.

talking about their experiences and being barricaded and being under desks. I mean, it was real chaos. And so it was very visceral for those of us who lived in D.C. So I say my brain broke because it was like going deeper and deeper into a world of people who were actively, in the course of these four years, rewriting what I knew in my bones to be true and

And simultaneously accepting them as humans and neighbors, and particularly Ashley Babbitt's mother because her daughter died. So it's not that one counteracted the other. You just kind of had to open up your brain to have both of those realities at the same time. Now, I will say going to the January 6th trials has been an interesting experience, which I have done. Because watching people who, for the most part, have not had any experience with the justice system before,

you know, go through federal court where in general it tends to be stricter, sentences are harsher. And at the same time watching Donald Trump basically not be punished, the opposite. So that's been an interesting experience. That has changed my mind a little bit. You mentioned Ashley Babbitt's mother, Mickey Withoft. How would you describe your relationship with her and with Nicole Reffet, who I mentioned earlier, her husband is one of the first people who were sentenced for crimes that took place on January 6th?

Well, in the podcast, which is called We Live Here Now, I would say my partner, Lauren Ober, who is my partner in life, but also my co-host in this podcast and a journalist, we have different relationships with those guys. And I would say she has a good and close relationship with them. Like, they'll still text. They'll see how each other is doing. Like, she really did get to know them in this deep and complicated way. I remained a little bit suspicious.

I felt bad. You know, losing a child is just an unbelievable tragedy. But it's just like my skin with the revisionist history was a lot for me to take. It was just like a lot for me to see day after day people saying things that you just know are not true. Like, it's just hard to take.

You did all of your reporting before Trump won the election. As we get closer to his inauguration, what do the people in the Justice for January 6th movement think is going to happen when Trump returns to office? They absolutely think that he will pardon all of them. They absolutely will. They're already, you know, on social media issuing threats like he there's just no line. There's nobody he can't pardon. I mean, the movement is pretty strong and they've met.

with Trump over the years. I mean, they've had meetings at Mar-a-Lago. He hasn't made explicit promises. The way he's put it is case by case basis. But I think their expectation is that if it is case by case basis, there are only like two or three people who wouldn't pardon the people who got the harshest sentences and who really beat up cops. Other than that, they should all be pardoned. But will the pardons be enough, though? Is that really all the movement wants?

I think that what they want is an accepted, settled understanding that they did the right thing. Like a literal flip of what a lot of people understand to be true. It's not merely that we were overcharged. It's not merely that we didn't do anything bad. We were victims of the deep state. We actually did something noble and heroic. So they want the entire image and vision of that day to be flipped. I think.

I think that that leads to my last question, which is how do you think January 6th will be viewed in the future? And do you think that Trump's victory signifies that that kind of revisionist history is winning with some people?

I really, really struggle with this because we saw this happen with the lost cause narrative. Now, how do people remember the Civil War differently? Like, it just changes over time. Like, the statues went up. They were there for decades and decades. You know, a few years ago, they came down. Like, you go to Richmond now, and a lot of those statues aren't there anymore. I think January 6th is going to be a struggle for a really long time. I think the big difference in a social media age is...

is that people say things in a trolly way that they don't necessarily believe. Do they actually believe what happened on January 6th happened the way they say it? It's very hard to tell. It's just very hard to tell if people are being serious and they actually believe what they say happened. So I don't know what that adds up to in the future. We're kind of in a new way of dealing with facts and making history.

Hannah, thank you so much for joining me. Yeah, thank you so much. That was my conversation with Hannah Rosen. She's co-host of the Atlantic's narrative podcast, We Live Here Now, about the Justice for January 6th movement. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads.

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We love a good surprise, especially the kind that doesn't come with a breaking news alert. So we love the new mystery bags at the Crooked store. So here's how it works. Just choose the 10, 15 or $20 tier, select your t-shirt size and let the Crooked team do the rest. They'll send you a selection of merch in your size. Mystery bags are a great way to grab some new merch for less and add some much needed fun to your life. Just head to crooked.com slash store to spice up your order with a mystery bag.

And now, the news. Headlines. Today we want to focus on filling in some of the gaps and giving you a greater understanding of the planning that went into this horrible attack by Shansud bin Jabbar. At a press conference Sunday, FBI Special Agent Lionel Murthel released new details about the January 1st terrorist attack in New Orleans.

Chamsud Din Jabbar drove his car into a crowd of people on Bourbon Street in the city's historic French Quarter in the early hours of New Year's Day. 14 people were killed and dozens of others were injured. Jabbar was an army veteran who had reportedly posted his support for ISIS on social media and had an ISIS flag on his truck during the attack. Authorities found guns and improvised explosive devices in the vehicle and throughout the French Quarter. Jabbar died in a shootout with police after injuring two officers. Investigators say they believe he acted alone.

During the press conference, Murthel said Jabbar visited New Orleans in October of last year to plan the attack. During that time, Jabbar, using meta glasses, recorded a video as he rode through the French Quarter on a bicycle. Murthel said Jabbar was wearing the meta glasses during the attack as well, but was not recording or live streaming.

The White House says President Biden is visiting New Orleans today to, quote, grieve with the families and communities affected by the attack. He'll be joined by First Lady Jill Biden. They'll meet with local politicians and families of the victims.

New York Justice Juan Marchand upheld Donald Trump's felony conviction in his hush money case. And he set a sentencing date for January 10th, just a week and a half before Trump will be sworn in for his second term as president. But Marchand said in a written decision Thursday that Trump won't see any jail time. The statement says the sentence will be a, quote, unconditional discharge, which means the conviction will stand, but there won't be any penalties of jail, fines or probation. Trump responded on Truth Social, saying the decision is, quote, nothing but a rigged charade.

Marchand says his decision is an attempt to strike a tricky balance between allowing Trump to do his job as president, the U.S. Supreme Court's July ruling on presidential immunity, and the public's expectation that nobody should be above the law.

President Biden is keeping busy in the final days of his term. On Sunday, Biden signed the Social Security Fairness Act. The bipartisan legislation rescinds two provisions that shrunk benefits for certain public workers. The new law is meant to boost Social Security payments for nearly 3 million people, including public workers like teachers, firefighters, and police officers.

On Saturday, Biden named 19 recipients of the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Let's listen to part of Biden's speech at the White House. "I have the honor of bestowing the Medal of Freedom on our nation's highest civilian honor on a group of extraordinary, truly extraordinary people who gave their sacred effort, their sacred effort to shape the culture and the cause of America."

Those honored included Bono, Hillary Clinton, Jane Goodall, Magic Johnson, Ralph Lauren, George Soros, and Anna Wintour. And on Friday, Biden followed through on a long-held promise to block a Japanese company from buying the U.S. steel company. The $14 billion acquisition of U.S. steel by Nippon Steel was announced a year ago. Biden used his executive authority to block the deal, sidestepping advice from top aides.

Funeral services for former President Jimmy Carter started Saturday outside his family's farm in Plains, Georgia, where a farm bell rang 39 times in tribute to the 39th president. His body was then moved to the Carter Presidential Center in Atlanta, where it will lie in repose until Tuesday morning before being transferred to D.C. for a capital service. On Thursday, President Biden is expected to deliver a eulogy at Carter's state funeral. Carter will return to Georgia to be laid to rest in his hometown.

Born in 1924 in Georgia, Carter served seven years in the Navy before returning home to run his family's peanut farm. He entered politics as a Democrat in the 60s and later became Georgia's governor. And in 1976, he won the presidency after defeating incumbent Republican Gerald Ford. Carter's administration brokered the historic peace treaty between Israel and Egypt, as well as the 1977 Panama Canal Treaty.

In his farewell speech in 1981, Carter said, quote, struggle for human rights overrides all differences of color or nation or language. The love of liberty is a common blood that flows in our American veins.

Carter was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002 for his, quote, untiring effort to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts, to advance democracy and human rights. Jimmy Carter died on December 29th at 100 years old. And that's the news. One more thing.

It feels weird to me to say that four years ago today, protesters' intent on stopping Congress from certifying Biden's win in the 2020 presidential election stormed the Capitol. Because it seems like barely any time has passed at all. As we talked about earlier, January 6th protesters are still demanding pardons and arguing what they did that day wasn't just understandable, but good. More than 170 police officers were assaulted by protesters that day.

And the ripple effects of January 6th on the lives of those officers who came to work that day are still ongoing. Among those officers was Michael Fanone. When he testified before the House Select Committee on the January 6th attack in July of 2021, he talked about what he survived that day. At one point, I came face to face with an attacker who repeatedly lunged for me and attempted to remove my firearm. I heard chanting from some in the crowd, get his gun and kill him with his own gun.

Fanon retired from the police force in 2021. I talked to him about what he saw that day and what lessons, if any, he learned from January 6th.

Michael, thank you so much for being here. Of course. I want to start off by talking about your experience of the insurrection. What was it like to watch all of this unfold, especially, and this is something that really gets me, so many of the rioters would think of themselves as being pro-law enforcement and supposedly ideologically supportive of law enforcement. But on that day, they were trying to kill you.

Yeah, first, let me address that. Nobody's pro-law enforcement. I mean, shit, even police officers aren't pro-law enforcement. Nobody likes getting stopped. Nobody likes getting a ticket. Nobody likes having interactions with the police. That's just the way that it is. And, you know, on that day, those individuals didn't like the police standing in the way of them interrupting Congress's attempt to certify a free and fair election.

It's been four years, and now Trump is coming back to the White House and all feels a little bit surreal. Do you think that this kind of thing could happen again? Well, Trump won. And I mean, you know, while we did see violence in the aftermath of Trump's inauguration, the first go-round, you know, I didn't see any attempts to subvert democracy or prevent Congress from certifying the election like we did last

in 2020. I mean, I believe that we're going to continue to see violence in this country just because it has become the norm. Our politics now are violent. We have elected officials in our government who use violent rhetoric to inspire their supporters to commit these acts to suppress the vote.

and to scare their detractors into submission. Getting back to D.C., do you think Capitol Police and D.C.'s Metropolitan Police Department are more prepared for a large riot and political violence now than they were four years ago? And what does that kind of preparation even look like?

I don't have a clue. I would hope that they were more prepared than they were four years ago. That being said, you know, there is some truth in the fact that there's not a whole lot that you can do to prevent tens of thousands of people from storming a building, you know, short of using some extreme levels of violence that are just not appropriate for American law enforcement. Are there any lessons that you take away from what happened that day?

And there are so many lessons. I don't know if we could fit them into this interview. I mean, the biggest lesson that I take from this is that, you know, I was a believer in American exceptionalism.

prior to January 6, 2021. And if there's one thing that the last four years have taught me is that America is not an exceptional country. We are susceptible to the same pitfalls that everyone else has experienced in their much older forms of democracy. We have some great people in this country who are

deeply dedicated to the rule of law, to our Constitution, to the rights that our founding fathers intended for us to enjoy. But there's a lot that are, you know, only interested in themselves, in their own careers, in making money. And, you know, unfortunately, I think that most of all, we have too many Americans who are completely indifferent to

And to me, that indifference has risen to a level of cowardice. There's just too many cowards in America, too many cowards, too many people that are not willing to stand up and speak out. And, you know, we've seen in history time and time again what happens when that cowardice becomes the main characteristic of a people. Michael, thank you so much for joining me. Yes, ma'am. Thank you for having me.

That was my conversation with Michael Fanone, former Metropolitan Police Officer for the District of Columbia.

That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, resolve to listen to Water Day every day, and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading, not just about how New Year's resolutions could be for really anything, like fun things, like listening to podcasts, or eating more cereal, like me, Water Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at crooked.com slash subscribe. I'm Jane Koston, and resolve to listen to me more often.

What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Raven Yamamoto. Our producer is Michelle Eloy. We have production help today from Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, and Julia Clare. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.

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