Does nature deserve rights - and song credits?
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This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hi everyone, I'm Natalia Jimenez and this is What in the World from the BBC World Service. Let's have a listen to this song. Between the rhythms and the vocals, I mean, it's sure to catch your ear.

But I'm going to ask you to listen just a little bit closer. You can just about make out the birds. There's some crickets in there too. It's like a symphony of nature almost. What you're hearing is all part of a recently released track called Song of the Cedars. And the name is actually a nod to what makes it so unique.

Because this isn't your usual soundtrack with your usual artists. When you look at the song's credits, there is actually what many may consider kind of an unusual addition.

It's actually a forest, or more specifically, Los Cedros Forest in Ecuador, the cedars, like I mentioned. For the environmentalists who've recorded these sounds, they believe that beyond just existing as a forest, it also creates, just like people do. And what they want is for this forest to be considered an artist just like them.

And that kind of lays the foundation for this episode. We're going to be delving into the movement to give nature personhood. And so we're going to be asking the big questions. What is it and whether or not this is going to make a difference? We'll speak to an artist who will tell us why he wanted to compensate nature for using its sounds. And maybe we should say voice. ♪

But let's backtrack a little bit. The whole idea started just in the past few decades when, in 2008, Ecuador actually changed its constitution, essentially giving these ecosystems rights like the ones you and me have, so to exist and persist. To help break this all down for us, we have my colleague here, Georgina Ranard. She's a climate and science reporter at the BBC. Georgina, first of all, thank you so much for being here with us. Hi, Natalia. Hi.

You are clearly the expert, so I'm going to get right into it. I think it's fair to assume that nature having personhood is something that's probably fairly new to a lot of us. I know it's new to me. So I'm going to ask you the big question. What is the point of all of this? How does personhood actually help the forest?

Actually, the first time I heard about this was at a party and I was talking to a lawyer and he told me that he wanted to give a river near his house personhood. And I was like, what? That doesn't make any sense to me. How can that be a thing?

And actually we had a bit of an argument over it and he wasn't very happy by the end. But then I went away and I learned about it. And it's basically the idea that nature should have legal rights the same way as people or companies have rights and that those should be protected. And it's not only that they have the rights, but they deserve them. So you mentioned a forest.

So it's the idea that it has the inherent right to exist and grow and that any threats to its existence, like cutting it down or if it's an animal killing it or a river polluting it, that that has legal consequences if you do those things.

Some of it is informed by cultural beliefs, for example, from some indigenous communities in the Americas, in the Pacific, in Australasia, who believe that nature inherently has the same rights as humans. And that's more of a spiritual belief. Right. And I think this is all part of this broader movement that's officially being called the Rights of Nature movement. Can you maybe talk us through that a little bit?

Yeah, so this is a growing idea in global kind of nature and climate movements that, because we know, right, that nature and biodiversity are under immense threat. There's huge numbers of species at threat from extinction. So it's the idea that we're facing this incredible crisis in nature and how can that be protected? And one idea is that the law could be part of that.

that. And there are countries that have managed to pass these laws. So Ecuador is one, Bolivia, India, New Zealand.

Ecuador is a really interesting example. In 2008, they were the first country to create rights in their constitution for the idea that nature has personhood. That's partly, you know, Ecuador is a very biodiverse country. It also has a very strong indigenous history and strong indigenous culture. And, you know, these groups of people have a very close relationship with nature. And they were really some of the loudest voices calling for that.

It was applied for the first time in 2011, that law, when a section of the Vilcabamba River was damaged during road construction. And then a couple sued using that law to say, you know, the inherent rights of the river have been alienated by this construction. And they did win the case, but actually, in effect, not much has been done to restore that section of the river. And there are quite a few other examples where...

the right has been put into law, it's sort of been successfully placed in the law, but then how it's actually being enforced is a little trickier.

Right. I mean, Ecuador clearly is being considered kind of like a trailblazer in the movement, right? I mean, it seems like it. And I know that it obviously isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Let's be real here. There has to be some challenges. So the tension that comes with dealing with industries like mining, for example, how is Ecuador actually handling that? And do you think that maybe other countries could learn from their experience, for example? Yeah.

Absolutely. So you've hit the nail on the head. It's this tension between the right of nature and the desire by people to protect biodiversity, to protect a mountain or a river or a species or a forest.

and then economic development or growth. And then in Ecuador, that's been really hard to enforce. So even while the forests or rivers have been given this protected status and the legal status, mining's continued. So the constitution says that you have to protect a river, but then under the law, the mining companies also have the right to access water. And I think that kind of gets to the heart of the issue, which is...

How do you balance all of those different priorities? And I think a lot of lawyers, a lot of courts and judges still don't really accept the idea that a tree could have the same rights as a person or a company. A lot of our law is, it comes from a very like human centric or Eurocentric way of thinking.

Whereas what this law says is that actually nature and trees and species should be at the center of our world. And then it really is quite a big change in how you think. And I think that means that although these ideas have been agreed to in principle, actually putting them into practice is quite hard. Should we talk about the New Zealand example? I think that's quite an interesting one. I actually was just going to ask you about it. They basically gave rights to a river, right? Yes.

Yeah, exactly. So this river is the Whanganui River and it goes, it starts in the mountains, it comes out to the sea, but it's really important to Maori people. They have this saying that the river is them and they are the river.

It was depleted by logging and poor farming practices. A lot of it has been eroded. And then finally, in 2017, the Wanganui River was given legal status. And that basically means that if someone harms or abuses the river under the law, it's the same as harming Maori people or humans because they're basically one and the same. I'm wondering, is this...

gaining traction. Is this a global thing or is this still kind of rare in its infancy of sorts? What do you think? Yeah, absolutely. I think it is a growing idea. There are some more examples. So in India, they gave the rights to the Ganges River, although it was later overridden. Bolivia has also passed similar laws to Ecuador and even in the US, actually. So in Santa Monica, this town in California,

They passed a law to give nature some rights in terms of protecting it from development, urban construction. I love those examples because, funnily enough, I had a similar experience to you where I was talking to a lawyer yesterday at dinner and she was like, no, no, no, this is not happening in the US. I'm like...

It is. It's definitely happening in our backyard. So it's incredible to see that it's happening all around us, but we're just not kind of tuned into it just yet. It's gaining traction right now as we speak. ♪

We'll come back to Georgina in just a minute, but I'm going to switch gears for a little bit. Did you know that there are artists and musicians who actually give a part of their royalties to nature? Like, for example, Sounds Right. It's a global initiative where artists who use nature sounds in their songs are able to give a part of their royalties to nature.

are encouraged to actually redirect those royalties to help conserve and protect nature. And Bill Salonga, a.k.a. Blinky Bill, who's a DJ from Nairobi, explained to us why he's involved. From the Sounds Right library, I got sounds of birds that are pretty much very common.

in Africa, and working on this I found out that one of the birds that I used is called, it's a version of a dove. I hear it every morning when I'm waking up, it's like what wakes me up. There's also a lot of the sounds of the Kenyan dusk, which I found in their library. And I felt like, because this is such a global project, it's also a way to also pay tribute to my home, Kenya.

and the sounds of an elephant, like all these sounds that are in nature that we hear almost all the time. I can literally even hear them right now at my house. So I incorporated them in the music. And so that's how nature became a collaborator for me on this track.

I think that was really on my mind over the past few months was like where I live is close to where I went to school in high school. And it's normally always really cold. And Kenya is very temperate.

But I think in January, January and February, it became so crazy hot that I had to buy a fan. And like I was sleeping with a fan on. That's never happened in my life. I've never experienced it. So I became very aware of the fact that things are changing. Like there's something that's happening with the climate that is not normal.

It's not normal, you know? And so I was wondering, like, how do I become a part of a movement that is telling people that something's happening and we need to do better to take care of our environment? So nature becomes, like, a really good way to access, like, some of the more complex conversations, but as a starting point, where you just, like, I like the sound of rain or I like the sound of rain.

the trees moving in the wind, that makes you connect to it in such a way that, okay, the next level is I don't want these sounds to die out. So when someone talks about, tells you about, oh, they need to be protected, it's not such a far off thought for you. This is one of the ways in which we can make the world better. And I feel like that's one thing that a lot of artists really want to do is to make music

the world a better place to live in. So Georgina, here's what I'm really curious about. What about when people try to apply these rights and it doesn't work? Like, have there been times when it got maybe like rejected or overruled? What happens in those scenarios? I think the reality is the enforcement is really difficult. You can win the right to it in theory and the court can rule that the

the environment or the species or the habitat should be protected. But then actually stopping the activity, the damage activity is really hard to do. And that's, I think that's because you need a lot of money to do that. You need a strong government, a strong local government. Often these environmental groups or individuals have much less power and money to do that. Lots of companies or individuals want to use those natural resources because they generate money and they generate, they can generate jobs.

And that is a really powerful idea. And the idea of economic growth, of course, almost everyone wants that. So if someone asked you, is this actually working? Is this more than symbolic? What would you say, given all those examples you just gave me? Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question. I think...

I think it's probably influential in terms of changing how people think about nature. And it's another tool in the toolbox. But at the moment, I don't think it's been proven to kind of completely... It's not a magic wand and it doesn't mean, OK, this forest now has legal status, so no one is ever going to...

do any logging there, they're never going to build a new road. Because unfortunately, there are so many other competing interests. And I think probably in order for it to be successful, you need an incredibly powerful advocate, you need a court that really backs it or a state or a government that really, really believe in it, and they'll invest all of their time and money in actually holding up that right. And I think at the moment, we don't have that

But it is a kind of growing idea. It's quite new. And, you know, I think if we look at how human rights have developed or rights for different communities over time, it does take a really long time. So maybe I'm an optimist, but I think I would say, you know, in 10 or 20 years, maybe this will be more of an effective tool. This has been a fascinating conversation. I feel like I've learned so much. Thank you so much for joining us and chatting with me about this, Georgina. Thank you, Natalia. It's been great.

As we wrap this up, I think my biggest takeaway is that Los Cedros is more than just a forest. It's part of a bigger call to action.

And I think it's also asking us to rethink how we see nature, not as something we own, but maybe as a partner, as a creator, and in this case, as a voice. Because as we look towards the future and its many challenges, if nature is seen as our equal, we might be forced to change how we see the relationship we have with it altogether. ♪

Thank you so much for listening to What in the World from the BBC World Service. I'm Natalia Jimenez. Bye, everyone. Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by.

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