Esther Calling - Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible?
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In this following session, we discuss sexual assault. And I want you to know this before you listen. My partner and I have been together for about four years now. And he's been the greatest partner I could have ever asked for. But our dilemma is sexually. If he's going to try and turn me on, I want...

drops of water fed to me until I am like desperately grabbing at the bottle to drink mouthfuls of water. And more importantly, I want that powerful feeling back that I'd had with past partners. But what our sexual experience has been since we started dating is like I'm getting gulping streams of water.

that he's feeding me, like he's trying to turn me on. And then that stream of water becomes, you know, so much water that I can't breathe. And then also with the added pressure to drink the water. His persistence is how we got together initially, but sexually it just is not a turn on for me. And I've discussed this with him and his response has been,

you know, well, I want to do what's gonna turn you on and we'll do that as long as it takes. But when we try him backing off of me completely or touching me without the pressure of asking me for sex,

We've only been able to do that for about a week or a week and a half before my partner becomes cold and kind of turns away from me. So then I just, you know, give in to appease him. And I really, truly hate the feeling of giving in out of obligation rather than because I truly want to.

The longer our relationship progresses or like moves forward, the more I ask myself, are we just too sexually incompatible? Or am I just too rigid in my sexual script and what in my mind and what has worked in the past that turns me on? Am I just too like adherent to that?

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So I think what I would like to ask you, just for me to understand better, is two things. Are you saying I had a way...

of getting turned on that was about being in charge, pursuing someone who was less interested. And by turning them on, it ignited me. So that's a certain script, erotic script that I have that I know has often worked well for me. Being in the reverse position now, I don't like it.

And then I want to understand more about that. And then the second question is, he seems to say to you, I want to do things that you enjoy. My goal is not just to impose something on you and for you to just comply. So in that sense, you'll have a good understanding and a good vibe. But when he does change his tune and he gives you the droplets,

he starts to get anxious that the droplets will never amount to more than droplets. Yes, to both of the questions. Let's go in there a little bit. Because your question about are we just incompatible, I don't think this is about an incompatibility of... I mean, you have different sexual scripts, you have different turn-ons, you have different rhythms, right?

But that is not what makes it incompatible. Sometimes, you know, two musicians can play very differently, but it's about how they attune to each other. The compatibility is an attunement and a liking. Definitely a liking and preferences go in there. But there's primarily it's how do we find a groove that allows us to play together, to improvise together together.

even though we may have completely different ways of playing. That doesn't mean that there is not sometimes real incompatibility, but that's not, as a starting point, it's not what I am hearing. Tell me more about, because you said one other thing, that his insistence actually is what brought us together. So there's different experiences that you have had with his insistence, forcefulness, initiative. What other words would you use?

Yeah, persistence. Like he's the one pursuing. Is he your age? Is he older, younger? He's a little bit older than me. He's about four years older than me. Okay. And even then I wasn't really like into it. I don't like, I like to be the pursuer usually. And he is very much, he also likes to be the pursuer. And when I am the pursuer,

What is it about it? The power of it. Like, I feel powerful. I feel like I'm doing something that not only pleases me, but pleases my partner. But also, would it be the case to say, when I'm in charge, I know that I do what I want? Yes. When you are in charge, I'm grappling with doing what you want. Yes. And so doing what I want starts by saying no. Yeah, exactly.

Okay. All right. That's like the dynamic that we have currently. This is not about incompatibility. That's what I was trying to say. If I have to follow you and I have to subject myself to your will, then I end up doing what you want and I have a loss of autonomy and that comes with a loss of desire. Yeah, completely. And so what happens when

It gets reversed. What happens to him when you basically take his hand and you say, here's how we're going to do this? And you guide him in as slow and as deliberate a way as you want. But he's with a woman who is owning her desires. I mean, that in itself can be a real turn on as well. When I initiate and I'm the one sort of like in the control seat or in the driver's seat, it works. Works means what?

So he is into it too. Like he gets hard and we have sex and it's more enjoyable, I think. Because it's enjoyable to me, it's more enjoyable to him too. And while we've talked about it, he said like it was a different experience when I'm in the driver's seat versus when he is. The driver's seat has to do with who initiates, with the rhythm, right?

With the power dynamic? With what? With the who initiates and the rhythm of it. Usually I prefer it to be slower, like more drawn out. Like I need it to be, I need to fantasize and like for it to be slower and stuff like that. And so when I am in control of the pace of it and when I initiate it,

It feels better to me. And I'm more into it and more like reactive. And the slow is about just the beat, the rhythm, or the slow is about the lack of deliberateness. Slow allows you not to know instantly what this is supposed to be. And so it can be more emerging and it kind of takes you rather than you know exactly what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah.

The slowness allows me to like slip into a different headspace. And then it just like I'm doing kind of whatever I feel like in that moment. I'm not really like I'm going to do I'm going to kiss him and then I'm going to like go down on him and then we're going to have sex. It's there's no like order to anything. So what happens when you try to say to him without words even, but when you change the beat?

If he starts, can you still adjust a bit or is it the gear is set and off we go? I don't think I've ever tried to like slow it down when he's initiated. Okay. Why not? I think because like when he initiates, it feels like my body tenses and my danger signals start to go off.

And then at that point, I'm not even in an erotic mind. I'm like survival mode. In a protective mind. Yeah. Tell me more. I have a history of sexual trauma that really affects my mind. I can rationalize it, but my body still feels it. So in my mind, I can tell myself...

I'm safe. I'm not with that person. This is a different person. I'm okay. Like, it's fine. When I go into that mode and I'm telling myself, like, I'm safe, I'm okay, letting it happen, like, letting him touch me,

It takes a little bit for me to relax and then to be able to slip into my erotic mind. I don't think I verbalized it in the moment. Like I need time. It's always been like I'm telling myself in my own head, but I'm not saying it out loud. And the time that I need for my body to let go isn't fast enough to where he likes, like for his tempo. Does he know this?

He knows about the assault. Yes. But does he know there's something about his being in charge that brings back the memory of being overpowered, of doing something unwanted? It's anything but erotic. It's about violence, not about sex. And so you need to give yourself signals.

to tell you, I'm not in danger. This is about pleasure and about connection. But it takes a moment. When you're in charge, it's faster, it's easier because you learn that it's a beautiful thing you did. You turned it upside down. You were able to connect erotically with yourself by flipping the power dynamic. It's great. But when he takes charge...

That's not so easy for you to do. And so it needs cues that you give yourself, to yourself, to your body, to your sensations. And that's not just, I need time because I like it slower. It actually has very little to do with slower, because when you're in charge, it can be very fast. There's something in the switch of the power dynamic, and in the I want versus you want and I have to do what you want, and I have no say.

I have no sovereignty. I have no autonomy. And therefore, of course, I have no desire. I can tap into my desire when I am in charge because when I'm in charge, I'm not just in charge, but I'm in touch with my wanting. And my wanting is my freedom. Your wanting is my prison. Yeah. I don't think I've ever articulated it like that to him. And to yourself? Yes.

Very recently, like within the last couple of days, like I've come to the realization that him coming on to me feels like an obligation. And it reminds me of the past. It's less of an obligation, but it's also there's something assaultive about it.

Yes. And the reassuring yourself that this is safe and I am here with my boyfriend is in order to diminish the assaultiveness to something that is more caring. I mean, he loves you. He wants you. What happened two days ago?

I've just been thinking about my submission and like just been thinking about it and really like checking in with myself and feeling how my body reacts to what I'm thinking. And I felt like recently I felt an immense amount of like relief. Like I'm like, this is what it is. How long ago was it?

Years ago. It's been like maybe 10 to 15. Because I've been assaulted at different periods of my life. And so... But the last time was about 15 years ago. Do you think he would understand? I would love for him to be here with you, by the way. I know, yeah. Does he know you're here? He does. This has been an issue for like years now. And so...

We've tried different things and I've tried different things on my own. I think when I submitted it initially, I was feeling like this is my problem to solve. I mean, I wouldn't use that verb, but in a beautiful way, you actually solved it. You found a way to connect to your erotic self by flipping the dynamic. But something happens to you that is unwanted sometimes.

when he comes on, and especially when he comes on, what you call fast is also forceful somewhat. It doesn't leave you much room for negotiation. It feels that that turns it into an obligation. You know, and it's very fast and subtle and physical. This is not stuff people articulate in words. It's one hand this way versus that way. And that instantly triggers you to use an overword word, but here it actually fits. And

and it brings back, you know, submission is no longer pleasurable, it becomes coercive. It becomes reminiscent, and there is nothing of a turn on there. And so the question is, this is not, I like it slow and I like the water droplets. The water droplets are in the service of something. And at this point, he may think it's a matter of, I like it this way, she likes it that way. That's not what this is about. This is not about preferences here.

This is about how you stay connected to your pleasure and permission and sexuality versus being sucked into a trauma vortex. I don't think I've said it that way to him. Like when I realized what was happening for myself, I didn't say anything to him. But that's what happened two days ago or that's, you know, before?

No, not before. Two days ago. I know. I'm glad we talked today. You know, because it takes a moment. Part of how you say it to him and how he hears it and receives it will be a very central part of your erotic intimacy. Because you're with a good guy who wants you to feel good. And if he understands why he needs to do certain things differently, it'll be an act of love.

But you didn't understand it and you didn't necessarily connect the dots. And neither, of course, has he right now. But he will. He's a good guy. He loves me and wants for this to be a mutual thing. In order for us to connect well sexually, we have to create little practices, rituals, scripts that allow me to bypass a certain kind of

neuroplasticity, you know, a kind of trigger points so that I can remember that I can stay in the sexual zone and not veer into the trauma zone. Yeah. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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We just started a new year and that often comes along with starting new things, including listening to new podcasts. So if you're new here or you haven't been with me for a while, welcome back to my office.

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I have asked him for us to take sort of like sex off of the table for now. But still be intimate, like still be kissing and touching and cuddling without a pressure of sex. And? And it sort of became like he was okay with it. He said, yeah, that's what he like, if that's what it takes, then yes.

But he also has sexual needs. And I don't know how long it's going to take for me to feel safe with him being in the driver's seat. I don't know. I suggested maybe we open the relationship on his part so that he can have his sexual needs, like the physical act of sex, taken care of for him while we work on this. And...

We're kind of, that's where we've paused. But that's all without understanding why and what for. That was more kind of a response to the symptoms rather than a response to the causes. So everything changes once you put it in context. Maybe you'll discover a play together, a fantasy together in which you're in charge of his getting in charge. Yeah.

You drive the driver. Or this is for the two of you to be sexually creative together in a way that is healing. That's really in a different perspective than even where I was like thinking. Because I even in my own mind or like my own realization was like,

His touches were creating a sense of, like, my danger signal was going. And so I needed, like, my focus was I needed to start to get used to and feel safe with his touches, with him being in the driver's seat. Right. For example, tell me something he does that instantly tenses you. It's only when he's touching, like, my breasts or my, like, vulva. Mm-hmm.

So imagine that you take the hand. While he's on you, you take his hand and you actually lift it. You say, let me. And then you bring it gradually to your neck, to your shoulder, to your arm. And slowly, if you want to, you bring it to your breast. But you're bringing his hand. That's driving the driver.

It goes to your vulva, you take his hand, you take his dick, whatever it is, and you guide it in a way that is comfortable, safe, and pleasurable to you. Maybe it first needs to go to your hair, to your head, to your ear, to your neck, to your nape, and only then slowly, maybe, but it's not because you remove yourself that you're going to suddenly learn to tolerate it.

It's because you play with touch and you make the touch become the touch that you can welcome. There's not one way, you know, but this is the one that I think of as we speak today. How does that sound to you? Can you visualize it when I describe it? I can. Yeah, like when you were describing it, I was like in my head picturing it. And like that feels my body doesn't react the same way. Like it feels good.

How so? How do you know when it's good? Because you know when it's not. When it's good, I'm not even like, I'm very not in my mind. I'm very in my body. Like I'm feeling everything and it feels good. Like there's tingling and like warm and swirling and like, yeah, tingling.

So imagine you take his hand and you don't even touch, you hover. It's what my friend Jaya calls energetic touch. You just hover over it very, very, very gently. Imagine that your hand is just touching the hair that's on your arm, but you can do it to him. The idea is you go from energetic touch to affectionate touch.

to sexual touch, and to kinky touch. And you explore together which one of these four blueprints appeal to you. And sometimes you have more than one, sometimes you're a shapeshifter, sometimes you have a preference for one, but just the fact that you can even hover without putting his hand on you, but you feel the sensation of it as if it was touching you, but it doesn't because it's the energy that reaches you. And that he...

sees you lead him to give you exactly what you want at that moment. I see your eyes turning in front of me. So I'm going to let you finish the imagery. Yeah, it's just like discovering or like playing with different things and seeing what feels good. And I'm in control of that.

Like guiding him. You can do it with him too. You can go in both directions as well. You can go into your closet and take out scarves and brushes and feathers and silk and all kinds of things and explore touch, literally. But the point is you will be driving the driver. It doesn't matter what thing you use. It's that you'll be in a dialogue with what makes you feel good about

rather than in an avoidance of what feels painful. Yeah, we played around with sensate touching, like progressively touching each other. And that was really nice, but it was just like physical touch, not really like the different levels that you described. And yeah, I would be like way more interested in

playing around more with that. I like the way that you use the word play because it involves curiosity, exploration, discovery, novelty, and it's fun. I mean, usually you don't play and suffer. So if you say, I want to play differently with you, I want to explore a whole bunch of things, I have a sense that he will follow you.

Yeah, he's always been open to like trying new things with me and even suggesting things. So yeah, I have no doubt that he would be open. How did he respond to you when you told him about the assaults? It was like a while ago. It was like a couple years into dating that I disclosed. And he was very warm, I remember. Like I don't remember exactly what he said, but I remember how he made me feel. That's more important. Yeah.

He made me feel very safe and like it was a relief. He accepts me. Did you worry about that? Sometimes. Not now. Like I was more worried about that when we were first dating. But now I feel like I can tell him anything. Like I feel very secure. That's why it seems to me that...

Rather than trying to push this thing away or to just address the symptoms and the discomforts together to join into erotic healing. Sex can be deeply wounding and sex can be deeply healing. Yeah, I felt that very acutely. Like that I've been deeply wounded, but I've also felt pain.

Like a sense of healing, not completely, but I felt like I was taking my power back. And that felt healing. With him or before him? Before him. In many ways, I often say there is no greater power than voluntary surrender. But the word voluntary is in capital letters. Yeah, I felt that in my chest. Your chest just touched my chest.

Like willingly letting go. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Hungry Root.

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It's January 6th and Congress met today at 1 p.m. to certify Donald Trump as the winner of the 2024 election. Four years ago, you may recall, Congress was meant to do the same, but the certification was delayed when thousands of Trump supporters marched on the Capitol. The president-elect has said repeatedly, and he told NBC again last month, that he's going to pardon at least some of the insurrectionists. Those people have suffered long and hard.

And there may be some exceptions to it. I have to look. But, you know, if somebody was radical, crazy, there might be some people from Antifa there. I don't know, you know, because those people seem to be in good shape. Whatever happened to Scaffold Man? You had to be there. Antifa was actually not there four years ago, but members of several extremist groups were at the Capitol on Jan. 6th. And today on Explained, we're going to ask, whither American extremism on the eve of a second Trump administration?

Today Explained. Every weekday, wherever you get your podcasts. And you need to explain to him that in some way you need a different ritual of beginning. That when he comes on full force, that there's nothing wrong with it, but it just sends the wrong messages. He's not doing anything off. It clicks in the wrong place. So...

We need to adjust. Our sex is good. It could be better, but we're exploring, we're enjoying, we're connecting. If we start off right. And right means if we start off in a way that does not throw me back. That feels a lot better. Because when we've had discussions about it in the past, like when he's gotten frustrated, when I don't respond the way that I'm not in it,

He has said, it takes you so, like you have to try so hard to respond to me. And in that, it feels like he's taking on, like he feels like there's something wrong with him. Yes, like it's a rejection. Yes. You tell him it's got nothing to do with you. I have. But not just as a statement. There's things that connect in my body differently.

Because of what I experienced. If I get to bypass those, the coast is clear for me. Maybe, I don't know, you send me a note before. That just says, I'm inviting you tonight, today, tomorrow, whatever. But something that doesn't feel like you're forcing yourself on me. That's all. That's all I can't take.

it instantly obliterates me. And you're not doing anything wrong. But we need to adjust this so that we don't derail. And we can explore together six different ways. I'm just drawing a number, you know. A host of different ways for us to just bypass this. Maybe when you come on, I get up and then I go out for five minutes and then I come back. But this time I'm the one coming back and opening the door again.

And we've shifted the whole thing. But we're doing it in playful modes, not in argument ways, but in this play that you described before. Maybe you call me by another name for a minute. Maybe we switch language for a minute. Maybe whatever it is. We put a piece of orange in each other's mouth. Whatever we do. But something that doesn't put me in that position again.

where I have to be alone with myself in my head to try to convince me that what you want is actually something nice. And then I, you know, because none of this turns me on. And I feel guilty because I'm hurting you. And I feel bad because I feel like what's wrong with me. And you feel bad because you feel like what's wrong with you. And this whole thing becomes one negative tool.

It's just like, because we've had this issue for so long and we've always come to this point where we're not having sex and I reject and then he gets mad. Like it's all, it's so cyclical. And you hope he's not going to think about it and he thinks about it and he says, why do you never think about it? And you say, why do you only think about it? Yeah. And he says, when are you ever going to want? And you're going to say, when are you ever going to not think about that? Yeah.

yeah do you have an idea of what you would like as an initiation ritual i don't know i mean if if you take a minute to imagine what would be a different way that keeps you on the pleasure path the only ways i can think about it is the way that's worked for me in the past where i'm the one initiating like i'm the one initiating the kiss kissing his neck going down and like

going down on him and then like I'm holding his penis and like putting it inside. Like I'm the one doing everything. And that's worked for me in the past. I've never explored driving the driver. You like the idea. I do. Yeah. Like that's something I've never even thought to do or like I don't even know how, where to begin. But that's

definitely like piqued my interest because he likes to be in the driver's seat too so it satisfies both of us I think yes because otherwise it it feels too passive for him yeah and it feels like it's on your terms whenever you want yeah and um can he ever feel wanted can he ever want and you respond simply imagine he kisses you and you just take his face and then you redo it

It's very subtle. It's subtle because you actually like the whole experience. What you don't like is when it instantly feels like you're being robbed of your free will. And I want him to feel wanted, too. And I want him to feel like he has permission to want me. Sometimes when you start to sing off-key, you go on singing and it just never feels like you're in the right note.

And sometimes we need somebody who corrects us at the beginning and says, "No, no, lower, higher, this way." And then you start the song again and you sing it flawlessly. Sometimes what happens in sex is that people get used to something and then it becomes their routine, even if they don't like it. And then at first when they just met, they try to adapt to the routine because they like the person and they don't want them to feel bad.

And then as the years unfold and they get more comfortable in the relationship, they start to feel like, shit, the routine doesn't suit me one bit. And we are at that moment where I'm saying, change the routine. There's a bit of adjustment that needs to happen here. It demands good communication, but you've got the trust, you've got the security, you've got the love. I feel a lot better. I feel less, not hopeless, but...

less tense about it so you can go back and bring this to him and then let us know if you want to be here together and we'll because he has a story about it too and then we'll see how we can attune this yeah i feel he would be willing to participate great i look forward to meeting him okay shall we stop here

Yeah, thank you. With this big smile on your face. Yeah, I just, I feel good. He did agree to come in and meet with me alone, which we did. And then we had a brief session, the three of us. So tune in next week to hear his story, the way he experiences their relationship. And then what happened when they both came together.

This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com.

And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.